Ugh help

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

There is a second couple? Did I miss a post somewhere? (Probably!)

No I haven't mentioned them in this thread.  And I don't think I should give details of it.  It is just a bizarre times in our congregation the last few years.  

[Garga]

12 minutes ago, EmseB said:

You've never heard of, say, Christians being called out for being hypocrites for tacitly condoning (or not addressing or being concerned about) divorce or adultery within the church but being against gay marriage at the same time?

This is just one example I can think of off the top of my head, but there a lot of others where Christians are charged with being hypocrites. Oh, and allowing priests to be moved around in the RCC and not reported when higher ups knew of their sexual abuse of minors, there's another one where  not addressing sin in a church is a huge problem for a number of reasons, with hypocrisy being up there on the list.

 

Another example of potential hypocrisy that had huge repercussions for those involved:

The previous pastor at the church I attended for many years was removed as pastor because he married a divorced woman.  That church believes that marrying after a divorce is committing adultery--for both the divorcee and the new spouse.  The pastor had taught that himself from the pulpit.  But he fell in love with a divorced person.  The church told him that he could not be their pastor if he married her, because he would be committing adultery with her.  He married her and is no longer the pastor there.

If a church that believes marrying after a divorce has a pastor who married a divorced person, then the entire church would be hypocritical. 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Garga

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

No I haven't mentioned them in this thread.  And I don't think I should give details of it.  It is just a bizarre times in our congregation the last few years.  

 

Thanks — I just wanted to be sure I hadn’t missed anything important!  🙂

[unsinkable]

6 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Thanks — I just wanted to be sure I hadn’t missed anything important!  🙂

Curiosity killed the cat...But satisfaction brought her back!

[Annie G]

Is there premarital counseling in your church? Ours explores all sorts of things in order to determine if the couple is ready for marriage, including financial readiness, maturity,etc.  Of course even if the priest declines to marry a couple they can go have a civil ceremony. 

What a difficult way to start a marriage- nowhere to live, no steady job, little community support. 

[hippiemamato3]

Does the girl have a job? 

[fairfarmhand]

I don’t see and moral grounds to boycott the wedding. There’s nothing immoral about marrying a bum.

when I got married, I was quite pregnant and my parents were very upset about it. They felt I wasn’t ready. I was immature. I was young. But I was 18. My parents wouldn’t sign for me, but that was ok. We waited till 4 days after I turned 18.

but what meant a lot to me was that my church family came around me and supported 

My decision whether or not they felt it was the best. I had church friend drive 10 hours to attend the wedding, they bought me baby gifts later on...theyfelt that it was my decision and not their place to judge it. 

I really is her parents place to put the kibosh on it all and I see no reason for the congregation to step in and rain on the parade, particularly since it’s just a matter of months till she’ll be 18. Go to the wedding. Keep those doors open in the congregation. And pray that the young man gets it together.

[PeachyDoodle]

2 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

I don’t see and moral grounds to boycott the wedding. There’s nothing immoral about marrying a bum.

when I got married, I was quite pregnant and my parents were very upset about it. They felt I wasn’t ready. I was immature. I was young. But I was 18. My parents wouldn’t sign for me, but that was ok. We waited till 4 days after I turned 18.

but what meant a lot to me was that my church family came around me and supported 

My decision whether or not they felt it was the best. I had church friend drive 10 hours to attend the wedding, they bought me baby gifts later on...theyfelt that it was my decision and not their place to judge it. 

I really is her parents place to put the kibosh on it all and I see no reason for the congregation to step in and rain on the parade, particularly since it’s just a matter of months till she’ll be 18. Go to the wedding. Keep those doors open in the congregation. And pray that the young man gets it together.

I agree. I realize it's not a done deal, but I think love and support will go a lot further towards helping this situation than trying to stop it. Handled well, the community can help this young man get his act together and help the couple make a successful marriage. 

Totally unrelated to your post, fairfarmhand, but I find it interesting that religious communities that place a strong emphasis on abstaining from premarital sex (my own included) also often strongly encourage young people to delay marriage. The two goals seem counter-intuitive, given normal human appetites, especially in the teens and early 20's. I understand the need to be self-supporting, but many a young couple has started out in life with barely anything and managed to make a go of it. This is the whole idea behind bridal showers -- helping the new couple to get on their feet. It wonder if it wouldn't be more effective for religious communities to encourage early marriage -- and support it! -- than to spend so much energy railing against premarital sex. 

Of course I'm not advocating child brides or anything of the sort. And support would include preparing children and teens for marriage in much the same way we prepare them for a career. 

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

I agree. I realize it's not a done deal, but I think love and support will go a lot further towards helping this situation than trying to stop it. Handled well, the community can help this young man get his act together and help the couple make a successful marriage. 

