Engineering & CS majors

[silver]

I'm reading in the class of '23 thread about how hard it is to get into UC schools as an engineering or CS major. Is this unique to California, or is it like that at most public 4-years?

I know that, in general, the test scores/GPA of students admitted to engineering tend to be higher than a university's overall average; if I can't find a class profile broken down by college/degree program, is there a way to find that information out?

[Kassia]

Our experience has been that it really depends on the school.  The public university where my three sons graduated from didn't allow you into your major until you had completed certain courses and it was very competitive to get into the CS major (as well as other majors).  It was not direct admit and many students had to change majors because their GPA wasn't high enough.  Dd is a CS major at a different public university and they don't put a cap on CS students, but it's a disaster because they have way more CS students than they can handle - they don't have enough advisors, professors, lecture halls, etc. to accommodate the students.  

 

[EmilyGF]

At University of Illinois in 2019, the general university had a 62% admittance rate and CS had a 15%. 

Now, the applications have gone way up and the admit rate for CS has gone down.

Emily

[Farrar]

Admit rates are down across the board for engineering and CS. There are a few places with acceptance rates that are super stark like that. But... mostly it's not quite so bad as California. And there are definitely many ways into engineering and CS at schools with higher admit rates, including some really good schools. My best advice is don't be a snob about it. Lots of schools with high acceptance rates have amazing programs. As long as you're not chasing a name, your kid will have some options. 

There's a real shortage of faculty for these schools, which is why many schools would like to expand, but can't. And why there's demand for these jobs, but programs aren't expanding.

One of the things about many students from California is that they are less willing to leave CA. That makes those spots even more competitive. Students will often choose community college (and the CA CC's are very good) with a path to the UC's over a 4 year in a "less desirable" location.

 

[regentrude]

Not generally. At the STEM campus of our state's public university system, most engineering students get admitted as undeclared Freshman engineering. They get admitted into their departments after the first three semesters based on college GPA. Comp Sci is direct admit. Neither have more stringent admission criteria than other majors on our campus.

[8filltheheart]

Definitely depends on the state/school.  Not all engineering and CS programs have harder admission rates.

[Lori D.]

Yes, definitely depends on the state and school. Same reality here in my (not CA) state, as what @regentrude and @8filltheheart have in their (also not CA) states.

DS#1's experience was plenty of openings and easy admittance in Engineering at our local public university. He did 2 years at the community college (doing the specific direct-transfer engineering courses) and transferred into the state public university. He just graduated in Dec. with his BS in Mech. Eng. -- all smooth and easy-peasy as far as acceptance, transfer, and completion.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Lori D.

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, silver said:

I'm reading in the class of '23 thread about how hard it is to get into UC schools as an engineering or CS major. Is this unique to California, or is it like that at most public 4-years?

Check if the college and major is impacted. That’s why those of us in California says its hard to get into state universities. Basically demand higher than supply.

https://edsource.org/2019/california-must-build-the-capacity-of-its-public-universities-to-admit-more-computer-science-majors/620254?amp=1 (2019)

”In response to inadequate capacity to respond to surging student demand, criteria for admission into a computer science major at the UC and CSU have necessarily become increasingly selective. Every UC campus, and 9 of the 23 CSU campuses, has now declared computer science departments as “impacted” — restricting their admissions.”

https://www.calstate.edu/attend/degrees-certificates-credentials/Pages/impacted-degrees.aspx (current)

”Academic Program Impaction for 2022-23

All undergraduate programs, pre-programs, and undeclared/undecided programs are impacted for the following campuses:

• Cal Poly San Luis Obispo
• Fresno State
• CSU Fullerton
• Cal State LA
• CSU Long Beach
• San Diego State University
• San José State”

[Roadrunner]

And  I thought engineering was a particularly impossible major to get into everywhere, including privates. I am really seeing things through CA glasses. 

[Matryoshka]

My dd was a CS major who went to an in-state public university that also had coop opportunities  - she chose that one over the flagship (and some private and OOS publics) because they offered her more $ and the coop opportunities, which she took full advantage of and had a very generous job offer for after graduation before she even started her senior year.

According to the interwebs, our state's public U's CS depts (both flagship and the one dd went to, and the flagship is top 20 for CS) have about a 25% acceptance rate.

