England or The UK? North American usage

[Laura Corin]

One of my favourite podcasts, Americast from the BBC, was musing on the use of 'England' as a synonym for 'The UK'.  ETA: they had just had a highly educated and politically savvy guest on who used them synonymously, so they were curious about where that comes from. 

Could you help me with a little poll please?  All answers to the poll are anonymous and I won't pass on the ID of any comments.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Laura Corin

[wendyroo]

My usage is a bit more nuanced than the poll options. I definitely know that England is a part of the UK. Even my kids grasp that - they have one geography flash card for England and another for the UK and can correctly identify each (along with cards for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland). They also know that Great Britain is similar but not the same as the UK, though neither they nor I could explain the difference.

However, I do think I tend to use “England” as a shorthand when discussing issues that I vaguely associate with England itself, but which likely also hold true in other areas in the UK. The opposite goes for the adjective “British” which is normally what I use to mean “of England” (I think I avoid using English to mean “of England” because of the confusion with English the language which is a far more common usage here ).

A few days ago my son used the word “tenner” in his writing (as slang for a ten dollar bill). I assume he came across it in Murderous Maths or something, because it is not a usage he would hear or read locally. I mentioned to him that the word might be confusing to a local audience because it is mostly used “in England”. Did I actually mean “in the UK”? I don’t know. I would be just as likely to describe tenner as British.

I have sooooooo much more exposure to England (through TV shows, book settings, movies, history books), that I have a much foggier picture of culture in the other UK countries.

[almondbutterandjelly]

I use them synonymously.  I guess you are saying that England is like a state or something of the UK?  But throughout history, wasn't it always England?  Or Great Britain?  Yeah, I don't know.  I live in Texas.  

[Carrie12345]

I use the word “British” way more often than the word “England”, not that I use either all THAT frequently.  But I agree that British is fuzzier to me than England is.

[HS Mom in NC]

I consume a lot of British culture (British literature; British fiction; BBC; historical fiction set in UK; different You Tube volggers; one from England, one from Scotland) so I don't use the terms England and UK interchangeably.

In my personal experience, people using them interchangeably are older than GenX and/or from smaller towns.

I'm one of those Americans careful about using the term "America" depending on the context and my audience. I'm more likely to use "the US" rather than "America" because I have a lot experience around subcultures who will remind the users of "America" or "American" that there are many different countries and people groups in The Americas. So I guess it goes both ways, but I'd say many people outside the US are usually unaware of that, as are some people from the US.

[Laura Corin]

25 minutes ago, perky said:

I use them synonymously.  I guess you are saying that England is like a state or something of the UK?  But throughout history, wasn't it always England?  Or Great Britain?  Yeah, I don't know.  I live in Texas.  

You could think of it this way:

Imagine that the United States of America was made up of only four states: California, Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico.  The majority of the population would be in California, but 'California' as a shorthand designation would not include the other people.  And someone in Arizona might be less-than-happy to be called 'Californian'.  So the UK is made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.  The UK is everyone.  England is just England. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Laura Corin

[sassenach]

OK, but what is Great Britain? When is something British vs English?

[Kimberly in IN]

While I do not use England and UK interchangeably (or do the kids and dh) I hear it often both in media and in person quite a bit. If we hear it often in a short time span, it becomes a topic of conversation at our house --- why do people use it interchangeably, how do they not know it is not the same, etc. 

[Laura Corin]

23 minutes ago, sassenach said:

OK, but what is Great Britain? When is something British vs English?

Great Britain is the 'mainland' of the UK.  So it includes the nations that are based on the main island: England, Scotland and Wales plus their associated small islands, for example Shetland and Orkney.

The full name of the country is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Edited December 1, 2020 by Laura Corin

[Laura Corin]

31 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I consume a lot of British culture (British literature; British fiction; BBC; historical fiction set in UK; different You Tube volggers; one from England, one from Scotland) so I don't use the terms England and UK interchangeably.

In my personal experience, people using them interchangeably are older than GenX and/or from smaller towns.

I'm one of those Americans careful about using the term "America" depending on the context and my audience. I'm more likely to use "the US" rather than "America" because I have a lot experience around subcultures who will remind the users of "America" or "American" that there are many different countries and people groups in The Americas. So I guess it goes both ways, but I'd say many people outside the US are usually unaware of that, as are some people from the US.

Yes.  I tend to say US or (in this case) North America.  But I don't think most Brits would be aware of the nuances.

