Sympathy for my expensive week?

[Laurel-in-CA]

DH got his bonus in March, much more than expected. Woohoo -- getting some estimates from landscapers, maybe a bathroom upgrade....and then!

Inspection of furnace and water heater required immediate replacement. It will be months before we can go back to the wish list! 

I am frustrated but very thankful that the $$ were there when needed...or will be when the tax return comes in. Sigh. Furnace was from 1987; water heater was at least 15 years old, so it was definitely time. And it costs yet more to bring it "up to code" when it's that old. New drains, new exhaust - under the house and along the ceiling, four new holes in the outside of the house to accommodate them. Yikes!

OTOH, my county has just outlawed gas appliances starting in 2025 so I got in under the wire.

[freesia]

Aww I’m sorry. We’ve had a similar experience. It’s not fun!

[prairiewindmomma]

Ahhh… 😔

We’ve sung different verses of that same song. 
 

I am sorry your plans had to change!

[mommyoffive]

OH man that stinks.  I am sorry.  

[Kassia]

I'm sorry too.  That is so frustrating.  Sometimes it feels like one step forward, two steps back.

Going through something similar now with medical bills - thousands of dollars on diagnostics with no resolution and all the bills came at once.  I'm cringing when I go to the mailbox now. 

[GoVanGogh]

I am so sorry. I feel your pain. We spent $5k on saving my child’s pet. Then I got sick and ended up with a ct scan, an MRI and a biopsy. Thankfully the pet and I are both on the mend. But. Whew. That hurt. 

[alisoncooks]

Yep. I’ll commiserate with you! We’ve had three appliances die (or near-dead, limping along) since Thanksgiving. And this year is the first year in decades that we’ve NOT gotten a taxrefund. Oof. And we owed money. Double-oof! 😉 

[ScoutTN]

Outlawed gas appliances?! Why?! How do they get to do that? 

We ❤️our natural gas heat! 

[Arcadia]

4 hours ago, Laurel-in-CA said:

 

OTOH, my county has just outlawed gas appliances starting in 2025 so I got in under the wire.

We are worried about that too as a few condo neighbors gas heater went kaput in the last few years.  I was joking with my husband that if gas stoves are outlawed, we would need to buy those Asian butane stoves for long power outages or drive out for food. We have dry rations but we rather not eat dry rations for lunch and dinner. 
 

11 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Outlawed gas appliances?! Why?! How do they get to do that? 

We ❤️our natural gas heat! 

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/23/1124511549/california-plans-to-phase-out-new-gas-heaters-by-2030
“In its ongoing effort to slash ozone pollution, the California Air Resources Board (CARB) voted Thursday to ban the sale of new gas furnaces and water heaters beginning in 2030. Homes will be required to install zero-emissions alternatives, like electric heaters. 

The vote is designed to meet EPA regulations limiting ozone in the atmosphere to 70 parts per billion. Much of California still exceeds that limit.

…. 

Gas furnaces in California won't necessarily disappear in 2030. It just means that in eight years, there will only be zero-emission replacements as old furnaces and water heaters begin to break and need to be replaced. The legislation also comes with rebate money to help residents make the switch to zero-emission technology.

The decision is just one more step toward California achieving its most ambitious climate goal yet: carbon neutrality by 2045.”

[Lecka]

My understanding is that in places that are going to have climate-friendly electricity over time, they want people to start installing heat pumps, so that the infrastructure is ready for electric when the climate-friendly electricity goes into effect.  Or it may already be in effect.  
 

That’s as far as I know, I read an article about it in national news, it’s not happening anywhere near me.  

[ScoutTN]

Electric heat is expensive!! To heat my 1300 sf, 1980s ranch on electric would cost as much as my mortgage payment. Poorer people would have to choose between heat and food. And we have a short, relatively mild winter. 
 

Yet another reason my state is seeing a huge, ongoing wave of people moving from CA. (I’m sure other places are too.)

[ScoutTN]

7 minutes ago, Lecka said:

My understanding is that in places that are going to have climate-friendly electricity over time, they want people to start installing heat pumps, so that the infrastructure is ready for electric when the climate-friendly electricity goes into effect.  Or it may already be in effect.  
 

