Anyone waiting for this docuseries? Shiny Happy People

[freesia]

8 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

She’s still on the compound, AFAIK

But I believe she is in her own house now. 

[itsheresomewhere]

39 minutes ago, freesia said:

But I believe she is in her own house now. 

Still on Dad’s property.  So still not on her own and she still is under his authority.

[Faith-manor]

11 hours ago, Ginevra said:

True but isn’t this a fine bit of head-f*ckery? You grew up on TV, lauded (by some) as a paragon of Christian conservative values…defending things like wearing dresses or courtship or whatever (it’s interesting looking back at all the times Jill or Jessa or Jinger were filmed defending these features of their lives).

I just wonder how it plays out. Jill raised half of those littles and Jinger raised half of them. It must be confusing. Do those girls think maybe the dresses-only thing is pointless? Do any of them think they may not want to get married and have kids? 

Jana, Jill, Jessa, and Jinger raised all the kids from Johanna down. At 7 kids, Michelle had a breakdown, the infamous laundry room breakdown, and she was nearly unable to function. He didn't stop getting her pregnant, he just made his little daughters take up the mothering and household work. By the time they were up to 14 kids, Jessa was doing 40 loads of laundry per week. When they were up to 17, they had a bus converted to an RV, and went on vacation. Jana, Jill, Jessa, and Jinger were responsible for packing for the ENTIRE family, and lugging it all out the the r.v. They had to plan all the meals and help JB shop for it. They were responsible to get all the little kids out of bed, dressed, fed, and to the bus on time. The boys did exactly nothing! Jill looked like she was going to fall over trying to carry stuff. Parents totally absent.

From 7 to 19, Michelle kept the babies with her for just six months to nurse, then they were put on formula and turfed to the girls' room where the teens did night duty with the babies. Joy Anna changed her first diaper at four years of age. By five, had a baby assigned to her to carry around and be responsible for.

As each of the older girls got married, the younger ones from Jed and Jeremiah down lost their real mothers. Michelle was nothing more than an incubator. 

jimBob, Michelle, and IBLP sold snake oil, and enslaved their kids to make it look like Shiny Happy People. As far as I am concerned, "Burn it the f@#k down, Jill!!"

The nickname of the eldest girl of the family of ten children 13 and under is "Cinderella". By the time she was 7, she was solely responsible for caring for two infant siblings. Another sistermom.

And I know how it feels and I only had one. My sister called me mom, and our mother " lady" until she was 2.5 years old. I was 13 when she was born. I used to have to call her from college and talk her down from the panic attacks she had from being separated from me and living with an IBLP style father. I used to threaten my father with bringing a posse of college guys home with me to kick his ass if he hit her one.more.time. He stopped when my mother finally pulled her spine out of the dustbin and told him she would divorce him if he did not quit.

As for Josie, those are the words of a blanket trained child who was smacked around every time she left the blanket, every time she cried, every time she didn't jump to attention and immediately obey on command with a smile. Michelle described the process in depth at IBLP conventions, and Jana requested to have Josie on her buddy list. Jill admitted after counting on was canceled that they were required to assist with blanket training for the children on their sister mom list. Therefore, there is every reason to believe that little girl was also hit by Jana. For reference, Josie was born 3 months premature, 25 weeks, and was medically fragile. Blanket training begins at 6 months typically. I try not to think what her mother and sister mom did to her. It is too horrific to contemplate. But it can't be denied, that child showed the classic behaviors of a blanket trained child.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Faith-manor

[Kidlit]

@Faith-manorthanks for sharing your insight.  This is awful.  I'm sorry anyone has to live through this.

[KrissiK]

I binge watched the series this weekend. Pretty horrifying. I really had no idea. I do remember once, though, as a child in the 70’s seeing some of Gothard’s literature in my home. My parents must have gone to one of his seminars, but they didn’t put into practice any of his principles.

[Laura Corin]

11 hours ago, Kidlit said:

I'm watching.  I'm up through episode 3. I am smack dab in the middle Bible Belt and I can see the influences of IBLP-like teaching, even if I had never even heard of it before the Duggars.  
 

I knew a large US family among the missionary community in China that, in retrospect,  is ticking the boxes. Gothard-style clothing, use of PACES etc. They had also changed their surname to escape their past.

They were more welcoming of my godless family than most, recommending homeschool materials,  etc. It's hard to avoid the suspicion  that they were hoping to convert us.

