Can you help me think through how to deal with my mom?

[Melissa in Australia]

Hugs

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

If my children were asking to see Grandma because they loved going up to see her, that would change things.   

My question was - 

 

4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

She has made it clear who her favorite children and grandchildren are, and we aren't them!  

if your children were the "favorites" - and other grandchildren were as excluded as your children are (in favor of your kids) - would you still OK with that?

[DawnM]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

My question was - 

 

if your children were the "favorites" - and other grandchildren were as excluded as your children are (in favor of your kids) - would you still OK with that?

no

Edited October 3, 2022 by DawnM

[SKL]

It depends so much on your mom's personality - how she'd react to honest feedback.

Ideally, if she said something that bothers you this much after so much time, it might help to just tell her how you heard her words and how that made you feel at the time.  Maybe she'd be able to see your side of things and apologize and you could move on.

But my experience is with folks that really can't take it if they are told about something hurtful they said in the past.  So in that case, I'd just move on with the level of contact I was comfortable with, and hope for healing in the long run.  I would not cut contact with a parent/grandparent.

[ktgrok]

Do you think her attitude toward DS2 was because of some (very very ) misguided love toward you - out of concern it was too much for you and she was worried about you? It would still be awful, but that motive would likely let me find more room for her in my life than some other possibilities. 

[ktgrok]

10 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Your mom may feel that way but not all do. It has more to do with relationships than it does legalities. 
It may hurt @Baseballandhockeybut it isn’t really a wrong choice. 

Yes, it is. 

An adopted grandchild is still a grandchild.

 

[Drama Llama]

7 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Do you think her attitude toward DS2 was because of some (very very ) misguided love toward you - out of concern it was too much for you and she was worried about you? It would still be awful, but that motive would likely let me find more room for her in my life than some other possibilities. 

You know, I sort of get the original objection.  I get why she objected to that decision.  I mean my family certainly hasn’t recovered from it.

But other decisions I don’t get.  Not keeping his pictures.  Not wanting to give him presents (this one she did back off on when I was clear his brothers would not receive any presents from her if he didn’t). Not mentioning his existence.  Those aren’t things that protect me, they are things that are just hurtful.  

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Baseballandhockey said:

You know, I sort of get the original objection.  I get why she objected to that decision.  I mean my family certainly hasn’t recovered from it.

But other decisions I don’t get.  Not keeping his pictures.  Not wanting to give him presents (this one she did back off on when I was clear his brothers would not receive any presents from her if he didn’t). Not mentioning his existence.  Those aren’t things that protect me, they are things that are just hurtful.  

Ugh, ok, yeah....pretending he doesn't exist is just....weird. And hurtful. I'm so sorry. 

[Innisfree]

The most charitable explanation I would be able to come up with is that she is terrified— petrified might be more accurate— by painful emotions. It sounds like she wanted to distance you from pain, and then fell back to distancing herself. You would be better positioned to assess whether that fits with other attitudes and behavior you’ve seen. 
 

Even if that guess is correct, it’s hard to feel much sympathy for a person who would send presents to two children while ignoring a third.

Makes me wonder what her childhood was like. She sounds seriously damaged in some way.

[Drama Llama]

4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Ugh, ok, yeah....pretending he doesn't exist is just....weird. And hurtful. I'm so sorry. 

She has photo albums she keeps of each of my other boys.  DS1's album only has pictures that he's in, but for example, the picture of him on his first day of preschool also has our neighbor kid who was in the same class, or there are pictures of him and DS3 with their Easter baskets or Christmas stocking.  Same for DS3's.  Lots of pictures of him, but DS3 is definitely well represented, and there are friends sprinkled in as well.  When my kids visited they'd sit with her and go through the books, and it would provide a structured way for them to tell her about the year as they talked about each picture she'd added. 

I understand that maybe she didn't get around to putting together an album for DS2.  She's aged a lot since she started them, and maybe it was too much.  I mean, there are tons of parents with baby books for their first born, and not the third kid to join the family.  

But when I visited, there were zero pictures of DS2 in DS1's book.  She had kept the book up, but whereas for every Halloween before DS2 came, and after he died, she put a picture of both boys together, she didn't choose the picture of all 3 boys in their matching costumes as the one to add.  Instead, out of the pictures I sent (a posed picture of all 3 kids together, and some candids of each of the 3 kids), she picked only pictures of them by themselves.  

In DS3's book, there is one group picture of all the people members who came to his baptism, and DS2 is there in his first mother's arms.  So, a little tiny baby head, in a sea of friends and relatives.  It's the only picture of him she has, and I'm not sure she's aware she has it.  

How does that protect me?  Or protect my kids?  Does she think that they'll just forget him and so it won't hurt?  

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

The most charitable explanation I would be able to come up with is that she is terrified— petrified might be more accurate— by painful emotions. It sounds like she wanted to distance you from pain, and then fell back to distancing herself. You would be better positioned to assess whether that fits with other attitudes and behavior you’ve seen. 
 

