Sold a Story podcast

[Clemsondana]

I posted this in the General Education section, but there are people in Chat who would be interested.  I recently found podcast called 'Sold a Story' on the history of reading instruction in schools.  I don't know if it will prompt discussion here, but spouse was wandering in and out as I listened and it was food for conversation even though he doesn't really spend a lot of time thinking about education issues.  It explained some of the weird things that I've come across in my volunteer time, so that was helpful.  

[Heartstrings]

I've listened to some clips on tiktok and plan on listening to it.  I didn't realize at first that it was a new podcast, its similar to one that came out a few years ago, Educate.  Looking it up just now it appears to be by the same people, so that makes sense. 

I'm glad its circulating again.  The more people get this information the more kids will be able to read.  The pro sight word people push back hard though.  I've been called a "phonics pusher" for encouraging explicit teaching. They get down right nasty to protect their method.  There's a lot of money tied up in that kind of curriculum. 

[Clemsondana]

I'll check out Educate - thanks for sharing!

 

[Lecka]

I just started, and it sounds good!

 

I already know, depressingly, some reading instruction is just so low in quality.  And yet it’s really popular! 
 

I can tell this podcast will have new information for me, though.

 

I think it may feel very personal to me because one of my sons struggled to learn to read, and I bought curriculum off the Internet recommended on this forum to help him.  And it seems like such a near miss, in a lot of ways.  I don’t know how I would have found any resources without the Internet, and the Internet hasn’t been around very long!  

 

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm listening, too. I heard the series the same reporter, Emily Hanford, did on the Educate podcast a few years ago and shared it with every parent I knew who had a kid in that age range in school.

Here's a link to one of the episodes of the original series: https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2018/09/10/hard-words-why-american-kids-arent-being-taught-to-read

[Hilltopmom]

Yes- this is great! As a teacher, I will say that I do know about Science of Reading and that we need to teach explicit phonics to kids. 
Unfortunately many (most) districts use curriculum from the top 3 curriculum companies that try to provide a “full” ELA curriculum at the expense of good quality phonics instruction. 
And we don’t have enough time to teach what they need, how they need it!

Edited October 27, 2022 by Hilltopmom

[El...]

Aaaaagh! This podcast is so intense! Thanks for referring it to us. 

It does sort of confirm a bias I have already, that schools aren't doing a good job for everyone and that kids are taking the blame when it's actually the instruction, not inadequacy on the kids' part. I homeschool for that very reason. So I'm trying to be aware of that presupposition in myself.  But dang, the stats are infuriating. This system is not just!

[Clemsondana]

I see these problems all the time when I volunteer - kids are sent home with stories for the parent (or me at the Boys and Girls Club) to read, and then the kid is supposed to read it back.  I had one kid who was supposed to read a story about a family in their living room watching television, and he was struggling with the CVC words and I kept thinking 'This is nuts!'.  

And, one of my own kids spent years in speech therapy with apraxia of speech.  When kid was evaluated, they said that most kids with speech in the 5th percentile couldn't read and they were surprised because kid was a great reader.  I realized that our preschool use of Hooked on Phonics was probably a cause.  Even though kid didn't say the words correctly in everyday speech, they could get close sounding them out and of course they heard me read the words so they put the right phonemes with the letters and learned it.  If kid had just looked at the first and last letters...apraxia often involves learing off last phonemes so without being systematically taught none of the words would look like anything that came out of kid's mouth.  Often kid's speech was better when reading because kid made all of the sounds in the word as it was read.  

[bookbard]

1 hour ago, Clemsondana said:

ften kid's speech was better when reading because kid made all of the sounds in the word as it was read.  

I used to teach a program called "Teaching Reading to Teach Talking". It was for preschoolers with speech issues and intellectual disabilities. It was based on research which found that the words the kids learned to read were the words they began to say. We saw great improvements in the kids. Unfortunately I don't think anyone is running anything similar these days in my part of the world. A lot of the knowledge has been lost. 

[Lecka]

This is for my older son, but he went to private OT in 3rd grade and she was shocked he could read and wanted to know what program I had used.  She said she had known one other family where there were 3 boys and they had learned to read after — I can’t remember, maybe driving an hour into a nearby city for tutoring?  The mom had not taught them iirc.  It was something where I thought “there is no way I could have possibly done that.”

 

She had his overall scores and said usually kids with some of his score profile were not able to read.

 

He also had many, many speech articulation issues.  
 