Have to say I'm also horrified by the stories I hear about the CA schools not having classes available to students who need them - that's also not the case elsewhere.  None of my kids at their public Us had trouble getting classes they wanted and graduating on time, even with minors/double majors.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Matryoshka

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

And  I thought engineering was a particularly impossible major to get into everywhere, including privates. I am really seeing things through CA glasses. 

At some of these other top publics, it does have a really small acceptance rate that is sometimes a big gap from the overall acceptance at the school. Your University of Washington, U. Michigan type places. And there are many schools where the engineering and the CS majors do have lower acceptance rates. Like, some really good schools for engineering that have higher acceptance rates overall, like, say, NCSU or RIT, do have slightly lower acceptance rates for engineering - though nothing like what you're thinking of for the UC's or UW's 3% CS acceptance rate. But overall, this is a narrow range of schools nationwide that even have any additional hurdles to getting to engineering. There are plenty of places if a student is willing to look more broadly at options and not turn their nose up at them. I think that's the bigger sticking point.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Farrar

[Roadrunner]

5 minutes ago, Farrar said:

At some of these other top publics, it does have a really small acceptance rate that is sometimes a big gap from the overall acceptance at the school. Your University of Washington, U. Michigan type places. And there are many schools where the engineering and the CS majors do have lower acceptance rates. Like, some really good schools for engineering that have higher acceptance rates overall, like, say, NCSU or RIT, do have lower acceptance rates for engineering. But overall, this is a narrow range of schools nationwide that even have any additional hurdles to getting to engineering. There are plenty of places if a student is willing to look more broadly at options and not turn their nose up at them. I think that's the bigger sticking point.

I think for most CA kids it’s the lack of drivable out of state options rather than sticking the nose up. It’s just easier for east coast kids to go out of state when it only requires a 3 hour ride with a car. Here you drive 10 hours and still all you see is wonders of NV desert. 😉

I am amazed how many 18 year olds know what they want. Mine wants to dab before committing to anything. 
 

Would you say in private schools, say Wake Forest as an example, it’s harder to get into engineering than other departments? 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Roadrunner

[Farrar]

17 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Would you say in private schools, say Wake Forest as an example, it’s harder to get into engineering than other departments? 

I don't think Wake admits by major. At these smaller schools, it's way easier to be a dabbler. Engineering isn't amazing at Wake Forest, but the school itself has a lot of appealing traits - including the ability to be undecided.

[Clarita]

Where were you guys to tell me this when I was looking at colleges?! Why was my mom not looking at this thread 20 years ago!

[MamaSprout]

In Indiana, Purdue is 25-30% admit for CS and Engineering this year. There are regional Purdue campuses that are even cheaper and easier to get into and have good faculty and facilities. We get a lot of kids in engineering programs from the coasts- California especially- even our privates are a good deal because cost of living is lower here when you start looking at apartments and such.

Dd also applied engineering to three private unis with engineering. They were all slightly less selective- 50% to 75% acceptance. I work at a private uni that’s probably 85% acceptance to engineering and CS. (dd did DE there) The privates don’t all have every type of engineering and vary widely in cost and quality. Two of the privates she applied to were pretty well known, so I was surprised that their acceptance rates were fairly high. The third was a good- but- rolling admission school that had both engineering and a music programs for non majors.

Edited June 15, 2022 by MamaSprout

[8filltheheart]

8 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

And  I thought engineering was a particularly impossible major to get into everywhere, including privates. I am really seeing things through CA glasses. 

SD School of Mines and Technology

NM Tech

UAH

TN Tech

NV-Reno

Those are just a handful off the top of my head that have very high acceptance rates.  THey don't meet your criteria of being within 3 hrs of home, but the idea that majors are impacted nationwide is not accurate.  CA is its very own bubble.

