Vaccine Passports?

[Corraleno]

53 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yes but Europe helped the Holocaust by recording the Jews.  Let us say we get the centralization of info you want. Trump wins in 2024. Would you be comfortable with what he could do if he knew where every illegal alien lived in this country?  In thinking of scenarios like this. I may be comfortable if “my” person is in power, but how would I feel if the other person was? There are so many nefarious ways the info could be used.

Why on earth would citizenship need to be part of a vaccine database??? I provided my name, DOB, and current address, there were zero questions about citizenship. Comparing electronic vaccine records (that already exist in many states) to Hitler registering Jews, and claiming that vaccine records would somehow let Trump know "where every illegal alien lives" is just nonsensical. 

[Matryoshka]

47 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

But SHOULD it be done???? As I said, I don’t wsnt to repeat the Holocaust and I no longer believe either party would prevent something like that in the US. 

Heavens to Betsy.  The Holocaust had absolutely NOTHING to do with vaccines or public health measures.  Public health measures are as old as the hills.  Leviticus tells people who are contagious to stay home and freaking cover the lower part of their face.  Yes, the concept of wearing a mask to avoid spreading germs goes back to Biblical times.

My dd showed my this quote by Martin Luther who was writing about people's behavior during the Black Death.  Which goes to show that there, again, is nothing new under the sun, and apparently humans gonna human.  (also quoting a bit from the article that introduces the quote).

Most of Luther’s advice in this treatise is aimed at those fearful souls who were tempted to abandon their duties in a time of crisis. But he also acknowledges that there is another danger, what he calls “tempting God.” I will quote Luther at length here because it seems to me that his advice is particularly timely in our situation:

Others sin on the right hand. They are much too rash and reckless, tempting God and disregarding everything which might counteract death and the plague. They disdain the use of medicines; they do not avoid places and persons infected by the plague, but lightheartedly make sport of it and wish to prove how independent they are. They say that it is God’s punishment; if he wants to protect them he can do so without medicines or our carefulness. That is not trusting God but tempting him. . . .

No, my dear friends, that is no good. Use medicine; take potions which can help you; fumigate house, yard, and street; shun persons and places where your neighbor does not need your presence or has recovered, and act like a man who wants to help put out the burning city. What else is the epidemic but a fire which instead of consuming wood and straw devours life and body? You ought to think this way: “Very well, by God’s decree the enemy has sent us poison and deadly offal. Therefore I shall ask God mercifully to protect us. Then I shall fumigate, help purify the air, administer medicine, and take it. I shall avoid persons and places where my presence is not needed in order not to become contaminated and thus perchance infect and pollute others, and so cause their death as a result of my negligence. If God should wish to take me, he will surely find me, and I have done what he has expected of me and so I am not responsible for either my own death or the death of others. If my neighbor needs me, however, I shall not avoid place or person but will go freely, as stated above. See, this is such a God-fearing faith because it is neither brash nor foolhardy and does not tempt God.” 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Matryoshka

[TexasProud]

2 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Heavens to Betsy.  The Holocaust had absolutely NOTHING to do with vaccines or public health measures.  Public health measures are as old as the hills.  Leviticus tells people who are contagious to stay home and freaking cover the lower part of their face.  Yes, the concept of wearing a mask to avoid spreading germs goes back to Biblical times.

My dd showed my this quote by Martin Luther who was writing about people's behavior during the Black Death.  Which goes to show that there, again, is nothing new under the sun, and apparently humans gonna human.  (also quoting a bit from the article that introduces the quote).

Most of Luther’s advice in this treatise is aimed at those fearful souls who were tempted to abandon their duties in a time of crisis. But he also acknowledges that there is another danger, what he calls “tempting God.” I will quote Luther at length here because it seems to me that his advice is particularly timely in our situation:

Others sin on the right hand. They are much too rash and reckless, tempting God and disregarding everything which might counteract death and the plague. They disdain the use of medicines; they do not avoid places and persons infected by the plague, but lightheartedly make sport of it and wish to prove how independent they are. They say that it is God’s punishment; if he wants to protect them he can do so without medicines or our carefulness. That is not trusting God but tempting him. . . .

No, my dear friends, that is no good. Use medicine; take potions which can help you; fumigate house, yard, and street; shun persons and places where your neighbor does not need your presence or has recovered, and act like a man who wants to help put out the burning city. What else is the epidemic but a fire which instead of consuming wood and straw devours life and body? You ought to think this way: “Very well, by God’s decree the enemy has sent us poison and deadly offal. Therefore I shall ask God mercifully to protect us. Then I shall fumigate, help purify the air, administer medicine, and take it. I shall avoid persons and places where my presence is not needed in order not to become contaminated and thus perchance infect and pollute others, and so cause their death as a result of my negligence. If God should wish to take me, he will surely find me, and I have done what he has expected of me and so I am not responsible for either my own death or the death of others. If my neighbor needs me, however, I shall not avoid place or person but will go freely, as stated above. See, this is such a God-fearing faith because it is neither brash nor foolhardy and does not tempt God.” 