[Ting Tang]

This crosses with that other thread. Both the article and this series came out at the same time—very brilliant on their end. The school districts I’m in have done things such as feed leaded water, fail to properly investigate an alleged sexual assault, but some say that’s the answer. The public once again has the stereotype reinforced. The problem is the cult, not this educational option. How about the training center hours? Little kids working with power tools— Duggars did that early on in their show. TLC knew all of this. They could have  been stopped. They also victimized the kids. 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Ting Tang

[Harriet Vane]

16 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I knew a large US family among the missionary community in China that, in retrospect,  is ticking the boxes. Gothard-style clothing, use of PACES etc. They had also changed their surname to escape their past.

They were more welcoming of my godless family than most, recommending homeschool materials,  etc. It's hard to avoid the suspicion  that they were hoping to convert us.

There is a fine line between two types of people. 

One type approach sharing their faith as salesmen, employing sales tactics intentionally and offering memorized speeches and tallying wins. The other type simply want to share what has made a difference in their life in a generosity of spirit, a sincere hope that what helps me will help you too. 

Those who operate from a sales type perspective tend to make unfair generalizations about those who don’t share the same beliefs. They make those generalizations partially due to training and partially because they struggle to form sincere, reciprocal relationships outside of their own tribe. 

But the second type, imo, really do want sincere bonds of friendship. They will always hope that what they believe will help others, of course, as anyone might do. But my experience with this type of sharer-of-life-philosophy is that there is a sincere interest and a sincere respect even where there is a fundamental disagreement. I also tend to think this type are showing kindness and love to others not as a sales tactic to draw in a target, but rather from an inherent belief that love must guide our thoughts and our actions.

For Christians in this (second) camp, we would say the Bible teaches the principle of love. But I have also known many non-Christians who cherish the belief that being a good human is showing love. The difference, of course, is that the Christian believes in drawing strength/guidance to love from a relationship with God. But we all agree, as I said, that being a good human is showing love.

I have experienced both types from other Christians as well as from those of other faiths. Notably I have also experienced both types most particularly from folks in AA and from social workers within the foster care system—their strong beliefs are not necessarily connected to spiritual faith but rather to beliefs about addiction and abuse/dysfunction patterns. There are some who are just as pushy and disrespectful in proselytizing as any religious zealot. Now that I think about it, my mind also goes towards those who are actually selling something—I experienced this dynamic from a couple selling Amway when my kids were young and from a scattered few who were desperate to get friends to host home showings of various products. Not all small business people operate from this mindset, but I did experience that icky friendship pressure from some.

I say all this because I would like to think your missionary friends were of the second type. Not working a sale. Rather, showing love as they believe they must to all as a way of living, enjoying a genuine friendship together, certainly hoping that what they find helps them (a relationship with God) can help you and all the people they care about, but unwilling ever to force that on you or to relate to you insincerely. 

Only you can know—you’d have to base your assessment on your own relationship and experience with them. 

[wisdomandtreasures]

On 6/3/2023 at 6:51 AM, Ting Tang said:

He’s the leader of this ministry. Now, I haven’t gotten to any gnitty  gritty details about Anna and Joshua other than a brief stint about their courtship. But I do.believe she so stayed with him out of obedience and brainwashing. It seems abuse is allowed and she just had to take it, sweep his behavior under the rug. He cheated on her and paid the other lady off not to tell. 

Oh, the Kellers are a trip. Anna's oldest sister apparently cried for 3 days straight when her husband either asked her to court or proposed. She was not interested in him, but chose to "die to self" and marry him because everyone convinced her he was The One. That's how little choice they have in the matter. The dad decides. And this isn't an isolated case. Among other IBLP families...

The Staddons - Kendalyn Staddon wanted to become either a nurse or a doctor. Her dad squashed her dreams and sent her to work at IBLP headquarters instead. While working there, she met Robert Staddon. He was interested but she still wanted to work in the medical field. Instead she was strong-armed into marrying him because Daddy said so. 

Tabitha Paine (sister of Chad Paine, Erin Bates' husband) was encouraged to marry a registered sex offender. The man raped a lady while she was sleeping. But he joined the IBLP crowd and all was forgiven. Actually, the Duggars even threw a wedding shower for them.

These families typically follow the Pearls. Debi Pearl has a book about being a good wife. She says if your husband is caught sexually abusing your kids and he goes to jail, take the kids to visit him in jail to pray for him. The husband can do no wrong. Everything is the wife's fault. Every woman, no matter how she's dressed or acting, is just a harlot waiting to trap a man and make him stumble. Raped? Her fault. Beaten? Her fault. Kids are abused? The wife didn't give him enough sex or pray enough for him. He leaves her? It was her fault, for the same reason just mentioned. Once you start digging into this culture, there's no question why Anna stays. 

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

There is a fine line between two types of people. 

One type approach sharing their faith as salesmen, employing sales tactics intentionally and offering memorized speeches and tallying wins. The other type simply want to share what has made a difference in their life in a generosity of spirit, a sincere hope that what helps me will help you too. 