Both of my younger kids also got tubes in their ears around the time they turned 2, and they both had “silent” ear infections at the time (the doctor said).  So I wonder if we missed that with my older son. 
 

But it also runs in my husband’s family.  
 

It doesn’t run in my family, and some of my family members were suspicious of me and thought I should just wait, but then they did come around, lol.  
 

I still have a positive view and know my kids have had many positive experiences and been in positive environments very beneficial for them. (Edit — they have learned a lot in school, and I spent a lot of time at home on reading with my older son — but I felt like I would not have gotten to anything else with him because it took all my energy, and some extenuating circumstances too made me already have a hard time managing a lot of things.) 
 

And in good news, where I currently live I know a 1st grade teacher is doing Heggerty Phonemic Awareness as a daily block.  I have seen it on the schedule for my friend’s daughter.  I think this might be one of the first years they are using it, though.  

Edited October 28, 2022 by Lecka

[Heartstrings]

I think some of the reason the sight word side holds on so hard despite all of the evidence is because it allows them to pass blame to the parents.  If the kids can’t read it’s because parents aren’t reading enough at home or aren’t using rich enough language.  If you truly believe that kids will just pick up reading by being read to, then it can’t possibly be the school or teachers fault.  
 

Im getting this from reading comments online about this podcast.  Every one has teachers saying it’s the parents fault for not reading enough.  🤦‍♀️ As long as there is somewhere else to point the blame people are happy enough with the status quo. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Heartstrings

[Lecka]

I was told that, but at the same time I was told it was odd because my son had good comprehension and understanding of story structure, as if he had been read to at home.

 

But there was more context but still — ugh.

 

But I don’t think anyone planned this or did this on purpose.  
 

But I think it is effect of having something not work and then looking for a reason.  

[Ottakee]

9 hours ago, bookbard said:

I used to teach a program called "Teaching Reading to Teach Talking". It was for preschoolers with speech issues and intellectual disabilities. It was based on research which found that the words the kids learned to read were the words they began to say. We saw great improvements in the kids. Unfortunately I don't think anyone is running anything similar these days in my part of the world. A lot of the knowledge has been lost. 

I did the same type thing with my own son.  It worked.  

[Rachel]

I’ve enjoyed the first three episodes, thanks for the recommendation!

[wintermom]

Thanks for sharing this topic here. I have taught my 4 dc to read, and definitely used phonics to connect the visuals of written letters to the sounds they make (and eventually the numerous different sounds they make). I have a B Ed in primary/junior education, and at some point "learned" how to teach reading, but it was actually through teaching my children where I gained the most first-hand knowledge - albeit with a small sample size, so more 4 case studies. I have to say that there are aspects of phonics and "sight reading" or whole word recognition that are required when learning to read sentences fluently. Also, teaching large groups of different individuals to read is an enormous challenge, as each person is it their own developmental level. The theory that works with an individual in a psychology lab is not necessarily going to be practical in a classroom. I was able to teach each of my children in a laboratory-style situation while homeschooling my dc, teaching at their own developmental pace and readiness. Family friends' children were learning to read at different paces, particularly those whose children had dyslexia or other challenges. 

Another aspect to literacy that comes into play in most countries is the factor of multiple languages many/most children are learning simultaneously. This has a significant impact on learning to reading and speaking fluency, and there is a whole body of research on this. 

All this to say that teaching reading in schools is complex and teachers are often placed in situations that seem to be set up for failure. There are pressures from many sides to for teachers to be the magical fix for academic, psychological, emotional, economical, social and physical "success" of groups of students, and they often have very little control over how they are going to do this in terms of curriculum, class size, parental involvement, and support for students with learning and behavioural challenges. 

 

[EmilyGF]

So excited! My kids start rolling their eyes when I get on to the topic of phonics and inequality, though, so I need to be careful. I am excited that a news media respected by college professors is taking on this issue. This is awesome!

It breaks my heart that local schools teach words like "cat" and "on" as sight-words without any mention of letter sounds. Come on, these are easy to sound out! (A neighbor literally talked with me last night about helping her kid memorize "cat".) I have to hold myself back, though, because I can get really worked up. 

