Deleted

[Catwoman]

11 minutes ago, regentrude said:

You say this once. Apology done. The end.

There should be no further apologizing and explaining - it just validates her belief that she has been wronged deeply and horribly and will feed into her drama. You can have compassion and empathy, but you do not need to provide her with the drug she is addicted to.

I agree. And if you remember, she did get apologies right from the start, but they weren’t the right kind of apologies so she refused to accept them. She needs to control every aspect of the narrative.

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Catwoman
Typo!

[TechWife]

“But I can truly do that while also saying to ds you are right and I am sorry she has hurt you.” 

Her actions are not your responsibility. You do not need to apologize to your son because she hurt him. That’s her job, not yours.

Instead, look for ways to strengthen your relationship with him - ways that don’t involve anything that has any connection to your daughter. Take time with him - realize that you can’t “make up” for the over focus on dd that impacted him and set out to build something new and different. 

[Catwoman]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

Ann, I really hope that you can see a therapist. Being empathetic shouldn’t mean that you have to enable unhealthy thinking or behavior. And I do think that that is what you have been doing. 
 

I am impressed with your openness. None of this is easy and hearing some of the things we are saying must be difficult. 

Yes! I agree completely. Ann has been amazing through all of this. I don’t think I would have been anywhere near as gracious as she has been. 

I know I have been hard on her, but it’s because she is so incredibly kind, and I hate to see her allow her dd to walk all over her like this. I know her dd has a good side, but I don’t think Ann should have to accept and validate the negative behavior in order to see that good side. I think Ann has a blind spot when it comes to this dd, and I can kind of understand it because who doesn’t want to see the best in the people we love, but I’m worried because I don’t like to see Ann so worried and upset.

[Lecka]

I don’t think at all you are venting to your family like here.

Here’s what I think.

One, those at home at minimum know you have been stressed out and through the ringer the past few days.

Two, you have said (paraphrasing) you do tiptoe around her and worry about her getting upset with you.  That’s a hard thing and its likely others either feel this way too or notice you doing it.  It’s not a good dynamic.

Three, you have noticed this in the past year.  Have you noticed it on your own or have other people brought it up to you?  Or did it really get worse in the past year?  Did you start to expect more mature behavior recently?  

Even without you venting I think people know what’s going on and that you are emotionally drained.  
 

I also think it’s really worth looking into therapy because these are dynamics that maybe have been building for a long time and it’s hard to change and also there is baggage on various sides.  It is hard and you have a big role to play as a wife and mother.  I think you need someone neutral you can have time to talk to, and have just one person that you talk with — and that person isn’t convincing you of anything but helping you figure out what you think and how you want to respond to all sides.

 

It will probably take time too — and right now you have got lots of sides with your husband, kids, and SIL.  
 

I think when this dies down it will be a good time to just talk about it once a week, no drama, figure out how you want to handle things, etc.  

 

I think it has value.  

[Soror]

Man, I can really sympathize with you. My odd has always been the dramatic one. Even as a baby she would scream so loudly and forcefully until you gave her complete attention. As a teen she's went through varying levels of anxiety. Now, she's went through this horrible traumatic situation. It is a fine line to acknowledge her struggles but have clear boundaries that don't allow her to treat other family members like crap because of them. When she was a toddler I figured out that giving her too much empathy and sympathy would only feed into her irrational thoughts. That line is a lot finer these days. Sometimes I have to be very forceful and call it like it is. (hugs)

[Slache]

I said I think you should apologize. I thought that you were in the wrong for moving her things and that while you had apologized for hurting her feelings you hadn't apologized for what you did and I felt that that should be corrected. You did that and DD said that you two are OK (even possibly before that showing that I was wrong). There is nothing left to apologize for. Absolutely nothing. You should not apologize for anything you have already apologized for. You should not apologize for anything anyone else has done. Your daughter hurts and you want to fix it but it's up to her now.