Those who operate from a sales type perspective tend to make unfair generalizations about those who don’t share the same beliefs. They make those generalizations partially due to training and partially because they struggle to form sincere, reciprocal relationships outside of their own tribe. 

But the second type, imo, really do want sincere bonds of friendship. They will always hope that what they believe will help others, of course, as anyone might do. But my experience with this type of sharer-of-life-philosophy is that there is a sincere interest and a sincere respect even where there is a fundamental disagreement. I also tend to think this type are showing kindness and love to others not as a sales tactic to draw in a target, but rather from an inherent belief that love must guide our thoughts and our actions.

For Christians in this (second) camp, we would say the Bible teaches the principle of love. But I have also known many non-Christians who cherish the belief that being a good human is showing love. The difference, of course, is that the Christian believes in drawing strength/guidance to love from a relationship with God. But we all agree, as I said, that being a good human is showing love.

I have experienced both types from other Christians as well as from those of other faiths. Notably I have also experienced both types most particularly from folks in AA and from social workers within the foster care system—their strong beliefs are not necessarily connected to spiritual faith but rather to beliefs about addiction and abuse/dysfunction patterns. There are some who are just as pushy and disrespectful in proselytizing as any religious zealot. Now that I think about it, my mind also goes towards those who are actually selling something—I experienced this dynamic from a couple selling Amway when my kids were young and from a scattered few who were desperate to get friends to host home showings of various products. Not all small business people operate from this mindset, but I did experience that icky friendship pressure from some.

I say all this because I would like to think your missionary friends were of the second type. Not working a sale. Rather, showing love as they believe they must to all as a way of living, enjoying a genuine friendship together, certainly hoping that what they find helps them (a relationship with God) can help you and all the people they care about, but unwilling ever to force that on you or to relate to you insincerely. 

Only you can know—you’d have to base your assessment on your own relationship and experience with them. 

That reflects my experience. It was a weird situation anyway because proselytising was illegal, so there was an atmosphere of secrecy. In most cases we were excluded from social gatherings, in some cases we were cordially accepted into some occasions but this family seemed, I don't know, eager? In the way that they sought our acquaintance. 

[Ting Tang]

3 hours ago, wisdomandtreasures said:

Oh, the Kellers are a trip. Anna's oldest sister apparently cried for 3 days straight when her husband either asked her to court or proposed. She was not interested in him, but chose to "die to self" and marry him because everyone convinced her he was The One. That's how little choice they have in the matter. The dad decides. And this isn't an isolated case. Among other IBLP families...

The Staddons - Kendalyn Staddon wanted to become either a nurse or a doctor. Her dad squashed her dreams and sent her to work at IBLP headquarters instead. While working there, she met Robert Staddon. He was interested but she still wanted to work in the medical field. Instead she was strong-armed into marrying him because Daddy said so. 

Tabitha Paine (sister of Chad Paine, Erin Bates' husband) was encouraged to marry a registered sex offender. The man raped a lady while she was sleeping. But he joined the IBLP crowd and all was forgiven. Actually, the Duggars even threw a wedding shower for them.

These families typically follow the Pearls. Debi Pearl has a book about being a good wife. She says if your husband is caught sexually abusing your kids and he goes to jail, take the kids to visit him in jail to pray for him. The husband can do no wrong. Everything is the wife's fault. Every woman, no matter how she's dressed or acting, is just a harlot waiting to trap a man and make him stumble. Raped? Her fault. Beaten? Her fault. Kids are abused? The wife didn't give him enough sex or pray enough for him. He leaves her? It was her fault, for the same reason just mentioned. Once you start digging into this culture, there's no question why Anna stays. 

It is scary this exists in our society.  I agree that after watching this whole docuseries, Anna remaining "faithful" makes perfect sense.  I always wondered if Josh Duggar was sexually molested as a child.  But he was definitely repressed.  And his mother telling them they couldn't kiss in that one scene, and his father giving him a book.  

[rebcoola]

I binged the whole thing I think I will need to watch it again to absorb it all.  It was disturbing me to see how much influence it had on not IBPL people.  

[itsheresomewhere]

23 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

It is scary this exists in our society.  I agree that after watching this whole docuseries, Anna remaining "faithful" makes perfect sense.  I always wondered if Josh Duggar was sexually molested as a child.  But he was definitely repressed.  And his mother telling them they couldn't kiss in that one scene, and his father giving him a book.  

They is a lot of talk that thinks he was SA. 

[Ting Tang]

1 minute ago, itsheresomewhere said:

They is a lot of talk that thinks he was SA. 

