Monuments and statues - discuss

[Matryoshka]

2 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Zinn was taught at my high school, alongside a range of others.  We also got a very diverse set of English Lit courses.  

Zinn was just being published when I was in high school... Sadly didn't get to it then...

I think I actually learned more about some of the darker chapters of US history in my Engish class - we had a whole semester of just Native American and African American literature. 

[PerfectFifth]

8 hours ago, dmmetler said:

There are also battlefields like Shiloh and Gettysburg and a lot of others that already have museums. This seems like a good place for the statues. 

 

But I also think that those who say "but they're going too far now" need to realize that there have been lots of peaceful efforts to get said statues removed, the Confederate flag off the MS state flag and have pointed out how painful the glorification of the Confederacy and the old South is. They have been largely ignored, and often treated as though the very request is a violent, offensive act that should not be sanctioned. Given the response those who want to remove monuments to more appropriate settings have gotten in my area, honestly I have a hard time complaining about those who finally are getting fed up and tearing them down. 

 

 

Amen! And thank you...I never could have said it this perfectly but you captured my thoughts exactly!

[PerfectFifth]

8 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

how do you feel about americans erecting statues of LENIN?  yeah - we've got one in seattle.  the russians trashed it.

eta" the protestors have left it alone.

I apologize if this was asked already, but I knew if I kept reading, I'd never find the post again....why is there a statue of Lenin in Seattle? Just curious.. I'm going to keep reading so if you've already answered this question..just ignore 😉

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by PerfectFifth

[TheReader]

53 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Howard Zinn should be required reading in every high school in America.

thank you; I'm putting this on my list. 

 

[bolt.]

34 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Not to brag, but the absolute coolest thing I did when I was homeschooling was create a both historically accurate and developmentally appropriate two year history course for K-2 utilizing picture books.  We did Trail of Tears, Civil War, Japanese internment.  I mean, certainly didn't cover everything, but we covered major highlights of pretty dark stuff.  

That's great. I think it can be done better in families and small groups. A full classroom is more of a challenge to see whether-and-how things are landing. I quite understand the challenges and constraints of a public education.

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, bolt. said:

That's great. I think it can be done better in families and small groups. A full classroom is more of a challenge to see whether-and-how things are landing. I quite understand the challenges and constraints of a public education.

This is likely true. 

[Junie]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Ya know, I am so, SO glad that all of my junior high social studies teachers were African American.  We never got past the Civil War in regular history, but thanks to black history month, and a belief that black history month wasn't just February, we learned all the things.  Tulsa bombings, Juneteenth, what led up to Rosa Parks staying seated on the bus, all those "Did you know?" things that go around facebook.  

I have never had an African American teacher.  K-12 all of my teachers were white.  In fact, I think all of the teachers in my K-12 schools were white.  And in my high school of roughly 1,000 students, there were maybe about 10 students who weren't white.

Two of my college professors were from India, but again no African American professors.

We definitely need more diversity in our classrooms.

 

[LucyStoner]

47 minutes ago, PerfectFifth said:

I apologize if this was asked already, but I knew if I kept reading, I'd never find the post again....why is there a statue of Lenin in Seattle? Just curious.. I'm going to keep reading so if you've already answered this question..just ignore 😉

 

someone bought it from a former Soviet Bloc city.  It has been on private property, but visible, for years.  It was not paid for by public funds and frankly, given the area that it is in I think more people regard it as ironic kitsch rather than in tribute to Lenin.  That said there have been people who have argued for it to be removed.  It is often decorated or dressed up in ways that are certainly not respectful to Lenin.  I’m of mixed minds (it’s a statute of a murderer who shouldn’t be lionized and it’s on private property and the meaning of symbols can change.)
 

I hope no one tries to topple it, it’s freaking huge, weighs a lot and someone would almost certainly get hurt.  It’s also for sale and if someone wanted to see it destroyed, they could pay the estate for it. 
 

assorted reading on this:

https://fremont.com/explore/sights/lenin-statue/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/seattle.curbed.com/platform/amp/2019/8/27/20830552/seattle-fremont-vladimir-lenin-statue-history (note the Fremont Chamber is a private organization)

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/lenin-statue-of-fremont

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by LucyStoner

[katilac]

14 minutes ago, bolt. said:

That's great. I think it can be done better in families and small groups. A full classroom is more of a challenge to see whether-and-how things are landing. I quite understand the challenges and constraints of a public education.