[Ann.without.an.e]

Concerning me being too easy on Dd or apologizing causing too many issues. 

let’s back up and remember that the reason no one except me has compassion left for her is mostly because of old wounds. Other than this and the dog incident the last year with dd has been good. I think that’s why I was able to step back and see how unhealthy the dynamic had been. I had reprieve from the constant emotional drama. Before that it was indeed really bad. The change came because of therapy and supplements and maturing and then this SIL also helps to bring stability. So the last year hasn’t been so bad and I’m willing to put aside the past hurts and say that this is triggered by change and she was trying to be better but this situation was simply too much for her and be hopeful it won’t be a new trend. Others are just sensing that it feels like familiar hurt to them and they have no compassion left because of the past. 

[Lecka]

I think that makes a lot of sense. 

[LMD]

You say you are very empathic, but you really seem to be mostly only empathic towards those with the biggest feelings, your empathy is drawn to the largest gravitational force. 

I get that, I really do, I'm not trying to be mean, it's a hard place to be I know well, and it caused a lot of issues early in my marriage between my 'feelings are reality' mother and my 'impenetrable boundaries' new husband. 

It's okay to have emotional boundaries, not just physical or behavioural. It's okay to just not be drawn in. She is an adult, she is capable, she has other support and knows how to access other options. She really doesn't need you to tear yourself to emotional pieces for her. Those smaller, less dramatic feelings - accompanied by appropriate behaviour - in your ds and dh are where your empathy is safe, needed and deserved.

You can't fix this, you can't fix her, you don't have the magic words to bring peace to the family (they don't exist). *hugs* I'm really sorry, this is a very difficult place to be. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

15 minutes ago, LMD said:

You say you are very empathic, but you really seem to be mostly only empathic towards those with the biggest feelings, your empathy is drawn to the largest gravitational force. 

 

Yes and no. In the past when the dynamic was bad I was completely unaware of what was really going on because I was dragged from one emotional upheaval to the next and too drained to have empathy left for others, yes. Then I only had energy left for whatever crises was the biggest. After things calmed and I could sort through it all and see the picture in it’s real, I don’t think that’s true anymore. I can validate dd’s feelings without allowing her to deplete me completely. Leaving me with the ability to hold emotional space for others as well. 
a lot of your words here are completely true and I agree with them. I’ve been working on all of these things. Especially the fixing part.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Lecka]

Counselors can say really nice things to you too you might not be thinking of yourself.  
 

I think you are in the middle of something really hard with lots of old baggage, and doing a lot of things showing grace on all sides.  

[Forget-Me-Not]

2 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

The therapist reached out and she has no openings but since I have a lot of flexibility she will keep me on her call list. I reached out to dd to make sure she would still schedule with this therapist if she wanted to be seen, if I see her too. I don't want the narrative to be "I don't even have a therapist anymore, my mom sees her now so I can't". She said she would be fine with that and she has no plans to see her again.

Take a screen shot of that and back it up, LOL.

You said you want to achieve peace.  You might not be able to achieve peace in this situation now.  You might be able to work toward peace at a future time if you all teach her that she cannot continue to treat you this way.

Is it really peace if you're all walking on tiptoe around her all the time?  She's the only peaceful one in that scenario.  The rest of you are stressed and anxious that she could blow at any time.  That's not real peace.  

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Forget-Me-Not

[livetoread]

I suggest this book for some pointers on dealing with her -  "Stop Walking on Eggshells" by Paul Mason and Randi Kreger. It's about Borderline Personality Disorder but the suggestions are excellent for dealing with people who have big feelings even without some of the more self-destructive aspects of BPD. If she ever does agree to more therapy, she would benefit from Dialectical Behavioral Therapy which was developed for treating BPD but again works well for anyone who experiences super strong feelings in ways that cause trouble for them.

Your dd is really feeling those things and telling her to get over herself probably won't work well (not that I think you are planning on doing that.) Right now she is thinking externally - that it's things outside of her that are causing her to feel so bad and the outside things need to stop/change - but it's more likely an internal problem of hair trigger emotions that she needs to learn to deal with more appropriately. As long as she continues to think it's the world's fault she feels bad, she is unlikely to make the needed changes and as long as people in her orbit validate that perspective it's harder to change. This is why acknowledging the feelings but refusing to buy into the perspective can help.