AGAIN.  I AM TH ONLY PERSON WEARING A MADK AROUNF HERE.  I think you are right it is tempting God. THAT IS MY POINT.  NEITHER PARTY CARES. NO ONE DOES. 

[TexasProud]

 I AGREE WITH PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURES. Can I be anymore clear. 

But people are just horrible. They don’t care. We are doomed as a society. My only point. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, TexasProud said:

 

But people are just horrible. They don’t care. We are doomed as a society. My only point. 

Absolutely how I feel this morning! 

 

[Matryoshka]

Just now, TexasProud said:

 I AGREE WITH PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURES. Can I be anymore clear. 

But people are just horrible. They don’t care. We are doomed as a society. My only point. 

Yeah, sorry, I was riffing off your comment, but that wasn't aimed at you.  And kind of my point was apparently we've always been doomed.  I mean, if people were doing the same things during the freaking actual PLAGUE, which killed something like 25% of the population.... well.  I had thought that we had evolved a bit, but apparently NOT... Sigh.

[Corraleno]

16 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

AGAIN.  I AM TH ONLY PERSON WEARING A MADK AROUNF HERE.  I think you are right it is tempting God. THAT IS MY POINT.  NEITHER PARTY CARES. NO ONE DOES. 

According to this, 90% of Democrats are vaccinated:

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-september-2021/?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210928&instance_id=41490&nl=the-morning&regi_id=115228995&segment_id=70082&te=1&user_id=1a4509383bb63d42f1b7bbd21f59db8b

Edited September 29, 2021 by Corraleno

[Melissa Louise]

Our vax records are on our Medicare page, you just screenshot it as your 'passport'. Everyone has a Medicare page so it's not a drama. 

It's not the lead in to anything. 

My concern re passports is the low paid workers who have to 'enforce' them. I've already got a family member assaulted by a member of the public at her workplace when he wasn't pleased with her answer.

I've told Ds when he is back at work in a few weeks, he is not to confront anyone without their passport but to refer everything to the manager. He's not paid to be a security guard, and he's not trained to be one either.

[KSera]

17 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Heavens to Betsy.  The Holocaust had absolutely NOTHING to do with vaccines or public health measures.  Public health measures are as old as the hills.  Leviticus tells people who are contagious to stay home and freaking cover the lower part of their face.  Yes, the concept of wearing a mask to avoid spreading germs goes back to Biblical times.

My dd showed my this quote by Martin Luther who was writing about people's behavior during the Black Death.  Which goes to show that there, again, is nothing new under the sun, and apparently humans gonna human.  (also quoting a bit from the article that introduces the quote).

Most of Luther’s advice in this treatise is aimed at those fearful souls who were tempted to abandon their duties in a time of crisis. But he also acknowledges that there is another danger, what he calls “tempting God.” I will quote Luther at length here because it seems to me that his advice is particularly timely in our situation:

Others sin on the right hand. They are much too rash and reckless, tempting God and disregarding everything which might counteract death and the plague. They disdain the use of medicines; they do not avoid places and persons infected by the plague, but lightheartedly make sport of it and wish to prove how independent they are. They say that it is God’s punishment; if he wants to protect them he can do so without medicines or our carefulness. That is not trusting God but tempting him. . . .

No, my dear friends, that is no good. Use medicine; take potions which can help you; fumigate house, yard, and street; shun persons and places where your neighbor does not need your presence or has recovered, and act like a man who wants to help put out the burning city. What else is the epidemic but a fire which instead of consuming wood and straw devours life and body? You ought to think this way: “Very well, by God’s decree the enemy has sent us poison and deadly offal. Therefore I shall ask God mercifully to protect us. Then I shall fumigate, help purify the air, administer medicine, and take it. I shall avoid persons and places where my presence is not needed in order not to become contaminated and thus perchance infect and pollute others, and so cause their death as a result of my negligence. If God should wish to take me, he will surely find me, and I have done what he has expected of me and so I am not responsible for either my own death or the death of others. If my neighbor needs me, however, I shall not avoid place or person but will go freely, as stated above. See, this is such a God-fearing faith because it is neither brash nor foolhardy and does not tempt God.” 