It's true that it's more of a challenge in a classroom, but it's certainly not impossible to cover some history with kids under 12. I'm actually baffled at the idea that a school shouldn't or wouldn't teach history until the middle grades. 

What causes most arguments among kids? Especially siblings?  That's not faiiiir, amirite? Kids zoom in on what's fair and what's not with laser focus. They don't need every single detail to understand that Native Americans lost their land to settlers and it wasn't fair because they had it first. They can understand that Americans of Japanese descent were rounded up and sent away, and it wasn't fair because they hadn't done anything wrong. They may not understand every nuance - who does? - but they can get where the conflict comes from. 

 

 

[katilac]

Kind of circling back to the people who didn't hear about the internment camps, I just saw this. How many haven't you heard of? I've never heard of the Red Summer of 1919 or Drapetomania. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by katilac

[bolt.]

12 minutes ago, katilac said:

It's true that it's more of a challenge in a classroom, but it's certainly not impossible to cover some history with kids under 12. I'm actually baffled at the idea that a school shouldn't or wouldn't teach history until the middle grades. 

What causes most arguments among kids? Especially siblings?  That's not faiiiir, amirite? Kids zoom in on what's fair and what's not with laser focus. They don't need every single detail to understand that Native Americans lost their land to settlers and it wasn't fair because they had it first. They can understand that Americans of Japanese descent were rounded up and sent away, and it wasn't fair because they hadn't done anything wrong. They may not understand every nuance - who does? - but they can get where the conflict comes from. 

 

 

They do cover some history (particularly pre-settler Native Peoples and traditions, with a bit of sailing and explorers, and a dash of homesteading) but it's very hard to grasp in vignette form, and it's hard to dig into.

I know that I would be in deep water pretty quick if I had one or two students actively trying to grasp the meat of that story...

Like, what's a settler? Just a farmer in the old days? What was wrong with their old farm? Why did they want the Native Peoples' farms? How did they get the Native Peoples to leave if they didn't want to? What? The old-timey farmers were murderers? No, it was the RCMP? Aren't they in the parade? Why would they murder people to let other farmers have it? And if they did, why are they in the parade? Are they safe now? No? But it's different now? (And at home, "Mom, Mrs. Bolt says that the RCMP aren't safe, and they murder people, but mostly Native people, and not so much any more, so I'm safe.")

Japanese descent is even harder. You'd have to start with, "What's Japan?" if you wanted any kind of legitimate understanding.

I'm glad I'm not an elementary classroom teacher, anyhow. It's not my forte (as you can probably see).

Edited June 25, 2020 by bolt.

[LucyStoner]

3 minutes ago, katilac said:

Kind of circling back to the people who didn't hear about the internment camps, I just saw this. How many have you heard of? 

Everything except the specific term draptomania while I was in K-12 or the first two years of college.  That said, I had an unusual education and was the nerdy kid reading that entire history text book at the start of the year.  

[LucyStoner]

49 minutes ago, TheReader said:

thank you; I'm putting this on my list. 

 

theres a version of his People’s History of the United States that is for younger people. We used that for homeschooling.  Once my son was older, I had him read the full version and also read other perspectives from more conservative sources.   

[Katy]

10 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

Everything except the specific term draptomania while I was in K-12 or the first two years of college.  That said, I had an unusual education and was the nerdy kid reading that entire history text book at the start of the year.  

 

Awww, you're our Hermione! 

I'm not familiar with draptomania either.  I didn't hear about Tulsa until I lived nearby and NPR was doing a series on it around the anniversary.  I grew up close enough to the Rosewood Masssacre to have driven past the highway marker multiple times but I didn't know the full history of that until I was an adult and had a smartphone either.

[katilac]

18 minutes ago, bolt. said:

 Japanese descent is even harder. You'd have to start with, "What's Japan?" if you wanted any kind of legitimate understanding.

Well, you'd really have to start with "what's a country?" but most schools do that very early on. From there, it's not difficult to explain that Japan is another country, that some people who live(d) in America are/were of Japanese descent, and that America went to war with Japan. Why did they put people in the camps? Because they thought they might cause trouble just because they were of Japanese descent, even if they were citizens who had promised loyalty to the United States. What do you think about that? It's not fair, because you shouldn't be punished before you do something wrong. It's not fair, because it's like that time my teacher asked me if I was going to cause trouble just because my brother did. 