Totally unrelated to your post, fairfarmhand, but I find it interesting that religious communities that place a strong emphasis on abstaining from premarital sex (my own included) also often strongly encourage young people to delay marriage. The two goals seem counter-intuitive, given normal human appetites, especially in the teens and early 20's. I understand the need to be self-supporting, but many a young couple has started out in life with barely anything and managed to make a go of it. This is the whole idea behind bridal showers -- helping the new couple to get on their feet. It wonder if it wouldn't be more effective for religious communities to encourage early marriage -- and support it! -- than to spend so much energy railing against premarital sex. 

Of course I'm not advocating child brides or anything of the sort. And support would include preparing children and teens for marriage in much the same way we prepare them for a career. 

I think there has to be a balance. The Bible says marriage should be delayed until people are past the bloom of youth.  That obviously means different things to different people.  I think 17 is too young to marry, but I do t think people need to wait until they are 30 either.  

[PeachyDoodle]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I think there has to be a balance. The Bible says marriage should be delayed until people are past the bloom of youth.  That obviously means different things to different people.  I think 17 is too young to marry, but I do t think people need to wait until they are 30 either.  

I'm not familiar with that scripture.

I don't necessarily think 17 is too young (plenty of people have done it) but I certainly wouldn't advocate for it universally. And of course there are varying situations. 

But our society, including our communities of faith, are kind of afraid of marriage. It seems to me that in a way we have turned marriage into a mysterious magic that's so hyper-individualized that no one can understand it except the two people in it and has to be treated with kid gloves lest it spontaneously self-destruct. If we took more time teaching young people what marriage is, and preparing them to enter into it with the right skills to make it work, it might be more successful. In general, I think faith communities that value marriage ought to be holding an expectation of marriage for young people reaching maturity the way we hold one for higher education/career training, instead of treating it like something you can't possibly be ready for until you've fully realized a long list of other goals (college, career, money, finding yourself, etc.) first. Instead of treating sex and marriage as something that's "not for you, at least not for a loooong time, until you're ready and have found the right person" (whatever that means), we should teach our kids to expect and look forward to marrying just as we teach them to expect and look forward to having a career.

Churches should spend at least as much time teaching about what marriage is why we should desire it as they do teaching what sex is and why we should avoid it outside of marriage. If I had a nickel for every rule I've heard about how far is "too far," I could take the kids on that educational trip around the world I've dreamed of.

Sometimes I think cultures that practice arranged marriages are on to something. I realize that's not likely to be a popular view.

[fairfarmhand]

20 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

I agree. I realize it's not a done deal, but I think love and support will go a lot further towards helping this situation than trying to stop it. Handled well, the community can help this young man get his act together and help the couple make a successful marriage. 

Totally unrelated to your post, fairfarmhand, but I find it interesting that religious communities that place a strong emphasis on abstaining from premarital sex (my own included) also often strongly encourage young people to delay marriage. The two goals seem counter-intuitive, given normal human appetites, especially in the teens and early 20's. I understand the need to be self-supporting, but many a young couple has started out in life with barely anything and managed to make a go of it. This is the whole idea behind bridal showers -- helping the new couple to get on their feet. It wonder if it wouldn't be more effective for religious communities to encourage early marriage -- and support it! -- than to spend so much energy railing against premarital sex. 

Of course I'm not advocating child brides or anything of the sort. And support would include preparing children and teens for marriage in much the same way we prepare them for a career. 

Yes! I totally agree. Young people can get conflicting ideas very easily.

Perhaps young men should be encouraged to go into fields that don’t require 4 or 6 year college degrees,  young couples can live in a basement apartment at grandmas, maintaining the home in exchange for a break on rent, and parents can teach kids to have very simple tastes and low expectations. I’ve never understood parents who won’t pay for college if a kid gets married. I’d rather my kid get married if they’re SURE ( not advocating marriage at age 17-18, but I wouldn’t die if my 19-20 year old with a solid plan In place didn’t want to wait.) than violate Gods commandments while waiting for a more suitable arrangement. 

The main thing is to make sure that a decent plan is in place and both young people are willing to work very hard!

theres nothing wrong with hard work and growing together.

[PeachyDoodle]

8 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Yes! I totally agree. Young people can get conflicting ideas very easily.

Perhaps young men should be encouraged to go into fields that don’t require 4 or 6 year college degrees,  young couples can live in a basement apartment at grandmas, maintaining the home in exchange for a break on rent, and parents can teach kids to have very simple tastes and low expectations. I’ve never understood parents who won’t pay for college if a kid gets married. I’d rather my kid get married if they’re SURE ( not advocating marriage at age 17-18, but I wouldn’t die if my 19-20 year old with a solid plan In place didn’t want to wait.) than violate Gods commandments while waiting for a more suitable arrangement. 

The main thing is to make sure that a decent plan is in place and both young people are willing to work very hard!

theres nothing wrong with hard work and growing together.

Exactly. We seem to see marriage as a hard line, and once a couple crosses it, they're supposed to be immediately self-sustaining. So it only makes sense for young people to meet all or most of their educational and baseline financial goals (at a minimum) before "settling down." 