Even if that guess is correct, it’s hard to feel much sympathy for a person who would send presents to two children while ignoring a third.

Makes me wonder what her childhood was like. She sounds seriously damaged in some way.

Ok, I missed this part.  This type of stuff is just beyond the pale.

[Innisfree]

3 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

How does that protect me? 

It sounds like paralysis in the face of emotion that stresses her. Certainly the effect isn’t at all helpful to any of you. It was only in the initial decision about adoption that I meant she might have been trying to protect you. And honestly, even that part sounds like reflexive avoidance.

[Innisfree]

I mean, has she historically stepped up to help others who are in the hospital, or in pain and in need of comfort? Or does she avoid those situations? (Obviously no need to answer here)

[Drama Llama]

2 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

The most charitable explanation I would be able to come up with is that she is terrified— petrified might be more accurate— by painful emotions. It sounds like she wanted to distance you from pain, and then fell back to distancing herself. You would be better positioned to assess whether that fits with other attitudes and behavior you’ve seen. 
 

Even if that guess is correct, it’s hard to feel much sympathy for a person who would send presents to two children while ignoring a third.

Makes me wonder what her childhood was like. She sounds seriously damaged in some way.

To be clear, she didn't send two presents.  I've always asked that she runs presents by me, because there have been other issues.  In the month before the first Christmas, she had told me she had an idea for my oldest, but not for my youngest, and I sent her a list of ideas for the two younger kids.  She was like "I'm supposed to get him a present?" and I said yes, that he'd be home by Christmas, and that if she wanted the other two to open presents from her she needed to send one to him.  And she complied.  Every birthday and Christmas he was alive, I sent her a list of ideas that I felt were roughly equivalent to what she was getting my other two kids, and she sent me a check to purchase one.  That's in keeping with what she does for my youngest.  We have had issues with what she chooses, and it often takes some negotiation to find something she'll pay for, but there was always a gift.  

[Clemsondana]

I don't have advice, but I wanted to share a somewhat similar story that was just a coping issue.  My parents met as teens and have been married a long time.  Several years ago, mom had debilitating abdominal pain and she spent most of a summer laying in odd positions while doctors tried to figure out what it was.  It turned out to be a torn muscle, treatable with cortisone shots, rest, and PT, but until an ER doc figured it out, they bounced her between specialists and debated cancer of various internal organs.  I have no idea how the medical community pulled off this fiasco, but the point is my parents spent a couple of months very scared.  

Mom and I also learned something.  My dad, who goes to plays and concerts that he doesn't want to go to, and who helps mom do church decorations with minimal complaint, as long as she's happy, can not deal with infirmity.  I would go over a couple of days a week and I'd bring food and sit in mom's bedroom so that we could eat together.  She'd say that it was the first time she'd eaten with somebody in days.  Dad would come home, bring her something to eat, and then go watch TV.  He just couldn't deal with her being in pain.  A year later, when she slipped on a wet floor and broke a bone, his response was similar.  This time we weren't scared, but there were a few months of joint PT.  He would get frustrated that she couldn't do her usual stuff.  It was truly bizarre to see.  I've watched him shiver through cold things because he gave me or mom his coat, he does little things like peel oranges for her, he takes heavy thing from her hands and carries it for her and they sit down and talk over dinner at night.  In other words, he's not selfish or unthoughtful or uncaring, and he adores her.  But, he just can't deal with some of the hard things.  I have a few other relatives who are the same way.  I don't really understand it, but could your mom be doing something like this?  It's not so much about it being OK or not OK, or hurtful or not hurtful, but about it being all that she can manage with...limited emotional reserves, maybe?  

[bolt.]

I might be wrong about this (and I often am) so, when I ask these things, please regard it as something to ponder and ask yourself as part of your inner life -- that might or might not be true, but it's something that is true for some people. It's not as an accusation.

What I'm seeing is that you kinda know how to "deal with her". You have strategies that have been working throughout the much harder phases of this journey. You've got a fair handle on boundaries. You've shown that you can usually find that elusive middle ground between being a good daughter and not letting her get away with too much crud. You've been doing that for a while now.

So, I'm wondering why you have this question that you want to explore now. My guess is maybe you have some breathing space now (?) or some precipitating event (?) and you've noticed acutely that the relationship the way it is seems superficial and one-sided, and that you don't love that she seems to get rewarded all the time, no matter what she dishes out. It's unjust. The relationship is inconsistent with how much pain she adds (and has added) to your life.

Is your primary motive maybe coming from the 'craving justice' family of feelings? Do you sometimes kind of want her to 'pay for what she has done'? Or maybe just 'stop getting away with crud'? Do you want to even things out, or tip the scales to reflect some more equal distribution of give-and-take? Do you want her to be forced to make amends or make things right somehow for the mistreatment of your son? Do you want some sort of not-quite-revenge but maybe consequences or punishment to come and land on her doorstep? Does she need to be 'taught a lesson' of what she can't get away with?