I don't know enough about your Canadian example to speak to it specifically, but it sounds like the RCMP did indeed do terrible things, and that they stopped because XYZ. No one should hide that from kids, although you explain it differently to a six-yr-old than a ten-year-old. We (our country) allowed terrible things to happen, and this is what we did to correct them. What are some things we can do to keep it from happening again? And a six-yr-old might say to tell them to never do it again, and a ten-yr-old might have a more nuanced answer. 

You're still going to have that one kid that goes home and talks smack, though 😄

Edited June 25, 2020 by katilac

[LucyStoner]

10 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

Awww, you're our Hermione! 

I'm not familiar with draptomania either.  I didn't hear about Tulsa until I lived nearby and NPR was doing a series on it around the anniversary.  I grew up close enough to the Rosewood Masssacre to have driven past the highway marker multiple times but I didn't know the full history of that until I was an adult and had a smartphone either.

My obsessive academic reading was largely contained to history.  Well, I liked to read a lot of subjects but I was mostly into history.  I was often reading history or non-fiction about politics and economics when I should have been doing something else.  In my autistic sons, it’s called an obsessive interest.  In my childhood, it was just considered odd.  

Edited June 25, 2020 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

One year, we moved to Kentucky for a year.  The school I attended wasn’t great.  It was middle school and many students were legit unaware that Washington was a state.  Can’t say this phenomenon was limited to Kentucky because when I got back, some kids in Seattle were like “where is that?”  

I recall learning the names and capitals of all 50 states in about 3rd or 4th grade.  There was a song that taught them all in alphabetical order.  We also had to fill in a map.  There was a timed test.  

[katilac]

20 minutes ago, katilac said:

Well, you'd really have to start with "what's a country?" but most schools do that very early on. From there, it's not difficult to explain that Japan is another country, that some people who live(d) in America are/were of Japanese descent, and that America went to war with Japan. Why did they put people in the camps? 

Nerdily quoting myself to say that I don't think all first-graders need to study certain bits of history specifically, but they should be studying some history to set the stage for these really difficult discussions. I actually think that the WTM approach of starting with ancient history is excellent, because then they have some context and vocabulary for concepts like the rules that govern societies, the lust for power, war, invasion, peace, but it's a bit more removed and less emotional. And then you get some of those connections in when talking about current events or when a kid brings it up or asks if that thing still happens. 

And don't some of the big issues come up organically? When my kids were in preschool, they couldn't avoid knowing about the war against Afghanistan, because parents were being deployed right and left, so there's no choice but to explain war to 3- and 4-yr-olds. I can't imagine a 6-yr-old not knowing what war is. And they just pick things up, kids are always looking and listening. We never had the news on at home, rarely even had commercial TV playing when my kids were young (so no previews of the news). Yet my 8-yr-old saw Bernie Madoff on the cover of Newsweek and said, oh, that's the guy who cheated and stole everybody's money! I have no idea when or how she picked up that information, lol. I think we do kids a disservice when we act like they don't or shouldn't know about bad things, because bad things are much scarier when no one's talking about them. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by katilac

[PerfectFifth]

1 hour ago, LucyStoner said:

someone bought it from a former Soviet Bloc city.  It has been on private property, but visible, for years.  It was not paid for by public funds and frankly, given the area that it is in I think more people regard it as ironic kitsch rather than in tribute to Lenin.  That said there have been people who have argued for it to be removed.  It is often decorated or dressed up in ways that are certainly not respectful to Lenin.  I’m of mixed minds (it’s a statute of a murderer who shouldn’t be lionized and it’s on private property and the meaning of symbols can change.)
 

I hope no one tries to topple it, it’s freaking huge, weighs a lot and someone would almost certainly get hurt.  It’s also for sale and if someone wanted to see it destroyed, they could pay the estate for it. 
 

assorted reading on this:

https://fremont.com/explore/sights/lenin-statue/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/seattle.curbed.com/platform/amp/2019/8/27/20830552/seattle-fremont-vladimir-lenin-statue-history (note the Fremont Chamber is a private organization)

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/lenin-statue-of-fremont

 

Fascinating!!! Thanks for sharing!

[LucyStoner]

7 minutes ago, PerfectFifth said:

Fascinating!!! Thanks for sharing!

from about 1992-1996, I lived walking distance from Fremont.  I spent a lot of time at the Fremont Public Library.  I remember when it was installed.  No one was thinking it was meant to honor or commemorate Lenin.  Everyone was like “well, that’s a big piece of metal”.  It was more like “here’s this weird thing”.  I haven’t been by there in a while but last time I was his hand was painted blood red.  Which I think is an appropriate comment on Lenin.  