He was a victim and then he grew up almost to be a copy of Gothard himself it seems.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

The Holts stated that JB and Michelle told them that their plan was just to make Josh tell Kaeleigh about the molestations after the marriage. 
 

Which makes me really wonder if they truly were honest with Anna and her parents, because JB seems very convinced of his own wisdom.  I am not sure he would have changed that plan, just find a family that was far enough away to have not heard any rumors.  And then tell them just enough to abate any rumors they might have heard, until the rings were on the fingers. 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[MercyA]

4 hours ago, wisdomandtreasures said:

Debi Pearl has a book about being a good wife. She says if your husband is caught sexually abusing your kids and he goes to jail, take the kids to visit him in jail to pray for him. 

In the Created to Be His Helpmeet book, Debi Pearl gives advice to a woman whose husband wanted her to help him steal from truck stops. She tells the woman to inform the police, assist them in catching her husband in the act, and then visit her husband in jail, bringing him goodies and encouraging him to look forward to being back home with his family. 

The sexual abuse question was addressed in an article by Michael Pearl in their magazine, No Greater Joy. He wrote: "If your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution."

Debi's advice re: the thieving husband is perhaps questionable. But Michael's answer is horrific. There is no way to "know the children are safe" with a predator in the house, and he shouldn't be given "an opportunity to prove himself" around children, ever. And telling her to "stick by" her perverse, abusive husband? No, no, no.

I do wonder if Anna has been influenced by the Pearls. It seems likely, although the IBLP teachings are similar. 😞  

[MercyA]

3 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

The Holts stated that JB and Michelle told them that their plan was just to make Josh tell Kaeleigh about the molestations after the marriage. 
Which makes me really wonder if they truly were honest with Anna and her parents, because JB seems very convinced of his own wisdom.  I am not sure he would have changed that plan, just find a family that was far enough away to have not heard any rumors.  And then tell them just enough to abate any rumors they might have heard, until the rings were on the fingers. 

Anna's statement when the police report re: the molestations came out:

“I can imagine the shock many of you are going through reading this. I remember feeling that same shock. It was not at the point of engagement, or after we were married - it was two years before Josh asked me to marry him. When my family and I first visited the Duggar Home, Josh shared his past teenage mistakes. I was surprised at his openness and humility and at the same time didn't know why he was sharing it. For Josh he wanted not just me but my parents to know who he really was -- even every difficult past mistakes. At that point and over the next two years, Josh shared how the counseling he received changed his life as he continued to do what he was taught. And when you, our sweet fans, first met me when Josh asked me to marry him... I was able to say, "Yes" knowing who Josh really is - someone who had gone down a wrong path and had humbled himself before God and those whom he had offended. Someone who had received the help needed to change the direction of his life and do what is right. I want to say thank you to those who took time over a decade ago to help Josh in a time of crisis. Your investment changed his life from going down the wrong path to doing what is right. If it weren't for your help I would not be here as his wife — celebrating 6 1/2 years of marriage to a man who knows how to be a gentleman and treat a girl right. Thank you to all of you who tirelessly work with children in crisis, you are changing lives and I am forever grateful for all of you.”

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

2 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Anna's statement when the police report re: the molestations came out:

“I can imagine the shock many of you are going through reading this. I remember feeling that same shock. It was not at the point of engagement, or after we were married - it was two years before Josh asked me to marry him. When my family and I first visited the Duggar Home, Josh shared his past teenage mistakes. I was surprised at his openness and humility and at the same time didn't know why he was sharing it. For Josh he wanted not just me but my parents to know who he really was -- even every difficult past mistakes. At that point and over the next two years, Josh shared how the counseling he received changed his life as he continued to do what he was taught. And when you, our sweet fans, first met me when Josh asked me to marry him... I was able to say, "Yes" knowing who Josh really is - someone who had gone down a wrong path and had humbled himself before God and those whom he had offended. Someone who had received the help needed to change the direction of his life and do what is right. I want to say thank you to those who took time over a decade ago to help Josh in a time of crisis. Your investment changed his life from going down the wrong path to doing what is right. If it weren't for your help I would not be here as his wife — celebrating 6 1/2 years of marriage to a man who knows how to be a gentleman and treat a girl right. Thank you to all of you who tirelessly work with children in crisis, you are changing lives and I am forever grateful for all of you.”

Except we now know that he didn’t actually receive any counseling, go anywhere that worked with children in crisis, receive any help, or change his ways…

I just don’t find it very hard to believe they gave Anna a very whitewashed version of the events. And she is, publicly at least, going to defend and stand by her man.