If you are feeling those 'craving justice' things, they can sometimes be a bit ugly on the inside. That's okay. We are all a bit ugly on the inside when we are being honest with ourselves. Be gentle and compassionate if you find part of yourself really feels that way. It's only human! But once you see it, you can bravely explore the roots of that feeling, and you can kind of 'control for' how that set of feelings might misdirect you in your relationship choices and actions. You don't actually want to let a hidden desire to 'hurt her back' take control of these important decisions. Knowing that feeling is there helps it not sneak into the driver's seat while you aren't looking.

I understand that's a really vulnerable thing to be asked about on a message board! I'm not expecting a response. And, again, I don't have any real idea whether you might or might not be feeling these things. I just know that some people would be (and others wouldn't be) and who knows which group you would be in? I don't mean to accuse you of having this particular dark side... but all of us have a dark side, and I don't think it's horrible to talk about it or explore it, whatever kind of dark side each of us has. (But maybe not on the open internet!)

[LaughingCat]

On 10/1/2022 at 7:36 PM, Scarlett said:

I am 57. So maybe this is my age speaking….but I don’t see anything so horrible about your mother.  Although I respect you taking on a child that was not yours that doesn’t magically translate to grandchild for your mom. I thought that the other day about the portraits.

You might never have a super close warm relationship but I also don’t think you need to cut her off. And your kids are old enough to have their own relationships with her.  

This is when I need a "100% disagree" button 🙄    Adopted kids ARE real grandchildren --and it's the grandparent that should be thrown out of the family if they can't accept that.

(and 100% disagree that it's a generational thing like the "I am 57" implies too) 

[Terabith]

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

I might be wrong about this (and I often am) so, when I ask these things, please regard it as something to ponder and ask yourself as part of your inner life -- that might or might not be true, but it's something that is true for some people. It's not as an accusation.

What I'm seeing is that you kinda know how to "deal with her". You have strategies that have been working throughout the much harder phases of this journey. You've got a fair handle on boundaries. You've shown that you can usually find that elusive middle ground between being a good daughter and not letting her get away with too much crud. You've been doing that for a while now.

So, I'm wondering why you have this question that you want to explore now. My guess is maybe you have some breathing space now (?) or some precipitating event (?) and you've noticed acutely that the relationship the way it is seems superficial and one-sided, and that you don't love that she seems to get rewarded all the time, no matter what she dishes out. It's unjust. The relationship is inconsistent with how much pain she adds (and has added) to your life.

Is your primary motive maybe coming from the 'craving justice' family of feelings? Do you sometimes kind of want her to 'pay for what she has done'? Or maybe just 'stop getting away with crud'? Do you want to even things out, or tip the scales to reflect some more equal distribution of give-and-take? Do you want her to be forced to make amends or make things right somehow for the mistreatment of your son? Do you want some sort of not-quite-revenge but maybe consequences or punishment to come and land on her doorstep? Does she need to be 'taught a lesson' of what she can't get away with?

If you are feeling those 'craving justice' things, they can sometimes be a bit ugly on the inside. That's okay. We are all a bit ugly on the inside when we are being honest with ourselves. Be gentle and compassionate if you find part of yourself really feels that way. It's only human! But once you see it, you can bravely explore the roots of that feeling, and you can kind of 'control for' how that set of feelings might misdirect you in your relationship choices and actions. You don't actually want to let a hidden desire to 'hurt her back' take control of these important decisions. Knowing that feeling is there helps it not sneak into the driver's seat while you aren't looking.

I understand that's a really vulnerable thing to be asked about on a message board! I'm not expecting a response. And, again, I don't have any real idea whether you might or might not be feeling these things. I just know that some people would be (and others wouldn't be) and who knows which group you would be in? I don't mean to accuse you of having this particular dark side... but all of us have a dark side, and I don't think it's horrible to talk about it or explore it, whatever kind of dark side each of us has. (But maybe not on the open internet!)

I don’t think this is the case at all for @Baseballandhockey.  I think the precipitating event at the moment is needing to make plans/ deal with custody now if she’s going to take the kids for Thanksgiving.  And I think the reason she’s asking is because while @Baseballandhockey has strategies and ways of dealing with her mom, she struggles with the fact that her mom is needing more care and also that she’s worried about the example she’s setting for her kids about forgiveness, since they have lots of things, maybe even worse than what her mom did, to forgive in their dad.  
 

And that feels really hard to me, because her mom isn’t saying she’s sorry.  She’s only able to maintain a surface level relationship because her second son has died.  Her mom wants to erase his existence and pretend he never existed.  She’s still actively erasing him.  How do you forgive someone who is both not repentant and continuing to harm you?  What is your level of filial obligation?  I think @Baseballandhockeyhas done a remarkable job of teasing out ways to have a relationship with her mom and to help her and to keep her from hurting her kids and limiting the damage she can do to herself.  But when you are deciding upon the amount and kind of relationship she’s going to have with your other children, who love their brother and are grieving him too, that’s a really hard thing. I don’t know what I would do, honestly.  I would want to call out the elephant in the room. I would want to say, “Mom, I am so hurt by the fact that you didn’t even send a condolence card. I am hurt that you don’t refer to him as a grandchild or my son to your friends.  I am hurt that you didn’t keep any pictures of him.  And I don’t know how to deal with you trying to get me to send him to an institution.”  But that just seems likely to give her more opportunity to deny him or say things that would make it harder to help her or have a surface level relationship. 
 