[PerfectFifth]

I remember reading that German education included the horrors of WWII at a very young age. They didn't sugar coat it. They wanted to make sure it never happened again and part of ensuring that meant being straightforward and honest! I can't find the article and I did read some more recent articles that said there seems to be less of a universal approach to the topic now and that is being looked at. I was a terrible student, lazy and never paid attention. I knew so little about history.  So when I started looking for textbooks to teach my own kids about American History, I wanted it to be interesting and engaging so they wouldn't blow it off like I did.  I was disturbed by how most of our dark history was glossed over, rationalized or just plain left out. I didn't know about the Japanese internment camps until I was an adult and my best friend told me her mom was in one in Hawaii! Even Rosa Parks was the lady who refused to give up her seat. Nothing about her work leading up to that day We need a complete rewrite of all of our history textbooks. They really are appalling.

[LucyStoner]

20 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

You know if they dumped blood daily on all the totalitarian human rights disasters as a running commentary about the millions of people they murdered I’d be on board.  I actually thought the idea upthread about adding additional displays or contrasting narratives about the history of some of the worse figures in American history wasn’t a bad one either.  I think if one can memorialize it, one shouldn’t be afraid to talk about the record in unflinching detail. I’d still rather have the most problematic ones civilly removed and have the encouraging, honoring figures remain unmolested and unvandalized, but fair informational exhibits surrounding them is probably actually a great idea.

A lot of the confederate statues are on public land and maintained with tax dollars.  Many of them are also of notoriously poor quality.  
 

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by LucyStoner

[PerfectFifth]

3 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

You know if they dumped blood daily on all the totalitarian human rights disasters as a running commentary about the millions of people they murdered I’d be on board.  I actually thought the idea upthread about adding additional displays or contrasting narratives about the history of some of the worse figures in American history wasn’t a bad one either.  I think if one can memorialize it, one shouldn’t be afraid to talk about the record in unflinching detail. I’d still rather have the most problematic ones civilly removed and have the encouraging, honoring figures remain unmolested and unvandalized, but fair informational exhibits surrounding them is probably actually a great idea.

I agree! I too,  loved the idea upthread of full history exhibits around the statues that are below ground level...I thought that was a brilliant idea! But, I think people are done waiting for civil removal. How long are we going to put this off? It's been said already, but I will repeat it, there have been protests, petitions, court cases....everything has been tried and no one listens. They need to go and if that means we throw them in a lake that's fine with me. If people had been willing to engage in honest dialogue we wouldn't be where we are right now.  Violent police kill unarmed men and women of color over and over again and we ignore it. This is what happens when you routinely ignore an entire community of people. And don't even get me started on things like "thoughts and prayers".

 I personally have not done a good job of engaging people in my life when they say inappropriate things. I awkwardly ignore it, or pull punches. So I am not much different than the people who don't want to discuss removal of statues. All I can do now is change. I need to boldly look at my bias and admit it. I need to call out inappropriate comments made by people in my family...and make sure I am not saying things also! And I will protest at a social distance against a biased policing system. It's time to get off my bottom. A unified nation is better for all of us.

Ok, I hope this makes sense and doesn't sound insensitive or anything. I haven't slept in days due to ridiculous hot flashes!! So I'm tired and foggy. 

[LucyStoner]

So when I heard someone had defaced a Washington statue my first thought was someone trying to take down the one of Washington on the campus of the University of Washington.  I don’t think that that would be a good idea, because Washington is of significance to the nation and the state is named for him.  Also, I don’t think random people could even safely take it down.  It’s huge.  Finally, I would hope that college students would have a reasonably nuanced understanding of Washington.  

[Carol in Cal.]

4 hours ago, Quill said:

I was 38 and taking a class at community college before I ever heard of Japanese Americans being interned. Either this was never taught in any school experience I had or it was glossed over/barely mentioned and I did not understand what was being said. “We dragged Japanese Americans from their homes and stuck them in camps? What?!” I could not believe it. I even talked about it on this board. 

I heard about it in a novel I read in my teens, just like the Holocaust.  Reading living books was a way of life for me long before TWTM.

[SoCal_Bear]

Just jumping in to add a couple of resources for those who want to teach a broader history. 