[purpleowl]

1 minute ago, Laura Corin said:

Great Britain is the 'mainland' of the UK.  So it includes the nations that are based on the main island: England, Scotland and Wales plus their attached small islands, for example Shetland and Orkney.

The full name of the country is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

This thread is giving me flashbacks to hosting Geography Bee every year when I was a classroom teacher. In the directions I had to read aloud, it talked about acceptable synonyms and I had to say "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" like three times. 😄 England was not an acceptable synonym "because England is a political division."

I did just realize that I have always said/heard "Queen of England" but is it actually more correct to say she's Queen of the United Kingdom?

[Laura Corin]

Just now, purpleowl said:

This thread is giving me flashbacks to hosting Geography Bee every year when I was a classroom teacher. In the directions I had to read aloud, it talked about acceptable synonyms and I had to say "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" like three times. 😄 England was not an acceptable synonym "because England is a political division."

I did just realize that I have always said/heard "Queen of England" but is it actually more correct to say she's Queen of the United Kingdom?

She's the queen of lots of places.  Her title is, I think, Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

[wendyroo]

Thinking about it more, I think that though I pretty clearly understand the difference between England and the UK (and Great Britain to a lesser extent), I under- and over- generalize with my word choices due to lack of information.

So, as I mentioned in my last comment, I will say something cultural (ie universal health care) happens "in England" just because I have far less information about the rest of the UK. I have very little understanding about how much cultural and governmental crossover there is between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Do they all have the same postal system? The same health plan? The same homeschool laws? The same grocery chains?

As an American, my mental model is a country made up of constituent states, but this is not particularly helpful when thinking about the UK model of a "country"(?) made up of constituent countries.

OTOH, I have realized that on a global scale I almost always think of "the UK". If I hear a news report talking about trade with England, I will always class that as UK trade in my head...I don't know, does the US trade individually with the constituent countries or only with the UK as a whole? I would always refer to the UK as joining climate accords and the like...again, I don't know if that is accurate or if there are instances where just one of the constituent countries would join. I would think of UK athletes competing at the Olympics; is that how it works? I don't have a clue.

[Laura Corin]

3 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

Thinking about it more, I think that though I pretty clearly understand the difference between England and the UK (and Great Britain to a lesser extent), I under- and over- generalize with my word choices due to lack of information.

So, as I mentioned in my last comment, I will say something cultural (ie universal health care) happens "in England" just because I have far less information about the rest of the UK. I have very little understanding about how much cultural and governmental crossover there is between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Do they all have the same postal system? The same health plan? The same homeschool laws? The same grocery chains?

As an American, my mental model is a country made up of constituent states, but this is not particularly helpful when thinking about the UK model of a "country"(?) made up of constituent countries.

OTOH, I have realized that on a global scale I almost always think of "the UK". If I hear a news report talking about trade with England, I will always class that as UK trade in my head...I don't know, does the US trade individually with the constituent countries or only with the UK as a whole? I would always refer to the UK as joining climate accords and the like...again, I don't know if that is accurate or if there are instances where just one of the constituent countries would join. I would think of UK athletes competing at the Olympics; is that how it works? I don't have a clue.

It's actually more complicated than it used to be because there is now devolution - the handing back of some powers from the UK government to the nations.  Armed forces and trade deals are UK-wide, as is the Royal Mail. 

Other things are similar but not always exactly the same: tax system, NHS, education, etc.  Scotland has always had a separate legal and educational system (including for home education) because it was joined with England relatively recently - roughly over the length of the Seventeenth Century.  Most grocery stores cover the whole of the UK, but some are more regional: Waitrose is barely in Scotland, whereas Morrisons isn't strong in souther England.

Olympics participation is under the moniker Team GB but includes Northern Irish athletes (although they could opt to represent Eire in most cases, if they wished).  So that's confusing: Britain, but including Northern Ireland.  I don't understand that one.

So long as you don't refer to Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish people as English, you'll get forgiven any other confusion.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I consume a lot of British culture (British literature; British fiction; BBC; historical fiction set in UK; different You Tube volggers; one from England, one from Scotland) so I don't use the terms England and UK interchangeably.

In my personal experience, people using them interchangeably are older than GenX and/or from smaller towns.

I'm one of those Americans careful about using the term "America" depending on the context and my audience. I'm more likely to use "the US" rather than "America" because I have a lot experience around subcultures who will remind the users of "America" or "American" that there are many different countries and people groups in The Americas. So I guess it goes both ways, but I'd say many people outside the US are usually unaware of that, as are some people from the US.