[MercyA]

Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

Except we now know that he didn’t actually receive any counseling, go anywhere that worked with children in crisis, receive any help, or change his ways…

I just don’t find it very hard to believe they gave Anna a very whitewashed version of the events. And she is, publicly at least, going to defend and stand by her man.

Agreed!

I still hope she gets the heck out of there. 

[Sneezyone]

37 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Anna's statement when the police report re: the molestations came out:

“I can imagine the shock many of you are going through reading this. I remember feeling that same shock. It was not at the point of engagement, or after we were married - it was two years before Josh asked me to marry him. When my family and I first visited the Duggar Home, Josh shared his past teenage mistakes. I was surprised at his openness and humility and at the same time didn't know why he was sharing it. For Josh he wanted not just me but my parents to know who he really was -- even every difficult past mistakes. At that point and over the next two years, Josh shared how the counseling he received changed his life as he continued to do what he was taught. And when you, our sweet fans, first met me when Josh asked me to marry him... I was able to say, "Yes" knowing who Josh really is - someone who had gone down a wrong path and had humbled himself before God and those whom he had offended. Someone who had received the help needed to change the direction of his life and do what is right. I want to say thank you to those who took time over a decade ago to help Josh in a time of crisis. Your investment changed his life from going down the wrong path to doing what is right. If it weren't for your help I would not be here as his wife — celebrating 6 1/2 years of marriage to a man who knows how to be a gentleman and treat a girl right. Thank you to all of you who tirelessly work with children in crisis, you are changing lives and I am forever grateful for all of you.”

This statement reads as so bizarre given the AM and CSA stuff he did WHILE they were married.

[MercyA]

15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

This statement reads as so bizarre given the AM and CSA stuff he did WHILE they were married.

I know, right? 😞 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

23 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

This statement reads as so bizarre given the AM and CSA stuff he did WHILE they were married.

Anna released this quote before she knew about AM. This was released shortly after the molestation was made public.

I am not sure she’s released any statement since then; but someone probably knows more than me.

[Ting Tang]

Life is way too short to stand by a criminal for 20 years in prison.  Just my two cents!  Maybe I am making up my own God, but I feel God understands these situations.  God would want you to move on, and if you want, to find someone else.  

[Dmmetler]

27 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Life is way too short to stand by a criminal for 20 years in prison.  Just my two cents!  Maybe I am making up my own God, but I feel God understands these situations.  God would want you to move on, and if you want, to find someone else.  

And God would want you to support and protect your children. I hope, anyway. 

I grew up in a mainline protestant church, went to public school, and didn't run into quiverful until I was an adult, and there were just constant things in the episodes that hit me, because theynwere things mentioned in the Christian magazines and mailings my mom got. It was definitely a "there but for the Grace of God..." feeling. 

[Ottakee]

Here are some articles on these issues by those directly abused by this stuff 

https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2023/05/seen-shiny-happy-people/?fbclid=IwAR3KtgqA0TTGsqfKhe3cnoWw21hdkv5sWkZnz3Q7k6rEfW3ObfjGncUXS3k&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

[thatfirstsip]

I find TLC's complicity in all of this really befuddling. The people filming knew, maybe not all of it, but enough - probably enough to mandate a CPS report, if they'd been mandated reporters. Enough to see the evil they were helping promote. And these people (the TLC people), unlike the kids, or people adjacent to the family, were not in a cult; they had nothing to fear except having to get a new job. Why do it? Why fund and promote this patriarchal abomination? And why isn't anyone clamoring for their heads?

[Sneezyone]

10 minutes ago, thatfirstsip said:

I find TLC's complicity in all of this really befuddling. The people filming knew, maybe not all of it, but enough - probably enough to mandate a CPS report, if they'd been mandated reporters. Enough to see the evil they were helping promote. And these people (the TLC people), unlike the kids, or people adjacent to the family, were not in a cult; they had nothing to fear except having to get a new job. Why do it? Why fund and promote this patriarchal abomination? And why isn't anyone clamoring for their heads?

Honestly, most people think 'a little patriarchal control' is OK. 'Others' don't know what's good for them so let's impose it for their own good. People prefer male leaders. They prefer male bosses. They prefer to see girls and women be 'girly/feminine' and meek, speak softly, not curse, not yell or be 'aggressive'. The leap from that preference to the 'seemingly' happy Duggar package wasn't big. I don't think it's safe to assume all the TLC people knew more than that. The contracts tho?? I'd say some lawyers should lose their licenses for ethics violations but Arkansas doesn't have any child actor guarantees/protections and only the federal minimum child worker protections.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Pawz4me]

23 minutes ago, thatfirstsip said:

I find TLC's complicity in all of this really befuddling. The people filming knew, maybe not all of it, but enough - probably enough to mandate a CPS report, if they'd been mandated reporters. Enough to see the evil they were helping promote. And these people (the TLC people), unlike the kids, or people adjacent to the family, were not in a cult; they had nothing to fear except having to get a new job. Why do it? Why fund and promote this patriarchal abomination? And why isn't anyone clamoring for their heads?