Ron Takaki's A Different Mirror for Young People - I was at Berkeley when he was teaching there. The original one is pretty much one of the books everyone reads who studies Ethnic Studies. His other book Strangers from a Different Shore is quite good as well. This is focused around Asian Americans. There's no young people version of it.

https://www.amazon.com/Different-Mirror-Young-People-Multicultural/dp/1609804163/ref=sr_1_1?crid=386GINYVTVS0X&dchild=1&keywords=different+mirror+for+young+people&qid=1593066700&s=books&sprefix=different+mirror+%2Cstripbooks%2C204&sr=1-1

Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz's An Indigenous Peoples History for Young People. This explores Native American history. 

https://www.amazon.com/Indigenous-Peoples-History-ReVisioning-American/dp/0807049395/ref=pd_sbs_14_2/133-0402768-8899809?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0807049395&pd_rd_r=c4304255-fcca-4d62-b28b-071f60bee727&pd_rd_w=HWHhA&pd_rd_wg=FZ921&pf_rd_p=bdc67ba8-ab69-42ee-b8d8-8f5336b36a83&pf_rd_r=TNNQPEM2X2ZAE54S4ZBX&psc=1&refRID=TNNQPEM2X2ZAE54S4ZBX

[SoCal_Bear]

If anyone is looking for a US history curriculum that focused on incorporating black history. A friend of a friend developed this for her family. There is a secular version of the curriculum available.

https://wokehomeschooling.com/

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by calbear

[Guest]

7 hours ago, katilac said:

Kind of circling back to the people who didn't hear about the internment camps, I just saw this. How many haven't you heard of? I've never heard of the Red Summer of 1919 or Drapetomania. 

Most of these I don’t remember ever hearing in school, even in high school. (It may have been mentioned but I don’t remember understanding the awfulness of these things.) Most I learned in the college class I mentioned with the very best history professor of my life. 

I don’t know what Red Summer or Drapetomania is. Off to learn...

[Guest]

7 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

One year, we moved to Kentucky for a year.  The school I attended wasn’t great.  It was middle school and many students were legit unaware that Washington was a state.  Can’t say this phenomenon was limited to Kentucky because when I got back, some kids in Seattle were like “where is that?”  

I recall learning the names and capitals of all 50 states in about 3rd or 4th grade.  There was a song that taught them all in alphabetical order.  We also had to fill in a map.  There was a timed test.  

Just imagine how it is to grow up in Maryland. Even people on the east coast seem to forget Maryland exists. People from the western US have looked at me with a complete question mark until I say, “...just outside of DC. The nation’s capital.” Then they have a positional. But I still think a lot of people have no mental space for the small state. 

[TravelingChris]

18 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

So, you think it would be okay if Germans kept up statues of their 'heroes' from WWII?  Hitler did a lot of great things for the German people.  Created the Autobahn system, for one.  Should we just overlook that 'cause he killed some people because of their ethnicity?  It was only the people who weren't 'really' German.  

Find out when those statues were put up.  Bet it was not right after the Civil War.  It was much later, and the purpose was pure intimidation of the African-American populace, along with night riders and cross burnings and lynchings. To remember their 'place'.  Those statues were never put up for some innocent 'honor our history'.  And why are we honoring a history of armed uprising against our government for the express purpose of keeping other people as property?  Why is that something we want to honor?   Statues are indeed symbols, and if they are a nice penny-dropping memory for you, but a symbol of oppression and fear for a large swath of the populace, which feeling do you think should prevail?

My city had lots of   things names for a prior SS member who made us, with many other former Nazi members,  the premier country in space. I have met some of these people and their wives.  They do not hold the same beliefs anymore and have since then lead totally different lives.  

[TravelingChris]

17 hours ago, lmrich said:

Statues are not where people learn history. 

Case in point - overheard at the Jefferson Memorial in DC... 

Son: Dad who is that? 

Dad: Benjamin Franklin; he was the fourth president, wrote the Constitution, and invented electricity 

Son: Wow!

Swear on my life this happened while I was there. Monuments and statues are meant to glorify; not to teach. I am sick of folks saying we can't erase history. 

I have never understood the Confederacy thing (I have lived in the South for 38 years) - I mean they lost; they were the traitors; they were wrong.. I could go on and on.. and most of those statues were put up during Jim Crowe times with the intent to enforce racist behavior. I don't get how someone can be proud that their great-great grandaddy died on the battlefield fighting for slavery. 