Emily

[Clemsondana]

Another day at the Boys and Girls Club, another day where you can see differences in how kids from different schools, classrooms, or families are taught to read.  I worked with 2 kids on reading today.  One kid was clearly guessing.  He recognized more words than last time, but when a longer word would come up he would get it right if it fit the context but if it wasn't what he was expecting he had no clue what to do, even if I covered up parts so that we could work on syllables.  He didn't know how to make the right sounds to match the letters.  The second student would sometimes stumble on words, but either by herself or with me covering up parts she'd usually work at the parts and figure it out.  It was fascinating and sad to watch.  The first kid would mix up house and home because he wasn't making any sounds and either made sense in context...until the story talked about housework and homework, which are not the same thing.  Meanwhile, the girl was so triumphant when she'd figure out a word, while all that he could do was mimic what I said and hopefully recognize it next time.  Aargh!!

[Rachel]

42 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

Another day at the Boys and Girls Club, another day where you can see differences in how kids from different schools, classrooms, or families are taught to read.  I worked with 2 kids on reading today.  One kid was clearly guessing.  He recognized more words than last time, but when a longer word would come up he would get it right if it fit the context but if it wasn't what he was expecting he had no clue what to do, even if I covered up parts so that we could work on syllables.  He didn't know how to make the right sounds to match the letters.  The second student would sometimes stumble on words, but either by herself or with me covering up parts she'd usually work at the parts and figure it out.  It was fascinating and sad to watch.  The first kid would mix up house and home because he wasn't making any sounds and either made sense in context...until the story talked about housework and homework, which are not the same thing.  Meanwhile, the girl was so triumphant when she'd figure out a word, while all that he could do was mimic what I said and hopefully recognize it next time.  Aargh!!

Are you allowed to bring in curriculum and do you work with the same kids every week?

[Clemsondana]

16 minutes ago, Rachel said:

Are you allowed to bring in curriculum and do you work with the same kids every week?

I could bring anything, but the kids usually only come if they have homework.  I've volunteered at a couple of after-school places and it's the same thing - the kids will come to get help with homework, but don't see the point of coming to get help. Meanwhile, I keep thinking what could be done for them with regular effort, starting at the beginning.  But, it's mostly like playing whack-a-mole, helping with what they need and cramming in the underlying skills when you can.  There's a girl who likely has some developmental issues and is doing simpler work than others her age, likely held back at some point or points.  But, somebody has taught her phonics.  Her reading is still simple, but she will sound out words.  Today we worked on counting by 2s since her math just had multiplication by 2s and 5s and she can already do the 5s.  The kids were all really sweet today and I just want to scream at how some of them are being taught.  I bought a set of beginning readers that I used over the summer with some students a few years ago, and I've debated bringing them but after my strugglers are done with their homework they don't have the energy left to do more work.  

[Rachel]

Oh that sounds so hard and heartbreaking! I’m glad you are helping and doing what you can. 

[kbutton]

On 10/28/2022 at 12:02 AM, bookbard said:

I used to teach a program called "Teaching Reading to Teach Talking". It was for preschoolers with speech issues and intellectual disabilities. It was based on research which found that the words the kids learned to read were the words they began to say. We saw great improvements in the kids. Unfortunately I don't think anyone is running anything similar these days in my part of the world. A lot of the knowledge has been lost. 

My son remediated some of his auditory processing difficulties when he started reading. It didn't fix everything, but he taught himself to listen for and say vowel sounds with much greater accuracy. Before reading, he thought that thin, then, and than were the same word with different meanings discerned by context. He honestly thought I was playing a trick on him when I put those words on a whiteboard. He has mild apraxia (produced speech, but his articulation errors were attributed to motor issues), APD, and mild dyslexia. 

I had a professor with profound dyslexia, and he had some really wild examples of word combinations he could not separate into individual words while hearing them until he learned to read--seems like some adjective/noun pairs were a package deal in his brain. I don't remember all the specifics, but IIRC for whatever words he had stuck together, it was like every time you used the word, it had a different ending. So, take pretty, for example; He would think the next word was still the same word. Prettytree, prettycolor, prettyhorse, etc. Crazily enough, he was an education professor, and he promoted whole word reading. Ugh! I am not sure what studies showed at the time (I haven't listened to this podcast yet to see how far back it goes--I have read some articles people have posted here about the issue in the past), so maybe it was unclear.

Anyway, I had learned phonics growing up, and I remembered that the struggling readers who learned phonics in my class read better than a lot of the good readers in other classes, though it did even out better later on. I also know that most schools/teachers I knew about that had kids reading reasonably well by the end of Kindergarten also used phonics. It made me very skeptical of his support of whole word reading.

On 10/27/2022 at 12:33 PM, Hilltopmom said:

And we don’t have enough time to teach what they need, how they need it!