I wonder if we wouldn't be better off to see marriage as a natural part of the transition to adulthood, with continued but weaning support for the young couple as needed. Not allowing mooching, of course! But your example of living in Grandma's basement apartment is a good example. Perhaps that would make entering into marriage less daunting. 

[fairfarmhand]

5 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

Exactly. We seem to see marriage as a hard line, and once a couple crosses it, they're supposed to be immediately self-sustaining. So it only makes sense for young people to meet all or most of their educational and baseline financial goals (at a minimum) before "settling down." 

I wonder if we wouldn't be better off to see marriage as a natural part of the transition to adulthood, with continued but weaning support for the young couple as needed. Not allowing mooching, of course! But your example of living in Grandma's basement apartment is a good example. Perhaps that would make entering into marriage less daunting. 

Wouldn’t it be better for families to somewhat help young couples (reduce rent in exchange for work type thing, not just passing out money) for a year or two while they’re finishing school or whatnot than to spend $15k on a fancy wedding?

how could this look in real life?

I mentioned a couple living with grandma while helping her maintain her home. 

Perhaps the couple could help with  childcare/nannying of siblings?

we have a stash of used furniture in our garage because my kids may need it sometime when they’re starting out. 

Getting the use of a family car for a short time if needed.

i realize that many families financially CAN’T do these things, but of those who could do them were willing, it would make marriage less scary to young people.

[Garga]

47 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I think there has to be a balance. The Bible says marriage should be delayed until people are past the bloom of youth.  That obviously means different things to different people.  I think 17 is too young to marry, but I do t think people need to wait until they are 30 either.  

That isn’t ringing a bell with me as a scripture——what scripture is it?  I can usually figure out what scripture someone is referring to even if it’s a different translation, but that one isn’t ringing a bell.

28 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Yes! I totally agree. Young people can get conflicting ideas very easily.

Perhaps young men should be encouraged to go into fields that don’t require 4 or 6 year college degrees,  young couples can live in a basement apartment at grandmas, maintaining the home in exchange for a break on rent, and parents can teach kids to have very simple tastes and low expectations. I’ve never understood parents who won’t pay for college if a kid gets married. I’d rather my kid get married if they’re SURE ( not advocating marriage at age 17-18, but I wouldn’t die if my 19-20 year old with a solid plan In place didn’t want to wait.) than violate Gods commandments while waiting for a more suitable arrangement. 

The main thing is to make sure that a decent plan is in place and both young people are willing to work very hard!

theres nothing wrong with hard work and growing together.

 

I was just reading about the Amish last night.  They get married and spend their first night at the bride’s home, where they clean up the house as a thank you to the family for teaching them how to maintain a home and for raising them. 

They spend a couple of weeks visiting all their relatives and living with them as guests for their honeymoon.

Then they go back to the bride’s home and live there while they get established and get enough money together to build a house of their own.

When women in particular get old and widowed, they get their own little houses right next door to their children’s houses where they can still be a part of the family but also have their own space.

Basically, you’re never shoved out of the nest too abruptly.  There is always family support until you’re firmly established.  Sounds exactly like what you’re talking about above. 

Edited February 16, 2019 by Garga

[PeachyDoodle]

3 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Wouldn’t it be better for families to somewhat help young couples (reduce rent in exchange for work type thing, not just passing out money) for a year or two while they’re finishing school or whatnot than to spend $15k on a fancy wedding?

how could this look in real life?

I mentioned a couple living with grandma while helping her maintain her home. 

Perhaps the couple could help with  childcare/nannying of siblings?

we have a stash of used furniture in our garage because my kids may need it sometime when they’re starting out. 

Getting the use of a family car for a short time if needed.

i realize that many families financially CAN’T do these things, but of those who could do them were willing, it would make marriage less scary to young people.

Yes, I love these ideas! (And truly, I don't get the big, expensive wedding thing -- especially after having helped to plan my sister's lavish affair last year. At least I didn't have to pay for it! But I think it's all related to our idea of what marriage IS.)

 

1 minute ago, Garga said:

That isn’t ringing a bell with me as a scripture——what scripture is it?  I can usually figure out what scripture someone is referring to even if it’s a different translation, but that one isn’t ringing a bell.

 

I was just reading about the Amish last night.  They get married and spend their first night at the bride’s home, where they clean up the house as a thank you to the family for teaching them how to maintain a home and for raising them. 

They spent a couple of weeks visiting all their relatives and living with them as their honeymoon.

Then, they go back to the bride’s home and live there while they get established and get enough together to build a house of their own.

When women in particular get old and widowed, they get their own little houses right next door to their children’s houses.

Basically, you’re never shoved out of the nest too abruptly.  There is always family support until you’re firmly established.  Sounds exactly like what you’re talking about above.

That's fascinating. And really, this is not a far-fetched idea. Historically speaking, I think our modern society's approach to marriage is the outlier.