Look, not everyone died for slavery at all.  That is a complete lie.  The country they lived in at the time was in a war about slavery and state rights.  Most of the soldiers did not come from slave owning families.  They most likely were fighting for their families, freedom, etc,  because much higher ups had started a war and they were caught up in it.   So yes, I think it has sometimes morphed into Greatgranddaddy  was a hero and a great man for being a foot soldier for slavery  but most people in the South have moved on in the 155 years since the war.    

[TravelingChris]

17 hours ago, Quill said:

Many statues differ from this, though, because there is nothing instructive about them. They are just a dude on a horse or a dude on a pedestal and don’t do anything to preserve the history of whatever that person was honored for. Before this became an issue, I couldn’t have told you who was sitting on a pedestal at the State Circle in Annapolis, MD. Before we started talking about monuments to the Confederacy, I had no clue who Roger B. Taney was, why anyone would honor him (still gives me pause), nor any of the history or time period it was meant to commemorate (supposedly). In the case of Taney, research led me to learn that he wasn’t known for anything except the Dred Scott decision. Now, why would we honor and commemorate a man who declared that black people could never be “citizens”? It’s important to note that he had no other role that would justify honoring him. He is therefore not in the same category as George Washington. 

 

Those statues of a dud on a horse are often very good works of art and you are wrong that they don't teach anything.  I agree with don't need Tany on display but I am contradicting you that the statues of dudes on horses don't teach anything.  I grew up in the DC area.  There is a really nice statue of Pershing and I looked in the encyclopedia and read about him and then read more about WWI/  I diid the same for many stautes and monuments.  I still do the same and so does everyone in my family.  It has become much, much easier now with smart phone.

Now as to these protestors tearing down statutes of abolotionists, etc. ,  they are not just ignorant.   They could have in less that one minute found out who these people were.  

 

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I heard about it in a novel I read in my teens, just like the Holocaust.  Reading living books was a way of life for me long before TWTM.

 

23 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Those statues of a dud on a horse are often very good works of art and you are wrong that they don't teach anything.  I agree with don't need Tany on display but I am contradicting you that the statues of dudes on horses don't teach anything.  I grew up in the DC area.  There is a really nice statue of Pershing and I looked in the encyclopedia and read about him and then read more about WWI/  I diid the same for many stautes and monuments.  I still do the same and so does everyone in my family.  It has become much, much easier now with smart phone.

Now as to these protestors tearing down statutes of abolotionists, etc. ,  they are not just ignorant.   They could have in less that one minute found out who these people were.  

 

A lot of them are literally the same base statue with a different head stuck on. (which explains why they all look alike - they ARE alike)

That you saw one nice one in Washington, DC does not mean the majority in small towns around the country are also nicely done. 

Indeed, the Union and Confederate versions of the soldier statue were probably constructed from the same prefabricated parts. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/why-those-confederate-soldier-statues-look-a-lot-like-their-union-counterparts/2017/08/18/cefcc1bc-8394-11e7-ab27-1a21a8e006ab_story.html

Edited June 25, 2020 by Ktgrok

[LucyStoner]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

A lot of them are literally the same base statue with a different head stuck on. (which explains why they all look alike - they ARE alike)

That you saw one nice one in Washington, DC does not mean the majority in small towns around the country are also nicely done. 

Indeed, the Union and Confederate versions of the soldier statue were probably constructed from the same prefabricated parts. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/why-those-confederate-soldier-statues-look-a-lot-like-their-union-counterparts/2017/08/18/cefcc1bc-8394-11e7-ab27-1a21a8e006ab_story.html

I love this wrinkle in history.  Selling the same prefab monuments to both sides.  

[gardenmom5]

13 hours ago, PerfectFifth said:

I apologize if this was asked already, but I knew if I kept reading, I'd never find the post again....why is there a statue of Lenin in Seattle? Just curious.. I'm going to keep reading so if you've already answered this question..just ignore 😉

 

because when the USSR broke up, and they were tearing down statues of Lenin - someone bought it and brought it here.  

[gardenmom5]

14 hours ago, katilac said:

Whoa, whoa, back up the train! Lincoln didn't start the civil war at all. The Confederates started the war when they fired on Fort Sumter. 

It is true that ending slavery was not Lincoln's top priority; that was preserving the nation. 

 

you're correct - I worded it poorly.