I don’t know what I would do.  I kinda wonder how the kids will react to the lack of pictures of their brother. I would definitely tell them ahead of time. I guess I figure they’re old enough I would ask them if they want to go or not and abide by their choice.  But I don’t know if that’s the right thing to do or not.  
 

Just so hard. 

[Terabith]

23 hours ago, Scarlett said:

It sounds like they did not have a great relationship before so I guess I am not surprised this us still an issue. 
 

None of us can force others to feel a certain way  about the people we love and usually faking it doesn’t work either. 
 

 

Nobody was talking about forcing her to feel a certain way about him.  She has acted with less compassion towards an ill, orphaned child than I can imagine anyone acting to towards an animal in the same situation.  She didn’t even make a phone call or send a card when her daughter’s son died.  No matter how she felt or not towards her grandchild, she knows he’s someone her daughter loved.  That’s a mind boggling level of casual cruelty that just really makes me wonder if she’s sustained a major brain injury or something, since she wasn’t like this when @Baseballandhockeywas a child. 

[Drama Llama]

3 hours ago, bolt. said:

I might be wrong about this (and I often am) so, when I ask these things, please regard it as something to ponder and ask yourself as part of your inner life -- that might or might not be true, but it's something that is true for some people. It's not as an accusation.

What I'm seeing is that you kinda know how to "deal with her". You have strategies that have been working throughout the much harder phases of this journey. You've got a fair handle on boundaries. You've shown that you can usually find that elusive middle ground between being a good daughter and not letting her get away with too much crud. You've been doing that for a while now.

So, I'm wondering why you have this question that you want to explore now. My guess is maybe you have some breathing space now (?) or some precipitating event (?) and you've noticed acutely that the relationship the way it is seems superficial and one-sided, and that you don't love that she seems to get rewarded all the time, no matter what she dishes out. It's unjust. The relationship is inconsistent with how much pain she adds (and has added) to your life.

For the past 3 years, I've been kicking the questions of "Do I visit?", "Do the kids visit?" and "Do we have a difficult conversation about the Thanksgiving comment?" down the road.  For the first 10 months after the comment, all my energy was on child.  Visiting wouldn't have been an option if she'd been the best Grandma ever.  He was far too sick to travel.  And then, I had covid as an excuse.  

Now, apparently the "Do I visit?" question is answered.  If she's distressed enough to call me for help, I will go.  Because, whether she deserves it or not, I love her.  And she's alone, and elderly, and sick, and disabled, and my personal values don't allow me to leave people who are alone and sick and disabled without help, even if those people don't share my values.  So, I went, and I'll keep going.  

But the other two questions are unanswered.  If we're going to resume a relationship like the one we had before, which already had plenty of boundaries, then the logical time to do it would be to visit on Thanksgiving.  And if I'm going to visit with the kids on Thanksgiving, I need to be working with my lawyer and my family counselor and DH to figure out how that would work.  And if I'm going to visit without the kids on Thanksgiving, well that's almost as complicated since my kids' visitation is supervised, and most of the supervisors travel to their in laws.  So, sorting it out will take time.  

It's not as simple as saying "well you can decide whether you stay or go", because it's a trip that involves traveling overnight at least once, and the logistics of leaving them are complicated.  Not impossible, but emotionally charged and confusing eitehr way.  

I had thought that maybe when I visited her we would just settle into our old routine, and I could forgive and forget.  Not forget him.  I'll never forget him, but be OK with her.  But, then I looked at the photo albums and I imagined how my sensitive grieving 15 year old might feel if Grandma asks him to come sit with her and look at the book together and his brother has been erased.  

3 hours ago, bolt. said:

Is your primary motive maybe coming from the 'craving justice' family of feelings? Do you sometimes kind of want her to 'pay for what she has done'? Or maybe just 'stop getting away with crud'? Do you want to even things out, or tip the scales to reflect some more equal distribution of give-and-take? Do you want her to be forced to make amends or make things right somehow for the mistreatment of your son? Do you want some sort of not-quite-revenge but maybe consequences or punishment to come and land on her doorstep? Does she need to be 'taught a lesson' of what she can't get away with?

No, none of those things.  I want to do right by my mom, and also by my kids.  But if I have to choose I'll chose my kids.  I'm just not sure what's right for them.  

3 hours ago, bolt. said:

If you are feeling those 'craving justice' things, they can sometimes be a bit ugly on the inside. That's okay. We are all a bit ugly on the inside when we are being honest with ourselves. Be gentle and compassionate if you find part of yourself really feels that way. It's only human! But once you see it, you can bravely explore the roots of that feeling, and you can kind of 'control for' how that set of feelings might misdirect you in your relationship choices and actions. You don't actually want to let a hidden desire to 'hurt her back' take control of these important decisions. Knowing that feeling is there helps it not sneak into the driver's seat while you aren't looking.