That’s as far as I know, I read an article about it in national news, it’s not happening anywhere near me.  

Heat pumps are worthless when it’s really cold. Btdt. 50’s inside my house all winter. Never again. 

[Kareni]

Ouch, @Laurel-in-CA. You have my sympathies!

Regards,

Kareni

[popmom]

4 hours ago, Arcadia said:

We are worried about that too as a few condo neighbors gas heater went kaput in the last few years.  I was joking with my husband that if gas stoves are outlawed, we would need to buy those Asian butane stoves for long power outages or drive out for food. We have dry rations but we rather not eat dry rations for lunch and dinner. 
 

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/23/1124511549/california-plans-to-phase-out-new-gas-heaters-by-2030
“In its ongoing effort to slash ozone pollution, the California Air Resources Board (CARB) voted Thursday to ban the sale of new gas furnaces and water heaters beginning in 2030. Homes will be required to install zero-emissions alternatives, like electric heaters. 

The vote is designed to meet EPA regulations limiting ozone in the atmosphere to 70 parts per billion. Much of California still exceeds that limit.

…. 

Gas furnaces in California won't necessarily disappear in 2030. It just means that in eight years, there will only be zero-emission replacements as old furnaces and water heaters begin to break and need to be replaced. The legislation also comes with rebate money to help residents make the switch to zero-emission technology.

The decision is just one more step toward California achieving its most ambitious climate goal yet: carbon neutrality by 2045.”

That's cute. California uses natural gas to generate nearly half of it's electricity. And they import a good bit of electricity from other states. I haven't delved into exactly what fuels are used by those states to produce the electricity they send to CA.

sorry for the hijack! back on topic.

@Laurel-in-CA I can totally relate. I, too, am grateful that after our income took a huge hit during the pandemic, we are recovering. Dh got a bonus this year. So, so thankful!

Edited April 11, 2023 by popmom

[popmom]

1 hour ago, ScoutTN said:

Heat pumps are worthless when it’s really cold. Btdt. 50’s inside my house all winter. Never again. 

yes, I grew up in TVA territory when electricity was "cheap". So everyone had heat pumps in north AL. Then we moved south and got natural gas for heat. I don't know how we survived those heat pumps! Even when it isn't bitter cold, they just put out lukewarm air. I remember my parents would break out a kerosene heater during the coldest weather. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by popmom

[bookbard]

I think it's good that they're phasing out gas, it's not only not climate healthy but it's really not good for the individual, especially children's lungs. I hope, however, that the government is supporting the changeover to electric items? I know in Australia the government is paying people to swap their hot water heaters and ovens (depending on your state). They're also putting in for electricity (depending on your income). I can honestly say I've never paid so little for electricity in my life, it's under a hundred a month at the moment.

[popmom]

58 minutes ago, bookbard said:

I think it's good that they're phasing out gas, it's not only not climate healthy but it's really not good for the individual, especially children's lungs. I hope, however, that the government is supporting the changeover to electric items? I know in Australia the government is paying people to swap their hot water heaters and ovens (depending on your state). They're also putting in for electricity (depending on your income). I can honestly say I've never paid so little for electricity in my life, it's under a hundred a month at the moment.

Is Australia mostly generating electricity from nuclear power plants?

[bookbard]

29 minutes ago, popmom said:

Is Australia mostly generating electricity from nuclear power plants?

No we don't have any nuclear power plants in Australia - it's almost all coal, although there's also wind, hydro and solar. Over a third of households have solar panels (we do, hence our low costs), but industry uses more electricity than households. Australia is more dependent on coal than any other country, apparently. 

Edited to add: looking up the stats, it's about 60% coal, 8% gas and other (not sure what that is), and the rest is a mixture of different renewables: solar the most, then hydro, then wind. South Australia managed to run over 3months last year just on renewables. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by bookbard

[popmom]

5 minutes ago, bookbard said:

No we don't have any nuclear power plants in Australia - it's almost all coal, although there's also wind, hydro and solar. Over a third of households have solar panels (we do, hence our low costs), but industry uses more electricity than households. Australia is more dependent on coal than any other country, apparently. 