 

[Clemsondana]

And, it can be hard to get any idea of your chances of admission from sites like College Confidential.  For kicks, I plugged in my kid's numbers.  It was showing a 50%ish chance of admission at schools like Clemson and VA Tech (kid wants to do engineering or CS at a good-sized school in a small town, likely in the south).  Some of these schools are having huge increases in out of state applicants, so I found the numbers plausible...until I searched TN Tech, where it put kid's chances of admission at 85%.  But, we are in state for TN Tech, and with kid's stats and scores kid has guaranteed scholarship $, so it seems unlikely that their chances of admission is only 85%...which makes me question the numbers for other schools.  The sites seem to be trying to make people panic - if a kid is guaranteed $ at a school that they'd be OK with attending, then they don't need to apply to a bunch of safety schools...and, of course, if kid's didn't apply to a ton of schools, then acceptance rates would be higher everywhere because there would be fewer applicants.  

[Farrar]

Just now, Clemsondana said:

And, it can be hard to get any idea of your chances of admission from sites like College Confidential.  For kicks, I plugged in my kid's numbers.  It was showing a 50%ish chance of admission at schools like Clemson and VA Tech (kid wants to do engineering or CS at a good-sized school in a small town, likely in the south).  Some of these schools are having huge increases in out of state applicants, so I found the numbers plausible...until I searched TN Tech, where it put kid's chances of admission at 85%.  But, we are in state for TN Tech, and with kid's stats and scores kid has guaranteed scholarship $, so it seems unlikely that their chances of admission is only 85%...which makes me question the numbers for other schools.  The sites seem to be trying to make people panic - if a kid is guaranteed $ at a school that they'd be OK with attending, then they don't need to apply to a bunch of safety schools...and, of course, if kid's didn't apply to a ton of schools, then acceptance rates would be higher everywhere because there would be fewer applicants.  

I've seen the numbers on those sites be really off in both directions, so definitely grain of salt. Those calculators don't know how to contextualize a student in terms of course rigor or activity list very well, among other issues.

[Roadrunner]

4 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

In Indiana, Purdue is 25-30% admit for CS and Engineering this year. There are regional Purdue campuses that are even cheaper and easier to get into and have good faculty and facilities. We get a lot of kids in engineering programs from the coasts- California especially- even our privates are a good deal because cost of living is lower here when you start looking at apartments and such.

Dd also applied engineering to three private unis with engineering. They were all slightly less selective- 50% to 75% acceptance. I work at a private uni that’s probably 85% acceptance to engineering and CS. (dd did DE there) The privates don’t all have every type of engineering and vary widely in cost and quality. Two of the privates she applied to were pretty well known, so I was surprised that their acceptance rates were fairly high. The third was a good- but- rolling admission school that had both engineering and a music programs for non majors.

Purdue is much higher acceptance for in state and much lower for out of state. So 25-30% might be a bit deceiving. 
 

CA has an equivalent in Cal Poly. 

[MamaSprout]

7 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Purdue is much higher acceptance for in state and much lower for out of state. So 25-30% might be a bit deceiving. 
 

CA has an equivalent in Cal Poly. 

No- that’s the total that Purdue gave us for everyone at the accepted student’s day.

[Momto6inIN]

I live in Indiana and know several well qualifed kids in state that didn't get into Purdue engineering. My oldest DS got into Purdue CS 4 years ago but got no scholarship money at all. He got in to several other less competitive programs also but for the less competitive schools he got quite a bit of scholarship money thrown at him. I know 25-30% isn't highly selective or in the Ivy League realm of stats, but it does still mean that lots of qualified kids get rejected. A less well known school for engineering or CS might be different.

[Roadrunner]

12 minutes ago, MamaSprout said:

No- that’s the total that Purdue gave us for everyone at the accepted student’s day.

I know it’s total, but if you were to break it out, there are differences in acceptance rate for in and out of state kids, understandably. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Roadrunner

[teachermom2834]

It’s actually the opposite in my state (TN). So many kids go to college planning to go into engineering and have to switch out of it because they just can’t do it. It’s been awhile since I’ve been on college tours around the state but at least a few years back I remember seeing things like automatic admit to the colleges of engineering with something like a 25 math ACT at some schools and there were other paths to get into the major. So not like you have tons of highly qualified STEM kids being turned away. More the opposite of kids starting in engineering and switching out. But nice that kids have a chance even if they didn’t have a great high school background or late bloomer or whatever.  So there are schools where it is accessible. 
 

These aren’t bad schools. If you get an engineering degree from University of Tennessee or TN Tech or UT- Chattanooga you are going to do just fine. 
 

I realize not everyone wants to move to TN. Just making the point that there are some schools out there where you can just go be an engineering major if you have the drive and ability. 