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Oh I hate that wasn’t  clear. I didn’t just feed or buy into  his view. 
I explained to him that anxiety can cause someone to seek control and it doesn’t have to be intentional. 
I’m the only one that Dd is speaking to rn even if it isn’t much. She’ll speak to me because I’ve shown empathy for her and said I know why she feels the way she does. I also apologized. I’m the only one willing to do that though. Everyone else is kinda done. 

And I don’t think it is unusual for mom to be the last one who is ‘done’.  If she keeps this up even you will be done.  

[Scarlett]

An old timey expression  keeps popping in to my head…..’Let her stew in her own juices’.  
 

edited to add — which is what both you Dh and ds are saying.  Your Dh for sure said it directly to her.  ‘ I am done discussing this’.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Scarlett

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 hour ago, Soror said:

Man, I can really sympathize with you. My odd has always been the dramatic one. Even as a baby she would scream so loudly and forcefully until you gave her complete attention. As a teen she's went through varying levels of anxiety. Now, she's went through this horrible traumatic situation. It is a fine line to acknowledge her struggles but have clear boundaries that don't allow her to treat other family members like crap because of them. When she was a toddler I figured out that giving her too much empathy and sympathy would only feed into her irrational thoughts. That line is a lot finer these days. Sometimes I have to be very forceful and call it like it is. (hugs)

I thought I’d responded to this already. I can’t imagine trying to figure out those lines with an overly emotional dd who has also been through what your dd has had to go through. Those lines would indeed feel finer. I’m so sorry ((hugs))

Edited June 22, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[KSera]

4 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

It is exhausting to deal with "I feel, therefore it happened" people.
I can't hack it, myself.

My mother used to do that all the time. "You're invalidating my feelings!" 
"No," I would say. "I completely believe you are feeling what you are feeling. I am disputing the facts. The thing you are feeling feelings about did not happen."

Don't use this approach. It doesn't work.

Did you find another approach that does? Exhausted from this myself today. 

3 hours ago, Catwoman said:

You know the truth here, Ann. Why can’t you express it to your dd? Isn’t it time she starts living in reality?

Much as her dd would benefit from seeing reality, Ann expressing it to her isn’t going to make her see or live in it. She sees things her way only and has maladaptive coping strategies that make this the only way she likely knows how right now. I honestly don’t know the way out of that, but I do know from experience that Ann expressing it more strongly is likely to cause an even bigger outburst of the victimhood.

[Catwoman]

7 minutes ago, KSera said:

Did you find another approach that does? Exhausted from this myself today. 

Much as her dd would benefit from seeing reality, Ann expressing it to her isn’t going to make her see or live in it. She sees things her way only and has maladaptive coping strategies that make this the only way she likely knows how right now. I honestly don’t know the way out of that, but I do know from experience that Ann expressing it more strongly is likely to cause an even bigger outburst of the victimhood.

I understand what you’re saying, but at a certain point, you can’t just keep validating and agreeing with a person who is behaving this way. It’s just enabling them and encouraging them to continue their manipulative and controlling behaviors. 

If the person reacts poorly and has an even bigger tantrum, that’s their choice, and they will have to deal with the consequences, which will probably be that more and more people will begin to distance themselves from them. 

A family can’t continue to walk on eggshells forever, simply because they are afraid of setting someone off. In Ann’s case, it appears that her older dd and her son are already at the point where they resent their sister and her constant emotional blackmailing. They see through her manipulation and they are sick and tired of it.

Ann’s dd needs professional help, but if she refuses to seek that help, her family is under no obligation to continue to allow themselves to be held hostage by her manipulative, entitled, and demanding behavior. It’s terribly unhealthy for the family to be subjected to that kind of psychological stress.

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

An old timey expression  keeps popping in to my head…..’Let her stew in her own juices’.  
 

edited to add — which is what both you Dh and ds are saying.  Your Dh for sure said it directly to her.  ‘ I am done discussing this’.

I agree. If she wants to be angry, well… let her be angry.

She is an adult now, and she doesn’t need to be rescued from every little thing. And this whole incident was a very little thing. I don’t think anyone should be pretending otherwise, no matter how much the dd dramatically insists that she deserves apologies and “closure.”