[alisoncooks]

8 minutes ago, Garga said:

That isn’t ringing a bell with me as a scripture——what scripture is it?  I can usually figure out what scripture someone is referring to even if it’s a different translation, but that one isn’t ringing a bell.

Nor I but apparently it's certain translations of 1 Cor. 7:36. It's never been a phrase/idea taught my faith.

https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/7-36.htm

[Scarlett]

38 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Yes! I totally agree. Young people can get conflicting ideas very easily.

Perhaps young men should be encouraged to go into fields that don’t require 4 or 6 year college degrees,  young couples can live in a basement apartment at grandmas, maintaining the home in exchange for a break on rent, and parents can teach kids to have very simple tastes and low expectations. I’ve never understood parents who won’t pay for college if a kid gets married. I’d rather my kid get married if they’re SURE ( not advocating marriage at age 17-18, but I wouldn’t die if my 19-20 year old with a solid plan In place didn’t want to wait.) than violate Gods commandments while waiting for a more suitable arrangement. 

The main thing is to make sure that a decent plan is in place and both young people are willing to work very hard!

theres nothing wrong with hard work and growing together.

Yes.  Xh and I along with dh have vowed that we will pay what we can to help with school whether he is married or single.  Otherwise it seems punitive...oh you got Married? Too bad so sad now you are on your own.  How does that jive with helpin your kids maintain good morals. 

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, alisoncooks said:

Nor I but apparently it's certain translations of 1 Cor. 7:36. It's never been a phrase/idea taught my faith.

https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/7-36.htm

36 But if anyone thinks he is behaving improperly by remaining unmarried, and if he is past the bloom of youth, then this is what should take place: Let him do what he wants; he does not sin. Let them marry. 

This is the translation I use. 

[PeachyDoodle]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

36 But if anyone thinks he is behaving improperly by remaining unmarried, and if he is past the bloom of youth, then this is what should take place: Let him do what he wants; he does not sin. Let them marry. 

This is the translation I use. 

Interesting. All the translations I see on Bible Hub say "she" not "he." Which I would take as a reference to menarche and would be considerably younger than most of us would be comfortable with here.

[fairfarmhand]

Oh, thought of another one...living in someone’s camper in the backyard for a year or two until the couple is established. 

[hippiemamato3]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I think there has to be a balance. The Bible says marriage should be delayed until people are past the bloom of youth.  That obviously means different things to different people.  I think 17 is too young to marry, but I do t think people need to wait until they are 30 either.  

 Interesting - Apostle Paul is quoted as using that terminology in the JW bible, but not really anywhere else. Since people routinely married as very young teens during biblical times, I don't think this is referring to people who are (a few short months from) legal adults. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, hippiemamato3 said:

 Interesting - Apostle Paul is quoted as using that terminology in the JW bible, but not really anywhere else. Since people routinely married as very young teens during biblical times, I don't think this is referring to people who are (a few short months from) legal adults. 

Well legal is one thing....varies so much over time. 

[hippiemamato3]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well legal is one thing....varies so much over time. 

I'm not big on infantilizing adults really, so I don't have an issue with young marriage. Lots of people start out with nothing, and build great things together.

[Scarlett]

Just now, hippiemamato3 said:

I'm not big on infantilizing adults really, so I don't have an issue with young marriage. Lots of people start out with nothing, and build great things together.

True.  Which is why I have hope for this couple.   He may well figure it out and step up. 

[Katy]

6 hours ago, Seasider too said:

 

Nope. The only firm etiquette here is that one cannot invite a guest to a shower who is not also invited to the wedding. 

Schedules may not permit guests to attend both, sometimes older family members will come out for a daytime shower but not for a nighttime event that might run late. People may have other events. 

 

You're right, but my claim that she must go if she's going to the shower is a personal one, not an etiquette rule. If she objects to the marriage she shouldn't support it by going to the shower either.  Obviously if she already had other plans she could send regrets without worrying about it.

[BusyMom5]

After recently contemplating a different marriage situation l have came to the conclusion that my line in the sand is abuse, coercion,  or taking advantage of one partner.  I do not know the specific situation,  but you can judge for yourself.  Do you think this girl is capable of making her own choice?  Is she being coerced or pushed into marriage too quickly?  Maniplated, Infatuated, either by him, her parents or their church?

Myself, I would not sign for her to marry at 17. They can wait a few more months.  I do wish them the best.  

[Storygirl]

This is not on topic for the OP, really, but in response to some of the comments advocating early marriage. There are some counterpoints that I think are important to consider.

First, the Bible instructs us to leave and cleave -- cleave to the spouse as your new family, and reduce dependence upon parents. (Genesis 2:24). Being financially dependent upon extended family can create some real tension and issues. I think this concept is at least part of what is behind the feeling of some parents that once their children are married, they need to be financially independent. I'm not sure how many grandparents really want married kids living in their basement, to be honest.