Because it was making huge $$$ for them, of course.

[catz]

I have been appalled by reality TV for years, particular reality TV that features minors.  But the way both the Duggar parents and TLC exploited these kids for years is really disgusting.  There were other awful shows  - dance moms, john and kate + 8, toddlers and tiaras.

Kids on reality TV do not have the same legal protections at child actors.  There are very strict guidelines and requirements for child actors with work limits, putting money in a trust, etc.  I really think reality TV with minors should not be a thing that is allowed at all.  It seems like any reality programming should require psych screening and monitoring and mandated reporters.  

The way both TLC and JB railroaded those kids into signing the contract that resulted in the money all ending up in his bank account makes me want to rage.

This article does a decent job at going over the issues.

https://www.today.com/parents/celebrity/child-reality-tv-social-media-stars-legal-protection-rcna54602

[Annie G]

Any idea when Jim and Bobye Holt left IBLP?  They were critical of how Jim Bob and Michelle handled Josh’s teenage transgressions but how long did they follow Gothard after that time period?  I thought after the teen transgressions happened that Josh lived with them for a time before he went to the work camp.  But maybe that’s not at all what happened. I’ve just never heard them say IBLP was bad, just that Josh did bad things. 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Annie G

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, Annie G said:

Any idea when Jim and Bobeye Holt left IBLP?  They were critical of how Jim Bob and Michelle handled Josh’s teenage transgressions but how long did they follow Gothard after that time period?  I thought after the teen transgressions happened that Josh lived with them for a time before he went to the work camp.  But maybe that’s not at all what happened. I’ve just never heard them say IBLP was bad, just that Josh did bad things. 

Problems with Jim Holt and one of his sons decided enough was enough. Sam helped his mom get a restraining order. Actually, they both have restraining orders, and his court date on D.V. charges is coming up soon. IBLP believes women and children, even adult children, should put up with violence. So she and the children who support her will not be welcome back into the fold.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Faith-manor
Typo

[Annie G]

11 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Problems with Jim Holt and one of his sons decided enough was enough. Sam helped his mom get a restraining order. Actually, they both have restraining orders, and his court date on D.V. charges is coming up soon. IBLP believes women and children, even cult children, should put up with violence. So she and the children who support her will not be welcome back into the fold.

Bobye has a restraining order against Jim? Wow.  Why was Jim even part of the docuseries??? 
 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Annie G

[itsheresomewhere]

7 minutes ago, Annie G said:

Bobye has a restraining order against Jim? Wow.  Why was Jim even part of the docuseries??? 
 

This happened not too long ago.  The series was filmed awhile ago.  

[Sneezyone]

45 minutes ago, catz said:

I have been appalled by reality TV for years, particular reality TV that features minors.  But the way both the Duggar parents and TLC exploited these kids for years is really disgusting.  There were other awful shows  - dance moms, john and kate + 8, toddlers and tiaras.

Kids on reality TV do not have the same legal protections at child actors.  There are very strict guidelines and requirements for child actors with work limits, putting money in a trust, etc.  I really think reality TV with minors should not be a thing that is allowed at all.  It seems like any reality programming should require psych screening and monitoring and mandated reporters.  

The way both TLC and JB railroaded those kids into signing the contract that resulted in the money all ending up in his bank account makes me want to rage.

This article does a decent job at going over the issues.

https://www.today.com/parents/celebrity/child-reality-tv-social-media-stars-legal-protection-rcna54602

Only in SOME states. The bolded is misunderstood. There are no federal laws.

[Annie G]

1 minute ago, itsheresomewhere said:

This happened not too long ago.  The series was filmed awhile ago.  

While watching the series I assumed the Holts had left IBLP, as I don’t recall any other of the participants still following IBLP. But now I’m not so sure about that. Bobye has a lot of courage to seek the protective order. Wonder if a divorce will ever happen.  

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

The Holts stated that JB and Michelle told them that their plan was just to make Josh tell Kaeleigh about the molestations after the marriage. 
 

Which makes me really wonder if they truly were honest with Anna and her parents, because JB seems very convinced of his own wisdom.  I am not sure he would have changed that plan, just find a family that was far enough away to have not heard any rumors.  And then tell them just enough to abate any rumors they might have heard, until the rings were on the fingers. 