I can’t believe 18 months into this and this is the first time I have seen that. That was fascinating. Thanks for sharing. 

13 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

AGAIN.  I AM TH ONLY PERSON WEARING A MADK AROUNF HERE.  I think you are right it is tempting God. THAT IS MY POINT.  NEITHER PARTY CARES. NO ONE DOES. 

What does this have to do with party? 🤨

[TexasProud]

[Deleted by moderator for inappropriate language]

Edited September 30, 2021 by Rosie_0801

[Melissa Louise]

25 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

[Deleted by moderator for inappropriate language]

Can you please be a bit more circumspect with your language here? 

[Rosie_0801]

No politics, please, or this thread is going to be first in line to meet its doom.

[TexasProud]

My language is fine. I told the truth about what is done.

[HSMWB]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

My concern re passports is the low paid workers who have to 'enforce' them. I've already got a family member assaulted by a member of the public at her workplace when he wasn't pleased with her answer.

I think this is another angle that really probably needs to be considered, especially in the US.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, TexasProud said:

My language is fine. I told the truth about what is done.

You are in mixed company. People normally moderate their language when in mixed company. There are ways to describe being politically homeless ( I really empathise with this), without using inaccurate, inflammatory language.

Anyway, back to passports. 

 

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, Bootsie said:

Yes, it would help know who is where when we need to vaccinate during a pandemic, but it also opens up issues regarding knowing who is in this country with documentation and who is not.  It also means that the government knows who is living with whom--which can help in a pandemic but raises all other type of concerns.  It is simply a matter if we want the government to be able to track officially who has and has not had a vaccine there must be a system in place to identify who is who in our country.  If we were to record officially who is gettting a vaccine using a unique record tied to that person, anyone in the country without documentation would not be able to receive a vaccine; that is a very big public health concern, especially in some areas of the US.  

You can know who someone is and where they live without needing to know their citizenship status. The two do not HAVE to go together. 

[TexasProud]

Post deleted because I already asked you to stop.

[Bootsie]

15 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

You can know who someone is and where they live without needing to know their citizenship status. The two do not HAVE to go together. 

While the two do not HAVE to go together, they often do.  I also know people who are AFRAID that the two go together.  If people think that they must tell someone who they are (and that is recorded somewhere), some people are afraid to come forward and get vaccinated because it will reveal that they are in the US undocumented.  Or, if they reveal where they live, it will become apparent that there are 10 people living in one apartment in violation of fire codes and local ordinances.  

Generally, the way we verify identity is asking for a government-issued, photo ID.  Someone may show a government-issued, photo ID without revealing their citizenship, but the starting point for that ID is some document that shows nationality which hinders some people from geting an ID.  

[Dmmetler]

The NBA arena here is using the CLEAR app optionally. It links to a vaccine or test record at specific pharmacies, or you can upload your data, and generates a QR code. This can then be linked to your purchased E-ticket, so you can scan only one QR code and get in with your phone.

If you don't choose to go that route, you can show a physical card and ID, but are warned that it will take longer to get in and be admitted, and they’re doing only e-tickets, so you’d still need to scan a phone or have a printed piece of paper from a computer. I’m not sure if you need to do the photo stuff to buy a ticket or not-it’s been over 2 years since I went to anything there.

I installed it to see what was asked for, and they do want you to scan a state ID or Passport and do facial recognition to match that it is you, as well as matching the name/birthdate on your vaccine record, and, for shots not given at a participating pharmacy, the site of the clinic. (Mine was able to pull up all three of mine from my photo ID, FYI). 

So, yes, if you cannot get a photo ID and do not have a passport from any country, you would be unable to use this app. 

 

[Bootsie]

I just got a text from CVS with a link for me to sign up for my booster that I am eligible for since I had my second shot on March 30--

But:

I did not recieve a COVID vaccine at CVS; I did not receive Pfizer; I did not receive a vaccine on March 30.  And, even if I had, I would not fit the booster qualification demographics.  

Given that they are tying this to a March 30th vaccine, all I can figure out is that they have crossed my records with a family member who I know would have received a vaccine about that time and is over 65--that family member is 100s of miles from me...  

 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

The NBA arena here is using the CLEAR app optionally. It links to a vaccine or test record at specific pharmacies, or you can upload your data, and generates a QR code. This can then be linked to your purchased E-ticket, so you can scan only one QR code and get in with your phone.

If you don't choose to go that route, you can show a physical card and ID, but are warned that it will take longer to get in and be admitted, and they’re doing only e-tickets, so you’d still need to scan a phone or have a printed piece of paper from a computer. I’m not sure if you need to do the photo stuff to buy a ticket or not-it’s been over 2 years since I went to anything there.