[MamaSprout]

8 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I know it’s total, but if you were to break it out, there are differences in acceptance rate for in and out of state kids, understandably. 

Yes, but in conversations with them it's a small bump for in-state. ETA Purdue has historically encouraged both out of state and international students because of the tuition bump. My older dd's dorm was 40% international students freshman year. Since Covid, I'm sure that has changed.

Edited June 15, 2022 by MamaSprout

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

SD School of Mines and Technology

NM Tech

UAH

TN Tech

NV-Reno

Those are just a handful off the top of my head that have very high acceptance rates.  THey don't meet your criteria of being within 3 hrs of home, but the idea that majors are impacted nationwide is not accurate.  CA is its very own bubble.

 

It is my kids that want to stay as near home as possible. @Roadrunner kids are okay with going out of state.  My kids have been to UNR. The location is 5hrs drive from home and it would be hard to evacuate in a wildfire. 

[Matryoshka]

50 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Purdue is much higher acceptance for in state and much lower for out of state. So 25-30% might be a bit deceiving. 

It's the opposite at our state flagship.  It's much harder to get in as an in-state student.  Out-of-state students get in with lower stats (I think they avg 23 points lower on their SATs).  They, of course, want the extra money out-of-state students bring in.  Neither of my nephews got in (and that was for general admit, not a competitive major).

[chiguirre]

49 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

It is my kids that want to stay as near home as possible. @Roadrunner kids are okay with going out of state.  My kids have been to UNR. The location is 5hrs drive from home and it would be hard to evacuate in a wildfire. 

If your kids are okay with doing an online degree, they should check out U of Florida's online CS degree. FSU, U Central Florida and Florida International U also have online CS programs, but UF's is the highest ranked and, looking at their course selections, I think it's the most solid. FSU has a track specifically geared to preparing for grad school, so that might also be a good option.

[Lawyer&Mom]

13 hours ago, Farrar said:

At some of these other top publics, it does have a really small acceptance rate that is sometimes a big gap from the overall acceptance at the school. Your University of Washington, U. Michigan type places. And there are many schools where the engineering and the CS majors do have lower acceptance rates. Like, some really good schools for engineering that have higher acceptance rates overall, like, say, NCSU or RIT, do have slightly lower acceptance rates for engineering - though nothing like what you're thinking of for the UC's or UW's 3% CS acceptance rate. But overall, this is a narrow range of schools nationwide that even have any additional hurdles to getting to engineering. There are plenty of places if a student is willing to look more broadly at options and not turn their nose up at them. I think that's the bigger sticking point.

California kids have instate options too, if they are willing to look outside the big name CSUs.  There are a ton of CSU campuses that are not impacted for CS or engineering.

https://www.calstate.edu/attend/impaction-at-the-csu/Documents/ImpactedProgramsMatrix.pdf

(Hey, I was a California kid who wouldn’t consider UC Davis back in the day, much less Sonoma State, so I know it isn’t easy, but the options are out there.)

[Farrar]

1 minute ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

California kids have instate options too, if they are willing to look outside the big name CSUs.  There are a ton of CSU campuses that are not impacted for CS or engineering.

https://www.calstate.edu/attend/impaction-at-the-csu/Documents/ImpactedProgramsMatrix.pdf

(Hey, I was a California kid who wouldn’t consider UC Davis back in the day, much less Sonoma State, so I know it isn’t easy, but the options are out there.)

They do, but I recognize that the CSU's can be tricky for PSA applicants. And even then, some of the acceptance rates are still rougher even when the majors aren't impacted. But yeah, second tier and even lower there are more options everywhere... the example of Indiana above - many kids aren't going to make it into Purdue, but they can potentially look at IUPUI. In NC, many kids won't get into NCSU, but they have a pretty good shot at UNC-Charlotte.

[MamaSprout]

49 minutes ago, Farrar said:

They do, but I recognize that the CSU's can be tricky for PSA applicants. And even then, some of the acceptance rates are still rougher even when the majors aren't impacted. But yeah, second tier and even lower there are more options everywhere... the example of Indiana above - many kids aren't going to make it into Purdue, but they can potentially look at IUPUI. In NC, many kids won't get into NCSU, but they have a pretty good shot at UNC-Charlotte.