Secondly, I fear that having churches put a lot of emphasis on early marriage would create its own set of problems. I personally would have loved to be married in my early twenties but didn't find my husband until I was almost 30. If my church had taught that early marriage was expected, it would have just crushed me. It was hard enough dealing with my own feelings about not having a husband when others around me did, without also having to deal with my church telling me that I was missing the mark, because I had not married early. God had a plan for me that meant meeting my husband later. I was just talking with a friend today who didn't get married until she was in her forties and was told by someone when she was still single that there must be something wrong with her, since no one had wanted her. So, so painful. Do we want churches to be imposing the idea that early marriage is the ideal, when it would hurt so many people emotionally for whom God has a different plan?

Thirdly, I think that for those who choose chastity and have to wait years for a spouse (or never get married), I think there is spiritual growth and learning that can happen during that time. I would say that God has an individual plan for each of us, and that facing temptation can teach us a lot. And I think that marriage should be based on much more than physical attraction, and if we elevate physical attraction as the primary reason for marriage, we risk generating a long list of other problems.

I wasn't going to add my comments to the discussion, but I found I needed to express my thoughts instead of holding them in. I would have had very hard time if I had felt that I was not measuring up to my church's expectations for finding a husband. That's a burden our young people don't need to bear. God's plan is NOT for everyone to marry young, and so I don't think it should be a teaching of the church.

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

This is not on topic for the OP, really, but in response to some of the comments advocating early marriage. There are some counterpoints that I think are important to consider.

First, the Bible instructs us to leave and cleave -- cleave to the spouse as your new family, and reduce dependence upon parents. (Genesis 2:24). Being financially dependent upon extended family can create some real tension and issues. I think this concept is at least part of what is behind the feeling of some parents that once their children are married, they need to be financially independent. I'm not sure how many grandparents really want married kids living in their basement, to be honest.

Secondly, I fear that having churches put a lot of emphasis on early marriage would create its own set of problems. I personally would have loved to be married in my early twenties but didn't find my husband until I was almost 30. If my church had taught that early marriage was expected, it would have just crushed me. It was hard enough dealing with my own feelings about not having a husband when others around me did, without also having to deal with my church telling me that I was missing the mark, because I had not married early. God had a plan for me that meant meeting my husband later. I was just talking with a friend today who didn't get married until she was in her forties and was told by someone when she was still single that there must be something wrong with her, since no one had wanted her. So, so painful. Do we want churches to be imposing the idea that early marriage is the ideal, when it would hurt so many people emotionally for whom God has a different plan?

Thirdly, I think that for those who choose chastity and have to wait years for a spouse (or never get married), I think there is spiritual growth and learning that can happen during that time. I would say that God has an individual plan for each of us, and that facing temptation can teach us a lot. And I think that marriage should be based on much more than physical attraction, and if we elevate physical attraction as the primary reason for marriage, we risk generating a long list of other problems.

I wasn't going to add my comments to the discussion, but I found I needed to express my thoughts instead of holding them in. I would have had very hard time if I had felt that I was not measuring up to my church's expectations for finding a husband. That's a burden our young people don't need to bear. God's plan is NOT for everyone to marry young, and so I don't think it should be a teaching of the church.

I don’t think churches or parents should teach either to marry young or older. I’m just saying to let things unfold. And don’t pressure people either way. If a young person has a career that requires long years in college, prepare them for the struggle that chastity will be. Many young people don’t really date seriously as in doing more than coffee and a movie with an exclusive person because they don’t want to deal with temptation and fight that until their education is complete. That’s a valid place to be too.

but if one of my kids has a decent plan in place and they’re adult age, I’m not going to frown upon a youngish marriage.

i hope that parents and churches both understand that all people are different and can walk different paths.

[PeachyDoodle]

8 hours ago, Storygirl said:

This is not on topic for the OP, really, but in response to some of the comments advocating early marriage. There are some counterpoints that I think are important to consider.

First, the Bible instructs us to leave and cleave -- cleave to the spouse as your new family, and reduce dependence upon parents. (Genesis 2:24). Being financially dependent upon extended family can create some real tension and issues. I think this concept is at least part of what is behind the feeling of some parents that once their children are married, they need to be financially independent. I'm not sure how many grandparents really want married kids living in their basement, to be honest.

Secondly, I fear that having churches put a lot of emphasis on early marriage would create its own set of problems. I personally would have loved to be married in my early twenties but didn't find my husband until I was almost 30. If my church had taught that early marriage was expected, it would have just crushed me. It was hard enough dealing with my own feelings about not having a husband when others around me did, without also having to deal with my church telling me that I was missing the mark, because I had not married early. God had a plan for me that meant meeting my husband later. I was just talking with a friend today who didn't get married until she was in her forties and was told by someone when she was still single that there must be something wrong with her, since no one had wanted her. So, so painful. Do we want churches to be imposing the idea that early marriage is the ideal, when it would hurt so many people emotionally for whom God has a different plan?