That’s interesting. I had no idea. I actually expected that y’all would be less dependent on coal than we are. I guess I take issue with natural gas not being climate healthy when it’s much cleaner burning than coal. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by popmom

[bookbard]

Just now, popmom said:

That’s interesting. I had no idea. I actually expected that y’all would be less dependent on coal than we are.

Remember we've had a conservative government for the last 13 years. That changed this year. 

[popmom]

3 minutes ago, bookbard said:

Remember we've had a conservative government for the last 13 years. That changed this year. 

I’m conservative lol. I wouldn’t “blame” it on that. And those coal burning plants have been around for a bit more than 13 years. It’s much more complicated than that. For another thread. 🙂

Edited April 11, 2023 by popmom

[bookbard]

5 minutes ago, popmom said:

I’m conservative lol. I wouldn’t “blame” it on that. It’s much more complicated than that. 

True - Australia was a lot later to have marriage equality, even the 'centre left' party didn't go through with it until a referendum. We're definitely not as progressive a country as many might think. But I guess most countries have a mixed bag of progressive and regressive type policies. 

[bookbard]

16 minutes ago, popmom said:

I guess I take issue with natural gas not being climate healthy when it’s much cleaner burning than coal. 

I don't think you're allowed to have coal burning in your house though. The laws about gas stoves/heaters are public health as much as environmental. I mean - I do think it's hypocritical, that the individual has to change their behaviour but the big companies causing massive air and water pollution and so on get away with it. But I do agree in general it's a 'good thing' - just that if the government wants it to happen, they should compensate you. 

[DawnM]

I hate that for you.   So sorry.

Banning gas appliances?   Yikes.

[Lecka]

Supposedly heat pumps are a better quality now, from what I read, but how would I know?  And the people they interviewed (in the article I read) were either getting big rebates and really happy about that, and wanting the rebates to continue, or else maybe people who would put up with a lower quality for the sake of the environment.  
 

So the article was full of people who were happy with the heat pumps, but they were also saying — hey, it’s a self-selected group in its way that is saying this stuff.  
 

But at the same time — supposedly the quality of heat pumps has improved.  
 

I also think it’s odd that there is a switch to what is currently coal-powered electricity, but I think the state I read about thought that would be changing soon.  
 

I think I was reading about Maine.  It was interesting but something I have no background information about.  

[Lecka]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/22/climate/heat-pumps-extreme-cold.html
 

This is part of the series I read about heat pumps in Maine.  It was interesting to me but honestly I wonder what people in Maine think, it’s totally outside my personal experience.  

[Idalou]

11 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Heat pumps are worthless when it’s really cold. Btdt. 50’s inside my house all winter. Never again. 

No, not all of them. Technology has advanced and I hoped there will be even better by 2030, when most of these changes will be enforced. Newer heat pumps can handle well below freezing temps. I'm outside of Rochester, and I'll guess it's much colder than TN. We've got a new one that has no trouble keeping us warm. I plan to take advantage if whatever credits will be given on a new purchase of an electric stove once our gas one bites the dust.

 Blanket statements do nothing to further the conversation about what can be done for pollution in and out of the home, for climate crises, for ways to help all of us adapt to what is coming, no matter what.

[Innisfree]

23 hours ago, Lecka said:

But at the same time — supposedly the quality of heat pumps has improved.  

They really have improved since my first experience with them. At that point, in the early nineties, I loathed my heat pump and never wanted another. It always felt like the air it was blowing was cold. I had grown up with oil-powered radiators, which radiated such lovely heat, and the heat pump was a real shock.

Since then, though, I’ve lived in three houses which all had up-to-date heat pumps, and they’ve been fine. The houses are comfortable. It’s not radiant heat. If I could do exactly what I wanted, I’d love radiators again, because you can sit closer to them or farther away as comfort dictates. I’d want them to be electric, though, and as efficient as our heat pumps have been.

The costs don’t seem too bad to me. We’re in the middle of a transition, so have had to heat two houses this winter. [Removed costs, but if anyone is interested, pm me.] I have no clue how much of that was for the heat, or how it compares to what others are paying, but it’s far less than we had to pay for oil heat in one of those houses before we installed the heat pump. (Coming back to add for @ScoutTN and others who may be thinking of, say, electric baseboard heat, that all electric heat is not equal in expense. Heat pumps are much more efficient, and thus cheaper.)