I am sure this is the case, but what I don't understand is how the system justifies just rolling right on without fixing it. The problem snowballs. That has to be less efficient than holding up the works early on to fix the problem.

Obviously, that's not going to be fixed at the individual teacher level alone, but not fixing it is like letting a really leaky roof continue to leak.

[kbutton]

So, I am listening now, and I have a question...how many of you remember learning to read? It's not the first time I've heard a parent say that they have no idea how children are taught to read, but I am curious how common that is? I remember learning to read quite vividly, which is one reason I determined to use the same curriculum with my second son (first one went to school K-2). I figured I could use it more flexibly if I already remembered big portions of it.

[HomeAgain]

17 minutes ago, kbutton said:

So, I am listening now, and I have a question...how many of you remember learning to read? It's not the first time I've heard a parent say that they have no idea how children are taught to read, but I am curious how common that is? I remember learning to read quite vividly, which is one reason I determined to use the same curriculum with my second son (first one went to school K-2). I figured I could use it more flexibly if I already remembered big portions of it.

I remember quite well.  We used Reading Mastery/DISTAR, with the hand signals and everything.  The lesson times are quite distinct in my mind.  I remember what our reading books looked like through 5th grade, and that we didn't use a reading program in 6th. 

My own child's "reading lessons" in school were incidental.  They were taught sounds and sight words throughout the day, but there was no specific curriculum they could hold and touch. "Reading books" were non-specified.  I think not remembering reading being taught is consistent with an approach like this.

[kbutton]

Just now, HomeAgain said:

I think not remembering reading being taught is consistent with an approach like this.

That makes sense. I wonder how many parents of current littles were taught this way vs. phonics.

I would not be surprised if it's a case of less and less phonics over time vs. a totally switch. Teachers who are fluent in phonics would almost certainly incorporate phonics into lesson consciously or unconsciously (for example, teaching how to sound out mat when it turns up on a sight words list). Over time, less of that happens, but I bet some people in some places/times got more of a hybrid even when phonics was de-emphasized.

 

[Rachel]

26 minutes ago, kbutton said:

So, I am listening now, and I have a question...how many of you remember learning to read? It's not the first time I've heard a parent say that they have no idea how children are taught to read, but I am curious how common that is? I remember learning to read quite vividly, which is one reason I determined to use the same curriculum with my second son (first one went to school K-2). I figured I could use it more flexibly if I already remembered big portions of it.

I vaguely remember learning to read. I was really young, around 3.5. My dad had been taught to read with a “shape method” and recognized that was a terrible technique. He had a masters in education and was told it was impossible for a 3yo to learn to read, so he used me to prove that theory wrong. He taught me phonics, I suspect I must have shown signs of being ready.
 

Once I was reading basic words he took me to a tutor who had her PhD in education and was developing education software. She didn’t believe him when he told her I could read, and while they were meeting I starting reading her filing cabinets. She agreed to work with me and cemented those phonics lessons. What I remember was all the games we played together.

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, Rachel said:

I vaguely remember learning to read. I was really young, around 3.5. My dad had been taught to read with a “shape method” and recognized that was a terrible technique. He had a masters in education and was told it was impossible for a 3yo to learn to read, so he used me to prove that theory wrong. He taught me phonics, I suspect I must have shown signs of being ready.
 

Once I was reading basic words he took me to a tutor who had her PhD in education and was developing education software. She didn’t believe him when he told her I could read, and while they were meeting I starting reading her filing cabinets. She agreed to work with me and cemented those phonics lessons. What I remember was all the games we played together.

That's really cool, assuming you enjoyed it. 🙂 

I had one that wanted to read at 2 (not kidding!), but he is a B and W thinker, and he took something I said to an extreme and got mad about it when it wasn't what he thought (2e ASD). He got the basics in Montessori preschool (phonics), and then he was a really good reader by the end of the summer after K (phonics + bribery of the summer reading program to solidify the K teaching). I was never so pleased with a teacher as when he was having his kindergarten readiness appointment, and the teacher told him to stop telling people he couldn't quite read yet just because he couldn't read everything. His confidence went through the roof, and he stopped seeing his errors and started seeing his successes. 

[Jenny in Florida]

49 minutes ago, kbutton said:

So, I am listening now, and I have a question...how many of you remember learning to read? It's not the first time I've heard a parent say that they have no idea how children are taught to read, but I am curious how common that is? I remember learning to read quite vividly, which is one reason I determined to use the same curriculum with my second son (first one went to school K-2). I figured I could use it more flexibly if I already remembered big portions of it.

