Prayers for dh’s family please

[Grace Hopper]

1 minute ago, saraha said:

I think it will be easier for me to whisper campaign to a center while she gets rehab than the hospital, so there is that. I can drop by for visits while she’s there versus not even having a reason to be at hospital right now

Someone also should whisper to the hospital SW that y’all really need her to have as long a time in rehab as insurance will cover, so her family can get their act together on future care. 

[saraha]

I mean seriously. She broke her hip on first or second fall last night and yet he had her walk up the stairs twice and then down the stairs in the morning and get dressed

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

4 minutes ago, saraha said:

I think it will be easier for me to whisper campaign to a center while she gets rehab than the hospital, so there is that. I can drop by for visits while she’s there versus not even having a reason to be at hospital right now

I totally wasn’t clear—I meant you can call the social worker at the facility if she ends up in rehab, even if you’re not listed as POA or healthcare proxy.  
 

I did this the last time my grandmother was in a rehab center, because I knew full well she was telling them that her daughters would be providing 24/7 care so she could go home and I also knew my mom would not contradict her(my mom was horrified at the poor care, but it was things like not having the staff to help her wash up before noon on weekends, not true safety concerns). While the rehab center was severely understaffed and she hated it there due to the poor care, it was still safer than being home alone part of the time.  I called the SW and told them they needed to argue with Medicare to buy more time while my Mom could hire at least one aid.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[saraha]

3 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

Someone also should whisper to the hospital SW that y’all really need her to have as long a time in rehab as insurance will cover, so her family can get their act together on future care. 

But would they listen to me? A dil calling in versus actual family actually there? Dh keeps saying we don’t know what sil and bil will say. He’s hoping this will wake them up.

Edited November 29, 2022 by saraha

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

4 minutes ago, saraha said:

But would they listen to me? A dil calling in versus actual family actually there? Dh keeps saying we don’t know what sil and bil will say. He’s hoping this will wake them up.

Hospital and facility social workers have seen very messed up family situations.  They’re pretty used to navigating those issues so yes, I think if you or DH called, you’d be listened to.

[saraha]

Thanks for listening to me guys. Dh is not really in a place to receive my copious amount of thoughts and advice. He has not been listened to or respected his whole adult life and me putting in my two cents seems to exacerbate that helpless feeling. So I  learning to save my unasked for advice or opinions for the biggest impact 

Edited November 29, 2022 by saraha

[saraha]

4 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

Hospital and facility social workers have seen very messed up family situations.  They’re pretty used to navigating those issues so yes, I think if you or DH called, you’d be listened to.

And not just seen as the meddling dil like in the movie’s, just trying to get mil out of the way? Dh thinks I would have no creditability

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

3 minutes ago, saraha said:

And not just seen as the meddling dil like in the movie’s, just trying to get mil out of the way? Dh thinks I would have no creditability

I think it’s highly likely yours is one of the more functional families they’ve dealt with.

Meddling DILs who just want MILs “out of the way” are much, much rarer than the family members in denial about elder care that healthcare workers see.

[Pawz4me]

26 minutes ago, saraha said:

It should have said dh. But of course with googling I found where sometime they don’t go to rehab, I really hope that is not what happens here. If her stay in the psych ward is any indication, fil will be a wreck. She was in there 6 weeks and he lost a bunch of weight and was completely despondent and kept threatening to go get her, but no one would tell him the name of the facility she was in and he didn’t have the ability to figure it out for himself. 
im hoping that he is much more worn down now and he will actually rest while she is gone, but who knows.

Her next of kin, and any/all family members who may be at the hospital if/when discharge is discussed need to practice saying "I (or we) do not feel safe taking her home."

 

4 minutes ago, saraha said:

And not just seen as the meddling dil like in the movie’s, just trying to get mil out of the way? Dh thinks I would have no creditability

I'm guessing if a phrase similar to "elder abuse, or at least bordering on it" were said they'd have to take you seriously.

[Grace Hopper]

4 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Her next of kin, and any/all family members who may be at the hospital if/when discharge is discussed need to practice saying "I (or we) do not feel safe taking her home."

 

I'm guessing if a phrase similar to "elder abuse, or at least bordering on it" were said they'd have to take you seriously.