I understand that's a really vulnerable thing to be asked about on a message board! I'm not expecting a response. And, again, I don't have any real idea whether you might or might not be feeling these things. I just know that some people would be (and others wouldn't be) and who knows which group you would be in? I don't mean to accuse you of having this particular dark side... but all of us have a dark side, and I don't think it's horrible to talk about it or explore it, whatever kind of dark side each of us has. (But maybe not on the open internet!)

 

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Nobody was talking about forcing her to feel a certain way about him.  She has acted with less compassion towards an ill, orphaned child than I can imagine anyone acting to towards an animal in the same situation.  She didn’t even make a phone call or send a card when her daughter’s son died.  No matter how she felt or not towards her grandchild, she knows he’s someone her daughter loved.  That’s a mind boggling level of casual cruelty that just really makes me wonder if she’s sustained a major brain injury or something, since she wasn’t like this when @Baseballandhockeywas a child. 

She wasn't not like this when I was a child.  I was a sweet well behaved little girl who combed my hair and looked good in pictures and brought home A's and went to the "right" kind of college.  

To be fair to her, she knew I wouldn't have wanted her comfort. I wrote that about her not coming to the virtual service not because I wanted her there, but just to show how strained the relationship was at this point.  

[Drama Llama]

7 hours ago, Innisfree said:

I mean, has she historically stepped up to help others who are in the hospital, or in pain and in need of comfort? Or does she avoid those situations? (Obviously no need to answer here)

No.  Not really.

For context, my oldest has asthma.  He was diagnosed at 6 weeks which is really young, and kind of scary.  It never would have crossed my mind as the young scared mom of a tiny baby that she would be someone I called.  I'm not sure whether she knows now that he has it.  It might have come up at some point if I was explaining why he was coughing.  

I did call her when the boys were born, not right away but sometime that day.  They were born during the week and I broke the "only call on Sundays" rule for that.  But other than that, no I'd never reach out to her for something medical. 

 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

So, if you're only accepted if you follow her (largely unspoken) rules, and you aren't close anyway----can you give yourself permission to spend Thanksgiving the way that you want to?  There doesn't need to be a dichotomy of not spending it with dh's family therefore I must spend it with mine. You can be your own safe and loving space for your kids.

FaceTime/Zoom still works on holidays---a 10 minute call between you and her could tick the box of obligation you seem to feel without putting your kids into a (likely) uncomfortable situation. 

[Tanaqui]

Quote

But the other two questions are unanswered.  If we're going to resume a relationship like the one we had before, which already had plenty of boundaries, then the logical time to do it would be to visit on Thanksgiving. 

I wildly disagree with the bolded. A big family holiday is bound to be the WORST time to do this, even without all the complications.

If you're going to try to resume this relationship, with or without the kids, then I'd suggest starting slowly, with  more low-key options, like a weekly call where the kids are invited but not obligated to greet her. Build up to holidays, don't start there.

[LaughingCat]

49 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

She wasn't not like this when I was a child.  I was a sweet well behaved little girl who combed my hair and looked good in pictures and brought home A's and went to the "right" kind of college.  

To be fair to her, she knew I wouldn't have wanted her comfort. I wrote that about her not coming to the virtual service not because I wanted her there, but just to show how strained the relationship was at this point.  

IMO as your mom, she should have reached out to you in some way no matter how strained the relationship was --just because you were her daughter that she cared about and wanted to support while you were hurt and grieving and regardless of how she felt about your son. Really, writing some kind of condolence (online or card to you) is the very minimum level of action she should have taken.

I would not go at Thanksgiving and I would not take the kids.  I would probably only go when she has reached out for help( as you say you have done so far) or if you decide to do more, I would do it very slowly (as Tanaqui suggests )--  and I may not ever tell her why, that would depend on what she says and does. 

Same with the kids, I'm very honest with my kids about stuff like this but in this case the similarities to situation with their father would make it hard -- but I would definitely not chose to <whatever> with her because you hope kids will do <same> for Dad (forgive her or visit her or whatever it is that seems to match to you).   I would think at very least from what you have said that you could explain to the kids that the difference is that Dad is trying to do better (even if he is failing) and Grandma has not even recognized the issue as an issue, much less tried to mend things. 

[Drama Llama]

41 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I wildly disagree with the bolded. A big family holiday is bound to be the WORST time to do this, even without all the complications.

If you're going to try to resume this relationship, with or without the kids, then I'd suggest starting slowly, with  more low-key options, like a weekly call where the kids are invited but not obligated to greet her. Build up to holidays, don't start there.

We already do a weekly call.

It wouldn’t be a big family gathering.  We’d fly up the night before, spend the night in a hotel, and have dinner with her in a restaurant, either the 4 of us or 5 with my brother.

It’s the logical thing because it would just be stepping back into a familiar routine, not making up something new.  