[KSera]

I’m not suggesting validating and agreeing, just that telling her she’s the one in the wrong is not likely to help in any way right now. It’s not like she’s suddenly going to see the light. In Ann’s case, it should be getting easier to handle because dd has moved out and they don’t all have to deal with the moods all the time. Before her dd moved out, they all didn’t have good options. Walking on eggshells sucks, but sometimes it’s preferable to dealing with blowups and drama and threats. And even more so when there are younger kids in the household to consider. No good answers. 

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

And I don’t think it is unusual for mom to be the last one who is ‘done’.  If she keeps this up even you will be done.  

I agree. 

It seems like everyone but Ann has reached the same conclusion about the dd, and I think most of us in this thread would agree with their assessment.

I think, at this point, people need to stop apologizing and stop walking on eggshells, and just be real and honest. If the dd doesn’t like it, that’s going to have to be her problem. She shouldn’t be allowed to tear apart the family with her drama, and neither can her dh. It’s not fair to the other kids in the family, and it’s not fair to Ann’s dh, and it’s particularly not fair to Ann, who has been forced to become the family peacekeeper. 

[Catwoman]

16 minutes ago, KSera said:

I’m not suggesting validating and agreeing, just that telling her she’s the one in the wrong is not likely to help in any way right now. It’s not like she’s suddenly going to see the light. In Ann’s case, it should be getting easier to handle because dd has moved out and they don’t all have to deal with the moods all the time. Before her dd moved out, they all didn’t have good options. Walking on eggshells sucks, but sometimes it’s preferable to dealing with blowups and drama and threats. And even more so when there are younger kids in the household to consider. No good answers. 

I think @fairfarmhand’s approach would be an excellent way to deal with the dd:

4 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

My person who can be like this desperately needs matter of fact people to glance at her with a raised eyebrow and go "Oh. No offense was meant. Your stuff is over there, It really is ok." and move on.

The more that people catered to the drama, the more dramatic my person tended to get. Hopefully SIL figures that out. These people desperately ache for someone to bring them back down to earth, to anchor their sense of reality and scale.  

It reminds me of when you have small child and you tell them stuff like, "Ok, this event is a 2 of 10 scale event. Your reaction is a 10 of 10. "

I don’t believe in walking on eggshells to keep the peace, because it’s not fair to the rest of the family. Just because you might be able to prevent some outbursts, doesn’t mean it’s a healthy dynamic for the family. Ann’s son and older dd already feel resentment toward their sister, and the younger kids might, too. And who can blame them? Their feelings and mental health are just as important as their sister’s.

I feel like, by constantly coddling and validating the dd, it’s setting a terrible example for the younger kids, because this isn’t something they should be viewing as a normal way to interact with anyone — but if it’s the way everyone treats their sister so she won’t pitch a fit, that does normalize it. 

I’m definitely not saying to be mean to the dd, but I am saying that I certainly wouldn’t be validating her need for big, special apologies and “closure” just because somebody carefully put some of her stuff into boxes for her to take home with her. Her reaction was (and still is) entirely inappropriate and I would calmly tell her that, whether she liked it or not. Because it’s the truth. And really, despite Ann going out of her way to apologize to her and empathize with her, she is still upset, and she still refuses to acknowledge that she was at fault in any way, so apparently the validation method isn’t working, anyway.

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, Forget-Me-Not said:

Take a screen shot of that and back it up, LOL.

You said you want to achieve peace.  You might not be able to achieve peace in this situation now.  You might be able to work toward peace at a future time if you all teach her that she cannot continue to treat you this way.

Is it really peace if you're all walking on tiptoe around her all the time?  She's the only peaceful one in that scenario.  The rest of you are stressed and anxious that she could blow at any time.  That's not real peace.  

 

This is exactly what I was thinking, but you said it far more succinctly than I did! 🙂 

[Slache]

But walking on eggshells as she grows emotionally will preserve her relationship with her daughter until she no longer has to do so. No one is required to walk on eggshells, but with DD maturing and having just moved out to give the necessary space, that's exactly what I'd be doing.

[KSera]

24 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I am saying that I certainly wouldn’t be validating her need for big, special apologies and “closure” just because somebody carefully put some of her stuff into boxes for her to take home with her. Her reaction was (and still is) entirely inappropriate and I would calmly tell her that, whether she liked it or not. Because it’s the truth.