I installed it to see what was asked for, and they do want you to scan a state ID or Passport and do facial recognition to match that it is you, as well as matching the name/birthdate on your vaccine record, and, for shots not given at a participating pharmacy, the site of the clinic. (Mine was able to pull up all three of mine from my photo ID, FYI). 

So, yes, if you cannot get a photo ID and do not have a passport from any country, you would be unable to use this app. 

 

My brother described a similiar setup for a sporting event he recently went to. He wasn't able to use the app because he has two vaccine cards, and the app wasn't set up for that, so he just showed those instead. It looks like he can have a way to do it with the QR code his state database provides. So, it does look like they are providing lots of options for people.

[SlowRiver]

On 9/29/2021 at 2:59 PM, MEmama said:

How could I? I’m not an expert. Lol. And to be honest, I don’t even have an opinion on your statement because I don't understand your concerns about civil liberties in this instance. 🤷‍♀️

I will say that it is my suspicion that people who claim to not want something like proof of vaccination because something something a few people might not find it easy something something—ie: issues they probably don’t care about consistently or vote to empower and change—are using them as excuses. The US isn’t special, we aren’t unique. Every country has undocumented workers, people living in dire poverty, people living outside the “normal” reach of government and services. While those are undoubtedly problems, the place to fix them in is at the voting booth, not in a hypothetical debate about showing proof of vaccination when you want to dine out. 
 

You don't understand why civil liberties are considered an issue with a vaccine passport?

There are significant questions around bodily autonomy, privacy, medical decision making, for example. There are questions around liability. There are questions around medical insurance and who can use information.

The ACLU is pretty wishy-washy these days, but even they see some real issues around the idea.

https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/theres-a-lot-that-can-go-wrong-with-vaccine-passports/

[SlowRiver]

And that isn't just an American issue pushed by libertarians. The Canadian civil liberties group also thinks it's concerning, it's recognized as an issue in the UK, Europe, Australia.

The fact that so many people don't even seem to understand why it's a civil liberties issue, or who poo-poo it, is almost as concerning as the thing in itself. It doesn't create much sense that they will draw sensible lines or be wary.

https://theconversation.com/compulsory-vaccination-what-does-human-rights-law-say-167735

[Laura Corin]

4 minutes ago, SlowRiver said:

And that isn't just an American issue pushed by libertarians. The Canadian civil liberties group also thinks it's concerning, it's recognized as an issue in the UK, Europe, Australia.

The fact that so many people don't even seem to understand why it's a civil liberties issue, or who poo-poo it, is almost as concerning as the thing in itself. It doesn't create much sense that they will draw sensible lines or be wary.

https://theconversation.com/compulsory-vaccination-what-does-human-rights-law-say-167735

Your link is regarding mandatory vaccination,  not vaccine passports. Scotland's vps are for optional leisure activities such as visiting a nightclub.

[Faith-manor]

30 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Your link is regarding mandatory vaccination,  not vaccine passports. Scotland's vps are for optional leisure activities such as visiting a nightclub.

This. The Detroit Symphony Requires Vaccine proof to attend their concerts. There is nothing wrong with that. No one ahs a constitutional right to attend a concert. Don't like it? Don't go.

Restaurants, sporting events, clubs, these are all things that are luxuries. No one has a right to them. So it may suck to not be able to go to them if one refuses to vaccinate or show proof of vax, but that is not a legal conundrum.

[ealp2009]

On 9/30/2021 at 12:31 PM, Bootsie said:

I just got a text from CVS with a link for me to sign up for my booster that I am eligible for since I had my second shot on March 30--

But:

I did not recieve a COVID vaccine at CVS; I did not receive Pfizer; I did not receive a vaccine on March 30.  And, even if I had, I would not fit the booster qualification demographics.  

Given that they are tying this to a March 30th vaccine, all I can figure out is that they have crossed my records with a family member who I know would have received a vaccine about that time and is over 65--that family member is 100s of miles from me...  

 

This is interesting.  My state has a vaccine registry and at least two of my children’s records are completely wrong, they have wrong dates listed and wrong vaccines listed.  It is not particularly confidence inspiring.   I have tried to correct it and I have determined it’s futile.   

[SlowRiver]

16 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Your link is regarding mandatory vaccination,  not vaccine passports. Scotland's vps are for optional leisure activities such as visiting a nightclub.

Yes, although it covers many of the same issues with regards to privacy. There are other documents out there if you care to have a look. Do you really not see that when someone, be it an employer or a concert hall employee, needs to see your vaccine status, that has privacy implications? Not even in terms of data, but directly, person to person?