[SKL]

I might take advantage of the fact that custody issues make bringing the kids complicated.  I might just say that the current arrangement doesn't allow you to bring the kids and you aren't going to leave them on Thanksgiving.

I tend to agree that a big family holiday is not the time to work on difficult relationship things, if it can be avoided.

Overall, a lot of things are not clear to me, but it seems like a lot has been unsaid on both sides over the years.  With mom getting up in years, and having had practically no contact due to Covid, is it possible she doesn't even really understand the rather complicated situation of son #2?

Another thing - I would not base my feelings on hearsay.  "My mom's friends say she never mentioned that I adopted DS2."  That might not even be true, and even if it is, it doesn't mean anything without knowing a lot more.  I have adopted kids, and I have no idea nor do I care whether my folks have told their friends anything about them.  I am pretty sure that little or no info about me & my kids has been exchanged with non-family since my mom has been "shut in" (health issues, but same would apply for Covid lockdowns/restrictions).

I'm also interested in whether you know "why" she thought it wrong for you to adopt this child, and why she thought it wrong for him to live at home with you.  What specific words did she say about both?  Not that it makes anything right, but it may help boardies to understand and respond better.

Anyway, I feel like in cases like this, while people are hurt by various aspects of things, side details (the friend hearsay etc.) detract from the real central issue.  "Mom, my son, your grandson ___ meant a lot to me and his brothers, and he still does.  Sometimes I feel like he's been erased from here.  Can I help you put together a photo book for DS2 and pick some group photos of the brothers to include in DS1's and DS3's photo albums?"  Maybe give her some time to consider how she should respond to you.

[SKL]

12 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

We already do a weekly call.

It wouldn’t be a big family gathering.  We’d fly up the night before, spend the night in a hotel, and have dinner with her in a restaurant, either the 4 of us or 5 with my brother.

It’s the logical thing because it would just be stepping back into a familiar routine, not making up something new.  

In this case, there is no concern that the boys will notice the photo display / photo album issue in her home.

I honestly think I'd skip it ... even though I love my folks, I would not fly there just for a restaurant meal.

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

So, if you're only accepted if you follow her (largely unspoken) rules, and you aren't close anyway----can you give yourself permission to spend Thanksgiving the way that you want to?  There doesn't need to be a dichotomy of not spending it with dh's family therefore I must spend it with mine. You can be your own safe and loving space for your kids.

FaceTime/Zoom still works on holidays---a 10 minute call between you and her could tick the box of obligation you seem to feel without putting your kids into a (likely) uncomfortable situation. 

I can probably convince a judge that it’s reasonable for me to visit my elderly mother.  In fact, I can likely convince DH without going to court.  
 

I’m not going to be able to convince him that he should give up his right to see his kids on the holiday so I can stay home and do nothing with them.

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I can probably convince a judge that it’s reasonable for me to visit my elderly mother.  In fact, I can likely convince DH without going to court.  
 

I’m not going to be able to convince him that he should give up his right to see his kids on the holiday so I can stay home and do nothing with them.

So are you thinking the trip is a way to avoid having them do Thanksgiving with their dad?  And the current arrangement requires them to see him on that day?

If it's worth a fight with their dad, the restaurant meal with Granny sounds pretty low-risk, though expensive and low-yield IMO.

[Drama Llama]

Just now, SKL said:

So are you thinking the trip is a way to avoid having them do Thanksgiving with their dad?  And the current arrangement requires them to see him on that day?

If it's worth a fight with their dad, the restaurant meal with Granny sounds pretty low-risk, though expensive and low-yield IMO.

No, I'm not.  I'm just saying that I don't think that I can do what @prairiewindmomma suggests which is have the holiday I want to have.  I'll spend the holiday with someone who stressed me out.  

 

[Clarita]

7 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

It’s the logical thing because it would just be stepping back into a familiar routine, not making up something new.  

Maybe making up something new would be good here. Years ago my mom did something that I thought was wrong, I've forgiven her for it in that I continue a relationship with her and I don't waste brain power thinking about the wrong she has done/doing. On the flip side she hasn't "repented" nor does she think what she did was/is actually wrong.  We had to form new routines because of circumstances, but in hindsight that was really useful for the situation. 

What she did broke the relationship we had before. There is no way to go back to "the way things were before." Doing new routines made it so we can have a relationship, but it's clear that it isn't the same relationship as it was before. I don't have to pretend things are the same. It's also easier to set boundaries on things without having the "tradition" arguments, like maybe you don't meet at her house at all because not having all 3 grandchildren's pictures bothers you, or there won't be photo album time.

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

No, I'm not.  I'm just saying that I don't think that I can do what @prairiewindmomma suggests which is have the holiday I want to have.  I'll spend the holiday with someone who stressed me out.  

 

OK that makes sense.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

It’s the logical thing because it would just be stepping back into a familiar routine, not making up something new.  

That does not make this a good idea. Even if you want to start visiting - and there would be no judgment from me if you did not! - I really think you're better doing it during some less weighted time of the year.

Not a holiday.