I think the word “neglect” may also be important.

[Innisfree]

1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

Her next of kin, and any/all family members who may be at the hospital if/when discharge is discussed need to practice saying "I (or we) do not feel safe taking her home."

 

I'm guessing if a phrase similar to "elder abuse, or at least bordering on it" were said they'd have to take you seriously.

This. Allowing her to stay in the situation you’ve described is negligent at best. I know family members don’t want to upset FIL, but he is not competent to make these decisions. I would absolutely call the hospital social worker and be very clear that adequate care is not possible at home, and FIL , siblings, whoever, are in denial. Tell them about making her climb the stairs repeatedly when she keeps falling down. Be detailed and specific. Say that FIL has dementia.

Maybe someone who knows can comment on whether Saraha’s call to the social worker could be confidential.

[fraidycat]

56 minutes ago, saraha said:

And not just seen as the meddling dil like in the movie’s, just trying to get mil out of the way? Dh thinks I would have no creditability

At this point, somebody outside the family needs to know what is going on. You are in a situation (finally) where your  voice could make a difference. Dh and his siblings do not even need to know that you spoke to the social worker. Do what YOU think is best.

[saraha]

8 minutes ago, fraidycat said:

At this point, somebody outside the family needs to know what is going on. You are in a situation (finally) where your  voice could make a difference. Dh and his siblings do not even need to know that you spoke to the social worker. Do what YOU think is best.

That’s what I was thinking with the whisper campaign in the rehab place.

[Innisfree]

1 minute ago, saraha said:

That’s what I was thinking with the whisper campaign in the rehab place.

But why wait? Speaking up now would increase her chances of getting a good stay in a rehab place.

[saraha]

Because dh has asked me not to insert myself. I did tell him all the information about how he can contact the social worker at the hospital but since he hasn’t talked to anyone other than over text he just wants to wait and see 

Edited November 29, 2022 by saraha

[mlktwins]

6 minutes ago, saraha said:

Because dh has asked me not to insert myself. I did tell him all the information about how he can contact the social worker at the hospital but since he hasn’t talked to anyone other than over text he just wants to wait and see 

Quite honestly, you've done what you can then. It is on him and his siblings at this point. 

I have done this with my dad pretty much alone for the past 4 years and it is tough. But...at least I can do what is needed without any interference from anyone else. The whole elder care thing is hard enough with out that. Hang in there...

[saraha]

9 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

Quite honestly, you've done what you can then. It is on him and his siblings at this point. 

I have done this with my dad pretty much alone for the past 4 years and it is tough. But...at least I can do what is needed without any interference from anyone else. The whole elder care thing is hard enough with out that. Hang in there...

Exactly. That is why I am asking for prayer for wisdom and compassion for all involved 

[Katy]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

Thanks for listening to me guys. Dh is not really in a place to receive my copious amount of thoughts and advice. He has not been listened to or respected his whole adult life and me putting in my two cents seems to exacerbate that helpless feeling. So I  learning to save my unasked for advice or opinions for the biggest impact 

So don’t talk to him about this. At all. 

1 hour ago, saraha said:

And not just seen as the meddling dil like in the movie’s, just trying to get mil out of the way? Dh thinks I would have no creditability

Your DH is wrong. I have plenty of experience with patients and bickering family members. Frequently hospital security has to be called. A DIL who wants more care is usually seen as the reasonable one. 

19 minutes ago, saraha said:

Because dh has asked me not to insert myself. I did tell him all the information about how he can contact the social worker at the hospital but since he hasn’t talked to anyone other than over text he just wants to wait and see 

In this case, ignore him. It’s crisis time.  Go for a drive and call the floor she’s admitted to and ask for that floor’s social worker. Explain that she needs more care and she shouldn’t go home, even if some of her kids don’t want to spend the money on the care she needs. This is your shot at getting her good care.
 

You should also be aware there’s also a chance (a pretty high one, based on her O2 numbers), that she’ll get pneumonia from not being able to walk and never make it home. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Katy

[Storygirl]

I'm sorry this is happening, but I hope it's a wake up call for the family. I can't believe that there was a suggestion that she was faking it.