Or that in terms of ongoing regulation, that this could easily impact other areas besides your vaccine status?

Pretty much all the civil liberties organisations are watching this stuff like a hawk - but they are all no-nothings, I guess? 

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, SlowRiver said:

Yes, although it covers many of the same issues with regards to privacy. There are other documents out there if you care to have a look. Do you really not see that when someone, be it an employer or a concert hall employee, needs to see your vaccine status, that has privacy implications? Not even in terms of data, but directly, person to person?

Or that in terms of ongoing regulation, that this could easily impact other areas besides your vaccine status?

Pretty much all the civil liberties organisations are watching this stuff like a hawk - but they are all no-nothings, I guess? 

I'm really not worried. Proving vaccine status is just not a big deal to me, any more than proving age to buy alcohol.

Eta. Perhaps a better example - in order to work with children I have to agree to have my record checked. In order to protect them, I make information about me available.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Laura Corin

[Matryoshka]

38 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I'm really not worried. Proving vaccine status is just not a big deal to me, any more than proving age to buy alcohol.

Eta. Perhaps a better example - in order to work with children I have to agree to have my record checked. In order to protect them, I make information about me available.

Yeah, seriously.  I think it's a much bigger 'invasion' of privacy to have your criminal record checked than whether you've had a vaccine.  But as with many things, the rights of the individual need to be balanced against the rights of the public to be safe.

[KSera]

52 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Eta. Perhaps a better example - in order to work with children I have to agree to have my record checked. In order to protect them, I make information about me available.

 

12 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Yeah, seriously.  I think it's a much bigger 'invasion' of privacy to have your criminal record checked than whether you've had a vaccine.  But as with many things, the rights of the individual need to be balanced against the rights of the public to be safe.

That's a really good example. I'm in position to need to run background checks on people, and I sometimes feel bad because embarrassing things come up, and they know ahead of time that's going to happen when they want to apply to work with children, but that's necessary for protecting them.

 

I'm still far, far more disturbed that companies are selling the details for what purchases I have made from them to other companies, which holds no benefit to public safety and is far more invasive, than I am about sharing a very pertinent piece of medical information in the midst of a global pandemic. It's not like we're talking about normal times. Did you know data gathering companies are frequently the first ones other than your spouse to know you are pregnant, based on your shopping and online habits? And they will sell that information to other companies? We have FAR bigger fish to fry as regards privacy than requiring vaccine status to be shared before entering non-essential businesses during a panedemic.

[Bootsie]

44 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I'm really not worried. Proving vaccine status is just not a big deal to me, any more than proving age to buy alcohol.

Eta. Perhaps a better example - in order to work with children I have to agree to have my record checked. In order to protect them, I make information about me available.

One major difference to me is that, at least in the US at this point, is the data that is used to prove age to buy alcohol is much different than the data we have about COVID vaccine.  Someone cannot show that they have an arm, get a card on which they can write their name, and birthdate that allows them to buy alcohol; for many reasons that has been the way that people have received a card saying that they have had a vaccine.  

You must make sure you know who is who when you give them a vaccine AND you must have a wau of documenting that in a secure way when vaccination occurs for a "proof of vaccinate" to be worth anything.  Even when drivers license that provide proof of age, there is a high rate of fake IDs.  If people are taking the time, trouble, and risk to carry a false drivers license (which is much more difficult to create than a CDC card) I think it is reasonable to assume they will have no trouble creating a fake CDC card.  We have developed all types of ways to detect the validity of a drivers license--bar codes, holograms, photos.  Until we do the same type of thing for vaccination records, proof of vaccination is not very meaningful.

You can argue that we SHOULD have made sure that we knew who was getting a vaccine and we SHOULD have made sure that was recorded in a more secure manner.  I think there are advantages and disadvantages both ways.  I think we were more concerned about getting as many vaccines administered as quickly as possible to really think through the recording issue.  I also think in certain populations, we wanted as few bouncaries as possible that might keep someone from becoming vaccinated.  But, we are where we are now.  

[Bootsie]

33 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Yeah, seriously.  I think it's a much bigger 'invasion' of privacy to have your criminal record checked than whether you've had a vaccine.  But as with many things, the rights of the individual need to be balanced against the rights of the public to be safe.

How is having your criminal background, which is public record, an invasion of privacy?  Do we want to make vaccination records public record? Do we want to make other medical records public record?  