Have you ever seen this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF9ST-j3u4M

 

Carly Rae Jepsen is singing about extremely relatable problems that people with fairly non-toxic families would get, and the whole point of the song is that people fight over the holidays. That song is certainly not the first place I ever heard the phrase "It's not $HOLIDAY until somebody cries", lemme tell you.

You know what's not in that song? Literally anything you mentioned here! She's talking about routine family drama, and you're talking about the sort of stuff that causes estrangement.

If you want to visit your mother because you want to visit her - not because she's lonely or because nobody else will or because she's your mother and you love her, but because this is what will make you happy - then sure, visit her. But please, reconsider doing this visit during a holiday. It is not going to end well.

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Maybe making up something new would be good here. Years ago my mom did something that I thought was wrong, I've forgiven her for it in that I continue a relationship with her and I don't waste brain power thinking about the wrong she has done/doing. On the flip side she hasn't "repented" nor does she think what she did was/is actually wrong.  We had to form new routines because of circumstances, but in hindsight that was really useful for the situation. 

What she did broke the relationship we had before. There is no way to go back to "the way things were before." Doing new routines made it so we can have a relationship, but it's clear that it isn't the same relationship as it was before. I don't have to pretend things are the same. It's also easier to set boundaries on things without having the "tradition" arguments, like maybe you don't meet at her house at all because not having all 3 grandchildren's pictures bothers you, or there won't be photo album time.

But I already worked really hard on setting up boundaries.  I don't think that what I'm describing, one 15 minute phone call a week, with an exception if you gave birth that week or if it's her birthday, and two visits of 1 -3 nights on relatively minor holidays, with whoever is visiting staying in a hotel, is a typical mother-child relationship.  

The idea of negotiating a whole new set of mother-daughter boundaries, as opposed to going back to those is not tempting.  I do think that one possibility is to say that we'll fly in, and just do dinner, either meet her at the restaurant if my brother can bring her or pick her up out front of her building, so we don't go inside and deal with photo albums.  In the past we might get there midday, and visit a couple hours before we head to the restaurant, and then maybe do something like a museum the next day before flying back.  

[Drama Llama]

To be clear, as an adult, I've never seen my mom when it isn't a holiday, a crisis (e.g. I flew up there because she had a medical emergency, or to help her move to a higher level of care), or something like my wedding or the baptism of my kid.  Without an event to provide structure and a script, I wouldn't have a clue what to expect.  That would be so much more stressful.  

No one's going to fight.  The issue is that we don't talk about anything that's important to us.  You don't fight with people you don't talk to.  

 

[Rosie_0801]

Your main priority should be to get yourself and your kids through the quagmire of court, custody and inlaws, with the minimum possible drama, until your youngest turns 18 and you're released from it. (Or whatever your orders say.)

Anything else, including mothers with no manners whom you love anyway, is secondary, because there's only so much you can do without going bonkers.

[Harriet Vane]

5 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Your main priority should be to get yourself and your kids through the quagmire of court, custody and inlaws, with the minimum possible drama, until your youngest turns 18 and you're released from it. (Or whatever your orders say.)

Anything else, including mothers with no manners whom you love anyway, is secondary, because there's only so much you can do without going bonkers.

Wise words, Rosie.

[LaughingCat]

28 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

We already do a weekly call.

It wouldn’t be a big family gathering.  We’d fly up the night before, spend the night in a hotel, and have dinner with her in a restaurant, either the 4 of us or 5 with my brother.

It’s the logical thing because it would just be stepping back into a familiar routine, not making up something new.  

IMO the stepping back into a familiar routine is more of a reason NOT to do it -- because it sets things up as if nothing was wrong between you and implies to the other person that you are done with the issue when clearly you still feel estranged, upset etc. 

Also -- from my POV, that simple visit you describe is not some special holiday set up with special boundaries you've worked out -- you could do that exact same visit ANY time you wanted except you could plan it for some time that was convenient for you, like next spring break or even later (and take the kids or not, as seemed appropriate at the time -- I personally would probably start with not taking the kids, but it sounds like her seeing the kids is most of the reason you're even considering doing this trip).   

 

[Drama Llama]

25 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Your main priority should be to get yourself and your kids through the quagmire of court, custody and inlaws, with the minimum possible drama, until your youngest turns 18 and you're released from it. (Or whatever your orders say.)

Anything else, including mothers with no manners whom you love anyway, is secondary, because there's only so much you can do without going bonkers.

I think that me structuring my entire life around not pissing off my husband because of my fear of court and custody issues is making me bonkers.  Or, more bonkers, I'm already pretty far gone.  

[Rosie_0801]

Just now, Baseballandhockey said:

I think that me structuring my entire life around not pissing off my husband because of my fear of court and custody issues is making me bonkers.  Or, more bonkers, I'm already pretty far gone.  

I know the feeling.

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I know the feeling.

I can't just not do anything because it might piss their father off.  I've been living like that.  

If I decide to see or not see my mom, I should be able to make that decision based on how I feel, and what I think is best for her and my kids.  