Thirdly, I think that for those who choose chastity and have to wait years for a spouse (or never get married), I think there is spiritual growth and learning that can happen during that time. I would say that God has an individual plan for each of us, and that facing temptation can teach us a lot. And I think that marriage should be based on much more than physical attraction, and if we elevate physical attraction as the primary reason for marriage, we risk generating a long list of other problems.

I wasn't going to add my comments to the discussion, but I found I needed to express my thoughts instead of holding them in. I would have had very hard time if I had felt that I was not measuring up to my church's expectations for finding a husband. That's a burden our young people don't need to bear. God's plan is NOT for everyone to marry young, and so I don't think it should be a teaching of the church.

I think there's a difference between teaching young people they SHOULD get married young, and being supportive of it. I am advocating the latter. Any time the church makes a law out of something that God has not given a commandment for, we have a problem, and young marriage is no exception. But marriage is scripturally and traditionally something the church has held as an ideal. I'm also not advocating marriage in a situation where a couple would be financially dependent on other adults. They should be reasonably self-supporting and working towards complete financial independence. But I think the idea that a couple isn't "ready" for marriage until they have completed all education, established a career, and saved a substantial nest egg is not helpful in the long run, and not all that realistic overall when it comes to religious teaching on sexual morality. Chastity isn't impossible, but it is HARD, and as many people fail at it as succeed. 

The Bible does teach "leave and cleave," but that has rarely been interpreted historically as "leave this house and don't come back." It refers to a more general sense of priorities I think. But regardless, support doesn't have to mean living in someone's basement; that was one of several examples that include things as simple as making a gift of used furniture. It could mean assistance with the down payment on a small home, or even the security deposit on an apartment. It could mean having the young couple over for a home-cooked meal a couple of times a week so they can keep their grocery budget down. It could just be encouragement. Mostly when I say support, it means teaching young people that marriage is a good thing and not something to be afraid of so that they feel they have to wait until conditions are perfect before they will embark on it.

When dh and I first married, I worked as an assistant in a day care center, and he was mowing lawns for the local school system. He worked nights at a furniture plant in order to save up enough to buy a damaged bed for us to sleep in. All the rest of our furniture was cast-off. We were lucky to find a little house to rent that was super-cheap, but it looked exactly like our friends' college apartments. Could we have waited another 2-3 years to establish our careers before getting married? Sure. But there was no reason why we should. In fact, we got some "advice" from various acquaintances that we were too young (we were 21), but we fortunately had the support of our families, who knew that there's no such things as perfect conditions for marriage and that we would do like thousands of couples who've gone before us and make it work. 

You and I, I think, have a difference of theology that impacts our perspective somewhat, which centers around the idea of "God's plan." I personally think that the church's over-emphasis on "God's plan" for years and years has done a lot of damage to marriage within the faith community, and it factors into what I said above. Certainly I believe that God is sovereign and that he works all things for our good, as scripture teaches. But there's a bit of romanticism that plays into this idea that God has a perfect person (or job, or what have you) out there chosen for me that I have to find. I don't see it as scriptural, and I believe that marriage, like most of our vocations, is one of those things that God leaves up to us to decide, with the help of scripture, counsel, and plain common sense. I'd rather see the church get rid of this kind of teaching and focus on actually preparing young people for the vocation of marriage, including the self-sacrificing aspect, as well as all the benefits of committing to another person for a lifetime.

All that said, I will apologize to Scarlett for hijacking her thread. I think we need to move to another thread if we want to continue this conversation.

Edited February 16, 2019 by PeachyDoodle

[Storygirl]

55 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

 

You and I, I think, have a difference of theology that impacts our perspective somewhat, which centers around the idea of "God's plan." I personally think that the church's over-emphasis on "God's plan" for years and years has done a lot of damage to marriage within the faith community, and it factors into what I said above. Certainly I believe that God is sovereign and that he works all things for our good, as scripture teaches. But there's a bit of romanticism that plays into this idea that God has a perfect person (or job, or what have you) out there chosen for me that I have to find. I don't see it as scriptural, and I believe that marriage, like most of our vocations, is one of those things that God leaves up to us to decide, with the help of scripture, counsel, and plain common sense. I'd rather see the church get rid of this kind of teaching and focus on actually preparing young people for the vocation of marriage, including the self-sacrificing aspect, as well as all the benefits of committing to another person for a lifetime.

All that said, I will apologize to Scarlett for hijacking her thread. I think we need to move to another thread if we want to continue this conversation.

You are assuming incorrectly what I mean about God's plans for us. First, I am not speaking of anything my church has taught, but about my understanding of scripture and my belief that God cares about each of us personally and has a plan for our lives in general; not that He has a person picked out for us and that we are burdened to find that right person or else. My churches have not actually ever taught the concept of God's plan that you describe above.