I read UK papers - and I read comments.  There are probably just as many over there that use "America" interchangeably with US.  Sure makes Canadians happy (not) when the story is about Canada and Europeans don't know they're a different country.

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

I read UK papers - and I read comments.  There are probably just as many over there that use "America" interchangeably with US.  Sure makes Canadians happy (not) when the story is about Canada and Europeans don't know they're a different country.

For me the difference is that people from the USA use 'America' to refer to their own country.  You would never hear a Scot referring to their own country as 'England'.

Of course, if Brits use 'America' as opposed to 'North America' to refer to Canada, that's plain wrong. ETA or right, if you think of it as helping Canada to regain the continental name!

Edited December 1, 2020 by Laura Corin

[wendyroo]

1 minute ago, Laura Corin said:

For me the difference is that people from the USA use 'America' to refer to their own country.  You would never hear a Scot referring to their own country as 'England'.

Yes, I was born and have always lived in the US, and I use United States and America more or less interchangeably. 

In my usage there is a difference between "America" (synonymous with the United States) and "the Americas" (North, Central and South).

[HS Mom in NC]

Most people from the US have probably heared the term "British" or "Britain" far more than "The UK." 

British Literature is the class we took that assigned our favorite Jane Austen novels.
The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) brings us our favorite shows from the UK. 
Many of us have heard the term "British Isles" and "Brit" all our lives.
The Great British Baking show has been very popular here.
BritBox is now a way to mainline BBC shows.

Also, "Kingdom" is a term we don't often use and only hear when reading ancient texts (like the Bible) and fairy tales.
 

[HS Mom in NC]

18 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I read UK papers - and I read comments.  There are probably just as many over there that use "America" interchangeably with US.  Sure makes Canadians happy (not) when the story is about Canada and Europeans don't know they're a different country.

Hee heee hee.  Yeah, I can imagine Canadians not being thrilled about that. I wonder how many Canadians know some Americans jokingly and affectionately refer to Canada as, "The 51st state" in reference to our similarities?  Sometimes Americans doing that are oblivious to the differences and the strong feelings those differences bring out on both sides.

[gardenmom5]

Just now, Laura Corin said:

For me the difference is that people from the USA use 'America' to refer to their own country.  You would never hear a Scot referring to their own country as 'England'.

Considering England and Scotland are different countries - I would never expect a Scot to refer to themselves as English.  Would a Scot refer to themselves as a Brit?  They are part of Great Britain.  

 However, The official name of our country is The United States of America.  So - referring to ourselves as American is merely shortening the name of our country.  Just as the official name of Mexico (the other member of the "big three" North American countries)  is Estados Unidos Mexicanos  - but is often shortened to Mexico.

It's not just Brits who make the error,  (though the flood of snide comments from Brits when there's been a destructive tornado are really quite tiresome. . . . only someone who is uneducated would make them.    We have eleven states with more land area than GB. (Tornado alley itself is more than five times larger than GB, which those commenters also don't comprehend.  They really have no clue about how a tornado works, and think the puny F2's that UK rarely gets are equivalent to the F5's that tornado alley can get.  Not. even. close.)

For those interested in some of the more lighthearted differences - I'd recommend the Youtube Channel "Lost in the Pond".    He's from England, and has been living in the US for eleven years.  Does a good job of going into the differences, from geographic, to cultural of the UK and US.

[importswim]

I'm originally from Yorkshire but emigrated to the states with my family when I was 10 (they have since moved back). I can't tell you how many times people introduce me as being from London. 😂 I have relatively well educated middle class friends and you wouldn't expect them to make that mistake but they do. Apparently Britain means England and being from England (or British) means you're from London. 🤷‍♀️

[gardenmom5]

10 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Hee heee hee.  Yeah, I can imagine Canadians not being thrilled about that. I wonder how many Canadians know some Americans jokingly and affectionately refer to Canada as, "The 51st state" in reference to our similarities?  Sometimes Americans doing that are oblivious to the differences and the strong feelings those differences bring out on both sides.

Well, most Canadians live close to the border. But that's about climate.   I've personally never known anyone who refers to Canada as the '51st" state.   I do have a Canadian friend (lives in the US, married to an American) who once quipped "you Americans all look alike."