I think almost all of us agree with this. I’m just saying continuing to tell her she was wrong at this point is not going to be helpful. To drop it is not walking on eggshells. 
 

 

7 minutes ago, Slache said:

But walking on eggshells as she grows emotionally will preserve her relationship with her daughter until she no longer has to do so. No one is required to walk on eggshells, but with DD maturing and having just moved out to give the necessary space, that's exactly what I'd be doing.

I wouldn’t see any reason to think continuing to walk on eggshells at this point is somehow going to bring Ann to a place where she no longer needs to do so with her dd. Now that she has moved out, it should be easier than before to set good boundaries. I wouldn’t have any great expectation her dd will have an epiphany as a result though. 

[Slache]

22 minutes ago, KSera said:

I wouldn’t see any reason to think continuing to walk on eggshells at this point is somehow going to bring Ann to a place where she no longer needs to do so with her dd. Now that she has moved out, it should be easier than before to set good boundaries. I wouldn’t have any great expectation her dd will have an epiphany as a result though. 

Because she says things are getting better. So kind of waiting it out.

[Catwoman]

18 minutes ago, KSera said:

I think almost all of us agree with this. I’m just saying continuing to tell her she was wrong at this point is not going to be helpful. To drop it is not walking on eggshells. 
 

 

I wouldn’t see any reason to think continuing to walk on eggshells at this point is somehow going to bring Ann to a place where she no longer needs to do so with her dd. Now that she has moved out, it should be easier than before to set good boundaries. I wouldn’t have any great expectation her dd will have an epiphany as a result though. 

At this point, I think dropping it is a good idea. The problem may be that the dd refuses to drop it because she hasn’t gotten her way yet. And if she doesn’t drop it, I wouldn’t recommend validating her feelings or expressing any sympathy toward her. I would definitely tell her it’s time to let this go, and if she didn’t like that, so be it. 

And honestly, if she got upset about it again, I wouldn’t be able to stop myself from pointing out that she is the one who owes her father an apology for the way she treated him on Father’s Day. Her behavior was terribly hurtful and mean! She would probably blow a gasket, but if she was trying to once again play the victim, I wouldn’t be able to let it go without saying something, whether she liked it or not. She really hurt her dad, and he does so much for her all the time. 

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, Slache said:

Because she says things are getting better. So kind of waiting it out.

If things are getting better, keeping a little distance and saying nothing makes a lot of sense. Let her have some time to calm down. But if she starts making demands for apologies and closure again, I don’t think tiptoeing around her or caving to her unreasonable demands is the answer.

[Slache]

8 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

If things are getting better, keeping a little distance and saying nothing makes a lot of sense. .

Especially since DD literally asked for space.

I didn't want to quote you for some so trivial earlier, but when someone says "Please don't quote," and I want their attention I will quote them and edit it. Look at my quoting you now.

[SKL]

I love how your son pointed out the conflict:

"I am just sooo attached to this family and this home."

"I'm not coming to this house or speaking to this family, even on Father's Day, kuz you moved my stuff."

She's attached to control.

This attachment will surely move from your house to her own, and it's going to cause problems in her married home, if it hasn't already.

How to communicate that effectively to her ....

[Rosie_0801]

4 hours ago, KSera said:

Did you find another approach that does? Exhausted from this myself today. 

No. She accused me of domestic violence, gave power of attorney to a sister she'd been afraid of for 20 years and had told me not to allow her to attend her funeral (in another, I dunno, 20 years or more,) tried to take out an intervention order against me. 

Mutual agreement to pretend the other doesn't exist is working very well for us.

[TravelingChris]

36 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

No. She accused me of domestic violence, gave power of attorney to a sister she'd been afraid of for 20 years and had told me not to allow her to attend her funeral (in another, I dunno, 20 years or more,) tried to take out an intervention order against me. 

Mutual agreement to pretend the other doesn't exist is working very well for us.

Gosh I am so sorry.

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

Gosh I am so sorry.

I don't suppose she could help it. 60 years of domestic violence takes its toll.
May my daughter break the cycle.