I do not remember a time when I could not read. I suspect I was one of those weirdos who learned by more or less absorbing text around me. I grew up in a literature-rich household with parents who were both readers. I have a very vivid memory of being in my crib and reading a Dr. Suess book. (For the record, this was in an era in which kids often slept in cribs much longer than is typical today, but it definitely puts me no older than maybe four.)

I remember being "taught" phonics in second grade, but I just thought it was kind of an easy, fun game, because I was already a pretty fluent reader.

[Clemsondana]

My parents said that they found out that I could read, and hadn't just memorized my books, when I read the back of the newspaper when one of them was reading it.  I was probably around 3, maybe 4.  I don't remember learning to read, but about the only TV that I was allowed was Sesame Street, Zoom, and Electric Company.  I have vivid memories of those face outlines saying 's-at---sat' and counting in English and Spanish, so i probably learned from that. 

[Frances]

I don’t really remember learning to read or any explicit instruction, although I’m pretty sure it didn’t start until first grade. I do vividly remember our reading books and I’ve seen them since in antique stores. I loved, loved, loved the books and early in the school year I would take my book home and read the entire thing. I also remember in the upper grades doing the SRA program where you read a passage on a card and then took a quiz and we used to race to see who could finish the most. I think the cards were color coded and kept in big boxes.

[Jenny in Florida]

15 minutes ago, Frances said:

I also remember in the upper grades doing the SRA program where you read a passage on a card and then took a quiz and we used to race to see who could finish the most. I think the cards were color coded and kept in big boxes.

I have very fond memories of the SRA cards, too. That was one of the things we were allowed to do if we finished other assignments early, and I loved them. Like phonics instruction in earlier grades, they felt like a game to me. 

[forty-two]

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

I had a professor with profound dyslexia, and he had some really wild examples of word combinations he could not separate into individual words while hearing them until he learned to read--seems like some adjective/noun pairs were a package deal in his brain.... Crazily enough, he was an education professor, and he promoted whole word reading. Ugh! I am not sure what studies showed at the time (I haven't listened to this podcast yet to see how far back it goes--I have read some articles people have posted here about the issue in the past), so maybe it was unclear.

The podcast is specifically talking about three cueing - the theory that good readers don't process the individual sound/letter correspondences but instead use various cues to make predictions about the text, namely context/meaning cues (does it fit with the meaning of the sentence/story/picture), grammar cues (what part of speech are you expecting to go here), and visual cues (does it fit with the letters).  Per the podcast, three-cueing came about in the 50s and 60s; prior to that the main options were phonics and the look-say method of whole word teaching (Dick and Jane, for example).  The podcast descibes the difference between three-cueing readers and look-say readers (namely, three-cueing uses much longer and phonetically complicated words much earlier, because they are conceptually easy - "elephant", eg.)  WRT relevant research disproving the three-cueing theory about how good readers read, the timeframe was 70s and 80s, but even into the 90s it wasn't well-known in elementary education, even though it was well established in cognitive science.

WRT people who have difficulties reading supporting whole word teaching, my mom's not in education or anything, but her personal experience was that phonics makes no sense to her (she can't use phonetic pronunciations in dictionaries) and that if she'd been taught phonics instead of whole word (of the look-say variety), she'd never have learned to read.  She actually reads and spells very well, but there's several words that she never connected the spoken word with the written word for decades (such as awed - she read it as a-wed).  But I have the same auditory processing issues she does (I learned whole word very young, and used my reading ability to work backwards with phonics activities in school), as do my kids; the kids all flunked the Barton pre-screening, indicating that they didn't have the auditory processing skill necessary to learn to read from phonics teaching.  I had to work really hard to remediate them and build up those skills (remediated myself in the process).  AKA my mom might not have been wrong in her self-analysis - regular phonics teaching very well might have been a disaster for her.

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

So, I am listening now, and I have a question...how many of you remember learning to read?

My mom remembers being taught, via whole word in school.  I do not remember, probably because my mom taught me very young (using the Teach Your Baby to Read flashcard method), probably 15-24mo.  Per family stories, I was reading words I hadn't been taught before I turned three.  I remember reading chapter books when I was five, but as far as I'm concerned, I've always known how to read.  I'm not 100% certain what all was done in school.  In 2nd grade we definitely did all these phonics sheets, and I remember not understanding how you could do them if you couldn't read already (in retrospect, because my auditory processing was so bad - I just thought I "wasn't an auditory learner").  But in 1st we had reading groups, and I was in the group that already knew how to read, so we just read through readers together - Frog and Toad, and such.  I don't know what was done in other reading groups.