 

[HSMWB]

On this very board there was a link to an official US government website where there was the electronic file to ‘print your own’  official CDC covid vaccine card.  It has been verified to me multiple times in person and multiple venues that there were stacks of cards available to pick up (or not).  Then we had multiples of people posting their cards ALL OVER social media with lot numbers.  If you want a fake card, it is super easy to get one.  And now where I live health departments are debating making patrons show this to go inside various places.  I’m truly not sure how this is supposed to make the community ‘safer’ when they are SO easy to fake if one is inclined.

And do we even know what is fully vaccinated anymore? One shot, two shots, three shots?? More???

Edited October 3, 2021 by HSMWB
Mostly spelling

[Laura Corin]

I have my vaccine passport. The app cross-referenced between my driving licence, my GP record, my NHS number, my image and my vaccination record.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Laura Corin

[HSMWB]

Wow, in the US we either don’t have those numbers, and/or those systems do not talk to one another.

For example, my state did one of the vaccine lottery’s, and ended up with doing two.  One for people who had received theirs through the Dept of Defense or Veteran’s Affairs, and the other for those who had received it through the testing sites available to anyone. And my state does not include does given through the DoD or VA in their ‘% vaccinated’ data because they are not given it.  Which can be a serious issue in multiple counties that have major military presence. 

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, HSMWB said:

Wow, in the US we either don’t have those numbers, and/or those systems do not talk to one another.

For example, my state did one of the vaccine lottery’s, and ended up with doing two.  One for people who had received theirs through the Dept of Defense or Veteran’s Affairs, and the other for those who had received it through the testing sites available to anyone. And my state does not include does given through the DoD or VA in their ‘% vaccinated’ data because they are not given it.  Which can be a serious issue in multiple counties that have major military presence. 

The only glitch was that the GP record had me as Laura lastname and the driving licence as Laura middle name lastname. The app allowed me to edit the record to align them, as everything else matched.

[regentrude]

On 10/2/2021 at 9:44 AM, SlowRiver said:

Do you really not see that when someone, be it an employer or a concert hall employee, needs to see your vaccine status, that has privacy implications? Not even in terms of data, but directly, person to person?

Or that in terms of ongoing regulation, that this could easily impact other areas besides your vaccine status?

I don't understand why this creates more uproard than the decades old requirement for other vaccinations, and proof thereof. You can't attend school or college without a slew of vaccinations, and proof thereof. That seems to have been no issue - why should Covid be different?

(And let's not forget the large number of vaccinations and medical testing required to obtain a Greencard. Not to enter the country, mind you, just to convert your status.)

[historically accurate]

22 hours ago, HSMWB said:

On this very board there was a link to an official US government website where there was the electronic file to ‘print your own’  official CDC covid vaccine card.  It has been verified to me multiple times in person and multiple venues that there were stacks of cards available to pick up (or not).  Then we had multiples of people posting their cards ALL OVER social media with lot numbers.  If you want a fake card, it is super easy to get one.  And now where I live health departments are debating making patrons show this to go inside various places.  I’m truly not sure how this is supposed to make the community ‘safer’ when they are SO easy to fake if one is inclined.

And do we even know what is fully vaccinated anymore? One shot, two shots, three shots?? More???

This is catastrophizing. "We can't do this because some people won't follow the rules!" Somebody will break every single rule at some point in time. Yes, we can tighten up things, but doing so isn't going to bring the people who are vehemently anti-vax into the fold anyway. In fact, it would probably reek of centralized storage of data to them, and they would fight it just as hard.

The bolded? It's not that difficult. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html It's even on the CDC's page for everybody to read. You can get "extra" shots, but it's not required to be fully vaccinated.

Honestly, this whole post reads like you just don't want them and are throwing out "But Whattabouts???" like my teens do when they don't want to do something. I'd like to think the USA is better than just throwing up their collective hands and saying, "Oh, well, what can ya do?" and moving on. I'm beginning to suspect I was overly optimistic with that thought.  

 

Edit: I'm feeling a little cranky about this topic today as I feel like I am being held hostage by an antivax/antimask co-worker. I have like 0 extra transactions I can do since she refuses to mask in our shared (!) office. It bites. And the only response from everyone seems to be that if I don't want covid, I should be the one to hunker down in my house (as should my kiddos and DH) since you know, they need to live their lives as though covid didn't exist.

Edited October 3, 2021 by historically accurate
spelling is hard

[Bootsie]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

I don't understand why this creates more uproard than the decades old requirement for other vaccinations, and proof thereof. You can't attend school or college without a slew of vaccinations, and proof thereof. That seems to have been no issue - why should Covid be different?

(And let's not forget the large number of vaccinations and medical testing required to obtain a Greencard. Not to enter the country, mind you, just to convert your status.)