Anna admitted that she did not know what sex was until a couple days before the wedding when her mom gave her a brief mechanical description. She had no idea what sex abuse is, concepts of bodily autonomy, consent, etc. Therefore, it isn't possible that she would have any framework for understanding S.A. at that time. Josh jumper the shark with the proposal. She had only met him twice, and Josh only had permission from Michael Keller to court her. As soon as the couple stepped away from the table, he produced a ring. If you watch the proposal episode, she recoils in fear away from him, and you can audibly hear her say NO softly. He pulled her towards him while she pulled back, and then made it out to the film crew and her parents that she had said yes. She was so unsure of him that you can see her trying to get her parents not to leave her alone with him. They told her she would be okay, and left anyway. It is revolting to watch. They thought he was going to ask her to court. He proposed. Then they went along with it. She had signed the contract with TLC to be filmed meeting Josh. Like most TLC contracts for the show, JB handled "explaining" the documents which means lying. She was signing away her rights for ten years, and included without even knowing she was being proposed to, her wedding, honeymoon, future home, pregnancies, births, and the right to film her children born during that period.

And Keller went along with it. It is all confirmed. Later on they filmed her making statements about how wonderful it was. She was steamrolled, and she very likely n thought that because of her parents demands and the contract she signed without reading that she had to marry him on pain of legal obligation.

Michelle signed all of the minor kids contracts which were with JB through his Mad Family INC L corporation and TLC. Then when they became adults, TLC only wrote contracts with MAD, and JimBob was in charge of contracts for his family to his organization. He is a snake, an evil, no good, low down, scum bag snake!

I would bet money Anna did not have any understanding of what Josh truly did. And remember at that point, he had been caught racking up an $800 phone bill for phone sex, his computer repair business had been closed because people in the church complained that they would get their computers back from Josh and there was porn downloaded, lots of porn, and Josh had been kicked to the curb by Jim Holt for using his campaign computers to download porn causing "sin in the camp" which Holt thought made him lose his election, not the fact that he was a fundie nutter the community was not interested in having make laws.

May Jim bob and Joshua Duggar, Michael Keller, and Jim Holt (who did not break off the courtship of his 14 year old daughter to Joshua Duggar when he found out about the molestations but only after losing the election and attributing it to Josh), rot in the hell they believe exists for what they did. Kaleigh Holt is the reason the molestations came to light. She wrote a letter about Josh and what he did, and placed it inside a book to be found. "alice" the anonymous source to Oprah Winfrey/Harper Productions was the person who found the letter. If there is a hero in the story, it is Raleigh and Alice. If there is a secondary hero, it is Bobye who testified against Josh in the pretrial hearing to establish a pattern of behavior so if the defense tried to make a case that Josh would never do something like download CSAM, the molestations as well as Ashley Madison could be brought into the trial. The third hero is Jill who went against her family and agreed to testify. The nail in his coffin. And this is the reason he went down without the defense team ever putting him on the stand or attempting to make a case that he was a decent human. But it all goes back to the courage of Kaleigh first.

As for Jim Holt, it is "rich" that he went on the docuseries with Bobye and then acted like he was so shocked, so appalled, so taken in. Blah blah blah. He is an abuser and may end up in jail himself. 

[Faith-manor]

17 minutes ago, Annie G said:

Bobye has a restraining order against Jim? Wow.  Why was Jim even part of the docuseries??? 
 

The initial filming was in 2021. It has been in editing ever since. The d.v. charges and restraining order are from the last six months.

[catz]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Only in SOME states. The bolded is misunderstood. There are no federal laws.

Yes, that is true.  Laws are best defined in CA since a lot is made there.  But I find it appaling that people have built an industry around exploiting kids who have zero protections.  I know I'm dreaming when I talk about a world where kids can't be openly exploited.

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Only in SOME states. The bolded is misunderstood. There are no federal laws.

This. Also, Coogin laws do not cover reality tv minors except in Pennsylvania. For more on that, you can jump over to the duggarssnark reddit. Several lawyers and paralegals have been explaining the lack of protections of minors in reality t.v. Kate plus 8 is the reason Pennsylvania passed stricter laws.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Faith-manor said:

This. Also, Coogin laws do not cover reality tv minors except in Pennsylvania. For more on that, you can jump over to the duggarssnark reddit. Several lawyers and paralegals have been explaining the lack of protections of minors in reality t.v. Kate plus 8 is the reason Pennsylvania passed stricter laws.

And CA. There's a reason they pump out these 'family' shows in PA, AR,MO, GA, FL...

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

And God would want you to support and protect your children. I hope, anyway. 

I grew up in a mainline protestant church, went to public school, and didn't run into quiverfull until I was an adult, and there were just constant things in the episodes that hit me, because they were things mentioned in the Christian magazines and mailings my mom got. It was definitely a "there but for the Grace of God..." feeling. 