Interestingly, though my oldest was 6 when we started reading lessons, and they were extremely hard work for the both of us, she doesn't particularly remember learning how to read.  Even more interestingly, despite the fact she was *horrible* at spelling throughout elementary, and we worked so very hard at remediating auditory processing as part of learning to spell - years of hard work - she's practically forgotten all that, too.  She's actually good at spelling now, and all the blood, sweat, and tears that went into getting there, well, it hasn't stuck in her brain at all - she's forgotten all the emotions that went with and most of the details.  And my middle cried in 2nd grade over worrying about reading in front of her Sunday School class, and she doesn't remember any of that, either - having successfully learned to read in the end, and not really experienced any trauma other than hard work in the process, it's like it never happened <shrug>.

Edited November 1, 2022 by forty-two

[bookbard]

I was one of those kids who taught themselves to read before school, so I don't ever remember not reading. My eldest daughter was the same, was reading fluently before turning 4. My son needed consistent lessons from me in order to read fluently by 6, but he has a pretty wacky memory, doesn't remember many events from his early years, so I doubt he'd remember not being able to read. Interestingly enough his language scores are off the charts and he's a more adventurous reader than my daughter, who tends to stick to the series she likes. 

[Heartstrings]

4 hours ago, kbutton said:

So, I am listening now, and I have a question...how many of you remember learning to read? It's not the first time I've heard a parent say that they have no idea how children are taught to read, but I am curious how common that is? I remember learning to read quite vividly, which is one reason I determined to use the same curriculum with my second son (first one went to school K-2). I figured I could use it more flexibly if I already remembered big portions of it.

I have no memory of learning to read.  I do know when my love of reading took off and I started to identify as being a “reader” very vividly, my great-aunt gifted me 2 BabySitters Club books once when I visited her house and I was hooked ever after.  That was around 3rd grade.  I had to have known how to read prior to that but I don’t remember it.  

I remember not being able to read and wanting to learn around age 3, because I remember the book.  My mom says I eventually just memorized that book.  
 

I do remember doing math drills in early elementary though.  

Edited November 1, 2022 by Heartstrings

[ElizabethB]

Today's episode is worth listening to. The $ spent on programs proven not to work. The indoctrination into the programs is strong, the science is ignored.

I always get mad and sad for the children who suffer yet could have easily learned to read if taught well.

It's so hard to overcome the guessing habits caused by the sight words and predictable readers, it takes a lot of word lists and nonsense words. It's easier to teach the phonics they are missing than to undo the guessing habits.

[EmilyGF]

Please listen to the podcast even if you already know a lot about phonics and history of teaching reading.

I commented upthread, but just recently started listening and it is SO WORTH IT.

I am able to talk about the issue much more coherently now, and the personal stories are worth it.

Emily

[Shoeless]

On 11/1/2022 at 10:59 AM, kbutton said:

So, I am listening now, and I have a question...how many of you remember learning to read? It's not the first time I've heard a parent say that they have no idea how children are taught to read, but I am curious how common that is? I remember learning to read quite vividly, which is one reason I determined to use the same curriculum with my second son (first one went to school K-2). I figured I could use it more flexibly if I already remembered big portions of it.

 

DH, DS, and I were all self-taught/spontaneous readers. I remember the moment I realized I could read, as well as when we realized DS was reading. I was 5 when I started reading, DS was about 3 & 1/2. He didn't talk much until around that age, so he might have been able to read earlier than that and we had no idea.

I have no idea how to teaching reading to kids.

[ElizabethB]

19 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

 

DH, DS, and I were all self-taught/spontaneous readers. I remember the moment I realized I could read, as well as when we realized DS was reading. I was 5 when I started reading, DS was about 3 & 1/2. He didn't talk much until around that age, so he might have been able to read earlier than that and we had no idea.

I have no idea how to teaching reading to kids.

It's actually very simple, it takes a lot of work to screw it up. Pick a good phonics program and teach it, don't teach hundreds of sight words as wholes, don't use predictable readers that encourage guessing.

There are a ton of great options.

Phonics Pathways, OPG to Reading, CLE language Arts, all cheap and good options.