After visiting with a Canadian couple (in Canada), I was surprised how often they'd come down here (two and a half hours south of the border) for day-trip "dates" while they were dating.  I wouldn't think the lines at the border would be worth it.   (Yes - I've done day trips to BC. rarely.)

[HS Mom in NC]

6 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

For those interested in some of the more lighthearted differences - I'd recommend the Youtube Channel "Lost in the Pond".    He's from England, and has been living in the US for eleven years.  Does a good job of going into the differences, from geographic, to cultural of the UK and US.

I subscribe to his channel too. And I like Shaun from Scotland.

[Matryoshka]

2 hours ago, perky said:

I use them synonymously.  I guess you are saying that England is like a state or something of the UK?  But throughout history, wasn't it always England?  Or Great Britain?  Yeah, I don't know.  I live in Texas.  

Yes.  It's like calling the US 'Texas'.  (Or The Netherlands 'Holland', for that matter...) Possibly not insulting to Texans, but the rest of the country might take issue....

[gardenmom5]

9 minutes ago, importswim said:

I'm originally from Yorkshire but emigrated to the states with my family when I was 10 (they have since moved back). I can't tell you how many times people introduce me as being from London. 😂 I have relatively well educated middle class friends and you wouldn't expect them to make that mistake but they do. Apparently Britain means England and being from England (or British) means you're from London. 🤷‍♀️

I don't consider my "within England" geography to be very good - but even I would be raising eyebrows at that one.

[HS Mom in NC]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

Well, most Canadians live close to the border. But that's about climate.   I've personally never known anyone who refers to Canada as the '51st" state.   I do have a Canadian friend (lives in the US, married to an American) who once quipped "you Americans all look alike."

After visiting with a Canadian couple (in Canada), I was surprised how often they'd come down here (two and a half hours south of the border) for day-trip "dates" while they were dating.  I wouldn't think the lines at the border would be worth it.   (Yes - I've done day trips to BC. rarely.)

In AZ we have large numbers of snowbird Canadians with winter homes there.  My quilter's guild there triples in size in the winter with snowbirds from Canada, the Midwest, and New England. I suspect if you're around Canadians seasonally and not near the US/Canadian border, you're more likely to hear Canada referred to as the 51st state, because Americans away from the border are probably more likely to notice similarities, especially in an immigrant rich environments with immigrants from very different cultures like in AZ.  We have relatively high numbers of immigrants from all over The Americas and Asia.

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I'm one of those Americans careful about using the term "America" depending on the context and my audience. I'm more likely to use "the US" rather than "America" because I have a lot experience around subcultures who will remind the users of "America" or "American" that there are many different countries and people groups in The Americas. So I guess it goes both ways, but I'd say many people outside the US are usually unaware of that, as are some people from the US.

It's really only touchy among the Latin American population.  They hate it when we do that.  In Spanish I say I'm 'norteamericana' or 'estadounidense'.  Never say 'soy americana' in Spanish.

But in daily use in American English, "America" means the USA.  If you're referring to the continental mass, you'd specify north, south, central, or "the Americas" for the whole thing.  I wouldn't say I'm "North American" in English, because that includes Canada.  And technically, all of Central America.  In English, that actually sounds less specific rather than more specific.

The real problem is we named ourselves stupid.  Mexico is actually called "The United States of Mexico", but they can shorthand to the what comes after the "of" because they actually gave themselves a unique name rather than making themselves the subset of a whole continent.  Estadounidense sounds fine in Spanish, but United Statsian is never going to catch on in English.  And, yeah, then the United States of what? And probably renaming ourselves now is a bit late.  

[gardenmom5]

7 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

In AZ we have large numbers of snowbird Canadians with winter homes there.  My quilter's guild there triples in size in the winter with snowbirds from Canada, the Midwest, and New England. I suspect if you're around Canadians seasonally and not near the US/Canadian border, you're more likely to hear Canada referred to as the 51st state, because Americans away from the border are probably more likely to notice similarities, especially in an immigrant rich environments with immigrants from very different cultures like in AZ.  We have relatively high numbers of immigrants from all over The Americas and Asia.

If they're seeing Canadians in the US - they might see similarities, but they're missing the differences.

[gardenmom5]

11 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

It's really only touchy among the Latin American population.  They hate it when we do that.  In Spanish I say I'm 'norteamericana' or 'estadounidense'.  Never say 'soy americana' in Spanish.