It's obvious that your husband is reluctant to make waves, which is understandable with this family. I get that you won't choose to go against his wishes. Perhaps talk to him again tomorrow about the social worker idea. Your husband may need time to process what has happened and may be ready to make different decisions in a day or two.

 

[fairfarmhand]

2 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I'm sorry this is happening, but I hope it's a wake up call for the family. I can't believe that there was a suggestion that she was faking it.

It's obvious that your husband is reluctant to make waves, which is understandable with this family. I get that you won't choose to go against his wishes. Perhaps talk to him again tomorrow about the social worker idea. Your husband may need time to process what has happened and may be ready to make different decisions in a day or two.

 

Perhaps phrasing it gently in a way that says , "I understand that you want to not make waves, but you are choosing to allow your mother to suffer over your inability to deal with conflict."

ETA: When we dealt with elder care conflicts, we had to be clear that not making a decision is the exact same thing as making a decision. Choosing to do nothing is absolutely a choice that has as many consequences as making the choice.

Edited November 29, 2022 by fairfarmhand

[Katy]

1 minute ago, fairfarmhand said:

Perhaps phrasing it gently in a way that says , "I understand that you want to not make waves, but you are choosing to allow your mother to suffer over your inability to deal with conflict."

This seems like something that can be worked out over the coming years. In this case why create additional conflict now when she can just talk to the social worker herself? 

[saraha]

That’s why I started this thread. Every new text I got from him today, I was able to say what I wanted to say here, and then have a more measured or just supportive text to him. I did share thoughts about contacting social worker and I reminded him that after surgery tomorrow they will start looking for a rehab place and he needs to make sure wherever she goes has memory care as not all of the places here have memory care.

[Grace Hopper]

57 minutes ago, saraha said:

That’s why I started this thread. Every new text I got from him today, I was able to say what I wanted to say here, and then have a more measured or just supportive text to him. I did share thoughts about contacting social worker and I reminded him that after surgery tomorrow they will start looking for a rehab place and he needs to make sure wherever she goes has memory care as not all of the places here have memory care.

One thing he could do is ask for a list of the places she would possibly go for rehab, then check out the places listed and from there make a request for your preference. It will likely depend on space availability, but you could at least state your wishes. 

[Harriet Vane]

3 hours ago, saraha said:

But would they listen to me? A dil calling in versus actual family actually there? Dh keeps saying we don’t know what sil and bil will say. He’s hoping this will wake them up.

Yes, they will listen. This happens absolutely all the time. Staff are totally used to the dynamics of family-in-denial versus The Whistleblower. Tell the staff. Tell the caseworker. Say it more than once.

[Corraleno]

@saraha Do you think the caregiver would be willing to call the social worker at the hospital and explain that she has been an in-home caregiver for MIL for X months, and she can categorically state that MIL does not have adequate care or supervision at home, that FIL and several other family members are in deep denial — as evidenced by the fact that FIL claimed she was faking and made her walk up and down the stairs with a broken hip, and the family did not want to take her to the hospital until the possibility of social services intervening was brought up — and MIL must go into a rehab facility with dementia care. She could basically tell the social worker everything that you yourself would say, without you having to go against your DH's wishes, plus she has been a direct witness to both the long term care issues and the immediate crisis that resulted in injury and hospitalization, so she can provide all the details that FIL & SIL might try to gloss over or leave out. I assume the social worker would listen to her as an impartial source with direct caregiving experience in the case.

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, saraha said:

If her stay in the psych ward is any indication, fil will be a wreck. She was in there 6 weeks and he lost a bunch of weight and was completely despondent and kept threatening to go get her, but no one would tell him the name of the facility she was in and he didn’t have the ability to figure it out for himself. 

That is something to tell the social worker. I would type up a bunch of stuff like this and take it to the social worker. If your list is too long and diluted, pull out the most pressing parts to the beginning, and tell her (it’s usually a her) it’s a bit rambling after that. It’s okay. You’ve been sitting on a lot of information for too long.

2 hours ago, saraha said:

Because dh has asked me not to insert myself. I did tell him all the information about how he can contact the social worker at the hospital but since he hasn’t talked to anyone other than over text he just wants to wait and see 

I can’t say anything nice about this. I have zero patience with ostrich behavior. 