 I do value knowing that I’m using a cleaner fuel, but economy and comfort won my dh over to heat pumps.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Innisfree

[Laurel-in-CA]

16 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Outlawed gas appliances?! Why?! How do they get to do that? 

We ❤️our natural gas heat! 

County control of permits = No new building with gas appliances or furnaces and then in 2025 they start forcing you to replace with electricity, first water heaters and then furnaces. So, in a way, I am glad this happened now.

[Laurel-in-CA]

12 hours ago, bookbard said:

I think it's good that they're phasing out gas, it's not only not climate healthy but it's really not good for the individual, especially children's lungs. I hope, however, that the government is supporting the changeover to electric items? I know in Australia the government is paying people to swap their hot water heaters and ovens (depending on your state). They're also putting in for electricity (depending on your income). I can honestly say I've never paid so little for electricity in my life, it's under a hundred a month at the moment.

Nobody's paying anybody here, and the switchover costs can be significant. My utilities bill went up this month like most of the rest of the county -- double!!

[popmom]

12 hours ago, bookbard said:

I don't think you're allowed to have coal burning in your house though. The laws about gas stoves/heaters are public health as much as environmental. I mean - I do think it's hypocritical, that the individual has to change their behaviour but the big companies causing massive air and water pollution and so on get away with it. But I do agree in general it's a 'good thing' - just that if the government wants it to happen, they should compensate you. 

Definitely compensation.

ETA:
Actually you are allowed to burn coal to heat your home—here in the US.  I just looked it up. More than 2 million people still use coal or wood to heat their homes because it’s less expensive. So as usual these measures disproportionately affect lower income households.

Charcoal grills. Wood burning fireplaces. Many still use wood solely to heat their homes. Or oil. Not aware of any laws that ban charcoal in fireplaces, but that’s a different material. This has made me curious to look into this further. I do understand the health risks associated with cooking with gas, but maybe the efforts should be focused on improving indoor air quality overall with adequate ventilation. More awareness. 
 

How does secondhand cigarette or marijuana smoke compare (health outcomes) Just me thinking aloud. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by popmom

[popmom]

5 hours ago, Lecka said:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/22/climate/heat-pumps-extreme-cold.html
 

This is part of the series I read about heat pumps in Maine.  It was interesting to me but honestly I wonder what people in Maine think, it’s totally outside my personal experience.  

It’s paywalled. 
 

I’m interested though. There are piggyback heat pumps that allow gas to kick in at low temps. I’d be open to a heat pump next time if it actually blew warm air.

[Grace Hopper]

16 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Heat pumps are worthless when it’s really cold. Btdt. 50’s inside my house all winter. Never again. 

We’ve had them and ime it depends on the climate. High humidity areas are more comfortable indoors during the winter with central heating (imo), because they reduce dampness. In lower humidity areas, gas central heat is cheaper but drying to the skin. 

[Innisfree]

12 minutes ago, popmom said:

It’s paywalled. 
 

I’m interested though. There are piggyback heat pumps that allow gas to kick in at low temps. I’d be open to a heat pump next time if it actually blew warm air.

Gifted:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/22/climate/heat-pumps-extreme-cold.html?unlocked_article_code=CLG9JubdjPwjB0Yq70rJeTi-ysIihw8MGUaUhAHEUNlh-mIMoxx0kscbiTKNCIq30rrYVE3_74hBQhhNHEPV9TYfSyETzdFKV-z5GmiCZX0Ezka54Ehuaqfsw7f9oizoqOMmMmicfdaKqzAQf3DIcmVzAM171Ys68xOp6Oh1Z9FuYRDaI0A5kmbCHcVOnBUVfAlVWnO8N0X3ur3NA17xVlu61My0rKNzhWG-5ExPNhPWgPmfNOIFX51wpCzcwRU5XlxgwMDKJcFYFioSVriUNqrjCLNvVUHbBrWB_EZSYs28i-fZkW7uHbjM0rdtmqu6JITRJLlH9yPUWFPYSyf76VUuJ0uAs56Q0zcPuHOnFIwCFw&smid=url-share

 

When air comes out of our vents, it does feel warm, fwiw. Dogs and people position themselves accordingly.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Innisfree