Free to print Word Mastery:

http://donpotter.net/pdf/word_mastery_typed.pdf

There are other good homeschool friendly programs out there, most more expensive, some not. Most homeschool parents know about and choose good programs, ask around for more options.

I have 2 pages to help.

How to teach a beginner to read:

http://thephonicspage.org/On Reading/newstudents.html

How to teach blending:

http://thephonicspage.org/On Reading/blendingwords.html

For those taught with balanced literacy, you need to add nonsense words to help overcome the guessing habit, I have free lessons that include nonsense words and teach phonics to the 12th grade level:

http://thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

Edited November 10, 2022 by ElizabethB

[Ottakee]

I have always thought that when I retire I would love to volunteer to teach reading to at risk students a few days a week.  If I can get students with LDs and IQs in the 50s reading well, I think I have a good chance at being effective with regular Ed students…..all with my systematic phonics instruction.

[ElizabethB]

32 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

I have always thought that when I retire I would love to volunteer to teach reading to at risk students a few days a week.  If I can get students with LDs and IQs in the 50s reading well, I think I have a good chance at being effective with regular Ed students…..all with my systematic phonics instruction.

You'd do great! It's really easy with a good program and the background phonics knowledge.

I have an article about the how and why of teaching older students, with good programs at the end. Older students are capable of 2+ syllable words early on, there are a lot of free and inexpensive resources that have those type of words while shoring up phonics basics missed in school. It's really random what phonics they know and don't know, best to review everything while working on upper level words. It's harder to undo the guessing habits than to teach the missing phonics, that takes time, nonsense words, and word lists. 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/building-good-reading-habits-liz-brown/

[TechWife]

On 11/1/2022 at 11:59 AM, kbutton said:

So, I am listening now, and I have a question...how many of you remember learning to read? It's not the first time I've heard a parent say that they have no idea how children are taught to read, but I am curious how common that is? I remember learning to read quite vividly, which is one reason I determined to use the same curriculum with my second son (first one went to school K-2). I figured I could use it more flexibly if I already remembered big portions of it.

I do not remember learning to read, but I remember reading in my kindergarten classroom. 

[Shoeless]

6 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

It's actually very simple, it takes a lot of work to screw it up. Pick a good phonics program and teach it, don't teach hundreds of sight words as wholes, don't use predictable readers that encourage guessing.

There are a ton of great options.

Phonics Pathways, OPG to Reading, CLE language Arts, all cheap and good options.

Free to print Word Mastery:

http://donpotter.net/pdf/word_mastery_typed.pdf

There are other good homeschool friendly programs out there, most more expensive, some not. Most homeschool parents know about and choose good programs, ask around for more options.

I have 2 pages to help.

How to teach a beginner to read:

http://thephonicspage.org/On Reading/newstudents.html

How to teach blending:

http://thephonicspage.org/On Reading/blendingwords.html

For those taught with balanced literacy, you need to add nonsense words to help overcome the guessing habit, I have free lessons that include nonsense words and teach phonics to the 12th grade level:

http://thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

I'll pass this along the next time someone asks me about reading instruction. 

I'm really a terrible homeschool instructor because DS is really self-motivated. I feel like I've hardly taught him anything.  I just bankroll all the books he reads! 🤣

[Zinnia2]

I was a "late" reader by my own internal standards, and I can remember the feeling of frustration of not being able to read.  And then one day in October of 1st grade, I looked up at the signs outside the car window, and I could read everything.  I grew up in a college town, and the first thing I read was a sign outside a frat house that said, "Clemson sucks."  LOL  

Until I had my own kids, I thought that that was how reading worked....You didn't know, and then the magic happened, and one day, you read.  For my first and fourth kids, it was exactly that.  I taught phonics, and then, one day, they went from reading nothing to reading chapter books.   My second and third are dyslexic, and they have required a lot more explicit, direct teaching.  They have gone very, very slowly, baby step by baby step.  It's been interesting to see their brains put it together.

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Zinnia2

[*****]

I am finally listening to this series, thanks so much for posting it. I am a certified teacher, stayed home with my kids to homeschool. I taught them to read through phonics based approaches (even though 1 child proved to me that some kids are basically true sight word readers). I was always taught to teach to their strengths and remediate their weakness, which I did with her.  I eventually became a Barton tutor when they were grown. Anyway, after 20 years of being out of the school system, I went back as a reading intervention teacher (I felt I needed to know more about how the kids were taught in schools because I had so many parents that said to me their kids just weren't being taught).