But in daily use in American English, "America" means the USA.  If you're referring to the continental mass, you'd specify north, south, central, or "the Americas" for the whole thing.  I wouldn't say I'm "North American" in English, because that includes Canada.  And technically, all of Central America.  In English, that actually sounds less specific rather than more specific.

The real problem is we named ourselves stupid.  Mexico is actually called "The United States of Mexico", but they can shorthand to the what comes after the "of" because they actually gave themselves a unique name rather than making themselves the subset of a whole continent.  Estadounidense sounds fine in Spanish, but United Statsian is never going to catch on in English.  And, yeah, then the United States of what? And probably renaming ourselves now is a bit late.  

It also includes Mexico (and technically - Central America  is part of the North American Continent.)

Go back to when  North America was being settled. - It was called America in the 17th century.

[Matryoshka]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

It also includes Mexico (and technically - Central America  is part of the North American Continent.)

LOL, yes, I said exactly that in the sentence after the one you bolded. 😄

[HS Mom in NC]

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

It's really only touchy among the Latin American population.  They hate it when we do that.  In Spanish I say I'm 'norteamericana' or 'estadounidense'.  Never say 'soy americana' in Spanish.

But in daily use in American English, "America" means the USA. 

For many parts of the US that's true. The US is HUGE and full of many different subcultures and subculture influences.   If you live in a part of the US with a high Latino populations and immigrant Latino populations, (Latinos are diverse bunch) and you interact with them, odds are you're probably more sensitive to it and have to make a decision about how to use the term.

Many places are seeing sharp increases in Latinos recently, like here in the greater Raleigh, NC area. Near my house in a few areas the Latino population is about 33%.  A friend from church (parents are Argentinian immigrants and she's married to a Guatemalan immigrant) comment on how odd it is to have such a high Latino population, but no Chicano culture.  She's used to Chicano culture being already established (she lived in CA) and the primary influence in an area, but that will only be true here with younger generations. So this particular issue probably isn't on the radar of the white locals who aren't transplants from the southwest, but odds are it will be something they hear about with more frequency in the not too distant future.

[almondbutterandjelly]

I know I could google this, but since we're discussing it... so is England a country?  And Scotland is a different country?  And Wales is a different country?  And then they are all part of a Kingdom?

Follow up question about "English":  I thought it was "Kings and Queens of England."  So is the queen only queen of England and not the UK?  That doesn't seem right.  At some point in the past, was the whole of the British Isle called England?

[Matryoshka]

4 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

For many parts of the US that's true. The US is HUGE and full of many different subcultures and subculture influences.   If you live in a part of the US with a high Latino populations and immigrant Latino populations, (Latinos are diverse bunch) and you interact with them, odds are you're probably more sensitive to it and have to make a decision about how to use the term.

Many places are seeing sharp increases in Latinos recently, like here in the greater Raleigh, NC area. Near my house in a few areas the Latino population is about 33%.  A friend from church (parents are Argentinian immigrants and she's married to a Guatemalan immigrant) comment on how odd it is to have such a high Latino population, but no Chicano culture.  She's used to Chicano culture being already established (she lived in CA) and the primary influence in an area, but that will only be true here with younger generations. So this particular issue probably isn't on the radar of the white locals who aren't transplants from the southwest, but odds are it will be something they hear about with more frequency in the not too distant future.

I'll agree with that.  

It's just really hard to come up with a name for our country in English that isn't a tonguetwister other than "America"!  What do you use?  North American (which yeah, includes all of Central America and Canada, so doesn't seem less 'insulting'), or United Statsian, or ...?

For the country itself, United States or 'the US' works, but the denizens therof?  Who are we, LOL?

[Matryoshka]

7 minutes ago, perky said:

I know I could google this, but since we're discussing it... so is England a country?  And Scotland is a different country?  And Wales is a different country?  And then they are all part of a Kingdom?

Follow up question about "English":  I thought it was "Kings and Queens of England."  So is the queen only queen of England and not the UK?  That doesn't seem right.  At some point in the past, was the whole of the British Isle called England?

No.  The name for the island as a whole is Great Britain, which includes Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall (and anything else? - I get confused if Yorkshire is a different thing?  Anything else I'm missing?)  LOL, more informed than most Americans, but still falling short...   But England (The Land of the Angles) has never included the Celtic lands the Angles and Saxons never managed to conquer.  