[Rosie_0801]

3 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I can't just not do anything because it might piss their father off.  I've been living like that.  

If I decide to see or not see my mom, I should be able to make that decision based on how I feel, and what I think is best for her and my kids.  

Yeah, you should. 

I'm not disputing the morality, just the practicalities, because I've been here, done most of this too, didn't deserve it either and certainly haven't come out of it unscarred.

[Jaybee]

I probably wouldn't go on Thanksgiving. I think I wouldn't want to deal with the dh drama on the holiday itself, and would want to spend the rest of the weekend just relaxing with my kids. (Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday, and I wouldn't want to be so stressed, even if I spent the day itself at home alone, chilling out.) This is your best opportunity to reframe the time with your mom, since you haven't done it the past couple of years. So maybe leave Mother's Day in the schedule, and fill in a different time rather than Thanksgiving, if you can work it out with work and other responsibilities. Maybe even something between Thanksgiving and Christmas would work in order to hit them both--that would let you frame it to her that way. Then it just takes that extra stress off. Like another pp said, you can structure your time up there the same way, without having to fight the Thanksgiving Day restaurant crowds. Just mentally pretend it's the same as TD. If it is important to schedule when your brother can be there too, would he be able to come another time? Does she know you and your dh are separated? If so, that would give you another reason to give her for changing the schedule.

[Drama Llama]

22 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Yeah, you should. 

I'm not disputing the morality, just the practicalities, because I've been here, done most of this too, didn't deserve it either and certainly haven't come out of it unscarred.

I know that you've been there.  I appreciate your wisdom and I'm sorry you've shared my experiences.  But I need to have some boundaries with him.  Because, otherwise, there's a very real risk that what remains of my mental health will deteriorate.  And that wouldn't be good.  I've tried just letting him have his way with everything, and that wasn't really a workable situation. 

[Jaybee]

Also, if your boys are just suppose to spend Thanksgiving Day itself with dh and family (and I just realized that may mean that you go too, since the situation with him and his sister means they need to be protected), maybe this would be a good time to introduce some new traditions for the three of you for the rest of the weekend or part of it.

[Rosie_0801]

5 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I know that you've been there.  I appreciate your wisdom and I'm sorry you've shared my experiences.  But I need to have some boundaries with him.  Because, otherwise, there's a very real risk that what remains of my mental health will deteriorate.  And that wouldn't be good.  I've tried just letting him have his way with everything, and that wasn't really a workable situation. 

Yeah, I get it.

Just, you have more enough court ordered swords to fall on, so you have to be very, very careful what others you choose for yourself. When self preservation and justice aren't allowed to be the same thing, you have to prioritise self preservation, even though justice is such an enormous part of self preservation. (That shouldn't make sense but I'm pretty sure it does.) It's necessary to avoid falling on swords for people who aren't your allies, even if a) they should be and b) you love them anyway. (And yeah, giving them all their own way isn't the answer because it's never enough.)

Anyway. I get it. ((hugs))

[LaughingCat]

So, maybe the choice is actually:

your DH will not agree that "he should give up his right to see his kids on the holiday" ("his right" italicized because apparently your current agreement states you have them on that holiday this year -- (and possibly I remember you may have them always with only supervised visits?))

or 

"  I can likely convince DH " to agree you can do that holiday at your mothers who you have been mostly estranged from ("likely" italicized, same as above note)

This unfortunately appears more an issue with your DH then your mother & both of those statements together would tell me it is time to move forward with the divorce if you haven't already  -- in which case IMO let go of the whole mother thing and focus on surviving in the meantime (as Rosie said much better below).

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Your main priority should be to get yourself and your kids through the quagmire of court, custody and inlaws, with the minimum possible drama, until your youngest turns 18 and you're released from it. (Or whatever your orders say.)

Anything else, including mothers with no manners whom you love anyway, is secondary, because there's only so much you can do without going bonkers.

 

[Drama Llama]

28 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

(Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday, and I wouldn't want to be so stressed, even if I spent the day itself at home alone, chilling out.)

I feel like this is a fundamental difference.

I don't have positive associations with this holiday.  It's not like the Christmas season which is like a roller coaster of extreme emotions, and intense memories, both good and bad.  It's just this weird formal thing that my family does that I don't particularly like, but don't particularly hate.  

Plus, my brother wouldn't come if it wasn't Thanksgiving, and it would be nice to see him, and have him as a buffer.  My guess is that if I stop going to Thanksgiving, the next time I see him will be at my mom's funeral, which is kind of a sad thought. 

And, with sports, finding another weekend would be hard.  

[Terabith]

I think, given everything, that I would raise the issue with dh and work to get him to agree to let me take the kids for Thanksgiving, especially if you can do the entire visit without having to go into her apartment and deal with the photo albums.  I think the photo albums is the thing that would make me not take the kids to see her, and if there is a way to have the high boundary, fairly neutral setting of a restaurant get together, that that would be the best way to have a distant, formal meeting.  And I think that it might be nice to see your brother and for your kids to see him.