I have found that Christian communities in general place a high value on the importance and sanctity of marriage, which is as it should be. But God does not call everyone to be married young. I think that it is appropriate for us as Christians to support each individual in the path that is set before them. Some things we can choose for ourselves; others are out of our control. No body has control over whether someone will fall in love with them at a certain time in life, and there are many people who want that kind of love who have not been blessed with it. The churches that I have attended have had robust premarital ministries that aim to prepare people for marriage in the ways that you mention.

I imagine that people who have married young and those who wanted to marry young but found that God's plan for marriage in their life did not match their own desires will approach this topic with different perspectives.

 

[Storygirl]

14 hours ago, PeachyDoodle said:

I'm not familiar with that scripture.

I don't necessarily think 17 is too young (plenty of people have done it) but I certainly wouldn't advocate for it universally. And of course there are varying situations. 

But our society, including our communities of faith, are kind of afraid of marriage. It seems to me that in a way we have turned marriage into a mysterious magic that's so hyper-individualized that no one can understand it except the two people in it and has to be treated with kid gloves lest it spontaneously self-destruct. If we took more time teaching young people what marriage is, and preparing them to enter into it with the right skills to make it work, it might be more successful. In general, I think faith communities that value marriage ought to be holding an expectation of marriage for young people reaching maturity the way we hold one for higher education/career training, instead of treating it like something you can't possibly be ready for until you've fully realized a long list of other goals (college, career, money, finding yourself, etc.) first. Instead of treating sex and marriage as something that's "not for you, at least not for a loooong time, until you're ready and have found the right person" (whatever that means), we should teach our kids to expect and look forward to marrying just as we teach them to expect and look forward to having a career.

Churches should spend at least as much time teaching about what marriage is why we should desire it as they do teaching what sex is and why we should avoid it outside of marriage. If I had a nickel for every rule I've heard about how far is "too far," I could take the kids on that educational trip around the world I've dreamed of.

Sometimes I think cultures that practice arranged marriages are on to something. I realize that's not likely to be a popular view.

 

8 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

I don’t think churches or parents should teach either to marry young or older.

See above. It was Peechydoodle that I was responding to.

[PeachyDoodle]

1 minute ago, Storygirl said:

 

See above. It was Peechydoodle that I was responding to.

And you're misunderstanding what I mean when I say holding marriage as an expectation for young adults reaching maturity. My experience has been the attitude of the church in general matches the attitude of society, which is that marriage is something to think about AFTER you've checked all the other boxes, and until then you aren't ready. As if we are scared of it somehow. And as a result our young people are scared of it.

This isn't about making anybody feel "less than" if they are or aren't married by a certain age but about cultivating a culture in which marriage isn't DIScouraged for those who are fully capable of entering into the estate. I personally think that "falling in love" is overrated and also a false expectation for what makes a good marriage.

But, as I said, I didn't intend to hijack Scarlett's thread, so I'm not going to continue this conversation here. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

[Storygirl]

Okay, I see what you mean now. I haven't attended churches that discourage marriage in that way, but perhaps some have.

I appreciate you not wanting to hijack Scarlet's thread, but I don't like feeling like you want the last word and hope that I will stop responding. You have said a lot about this topic in this thread, and it's really okay for me to respond to it.

[Scarlett]

This thread is long past the point of it so no need to stop posting regardless of the twists and turns.  I like reading people’s different opinions.  

I have a niece who has been living with her boyfriend for at least two years.  And having sex before that.  She is about 22 as is he.  I don’t understand that.  They got engaged in December and plan to get marrried in summer of 2020! 

[PeachyDoodle]

15 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

Okay, I see what you mean now. I haven't attended churches that discourage marriage in that way, but perhaps some have.

I appreciate you not wanting to hijack Scarlet's thread, but I don't like feeling like you want the last word and hope that I will stop responding. You have said a lot about this topic in this thread, and it's really okay for me to respond to it.

I think you're projecting for some reason. I don't want the last word. I suggested that we make a new thread if you want to continue to discuss. Although I'm not sure I have much more to say.

[Scarlett]

I went to the shower. Dss was working and dh and ds wouldn’t go. But there was a big crowd.  Probably 75 people at least.  

 

[Catwoman]

23 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I went to the shower. Dss was working and dh and ds wouldn’t go. But there was a big crowd.  Probably 75 people at least.  

 

 

I’m glad to hear that people showed up after all. It would have been terrible if only a few people showed up when so many had been invited.

[moonflower]

14 hours ago, Scarlett said:

This thread is long past the point of it so no need to stop posting regardless of the twists and turns.  I like reading people’s different opinions.  

I have a niece who has been living with her boyfriend for at least two years.  And having sex before that.  She is about 22 as is he.  I don’t understand that.  They got engaged in December and plan to get marrried in summer of 2020! 

 

My sister was the same; they lived together for years and then had a long engagement once they were engaged.

For them, the living together was because A. NYC is super expensive to live separately (like, they share a small 1 bed for $1500!) and B. they aren't religious so no particular moral injunction.

the long engagement was to save money for the wedding.  They had a not expensive wedding, but it was still expensive for 2 people living on not very much income in NYC.  My mom is not rich and was not going to pay for it, and neither were his parents, so they saved for quite a while (and budgeted!)