2 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Perhaps phrasing it gently in a way that says , "I understand that you want to not make waves, but you are choosing to allow your mother to suffer over your inability to deal with conflict."

ETA: When we dealt with elder care conflicts, we had to be clear that not making a decision is the exact same thing as making a decision. Choosing to do nothing is absolutely a choice that has as many consequences as making the choice.

This.

1 hour ago, Katy said:

This seems like something that can be worked out over the coming years. In this case why create additional conflict now when she can just talk to the social worker herself? 

He asked her not to get involved. While he doesn’t have to know, she might not be comfortable going behind his back.

I am more of the type to make waves in full view after my concerns are ignored kind of person and would only go to the social worker behind the scenes as a stop-gap measure, but that’s me. She has to decide how to live with this situation and this husband.

[LifeLovePassion]

I had to tattle several times on my parents for a variety of reasons. If you can, I'd start ASAP at the hospital. I did read that your hubby was unsure, but maybe he will change his mind after a day.

You can call the nurses station and ask to speak to her nurse. They can't give you any info, but they can listen and bring up concerns to the Dr. I would also mention your concerns about FIL and his decision making ability to the nurses or social worker. 

I'm sorry it's a difficult place to be. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by LifeLovePassion

[BusyMom5]

Hugs and prayers for your family, this is going to be hard.  I am glad MIL us finally getting care.  

[itsheresomewhere]

Something I say to someone who doesn’t want to make waves in her family. If something should happen, would you be ok when you looked back on not making waves or having rocked the boat.   
 

Good luck and may you all find peace with the decisions coming up. 

[saraha]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

@saraha Do you think the caregiver would be willing to call the social worker at the hospital and explain that she has been an in-home caregiver for MIL for X months, and she can categorically state that MIL does not have adequate care or supervision at home, that FIL and several other family members are in deep denial — as evidenced by the fact that FIL claimed she was faking and made her walk up and down the stairs with a broken hip, and the family did not want to take her to the hospital until the possibility of social services intervening was brought up — and MIL must go into a rehab facility with dementia care. She could basically tell the social worker everything that you yourself would say, without you having to go against your DH's wishes, plus she has been a direct witness to both the long term care issues and the immediate crisis that resulted in injury and hospitalization, so she can provide all the details that FIL & SIL might try to gloss over or leave out. I assume the social worker would listen to her as an impartial source with direct caregiving experience in the case.

I doubt it, her son is married to sil’s daughter. Small county. I don’t know about social worker confidentiality as sil’s dil works at the hospital she is in now. Everyone is tied together some how.

dh just got home from hospital, will update in a bit 

Edited November 30, 2022 by saraha

[saraha]

Dh spelled his brother and stayed with his mom and dad while he went home to get ready to stay the night. I offered to stay the night as everyone had to work tomorrow but I think bil is feeling guilty. Fil went home for the night when dh left and if he can fall asleep, it will probably be the best sleep he’s had in 6-9 months. I offered to stay tomorrow but bil is staying until dh spells him. Doctors don’t seem to be looking for the cause of the really low blood oxygen, just put her on oxygen and trying to sort out the hip. Hopefully they come back around to it. They gave her some pain medicine and dh said she had been asleep really hard for like 4 hours when he left. Hopefully she doesn’t try to keep bil up all night trying to eacape like she did Sunday night. So glad fil went home. I reiterated making sure that while the hospital will be lining up a place for her to rehab tomorrow or next day, they must get a place with memory care or it won’t work. Dh agreed. He said no one was talking aftercare yet, at least to him

[fraidycat]

Hopefully the pain medication will help to keep her asleep so that everyone gets a decent night of sleep.

[Mom_to3]

This sounds like an awful situation all around. I am awaiting news like this from my parents at any moment, watching from afar (different continent; my sibling is there) - so many close calls these past 1.5 yrs (including a hip fracture). It is soooo difficult when they want to make decisions, but really shouldn't...Just hugs to you and your DH!! It is wonderful that you care so much as the DIL.