To me there is a big difference between a student providing vaccine records to a school or university that then maintains those records as medical records and people flashing a paper card at the entrance of sporting events, cultural events, and other activities.  The vaccination records a student provides to a school are only accessible by a few, specific people and only in limited situations.  Also, thought has been placed into how to keep those records safe.

Although I have been teaching for decades, I have never known the vaccination status of a particular student, even when I was directing a study abroad program and assigning roommates.  

[Bootsie]

6 hours ago, historically accurate said:

This is catastrophizing. "We can't do this because some people won't follow the rules!" Somebody will break every single rule at some point in time. Yes, we can tighten up things, but doing so isn't going to bring the people who are vehemently anti-vax into the fold anyway. In fact, it would probably reek of centralized storage of data to them, and they would fight it just as hard.

The bolded? It's not that difficult. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html It's even on the CDC's page for everybody to read. You can get "extra" shots, but it's not required to be fully vaccinated.

Honestly, this whole post reads like you just don't want them and are throwing out "But Whattabouts???" like my teens do when they don't want to do something. I'd like to think the USA is better than just throwing up their collective hands and saying, "Oh, well, what can ya do?" and moving on. I'm beginning to suspect I was overly optimistic with that thought.  

 

Edit: I'm feeling a little cranky about this topic today as I feel like I am being held hostage by an antivax/antimask co-worker. I have like 0 extra transactions I can do since she refuses to mask in our shared (!) office. It bites. And the only response from everyone seems to be that if I don't want covid, I should be the one to hunker down in my house (as should my kiddos and DH) since you know, they need to live their lives as though covid didn't exist.

I do not agree that the poster is catastrophizing.  To me, the point is not that we shouldn't do something because someone will break the rules.  The point is that the I do not feel confident when someone shows me a paper card with some non-standardized information on it that it is proof that they have been vaccinated.  Would we be comfortable beginning to let people purchase alcohol if they showed one of theses cards, and the birthdate written on it would mean they were over 21?  Or, would we be comfortable with handwritten cards with a name, birthdate, and "pass" written on it with three initials by it to show that someone is eligible to drive.  My concern is that this provides a false sense of security that people around them are vaccinated.  

[Laura Corin]

6 hours ago, Bootsie said:

To me there is a big difference between a student providing vaccine records to a school or university that then maintains those records as medical records and people flashing a paper card at the entrance of sporting events, cultural events, and other activities.  The vaccination records a student provides to a school are only accessible by a few, specific people and only in limited situations.  Also, thought has been placed into how to keep those records safe.

Although I have been teaching for decades, I have never known the vaccination status of a particular student, even when I was directing a study abroad program and assigning roommates.  

I'm not sure how it works in the systems that employ  you, but doesn’t the presence of the student prove vaccination status or medical exemption indiscriminately to everyone in the class? Just as presence in a nightclub does in Scotland? 

[LMD]

On 10/2/2021 at 7:42 AM, Laura Corin said:

Your link is regarding mandatory vaccination,  not vaccine passports. Scotland's vps are for optional leisure activities such as visiting a nightclub.

I'm curious, would you see more validity in some concerns if a passport was paired with a mandate? And if the passport was required for employment?

I'm just trying to sort out my feelings on where is an appropriate line, and where is an overstep. cards on the table, a covid vaccine passport at this stage feels like an overstep to me.

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, LMD said:

I'm curious, would you see more validity in some concerns if a passport was paired with a mandate? And if the passport was required for employment?

I'm just trying to sort out my feelings on where is an appropriate line, and where is an overstep. cards on the table, a covid vaccine passport at this stage feels like an overstep to me.

I think that mandatory vaccination for particular roles (nursing, for example) is reasonable.  I'm not sure where my line is with regard to wider mandatory vaccination.  It's often counterproductive on a societal level:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-50713991

I am completely happy with the idea of vaccine passports for non-essential purposes (nightclubs, restaurants, etc).

 

[LMD]

thanks for your reply Laura

[Dmmetler]

11 hours ago, Bootsie said:

To me there is a big difference between a student providing vaccine records to a school or university that then maintains those records as medical records and people flashing a paper card at the entrance of sporting events, cultural events, and other activities.  The vaccination records a student provides to a school are only accessible by a few, specific people and only in limited situations.  Also, thought has been placed into how to keep those records safe.

Although I have been teaching for decades, I have never known the vaccination status of a particular student, even when I was directing a study abroad program and assigning roommates.  

For colleges with school-wide mandates for vaccination/testing, you don't have to show proof of vaccine for college events if you are a current student/faculty  because your ID shows that you are either vaccinated or have an excemption and are being tested regularly. At least at my kid's school that also applies to students from other regional schools which also have a vaccine mandate. The only time showing additional proof comes into play is if you haven't already been verified. 