[Soror]

10 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I thought I’d responded to this already. I can’t imagine trying to figure out those lines with an overly emotional dd who has also been through what your dd has had to go through. Those lines would indeed feel finer. I’m so sorry ((hugs))

No worries. My dd is doing "ok" at the present but we've had some moments since the wreck. It was actually the roughest a couple of years ago, thank goodness she was in a better place when the wreck happened. BC pills helped her so much. She's naturally high strung but the change in hormones put her over the top.

It's funny because we just had a big discussion last night and she was talking about her need for control. But for us the biggest issues have not been the drama and control but her being self-centered. That is an even touchier one to confront. I see that all over your daughter's response. She's only thinking about herself and how things affect her. But if she's not receptive to hear another POV it does no good.  She has to do some work and at this point that is up to her. 

You must be utterly exhausted. I hope your daughter gets some help and continues to grow.

[Ann.without.an.e]

15 minutes ago, Soror said:

No worries. My dd is doing "ok" at the present but we've had some moments since the wreck. It was actually the roughest a couple of years ago, thank goodness she was in a better place when the wreck happened. BC pills helped her so much. She's naturally high strung but the change in hormones put her over the top.

It's funny because we just had a big discussion last night and she was talking about her need for control. But for us the biggest issues have not been the drama and control but her being self-centered. That is an even touchier one to confront. I see that all over your daughter's response. She's only thinking about herself and how things affect her. But if she's not receptive to hear another POV it does no good.  She has to do some work and at this point that is up to her. 

You must be utterly exhausted. I hope your daughter gets some help and continues to grow.

yes that’s hard 

self centered people are the most sensitive and least receptive to hearing things like “you’re only thinking of yourself” or “you’re being self centered” or even “this isn’t just about you”. Those interactions end with a lot of drama which sort of proves the point lol

[Ann.without.an.e]

They texted DH this morning to see if they could come over this evening to talk. Dh said ofc. I have high hopes because dd seems less emotional now. Also SIL and I texted a good bit yesterday about how he’s been trying to get her to have better perspective and he was asking for help with that. He said that his initial reaction to her was to say it wasn’t a huge deal but then she was just so devastated and continued to be that it was killing him to see her so hurt. I get his point and I really don’t want to be too hard on him for reaching out originally. I’ve been In the place Of seeing her so hurt and devastated and it triggers a lot of feelings in you. He will have to learn to deal with his own feelings if she has these issues often. Since she hasn’t had them a lot lately, this is still very new to him. Hopefully the change was a trigger and she’ll be grounded again. I was able to carefully express some of the past with dd and how I enabled it by justifying her big emotions and her poor treatment of others and how it wasn’t helpful to dd or me and it hurt others. I even told him that since he’s so empathetic he could easily fall into that place if he weren’t careful. He seemed thankful for this. I felt like I could carefully go there since he reached out and he genuinely seemed to want understanding and to bring peace. This is where we’ll see if he is a wedge driver. I don’t think he is at all but if he is then he would’ve taken what I said back to dd in a twisted way. This is the test y’all. I feel confident he won’t use it against us but if he does then I definitely know his position going forward and it’s helpful to know who is on your side and who is against you.  

[Scarlett]

15 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

They texted DH this morning to see if they could come over this evening to talk. Dh said ofc. I have high hopes because dd seems less emotional now. Also SIL and I texted a good bit yesterday about how he’s been trying to get her to have better perspective and he was asking for help with that. He said that his initial reaction to her was to say it wasn’t a huge deal but then she was just so devastated and continued to be that it was killing him to see her so hurt. I get his point and I really don’t want to be too hard on him for reaching out originally. I’ve been In the place Of seeing her so hurt and devastated and it triggers a lot of feelings in you. He will have to learn to deal with his own feelings if she has these issues often. Since she hasn’t had them a lot lately, this is still very new to him. Hopefully the change was a trigger and she’ll be grounded again. I was able to carefully express some of the past with dd and how I enabled it by justifying her big emotions and her poor treatment of others and how it wasn’t helpful to dd or me and it hurt others. I even told him that since he’s so empathetic he could easily fall into that place if he weren’t careful. He seemed thankful for this. I felt like I could carefully go there since he reached out and he genuinely seemed to want understanding and to bring peace. This is where we’ll see if he is a wedge driver. I don’t think he is at all but if he is then he would’ve taken what I said back to dd in a twisted way. This is the test y’all. I feel confident he won’t use it against us but if he does then I definitely know his position going forward and it’s helpful to know who is on your side and who is against you.  

