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4 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

This isn't personal for me. I like Scarlett and I've defended her and had her back in dozens of threads they the years. I thought she liked me but as of today, reading her replies to me, I think I was mistaken. 

ANyway...It is about lying. And why in some situations lies are OK and not even really lies. And the only explanation  is the "You Do You" argument.

And I never said telling a joke like that was considered a lie in my family. The whole family thing came up as part of the "You Do You" response. 

 

Well, honestly, I think when it comes to white lies, pranks, and jokes...it is just that sort of that situation. 🤷‍♀️ I mean, as far as I understand the argument I personally would never, unsolicited, tell someone their earrings look pretty if I didn't think they did (it wouldn't occur to me to do so, and it would be weird that I would make that up), but I also would joke and have joked with my family in the way that Scarlett is talking about. So I think I must be missing a lot of context because I still don't understand why it's any big deal for someone to think one is lying and one is not and then say, basically, agree to disagree, you do you, I do me.

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47 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

This isn't about my family and the jokes we tell or don't tell.

it is about people who think nothing of calling out liars but then do something that I see lying. And that no one has given me a good reason or explanation why it isn't lying..except *you do you. Whatever works for your family*

Which isn't an explanation about why lying to tell a joke is OK. Or it isn't a lie to begin with.

 

 

Look, if you don't like what Scarlet said in some other discussion, that's fine.  I don't really care and I didn't see it.

But to say that a joke like this is a lie that will dissolve family trust is just a little off - it's not accurate, and it's really not very similar at all to the scenario you are referring to.  You are bringing something really unrelated into a discussion where it doesn't make much sense.

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11 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Look, if you don't like what Scarlet said in some other discussion, that's fine.  I don't really care and I didn't see it.

But to say that a joke like this is a lie that will dissolve family trust is just a little off - it's not accurate, and it's really not very similar at all to the scenario you are referring to.  You are bringing something really unrelated into a discussion where it doesn't make much sense.

Someone else called Scarlett's joke about the wedding as akin to an April Fool's prank. To which I replied: "Do you know some people are highly offended by pranks, tricks, April Fool's jokes bc they feel it erodes their trust in the prankster?" So, I didn't start the comparison, nor did I extend it to Scarlett's family not trusting her bc of her joke. 

I didn't say a joke like Scarlett's will dissolve family trust.

If a joke is based on trying to convince someone that something happened that didn't happen (Someone stood up in the church and said...), how is the set up not a lie? 

It is not the truth, right? 

This has nothing to do with me or my family or my jokes...it is a pretty simple question. I know I lie. I've said it...I lie to cashiers...But I'm not seeing how the set up to the joke is not a lie. And I'm not seeing why it is OK to tell that lie (to make someone laugh) but not OK to lie to cheer up a cashier. 

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31 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Well, honestly, I think when it comes to white lies, pranks, and jokes...it is just that sort of that situation. 🤷‍♀️ I mean, as far as I understand the argument I personally would never, unsolicited, tell someone their earrings look pretty if I didn't think they did (it wouldn't occur to me to do so, and it would be weird that I would make that up), but I also would joke and have joked with my family in the way that Scarlett is talking about. So I think I must be missing a lot of context because I still don't understand why it's any big deal for someone to think one is lying and one is not and then say, basically, agree to disagree, you do you, I do me.

 

Because the joke is based on a lie. Am I the only one who sees that? 

No one stood up in the church and said....I protest or whatever.

This is the same concept as the other thread...people tell lies for different reasons (social lubricant, I think someone said) but they are lies. 

How is this joke (social lubricant) that was based on something that didn't happen NOT a lie? 

I don't care whose family tells what jokes...

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13 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

 

Because the joke is based on a lie. Am I the only one who sees that? 

No one stood up in the church and said....I protest or whatever.

This is the same concept as the other thread...people tell lies for different reasons (social lubricant, I think someone said) but they are lies. 

How is this joke (social lubricant) that was based on something that didn't happen NOT a lie? 

I don't care whose family tells what jokes...

You're not that only one who sees that. Just like Scarlett isn't the only one who doesn't see it that way. I think some people characterize sarcasm, pranks, and jokes differently than lies. Just like people characterize untrue compliments or flattery as different than outright lies. I don't think it matters much who characterizes which thing which way even if someone is very dogmatic about one and not so much about the other. I don't understand why there is this importance of getting someone to admit to something that has some ambiguity across family cultural lines. Like if she said, "Okay, technically, yes this was a lie, but it was a joke and well-recieved," what difference does that make?

Technically, I would say telling a story that didn't happen is a lie. In the context of a joke it is different though. It's like in Goodwill Hunting where he says, "That never happened to you!" "Yes, but it's a joke! It works better in first person!"

 

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4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I have seen no sign of abuse or control.  Quite the opposite....he seems to missing something...

Last night our family was discussing it....and I said, 'well I would not want the stress of not knowing where I was going to live even if I did get a free place in the end'  My 17 year old summed it up well, 'He is missing something. The part of a normal person's brain that say, 'Oh No!  This is very concerning and stressful!'  he doesn't have that.  It is totally missing from his brain.'

Maybe he is just very, very faithful and knows that God will provide?

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9 minutes ago, EmseB said:

You're not that only one who sees that. Just like Scarlett isn't the only one who doesn't see it that way. I think some people characterize sarcasm, pranks, and jokes differently than lies. Just like people characterize untrue compliments or flattery as different than outright lies. I don't think it matters much who characterizes which thing which way even if someone is very dogmatic about one and not so much about the other. I don't understand why there is this importance of getting someone to admit to something that has some ambiguity across family cultural lines. Like if she said, "Okay, technically, yes this was a lie, but it was a joke and well-recieved," what difference does that make?