For me it was the not-so-subtle intolerance locally, in public high school, the 'you're not the right kind of Christian' vibe that was PREVALENT in northwest Arkansas at the time. It was oppressive and gross (and I came from a deeply religious/attentive baptist/AME tradition). Like, I saw girls who were frickin' buckwild be treated as princesses while I was a scrub. This thread/strain of Christianity has much to answer for (which stands to reason as it was rooted in the backlash to the CRA of 1964).

Edited June 5, 2023 by Sneezyone

[El...]

I did not watch the original Duggar shows. We were in ATIA from my age 11 to about 16. The show concept always squicked me out.

I'm on episode 2 and appreciate the background history they're including. I think they're doing a decent job. (And, may I say, I really like the inclusion of Dr du Mez in the first episode. She's a rock star to me.)

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Life is way too short to stand by a criminal for 20 years in prison.  Just my two cents!  Maybe I am making up my own God, but I feel God understands these situations.  God would want you to move on, and if you want, to find someone else.  

Hr only got 12.5 years, with the requirement to serve 85% or 10 years. He has already lost the good behavior days he earned and been set back, being kept in solitary confinement because he got caught with contraband. He does have 20 years of probation afterward, and cannot be around minor children including his own, so he will not be able to live with her because the youngest ones will not be 18 yet when he is released unless she gives custody of them to a relative so she can live with him.

[Ting Tang]

59 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Hr only got 12.5 years, with the requirement to serve 85% or 10 years. He has already lost the good behavior days he earned and been set back, being kept in solitary confinement because he got caught with contraband. He does have 20 years of probation afterward, and cannot be around minor children including his own, so he will not be able to live with her because the youngest ones will not be 18 yet when he is released unless she gives custody of them to a relative so she can live with him.

What a mess. Anna’s life is ruined, at least for the foreseeable future. I didn’t realize they were up to 7 children?!

[Faith-manor]

3 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

What a mess. Anna’s life is ruined, at least for the foreseeable future. I didn’t realize they were up to 7 children?!

And seeing he was Wisdom Booklet only educated. This "curriculum' had been evaluated as being at its highest literacy level, 6th grade, and 5th grade for numeracy. The 1040A with instructions is 10th grade. She is for all practical purposes, educationally illiterate. That doesn't leave her a lot of options.

But, I do believe that if she listened to Jill and Jinger, she would find out that she could probably sell her story, and a ghost writer from a reputable publishing company could write it. With promotion appearances most of which are paid for, and the fact that it would probably sell a lot of copies, she might be able to earn enough to get a start away from JimBob. She also has a brother who is rather well off who did offer to help her when Josh got sent to Pray Away the Perv camp for Ashley Madison. She didn't go then. Sigh. She only had 3 and 1 on the way. Easier to do then than with 7 now. 

For the moment though, she may be living her best life. Josh lost visits for six months, phone calls for six months, total solitary. She does not have any responsibilities to him at all at the moment. Jim bob is her new headship, and she lives on the compound so he is paying the bills. So she doesn't have to go to school. She doesn't have to get a job. She has all of the teen girls, Johanna, Jordyn, Jennifer, and Josie plus adult Jana to help with her kids. She can't get pregnant again, and though she will be in her mid forties when he gets out, he can't live with her so may never get pregnant again. She doesn't have much to worry about, and in the cult, she is a heroine for standing by her man regardless of the fact that he is a despicable, criminal, demented, pedo. Possibly she is not remotely miserable at the moment.

[busymama7]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Hr only got 12.5 years, with the requirement to serve 85% or 10 years. He has already lost the good behavior days he earned and been set back, being kept in solitary confinement because he got caught with contraband. He does have 20 years of probation afterward, and cannot be around minor children including his own, so he will not be able to live with her because the youngest ones will not be 18 yet when he is released unless she gives custody of them to a relative so she can live with him.

What was he caught with and how did he get it? Is that public knowledge? Just curious.  

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

What was he caught with and how did he get it? Is that public knowledge? Just curious.  

CSA material of the worst kind:youngest victims on his work computer.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Sneezyone

[freesia]

6 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

What was he caught with and how did he get it? Is that public knowledge? Just curious.  

He had a cell phone. It was in the news. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, freesia said:

He had a cell phone. It was in the news. 

It was *not* his cell phone. He’s in prison for partitioning his work computer to watch/get off on the sexual abuse/torture of elementary/preschool-age minors.

[freesia]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It was *not* his cell phone. He’s in prison for partitioning his work computer to watch/get off on the sexual abuse/torture of elementary/preschool-age minors.

Yes, you are correct. I thought the pp was asking what the contraband he got caught with in prison was.