[gardenmom5]

14 hours ago, MissLemon said:

 

 

I  

Sometimes, people of other races and backgrounds won't be nice to you, but it's not because they are "Black" or "Indian" or "Jewish" or "Female". It's because they are human beings who are also flawed or maybe having a bad day.  Their "otherness" doesn't predispose them to bad behavior, and your middle class whiteness doesn't entitle you to good treatment.  

 

 

she had a pattern - she bullied whites she had power over, and was fine to those of other races.  she was a racist.

[gardenmom5]

16 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

 

Can I ask what facts/info you base that belief on?

 

reading history and seeing those patterns, over and over and over and over again.  

like the saying goes - those who dont' study history are doomed to repeat it.

[LucyStoner]

11 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

There’s a great site calle Zinned.org    The publishing group has others similar, not written by Zinn. There’s A People’s History of the American Revolution,  and A People’s History of Sports. The last one, by Dave Zirin, is very interesting, and I am one of the least sports-interested people you could meet. 

I remember recommending Zinn on these boards over 15 years ago, and was basically shut down for being a socialist or communist( same thing to some people).

And then, if you want to hear him speak, look at the archives of Democracy Now. He was adorable.

 

I haven't been here 15 years but I recall a "share your curriculum plan for the year" type post and catching flack for Young People's History for sure.  The argument being WHY would I expose my kid to such ideas.  That was like 2 board interfaces ago.  I bet it was around the time my older son was in 3rd grade.  He's 17 this weekend.   
 

Edited June 25, 2020 by LucyStoner

[ktgrok]

47 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

she had a pattern - she bullied whites she had power over, and was fine to those of other races.  she was a racist.

Ok. Agreed. 

But again, to bring up this one racist lady you knew, versus the horrific pattern of racist enslavement, abuse, lynchings, segregation, redlining, etc etc etc ....there is no balance there. The scope is off. It doesn't mean it isn't true, but it certainly isn't on the same scope as what we are talking about. At all. 

[MEmama]

12 hours ago, PerfectFifth said:

I remember reading that German education included the horrors of WWII at a very young age. They didn't sugar coat it. They wanted to make sure it never happened again and part of ensuring that meant being straightforward and honest! I can't find the article and I did read some more recent articles that said there seems to be less of a universal approach to the topic now and that is being looked at. I was a terrible student, lazy and never paid attention. I knew so little about history.  So when I started looking for textbooks to teach my own kids about American History, I wanted it to be interesting and engaging so they wouldn't blow it off like I did.  I was disturbed by how most of our dark history was glossed over, rationalized or just plain left out. I didn't know about the Japanese internment camps until I was an adult and my best friend told me her mom was in one in Hawaii! Even Rosa Parks was the lady who refused to give up her seat. Nothing about her work leading up to that day We need a complete rewrite of all of our history textbooks. They really are appalling.

Interesting. My mother was born in Germany during the war and she has told me many times that they most definitely did not learn about it in school. History books went up to the turn of the century and stopped. And no adults spoke about it, it was all silence.

She learned more details and truths about the era in which she grew up 20+ years after the fact, first while living in France and the UK where she was subjected to horrible discrimination that she did not understand, and then later in the US. Perhaps it was the next generation—ours— that learned more.
 

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Ok. Agreed. 

But again, to bring up this one racist lady you knew, versus the horrific pattern of racist enslavement, abuse, lynchings, segregation, redlining, etc etc etc ....there is no balance there. The scope is off. It doesn't mean it isn't true, but it certainly isn't on the same scope as what we are talking about. At all. 

my point was - it goes both ways.  Have you ever heard of polar bear hunting?  they caught the most recent one of which I'm aware.  all on video the guy obviously had no clue was there. That was in the last week.

a 92 year old woman just walking down the sidewalk pushing her cart - and he was coming the other way.  he just reached right out, hit her and knocked her over where she hit her head on a firehydrant.  he didn't even slow down - but did turn around to see the aftermath.  

did you know roughly the same percentage of white males in the teen- 20 age range are killed by the police?  no - no one talks about that.   (not excusing it)

try listening to John McWorter - he's a professor at Columbia.  or Glenn Loury.  (not sure of his background).  Oh - they're both black, and they both use actual statistics..   comments were quite enlightening - there was one guy expressing his frustration that when he got his AA, no one in his family cared.  When he got his BA, only his dad came to his graduation - but when his cousin got out of prison for a violent crime .. . . . They threw a party with dozens of people in the park.  what do you think of those priorites?   -

  what do you think should be done about the black on black youth violence?   most young black males die at the hands of another black male - but we don't hear about that either.  Iwhat do you think we should do  to solve that problem?    