And I think technically the Island upon which Ireland and Northern Ireland sit is ... is it Lesser Britain?  At any rate, it's the two islands together that are The British Isles, and the "Great" refers to "the bigger one" - not that it's awesomer... LOL.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Matryoshka

[importswim]

2 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Yes.  It's like calling the US 'Texas'.  (Or The Netherlands 'Holland', for that matter...) Possibly not insulting to Texans, but the rest of the country might take issue....

Well to be fair, before I moved to the States I thought there were only 4: New York, Texas, California, and Florida. LOL! I was 10 but still....

[importswim]

10 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

No.  The name for the island as a whole is Great Britain, which includes Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall (and anything else? - I get confused if Yorkshire is a different thing?  Anything else I'm missing?)  LOL, more informed than most Americans, but still falling short...   But England (The Land of the Angles) has never included the Celtic lands the Angles and Saxons never managed to conquer.  

And I think technically the Island upon which Ireland and Northern Ireland sit is ... is it Lesser Britain?  At any rate, it's the two islands together that are The British Isles, and the "Great" refers to "the bigger one" - not that it's awesomer... LOL.

Yorkshire is a county in the North-ish part of England and culturally is very different from London and the South. ☺️

[EmilyGF]

I do not use "England" much because I'm rarely referring to that part of the UK. I also don't say "Holland."

But, my dad lived in the UK as a teen, our best friends live in The Netherlands, and I can be a bit pedantic.

Emily

[HS Mom in NC]

43 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I'll agree with that.  

It's just really hard to come up with a name for our country in English that isn't a tonguetwister other than "America"!  What do you use?  North American (which yeah, includes all of Central America and Canada, so doesn't seem less 'insulting'), or United Statsian, or ...?

For the country itself, United States or 'the US' works, but the denizens therof?  Who are we, LOL?

Yep, it's awkward and cumbersome to say, "People in the US." We don't have an equivalent to Brits that doesn't irritate significant portions of multiple continents. I say that not knowing how well received the term Brits is to people labeled with it-maybe some of them don't like it.

[Corraleno]

I definitely don't use them interchangeably and I almost always use U.K., although I also use British as an adjective — e.g. I would say that my ex-husband is British and that he has dual US/UK citizenship. The only time I can think of that I use England is if someone specifically asks where DS was born, in which case I would say "Cambridge, England," to distinguish it from Cambridge, MA. But if I were just mentioning it in passing I'd say "DS was born in the UK" or "when we lived in the UK" or "my inlaws live in the UK" or whatever. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, perky said:

I know I could google this, but since we're discussing it... so is England a country?  And Scotland is a different country?  And Wales is a different country?  And then they are all part of a Kingdom?

Follow up question about "English":  I thought it was "Kings and Queens of England."  So is the queen only queen of England and not the UK?  That doesn't seem right.  At some point in the past, was the whole of the British Isle called England?

England, Wales, and Scotland have always been different countries.  England and Scotland were united when Queen Elizabeth died, and James IV of Scotland inherited the English throne, through his mother, Mary, Queen of Scots.

Even at the Norman Conquest of England in 1066 - Scotland and Wales were different countries.

[gardenmom5]

55 minutes ago, importswim said:

Well to be fair, before I moved to the States I thought there were only 4: New York, Texas, California, and Florida. LOL! I was 10 but still....

There are many New Englanders (where everything is crammed together) who would say they'd just drive down to -__ for a quick visit.  That engenders a snicker.   But then, the county I live in is bigger than the state of Rhode Island, and only slightly smaller than Delaware.

[rebcoola]

I use England a lot but I am actually referring to England not the UK.  I don't use British much.  I don't think it helps Americans that the Queen is so often called Queen of England by media.

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

No.  The name for the island as a whole is Great Britain, which includes Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall (and anything else? - I get confused if Yorkshire is a different thing?  Anything else I'm missing?)  LOL, more informed than most Americans, but still falling short...   But England (The Land of the Angles) has never included the Celtic lands the Angles and Saxons never managed to conquer.  

And I think technically the Island upon which Ireland and Northern Ireland sit is ... is it Lesser Britain?  At any rate, it's the two islands together that are The British Isles, and the "Great" refers to "the bigger one" - not that it's awesomer... LOL.

Great Britain includes England, Scotland and Wales. Cornwall is currently a county of England but with a distinct character and an ancient language. Yorkshire is also a county of England. 

The island of Ireland comprises Eire and Northern Ireland.  Lesser Britain was Brittany, currently in France.

The British Isles is a term that is no longer used much, because it encompasses another sovereign country, Eire. 