 

 

 

[KSera]

12 hours ago, Bootsie said:

To me there is a big difference between a student providing vaccine records to a school or university that then maintains those records as medical records and people flashing a paper card at the entrance of sporting events, cultural events, and other activities.  The vaccination records a student provides to a school are only accessible by a few, specific people and only in limited situations.  Also, thought has been placed into how to keep those records safe.

That’s part of the whole benefit of a passport system—no flashing of cards to people that give specifics of how that person qualifies for entry. I think a card should still be allowed unless/ until we have a more vetted form of proof (which may not happen at this point), but making an electronic passport available to people gives them greater privacy and allows more flexibility in who qualifies as safe for entry. 

[MEmama]

11 minutes ago, KSera said:

That’s part of the whole benefit of a passport system—no flashing of cards to people that give specifics of how that person qualifies for entry. I think a card should still be allowed unless/ until we have a more vetted form of proof (which may not happen at this point), but making an electronic passport available to people gives them greater privacy and allows more flexibility in who qualifies as safe for entry. 

I wonder if the same people who profess to be so concerned about flashing a QR code on their phone to go inside a restaurant during a pandemic are equally as concerned showing their drivers license whenever they buy beer or their passport to fly. Because the host at the restaurant only sees squiggly lines whereas the creepy guy at the liquor store has full access not just to your age, but your address as well. And goodness knows what sort of info the TSA agent is privy to.

Conversely, would these same privacy concerned folks be concerned if we *stopped* verifying information for similarly voluntary choices? Do they find it a violation to vet the child care worker or church volunteer to help ensure they aren’t pedophiles? 
 

Honestly, the privacy concern is totally moot when the discussion is literally happening over the internet on social media. Lol. We’ve thrown any illusion out the window a loooong time ago. For that matter, do they honestly think for a moment that the government can’t find them if they wanted to? We are all in plenty of databases (IRS anyone?). But whatever boogeyman they are worried about (and they exist, I’m in agreement there) simply isn’t a concern because of the idea of being asked to show proof of Covid vaccination.
 

 

[Dmmetler]

12 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I wonder if the same people who profess to be so concerned about flashing a QR code on their phone to go inside a restaurant during a pandemic are equally as concerned showing their drivers license whenever they buy beer or their passport to fly. Because the host at the restaurant only sees squiggly lines whereas the creepy guy at the liquor store has full access not just to your age, but your address as well. And goodness knows what sort of info the TSA agent is privy to.

Conversely, would these same privacy concerned folks be concerned if we *stopped* verifying information for similarly voluntary choices? Do they find it a violation to vet the child care worker or church volunteer to help ensure they aren’t pedophiles? 
 

Honestly, the privacy concern is totally moot when the discussion is literally happening over the internet on social media. Lol. We’ve thrown any illusion out the window a loooong time ago. For that matter, do they honestly think for a moment that the government can’t find them if they wanted to? We are all in plenty of databases (IRS anyone?). But whatever boogeyman they are worried about (and they exist, I’m in agreement there) simply isn’t a concern because of the idea of being asked to show proof of Covid vaccination.
 

 

Even the official card gives much less information than my driver's license. 

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

That’s part of the whole benefit of a passport system—no flashing of cards to people that give specifics of how that person qualifies for entry. I think a card should still be allowed unless/ until we have a more vetted form of proof (which may not happen at this point), but making an electronic passport available to people gives them greater privacy and allows more flexibility in who qualifies as safe for entry. 

I agree that an electronic passport system could provide for more privacy and flexibility.  However, simply takin the paper cards that were not created in a secure, standardized way and simply digitizing them (which is what is primarily happening in the US when people talk about a vaccine passport) provides no more safety than the paper cards.  We can't go back and create the data and security that should have been created when giving vaccines in the US if we wanted meaningful vaccine passports.  Whether we should or should not have done that is a separate philosophical question, 

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

I agree that an electronic passport system could provide for more privacy and flexibility.  However, simply takin the paper cards that were not created in a secure, standardized way and simply digitizing them (which is what is primarily happening in the US when people talk about a vaccine passport) provides no more safety than the paper cards.  We can't go back and create the data and security that should have been created when giving vaccines in the US if we wanted meaningful vaccine passports.  Whether we should or should not have done that is a separate philosophical question, 

Why do you assume verification based on paper cards is what people are talking about here?  Samsung and I think Apple and a few other companies have already created electronic vaccine verification apps that include a check with your medical records to make sure your vaccination happened.  We have the technology.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/proof-vaccination-tap-smartphone-developers-want-make-easy-rcna1689