As I was reading your post I was screaming, nooooooo.  Because that is my fear that he will twist your words and create more problems. But you are right….this will be a good measure of his true motives.  
 

 

[Lecka]

I think a big thing is reframing “what is kind” from actively stepping in to help someone, to letting them have a chance to figure things out on their own.

It does respect someone to think “she can handle this.”  
 

I think in general it doesn’t have to mean doing nothing at all, but it can mean doing nothing at all.  Or it can mean providing some support but stopping short of a previous level that was more appropriate when they were younger or when they truly needed more support.  
 

I also think, you can’t make someone experience self-reflection, but you can allow space for self-reflection.  Maybe the other person just can’t disengage to seek that space, but another person can.  
 

I think it is very hard to see a hurting person and not step in.  But when it’s a poor dynamic the dynamic has to change somewhere.  
 

It doesn’t mean it’s good immediately but maybe there’s space for someone to think things aren’t going well and maybe they go back to counseling or something.

 

I also think it still counts as being supportive even if the other person feels you are not being supportive in the way that person wants.  We can only control our own actions, but we can control our own actions.  It’s not a small thing.  Even though — sometimes it is very hard to do less/different without feeling like it’s not good enough.  
 

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

As I was reading your post I was screaming, nooooooo.  Because that is my fear that he will twist your words and create more problems. But you are right….this will be a good measure of his true motives.  
 

 

I really fear this but I also have to stop living in fear. Nothing I said was untrue and it was said in love and if it gets twisted then I truly know what I’m dealing with and whether there’s any hope. If he is determined to play her emotions to drive a wedge then there’s really nothing I can do to keep her. 

[Lecka]

I personally would think about a neutral location if it wouldn’t come across snitty.

Moving from your home is difficult for her and it seems like it might stir things up.  
 

Going for a walk can be nice if there’s no obvious place to go.

As well — sometimes people hd themselves together better in public.  

[Lecka]

That seems like it’s way too big of a thing to think about — am I right this is a pretty young adult?

She has got tons of time to learn, grow, and reflect.

She is not incapable of seeing through things with her husband over time, and he is also capable of being more mature over time and handling things better over time.

Maybe I am missing something but it really doesn’t seem like the stakes are losing her.

I would be more worried about the son deciding if there’s drama at family events he just quietly starts doing family events with his girlfriend’s family.  
 

I think it’s possible she might be mad for a while and wind up her husband to agree with her. 
 

But I don’t think it sounds like her husband is causing new behavior on her part, and more of his relationship with her has been when she has been doing better.

 

How does this relate to old dynamics you have with her?  Have you worried about losing her before?  Is it new because she’s married now?  
 

If it’s something you have thought before, did it happen on some level?  
 

Did you see it happen with another family member at some point?

[Ann.without.an.e]

6 minutes ago, Lecka said:

That seems like it’s way too big of a thing to think about — am I right this is a pretty young adult?

She has got tons of time to learn, grow, and reflect.

She is not incapable of seeing through things with her husband over time, and he is also capable of being more mature over time and handling things better over time.

Maybe I am missing something but it really doesn’t seem like the stakes are losing her.

I would be more worried about the son deciding if there’s drama at family events he just quietly starts doing family events with his girlfriend’s family.  
 

I think it’s possible she might be mad for a while and wind up her husband to agree with her. 
 

But I don’t think it sounds like her husband is causing new behavior on her part, and more of his relationship with her has been when she has been doing better.

 

How does this relate to old dynamics you have with her?  Have you worried about losing her before?  Is it new because she’s married now?  
 

If it’s something you have thought before, did it happen on some level?  
 

Did you see it happen with another family member at some point?