[BusyMom5]

If her dementia is as bad as you say, they will keep her medicated while she recovers- Otherwise she will be ripping out IVs and trying to escape.  One thing at a time- but yes, memory care is a necessity.  I'm sorry that the situation has to happen, but this was going to happen eventually, snd maybe this will help get the kids on the same page.  Its very possible she won't be walking again- between dosage to keep her manageable and the PT required to walk after surgery.   My uncle with bad dementia that required lots of meds to control him- the meds made him too shaky to walk, do he went into a wheelchair.   

[Grace Hopper]

Praying for your MIL today. Hope the surgery went well. 

[saraha]

She just went back for surgery. Sil group texted with me in it to ask who was staying the night tonight. First group text I’ve gotten in months 🙄. She did the night she was at first hospital, bil did last night and I told dh in a separate text I would tonight since he had to work tomorrow. I don’t mind that at all. I offered to bring them all homemade chili while they wait but he said he was going to grab fast food for everyone on his way from work.

[LifeLovePassion]

25 minutes ago, saraha said:

She just went back for surgery. Sil group texted with me in it to ask who was staying the night tonight. First group text I’ve gotten in months 🙄. She did the night she was at first hospital, bil did last night and I told dh in a separate text I would tonight since he had to work tomorrow. I don’t mind that at all. I offered to bring them all homemade chili while they wait but he said he was going to grab fast food for everyone on his way from work.

So nice of her to finally re-include you. Hoping all goes well with the surgery and you get some good conversation time with her nurses if you are the one who stays. 

[saraha]

I know, right?🙄 me too

All three of them will be there this evening, so hopefully dh can bring up after care.

Edited November 30, 2022 by saraha

[kbutton]

36 minutes ago, saraha said:

🙄. 

QFT, lol!!!

[Katy]

The great thing about spending the night is you can be there to demand a sedative if she won’t stay in bed and you can stay through morning rounds, which usually start at 6 am, and make sure the attending physician AND the social worker know she lives in an unsafe environment and extended family members appear to be in denial or more concerned about their inheritance than her safety. 

[Annie G]

I’ve been I exactly the same position, and I feel for you, @saraha. I’m glad a rehab place is in her future. When MIL, with dementia, broke her hip, they sent her straight home after surgery. Right back to the ‘care’ she was receiving before. 
You’re doing such a good job advocating for her while helping dh navigate his emotions and family relationships. 

[Grace Hopper]

39 minutes ago, Katy said:

The great thing about spending the night is you can be there to demand a sedative if she won’t stay in bed and you can stay through morning rounds, which usually start at 6 am, and make sure the attending physician AND the social worker know she lives in an unsafe environment and extended family members appear to be in denial or more concerned about their inheritance than her safety. 

This! Those morning rounds come earlier than many family members make it back to sit for the day and wow, it is a great time to express - even just briefly - that she has no constant care at home. It’s also a good time for you to learn what is actually going on, things your SIL might not keep you in the loop about. Cause I bet there will continue to be an A loop and a B loop. 🙄for sure. 

[saraha]

I’m hoping since the haven’t addressed whatever is causing her really low oxygen levels yet, just sending her home won’t be an option. I hope.

[Grace Hopper]

9 minutes ago, saraha said:

I’m hoping since the haven’t addressed whatever is causing her really low oxygen levels yet, just sending her home won’t be an option. I hope.

Surgery for a broken hip in an elderly person is a Big Deal, depending on the complexity of the break. The recovery is usually described as difficult and can take a long time. I’d expect her to be in the hospital and then rehab for a while. I don’t think they’d send her straight home from the hospital - I’d pitch a fit if they tried to send her straight back to her house with zero residential rehab time. 
 

But, doctors vary, insurance companies vary…. At her age, she should be on some sort of Medicare plan, which would probably provide coverage for a stint in rehab. 
 

Sounds like her bedroom is in a second floor. That would mean to bring her home, y’all would have to arrange for a downstairs room to become her bedroom - hopefully with access to a full bathroom on the same level. Maybe that would be easy at her house, but if not it’s a factor in the where-to-go-from-here decision making. 

[saraha]

Back when they had covid we moved their bed down to the family room, so I’m sure they’ll do that again if she ends up coming home. She is a retired public school employee, so I’m sure she has plenty of nsurance

[prairiewindmomma]

2 hours ago, saraha said:

I’m hoping since the haven’t addressed whatever is causing her really low oxygen levels yet, just sending her home won’t be an option. I hope.