[moonflower]

Dh and I were engaged when I was 17 (secretly we'd been engaged since I was much younger, but officially at 17); we didn't marry until I was 21, after I had our first daughter and no longer qualified for my mom's health insurance anyway.  We also were not religious; we don't believe in having sex with more than once person in one's lifetime but we knew quite early that we were it for each other and the marriage (to us, at the time) was just a formality.

[MistyMountain]

I remember you posting about this couple before. I personally think it is a horrible decision of the parents to allow this. I get a 17 year old making a poor decision but not the parents allowing her to date a man that old that is immature and cannot even find a job with enough hours. Why would they marry when he has does not have a job that can support them and he is just mooching off someone who is already done and ready to kick him out. He has no sense of urgency about getting an adequate job for his plans to marry. That is unlikely to change about him. She will grow up and mature and he very unlikely will not mature much more since he is already in his mid 20s. She most likely will end up stuck in a bad situation since I am guessing divorce is frowned upon. I wish more states had the age of consent at 18 but allowing a close  in age differential for those underage. This is a train wreck waiting to happen. I really feel for the situation this girl in this situation down the line when she grows up and realizes what a bad idea it was.

Edited February 17, 2019 by MistyMountain

[Scarlett]

Well the wedding is done. My dh, and my boys would not  go.  Ds’s girlfriend and I went together. There was a huge crowd.....so that is good.  Few of that crowd were from our town/congregation.

When I got home I told my husband and sons that a guest had stood up during the ceremony and said ‘I object!  This girl is too young and the groom is too old for her!’.  And the groom said, ‘ but I love her’. And the minister shrugged and said, ‘What are ya gonna do?’’

The funniest part is that my family bought that.....it didn’t happen of course.  

Now I just wish them the best. 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Jean in Newcastle

[Scarlett]

10 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Wait wait, you just randomly lied to them to make a point? That’s so inappropriate....?

 

I’m glad the wedding went well and hope they’re happy and have a wonderful life.  But I’m really stuck on the completely needless deception.  That’s sinful behavior and something I know isn’t acceptable in your church.  Why on earth would you do that instead of just discussing what actually happened in a supportive, honest way?

Hey I posted late and maybe I wasn’t clear but it was a 15 second joke not a deception.  It was funny to all of us because it is sums up the bizarre way all of this has unfolded and how so many people feel about it.  

Up until Friday afternoon they had no place to live.  It has been like watching an episode of the twi light zone.  I feel sorry for this girl having to start her married life out with such fear and uncertainty.  But I do wish them well. 

[unsinkable]

32 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Hey I posted late and maybe I wasn’t clear but it was a 15 second joke not a deception.  It was funny to all of us because it is sums up the bizarre way all of this has unfolded and how so many people feel about it.  

Up until Friday afternoon they had no place to live.  It has been like watching an episode of the twi light zone.  I feel sorry for this girl having to start her married life out with such fear and uncertainty.  But I do wish them well. 

Ah, ah, ah...

A lie is a lie! Is a lie is a lie!

You can joke without telling lies, can't you? Hmmmm?

[hippiemamato3]

36 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Hey I posted late and maybe I wasn’t clear but it was a 15 second joke not a deception.  It was funny to all of us because it is sums up the bizarre way all of this has unfolded and how so many people feel about it.  

Up until Friday afternoon they had no place to live.  It has been like watching an episode of the twi light zone.  I feel sorry for this girl having to start her married life out with such fear and uncertainty.  But I do wish them well. 

Did they get an apartment? That's great!

[Scarlett]

42 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

Ah, ah, ah...

A lie is a lie! Is a lie is a lie!

You can joke without telling lies, can't you? Hmmmm?

Am I suppose to say Got Me?

I  Don’t consider a joke to be a lie. If someone else does I guess they should not do it. 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Scarlett
Clarity

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, hippiemamato3 said:

Did they get an apartment? That's great!

No a friend of friend is letting them live in a house they own for utilities only. It is in another city about 45 min from his job. And her parents. And she doesn’t have a car. 

[hippiemamato3]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

No a friend of friend is letting them live in a house they own for utilities only. It is in another city about 45 min from his job. And her parents. And she doesn’t have a car. 

That might actually be a good thing. They can focus on their relationship, and being grown ups, and not be so dependent on her parents. 

[Scarlett]

Just now, hippiemamato3 said:

That might actually be a good thing. They can focus on their relationship, and being grown ups, and not be so dependent on her parents. 

Yes it could be. It will be interesting to see how this works out. She works with her mom. 

[HomeAgain]

3 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

That might actually be a good thing. They can focus on their relationship, and being grown ups, and not be so dependent on her parents. 

Or red flag.
Immediately not having access and being without transportation can create an unhealthy dynamic between the couple, with power on his side.

I hope for their sake it works out or she finds out quickly how to stand as an adult.