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

my point was - it goes both ways. 

  what do you think should be done about the black on black youth violence?   most young black males die at the hands of another black male - but we don't hear about that either.  Iwhat do you think we should do  to solve that problem?    

 

Of course it does, on an individual level, but not on a societal level unless you are able to tell me about the time black people enslaved a huge portion of the whites in the US, kept them from getting mortgages or moving into neighborhoods, etc etc. The scale matters. 

If someone is bleeding out, you don't start talking about the paper cut on the other guy, you know? 

As for black on black violence, I imagine the same should be done as is done on white on white violence, and I don't imagine it should be brought up as having anything to do with systemic racism. 

[katilac]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

my point was - it goes both ways.  Have you ever heard of polar bear hunting?  they caught the most recent one of which I'm aware.  all on video the guy obviously had no clue was there. That was in the last week.

a 92 year old woman just walking down the sidewalk pushing her cart - and he was coming the other way.  he just reached right out, hit her and knocked her over where she hit her head on a firehydrant.  he didn't even slow down - but did turn around to see the aftermath.  

did you know roughly the same percentage of white males in the teen- 20 age range are killed by the police?  no - no one talks about that.   (not excusing it)

try listening to John McWorter - he's a professor at Columbia.  or Glenn Loury.  (not sure of his background).  Oh - they're both black, and they both use actual statistics..   comments were quite enlightening - there was one guy expressing his frustration that when he got his AA, no one in his family cared.  When he got his BA, only his dad came to his graduation - but when his cousin got out of prison for a violent crime .. . . . They threw a party with dozens of people in the park.  what do you think of those priorites?   -

  what do you think should be done about the black on black youth violence?   most young black males die at the hands of another black male - but we don't hear about that either.  Iwhat do you think we should do  to solve that problem?    

 

So much to unbundle here.

There's no shortage of problems in the world. Right now, there is a focus on eliminating police brutality and systemic racism in police departments. That's a very worthy goal, yes? If, every time we went to work on a problem, we threw our hands in the air because there are also other problems, nothing would ever get done. The spotlight is on police brutality and systemic racism right now, that doesn't mean you can't choose to put your personal efforts toward other problems.  

You and another poster or two seem to respond to every statement about systemic racism and policy brutality with an example of a black person doing something bad. You can always find an example of a white person doing something bad to a black person, and vice versa. How is that relevant to working on the problem of systemic racism and police brutality? White people do bad things. Black people do bad things. White people commit crimes. Black people commit crimes. That is a separate issue. Police officers and police departments are rightly held to a higher standard: they are public servants, they are sworn to serve and protect, they have a tremendous amount of power over people. 

I think you're spouting incorrect stats, but so what if more young white people get killed by police than young black people? Do you not think that banning certain dangerous practices and teaching deescalation is going to help everyone who might otherwise be killed by police? Do you want this forward momentum to stop simply because you think dead black kids are getting more attention than dead white kids? 

Do you think that there aren't plenty of white families who don't prioritize education? Again, there are always bad examples. Is homeschooling bad because the Harts drove their kids off of a cliff? Should I shrug when I hear of an old white lady getting punched, because I know a mean old white lady who let her white employees steal? 

Y'all  just getting crazy now. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by katilac

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

Y'all  just getting crazy now. 

 

A minor quibble... been crazy.

[LucyStoner]

@gardenmom5

This is a helpful string of tweets.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1268463768285188096.html

ETA:  my thread unroll link was pointed at the totally wrong thread.  I fixed it.  

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by LucyStoner

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

@gardenmom5

This is a helpful string of tweets.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1265709670892580869.html 

 

YESSS!!!!

If anyone wants to discuss 'black on black" crime please read this first. Please. 

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

@gardenmom5

This is a helpful string of tweets.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1268463768285188096.html

ETA:  my thread unroll link was pointed at the totally wrong thread.  I fixed it.  

 

That is extremely useful, thanks so much for posting it. 👍

[Pen]

Don’t know if already mentioned, but Princeton is dropping “Woodrow Wilson” from the name of its School of public policy and international affairs.  About time IMO. 

[TravelingChris]

On 6/25/2020 at 9:41 PM, Ktgrok said:

YESSS!!!!

If anyone wants to discuss 'black on black" crime please read this first. Please. 

What is the response?  I am truly confused.