They may attribute it to age. Some people will just live at a lower level normally.

Worst case scenario: they release without sorting out the oxygen issue, only 3 days after surgery because it was a simple fracture repair, and she doesn’t qualify for full rehab due to mental state. BTDT with one relative.

 

[saraha]

Lower 80s seems really low though, of course I don’t know anything. It was lower 80s at second hospital, I don’t know at first hospital. When she was napping it dropped to 80 and then she ended up on oxygen

Edited December 1, 2022 by saraha

[prairiewindmomma]

13 minutes ago, saraha said:

Lower 80s seems really low though, of course I don’t know anything. It was lower 80s at second hospital, I don’t know at first hospital. When she was napping it dropped to 80 and then she ended up on oxygen

It is low, but for my dd with cancer, low 80s was her baseline normal without oxygen support. They do a X-ray to rule out pneumonia, maybe a lung function test or ECG, and then just discharge with oxygen and/or cpap.

[Katy]

9 hours ago, saraha said:

Lower 80s seems really low though, of course I don’t know anything. It was lower 80s at second hospital, I don’t know at first hospital. When she was napping it dropped to 80 and then she ended up on oxygen

It’s low because she’s not walking. Flexing your thighs does a lot of work moving blood around. When still, her heart has all the work. 

[saraha]

Ok, I did a thing but don’t know what to do with the information, so I’m going to share it here so that I can keep it straight.

. I went over to visit mil this morning. Sil and fil were there but fil left to get a cup of coffee. Sil (who did not show up to the hospital last night after all so didn’t talk with the social worker with bil, fil and dh) said the hospital is going to keep her there and do rehab in the hospital for 2 weeks and then she can go home. Sil was excited about theirs because then we won’t have to move her. When fil came back he was excitedly telling me about her staying at the hospital two weeks then they can get back to normal. 
So when we left the visit, I went down to the nurses station (which was the opposite way to the elevator so when we had to go back by I got an eyebrow from sil, so curious to see what happens there) and left my number for the social worker.

social worker called and was very nice. I explained who I was, which brother is my husband asked that she di t mention I talked to her and said that there is some confusion about mil’s aftercare. Social worker said, pending insurance, she will have two weeks rehab and can do it there at the hospital or in a nursing home.

I asked what happens after that, because I really feel like she is not getting enough care at home, that she is well loved but that there is definitely some denial and fil is starting to slip a little. I then asked her if she had heard how she broke her hip. She said no so I told her about her falling down the stairs, him taking her back up stairs, her falling down the stairs again, him taking her back upstairs, then him bringing her back down stairs in the morning, him getting her dressed and THEN calling sil. Then more hours and attempts at walking go by while they try to decide to take her to the hospital. I said it is not an abuse situation per se, but that he does not make good decisions about her care. I also told her that the morning after hip surgery my mil looks and is talking better than she has for MONTHS because she is eating well, has pain medication and on oxygen. 
The social worker explained that once the insurance says she’s done, the hospital’s responsibilities end and that any care after that will have to be arranged by us and that she is sorry she can’t do more. She also said that if they choose to do therapy at the hospital, it will be really hard to get her into nursing care after she is discharged BUT if they send her to a nursing home, it would be easier to keep her there if we/they decide to do that, so she recommends dh getting everyone on board for her to go to a nursing home. I asked if there is anyway she can help me and dh and she was so sweet but said she can’t really do anything. She said she has to contact insurance every four days to get permission for four more days of rehab and once the rehab is over she just doesn’t have any kind of authority to order homecare or anything.
And I kind of wish I didn’t know that because sil will side with fil and say no to the nursing home if they can. 

I dont know how to tell all of this to dh. He got short with me last night when he got home from the hospital when I was asking questions (he was tired and hadnt eaten in like 10 hours). Later he apologized and basically said I love you, I tried to ask good questions, I don’t know the answers to your questions and they are going to do what they want, so just leave it alone. Which then I went behind his back and did the opposite. And now I’m a wreck because I know this info but don’t know what to do with it and the social worker, while kind, is like I can’t help you, but feel free to call anytime.

Edited December 1, 2022 by saraha