Yes, the idea, at least 7 years ago was 'Balanced Literacy'.  As part of the remedial team for each student in Tier 2,  I gave extra practice with a phonics approach, and an aide focused on a sight word approach, often using the books the lady is talking about in episode 1, I remember pulling them off the shelf and skimming through them and knew it was not enough practice for those specific words, when the next book went on to others, and didn't allow for practice on the previous.   So I didn't use the books much.  I preferred using Dr. Seuss and Eastman's books, ACTUAL books, that had a lot of repetition. And there was more of a story, where the A-Z books really were not 'stories and had no plot.'  I could never understand why the school didn't understand that! (I peeked ahead  on Sold a Story and see there is an episode on Lucy Calkins.) I remember teachers in the school mentioning her name. A lot. Again, I had been away from education so long, I had no idea who she was. Boy, I am glad I missed that era! 

Anyway, just as a few comments:

-I am glad I homeschooled during that time in education, for the sake of my children!

-I remember when I went back to teaching and learned about the 'just guess what the word might be'. I thought, what? I didn't learn this  while in college. Where did this come from? Now I know.

-In listening to the parents' frustrations in this podcast, I remember thinking that even when teachers may have known that phonics was needed in schools, sometimes when they are given a curriculum, they are told to use it. This is the sad part. That when schools spend thousands on a curriculum, to only find it isn't a good fit, they are stuck with it for many years. This also happened in this school, even though they kept wondering what their missing 'piece' was to instruction.

Interesting podcast! And to think, had we not been quarantined during the pandemic, this podcast may not have existed, Parents had the time to be home to be with their kids and finally saw what was going on!

 

[ElizabethB]

The last episode is out. 

They are looking for reactions, especially from children, for a bonus episode. 

Sold A Story Website with podcasts, other links

Quote

We're thinking about making a bonus episode with your reactions to the podcast. If you have thoughts, questions, or a story to share, record a voice memo and email it to us at soldastory@americanpublicmedia.org. You can also leave a voicemail: (612) 888-READ (7323). Adults and children welcome.

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by ElizabethB

[ElizabethB]

On 11/10/2022 at 4:02 PM, Ottakee said:

I have always thought that when I retire I would love to volunteer to teach reading to at risk students a few days a week.  If I can get students with LDs and IQs in the 50s reading well, I think I have a good chance at being effective with regular Ed students…..all with my systematic phonics instruction.

You should email or call in and tell your girls' story! It's so powerful and motivational!!

"We're thinking about making a bonus episode with your reactions to the podcast. If you have thoughts, questions, or a story to share, record a voice memo and email it to us at soldastory@americanpublicmedia.org. You can also leave a voicemail: (612) 888-READ (7323). Adults and children welcome."

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by ElizabethB

[kbutton]

Rooted in Language is planning to discuss this podcast series in January. It sounds like they will post those discussions on their Facebook page. 

[*****]

Please remind us if you know when it comes out, I would be interested in hearing more. 

[kbutton]

On 12/8/2022 at 10:29 PM, ***** said:

Please remind us if you know when it comes out, I would be interested in hearing more. 

First post: Rooted Takeaways Episode 1: https://www.facebook.com/rootedinlanguage/posts/pfbid022mqwviNvpArRHzJ8vpHtDTrAhpojcJ75j9gs94FXGSCQkCoDDfy4DKMLyJ8orLZpl 

[ScoutTN]

Bumping bc I just now got around to listening to the podcasts. 
 

I learned to read before school, but I don’t remember it. I do remember having a first grade teacher who ignored the whole word reading curriculum on the classroom shelves and taught phonics, in the early 1970’s. We could read the Dick and Jane books for fun if we wanted to, but who would choose them when we could get real books instead? 

I wonder about the massive historical blind spot in the whole reading thing. It’s as if no one ever learned to read and write English before the mid 20th century in these discussions. But for hundreds and hundreds of years, parents and teachers taught kids to read with phonics. 
 

I do think that one benefit of the pandemic has been parents realizing that they are the primary educators of their children, regardless of what form of schooling they choose. 
 

Off to  go find my FB login (I rarely go there.) so I can read the spin-off discussions.

[math teacher]

I'm listening to this now, and it is really eye-opening. I learned to read with phonics, and I am glad that the school where I teach uses phonics. All K-2/3 reading teachers in Texas are going through Reading Academy, and TEA is reviewing curriculum to make sure it aligns to the Science of Reading.