[Lady Florida.]

My usage changed over the years. I used to use England as a catch-all word even though I knew England was just a country in what everyone - or at least Americans - then called Great Britain. At some point I started trying to be more "correct" and said Great Britain or just Britain. I don't know when I started saying UK or The UK but it was only within the last 10-ish years. I use British to describe both people from the UK and things that are, well, British, such as tv shows, food, the monarchy, etc.

[KungFuPanda]

4 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

It's really only touchy among the Latin American population.  They hate it when we do that.  In Spanish I say I'm 'norteamericana' or 'estadounidense'.  Never say 'soy americana' in Spanish.

But in daily use in American English, "America" means the USA.  If you're referring to the continental mass, you'd specify north, south, central, or "the Americas" for the whole thing.  I wouldn't say I'm "North American" in English, because that includes Canada.  And technically, all of Central America.  In English, that actually sounds less specific rather than more specific.

The real problem is we named ourselves stupid.  Mexico is actually called "The United States of Mexico", but they can shorthand to the what comes after the "of" because they actually gave themselves a unique name rather than making themselves the subset of a whole continent.  Estadounidense sounds fine in Spanish, but United Statsian is never going to catch on in English.  And, yeah, then the United States of what? And probably renaming ourselves now is a bit late.  

Even if we all made a pact to stop referring to ourselves as Americans, there are too many other countries who would go right on calling us that.  It's like when your kid hits middle school and starts using a nickname.  They never do successfully retrain their family to call them that.  "Sorry, Steve, your family is going to call you Steven until they all die out." Besides, you can't call all Asians "Chino" then turn around and get annoyed that the United States-i-ans are going with "American.' I get that vocabulary does shift eventually, but I'm guessing this will happen sometime after we manage to switch to the metric system.

As for the original topic, didn't we all learn the puppy dog rhyme in geography?

Edited December 1, 2020 by KungFuPanda

[Ellie]

6 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

So long as you don't refer to Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish people as English, you'll get forgiven any other confusion.

But are they not British?

My Scottish friend used to say that she was British; and there was a skit with David Tennison and Catherine Tate's Lauren Cooper character, where he specifies that he is Scottish not English but he is also British. Now I have to include the link because it's so awesome, lol.

 

[Laura Corin]

7 minutes ago, Ellie said:

But are they not British?

My Scottish friend used to say that she was British; and there was a skit with David Tennison and Catherine Tate's Lauren Cooper character, where he specifies that he is Scottish not English but he is also British. Now I have to include the link because it's so awesome, lol.

 

Absolutely they are legally British. Just not English.  My husband is both Texan and American.  He's not Californian though.

Some Scots,  Welsh,  Northern Irish and English people prefer to be referred to by their individual nation name.  But we all have the same passport.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Laura Corin

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

Even if we all made a pact to stop referring to ourselves as Americans, there are too many other countries who would go right on calling us that.  It's like when your kid hits middle school and starts using a nickname.  They never do successfully retrain their family to call them that.  "Sorry, Steve, your family is going to call you Steven until they all die out." Besides, you can't call all Asians "Chino" then turn around and get annoyed that the United States-i-ans are going with "American.' I get that vocabulary does shift eventually, but I'm guessing this will happen sometime after we manage to switch to the metric system.

As for the original topic, didn't we all learn the puppy dog rhyme in geography?

I would actually love it if we could adopt the Germans' nickname for us, which is Amis (prononced AHM-eess - or singular, AHM-ee).  But I doubt I'll be able to get that to catch on... 😄

[elegantlion]

I tend to use UK and GB more interchangeably even though I'm aware of the difference. 

As a medieval historian who studies 12th and 13th century England, I view and discuss the countries seperately. Most of my research deals at the county/shire level. 

~person of the United States who has yet to visit England *sigh*

[wintermom]

11 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

One of my favourite podcasts, Americast from the BBC, was musing on the use of 'England' as a synonym for 'The UK'.  ETA: they had just had a highly educated and politically savvy guest on who used them synonymously, so they were curious about where that comes from. 

Could you help me with a little poll please?  All answers to the poll are anonymous and I won't pass on the ID of any comments.

I guess that person wasn't so politically savvy about England, um, I mean the UK. Or was that Great Britain. 😂 

If they mixed up Ireland and Northern Ireland they could risk some serious abuse depending on their audience. Oh dear, I guess politically savviness has its limits. 😉