Some have shown concerning that he could be controlling and attempting to Isolate her and drive a wedge (I truly don’t think he is). If that is the case, losing her is a strong option. If someone is speaking negatively into her ear, feeding fears, creating false narratives then I can’t change that. 
 

and yes we lost a relationship with my in laws. There is someone there that spins complete lies and drives wedges so we lost his whole family. Devastating for DH. We put up with their lies and walked on eggshells and just stayed very quiet to keep peace but one day they just came up with all sorts of false things and cut us out over them. Completely made up stuff. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Scarlett]

This entire thread reminds me of a story my mom told me.

She was about 12.  So over 60 years ago.   There was a big family or community gathering and her whole family went and spent several hours.  Then there was food being served and her family had not brought food and so before people started eating her dad gathered his family up and they left.  My mom threw a huge fit.  She was just enraged that they couldn’t stay and eat.  She kept telling her dad, ‘ there is plenty of food!’ And he quietly told her, ‘but we did not bring any so we are leaving’.  As they got in the truck she kept up her big fit. She said through all of her fit throwing her parents both just said nothing.  And her 5 younger siblings said nothing.  So then my mom was basically yelling at the wind and she got to a point where she was just embarrassed and thought to herself, ‘this is dumb’.  
 

I think this is a similar approach @fairfarmhandmentioned……not giving big emotions any fuel.  

[Ann.without.an.e]

42 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

This entire thread reminds me of a story my mom told me.

She was about 12.  So over 60 years ago.   There was a big family or community gathering and her whole family went and spent several hours.  Then there was food being served and her family had not brought food and so before people started eating her dad gathered his family up and they left.  My mom threw a huge fit.  She was just enraged that they couldn’t stay and eat.  She kept telling her dad, ‘ there is plenty of food!’ And he quietly told her, ‘but we did not bring any so we are leaving’.  As they got in the truck she kept up her big fit. She said through all of her fit throwing her parents both just said nothing.  And her 5 younger siblings said nothing.  So then my mom was basically yelling at the wind and she got to a point where she was just embarrassed and thought to herself, ‘this is dumb’.  
 

I think this is a similar approach @fairfarmhandmentioned……not giving big emotions any fuel.  

That’s a great story Scarlett 

Thank you for sharing ❤️

[Ann.without.an.e]

Well I think he was trustworthy with it yall. 
Dd texted me this morning and said she was going to market this weekend and would love for me to join them if I wanted. 
SIL texted me this morning and thanked me for trusting him with our past hurt. I don’t think he said anything to her. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

Since some of my favorite people are already in this thread does anyone want to hear the absolutely precious thing my oldest SIL posted on Facebook yesterday about my o-dd? Absolutely precious. Melted my heart. 
Even though it’s on Facebook I still don’t want it to be the topic of a whole new thread since it feels personal. 

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I really fear this but I also have to stop living in fear. Nothing I said was untrue and it was said in love and if it gets twisted then I truly know what I’m dealing with and whether there’s any hope. If he is determined to play her emotions to drive a wedge then there’s really nothing I can do to keep her. 

I think you’re doing the right thing and I’m very encouraged that your DD & SIL want to get together with you. I hope your meeting with them goes very well, and that your SIL really was just feeling like he was stuck between a rock and a hard place, so that’s why he behaved the way he did.

[Scarlett]

44 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Since some of my favorite people are already in this thread does anyone want to hear the absolutely precious thing my oldest SIL posted on Facebook yesterday about my o-dd? Absolutely precious. Melted my heart. 
Even though it’s on Facebook I still don’t want it to be the topic of a whole new thread since it feels personal. 

 

Yes I want to hear.  

[Scarlett]

38 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I think you’re doing the right thing and I’m very encouraged that your DD & SIL want to get together with you. I hope your meeting with them goes very well, and that your SIL really was just feeling like he was stuck between a rock and a hard place, so that’s why he behaved the way he did.

I agree.  It could be he is just young and immature and needs to grow up a bit.  

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Since some of my favorite people are already in this thread does anyone want to hear the absolutely precious thing my oldest SIL posted on Facebook yesterday about my o-dd? Absolutely precious. Melted my heart. 
Even though it’s on Facebook I still don’t want it to be the topic of a whole new thread since it feels personal. 

 

I'd love to know what was posted on FB!  

Hope all goes well with the meeting.  Wishing you and your family all the best.  I could relate so much to this whole situation.