And PFW ranks higher than some schools many people have heard of for undergrad engineering, as do some other regional campuses for other flagship schools. For kids who are kind of "over" the idea of the freshman college experience, they can be a really good fit because housing is often apartments and most students have jobs and lives outside of school.

[Roadrunner]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

They do, but I recognize that the CSU's can be tricky for PSA applicants. And even then, some of the acceptance rates are still rougher even when the majors aren't impacted. But yeah, second tier and even lower there are more options everywhere... the example of Indiana above - many kids aren't going to make it into Purdue, but they can potentially look at IUPUI. In NC, many kids won't get into NCSU, but they have a pretty good shot at UNC-Charlotte.

Oh yes, we won’t even bother with CSUs because of PSA thing. We have seen how they treat PSA kids including our own Arcadia’s DS. 
 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Roadrunner

[catz]

So my kid attends a big 10 University with a top 15 CS department.  He is a CS major (and has a 2nd unrelated degree).

I will say admissions are every harder for out of state applicants to that University.  They are more generous with admissions for residents which makes sense.  We are OOS. This school does attract alot of CA applicants actually.  

That said, for admissions purposes, you don't really declare a CS major until you have some intial math/CS sequencing done.  Then you can apply to the program.  So admissions to get in is not harder than it is for any degree in that college.  Even though the CS department straddles the school of engineering and lots of class overlaps there.  

That said, the attrition happens on the back end.  Students get into the classes, decide they don't like it, don't do well, don't move on in sequences, GPA drops, etc.  So many students come in and think they want to do CS but end up changing major.  So I do think some "easier" to get into programs are misleading, especially if they are rigorous and well regarded.  But on that same line of thinking, I always think when you send a kid to a college with a degree in mind, ideally there is some flexibility there in case they want to change course.  Statisically like 60%+ end up changing degree and so many kids are encouraged down STEM roads right now.  

Our own state's flagship has a great CS department, also a rigorous program.  Actually, my spouse and I both graduated in that many years ago there!  My spouse works at a large company on the east coast and many peer and subordinates out of fancier schools, so no regrets.  Similar as above school my oldest is at, although their BS CS degree is in the college of engineering so initial admissions is harder (though that OOS vs IS thing comes in again).  I think you can do a BA CS through the liberal arts college and apply to switch over to engineering if you're in good standing.  (my kid considered this school too, they worked out to about the same price for us due to a suprise scholarship).  

I sadly know a CA engineering student who just locked in a paying I know more than they can afford for an undergrad degree OOS because of poor results with admissions in CA.  😞  I am glad we don't live there, we've been offered relocation packages a couple times to west coast.  Things just seem ridiculous.  

My spouse has been involved with hiring for years and lots of public flagship programs are favored and considered rigorous for CS.  

[Lori D.]

8 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

SD School of Mines and Technology
NM Tech
UAH
TN Tech
NV-Reno

Those are just a handful off the top of my head that have very high acceptance rates.  THey don't meet your criteria of being within 3 hrs of home, but the idea that majors are impacted nationwide is not accurate.  CA is its very own bubble.

Adding: University of Arizona in Tucson AZ (not to be confused with AZ State Univ. in Phoenix):
- big Engineering dept. with 16 different Eng. majors
- can come in Undecided
- part of the WUE (Western Undergraduate Exchange), which reduces out of state tuition somewhat
- 85-90% acceptance rate (whether in-state OR out-of-state)

UA is getting good rep as a research school and for its graduate programs, but I know a ton of homeschoolers who have earned their Eng. undergrad at UA and were immediately employed upon graduation. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Lori D.

[catz]

One thing I was going to mention, is because the quality and preparation of applicants is ever higher at my kid's big 10 university though, more kids ARE moving on in the CS program.  So they are having some growing pains and some kids need to waitlist for classes, etc.  They are actively working to hire and expand the department and have a new building coming as well. 

But I will say, my kid has had NO problem with getting the classes he needs or working with advisors (meets with one in each of his degrees every semester, they are readily available for additional questions) nor have his STEM roomies, so I do feel like some of that is possibly somewhat overblown.   And he is a rising senior who is allegedy graduating in 2 semesters with 2 degrees so he says.  😁