Technically, I would say telling a story that didn't happen is a lie. In the context of a joke it is different though. It's like in Goodwill Hunting where he says, "That never happened to you!" "Yes, but it's a joke! It works better in first person!"

 

As to the bolded: Then she would be being honest! she would be an honest liar.

Is the story a lie? yes or no? 

It is just that easy. 

It is not seeing something one way or another.

I lied to compliment someone. 

Scarlett lied to tell a joke.

I can say, yes, I lied. 

To the best of my knowledge, Scarlett has not said she lied, even within the context of a joke.

 

 

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1 hour ago, EmseB said:

Well, honestly, I think when it comes to white lies, pranks, and jokes...it is just that sort of that situation. 🤷‍♀️ I mean, as far as I understand the argument I personally would never, unsolicited, tell someone their earrings look pretty if I didn't think they did (it wouldn't occur to me to do so, and it would be weird that I would make that up), but I also would joke and have joked with my family in the way that Scarlett is talking about. So I think I must be missing a lot of context because I still don't understand why it's any big deal for someone to think one is lying and one is not and then say, basically, agree to disagree, you do you, I do me.

Yeah ... I'm with you on both ... I think people just draw the line on "white lies" in a different place.  I normally don't tell them, but if it was that or outright insulting someone, I'd go with the white lie.  Some are much more ready to tell a white lie.  I'm not a good liar, so I would feel too awkward and I'd feel like the person being "complimented" would know I was full of it.  So then it would be more like mocking them than complimenting them.  But that's me.  If it feels natural and one really thinks the world will be a better place if they say an ugly accessory is beautiful, I can agree to disagree.  Personally I think a genuine smile and thank you or a genuine compliment or even "have a great day" can do just as much good without a fib.  But again - no biggie.

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2 hours ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Hey, I’ve been known to gush (convincingly) over ugly brides and babies.    😁

“She’s breathtaking!” 

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2 hours ago, PeachyDoodle said:

If you can find a place where I called you a liar, I will gladly apologize.

I don't recall that conversation at all, and I don't appreciate being lumped in with some other group you're ticked off at because I said I don't think a joke equates to a lie.

I still don't think a joke is the same as a LIE, and I still think Scarlett's prank on her family was funny. So sue me.

I'm not going to continue this absolutely ridiculous conversation but you can feel free to PM me if you find the place that I called you a liar want to cash in on that apology.

First of all, I said "maybe even you" so I wasn't lumping you in, hence the maybe. 

The joke was based on a lie. You can say it, not say it...it doesnt matter: no one protested at the wedding. 

I dont care who thinks what is funny but I do care about appplying differing standards to oneself and others.It is not about whether the joke was funny, not funny, family standards. etc...

 

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2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

You do you and I will do me.

But of course I would never believe a compliment from you. I mean not that you plan on giving me one..,but I would assume you actually mean the opposite.  

How would you feel if I said:

"I'd never believe anything you told me" based on things you shared here? 

That is a pretty hurtful statement, by you,  after all these years, bc I tell cashiers I like their earrings. 

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5 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

First of all, I said "maybe even you" so I wasn't lumping you in, hence the maybe. 

The joke was based on a lie. You can say it, not say it...it doesnt matter: no one protested at the wedding. 

I dont care who thinks what is funny but I do care about appplying differing standards to oneself and others.It is not about whether the joke was funny, not funny, family standards. etc...

 

Rarely, if ever, when I tell a joke of any kind, did the joke itself actually happen. I don't think most people consider jokes lies. But no one here is insisting that you do or don't. Your insistence on this one point is a little weird. If you think Scarlett lied to her family and she thinks she was joking around with themin a way that they all understand as a joke, it really doesn't matter. Almost all jokes are technically lies or based on lies.

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28 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

As to the bolded: Then she would be being honest! she would be an honest liar.

Is the story a lie? yes or no? 

It is just that easy. 

It is not seeing something one way or another.

I lied to compliment someone. 

Scarlett lied to tell a joke.

I can say, yes, I lied. 

To the best of my knowledge, Scarlett has not said she lied, even within the context of a joke.

 

 

She said that it happened and then said that it didn't and she made it up, IIRC from her original post about it. I don't know how much clearer she could be except you want her to specifically say  "lied". She was honest about it, I don't think she ever tried to insist that what she said happened actually happened.

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17 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Rarely, if ever, when I tell a joke of any kind, did the joke itself actually happen. I don't think most people consider jokes lies. But no one here is insisting that you do or don't. Your insistence on this one point is a little weird. If you think Scarlett lied to her family and she thinks she was joking around with themin a way that they all understand as a joke, it really doesn't matter. Almost all jokes are technically lies or based on lies.

I'll add "weird", to "off" and "compulsive liar" 

Edited bc I forgot the *compulsive*

Edited by unsinkable
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1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

You have had my back and I thought you liked me fine until today too. I do feel this has become personal because you and Cat are determined to paint me as a liar.  I don't know why this can't just be something we disagree on.  

 

But it wasn’t personal when you painted unsinkable, me, and others as liars for occasionally fibbing to a cashier about liking her earrings?

Because it sure felt like you were judging anyone who tells a fib, even when they do it to brighten someone’s day. You said it wasn’t harmless. You said it was wrong. You said you would never do such a thing, so that certainly made it seem like you thought less of us and that you were morally superior to us.

And then you said right here on this thread that not only would you never believe a compliment from unsinkable, but that you would assume that she meant the opposite. That was really low, Scarlett. Unsinkable has had your back and defended you more times than I can count. But because she’s nice to cashiers and sometimes pays them a little false compliment to cheer them up if they are having a bad day, that makes her such a liar and a terrible person that you would never trust anything she says ever again, and you would automatically assume she had bad intentions if she said something nice??? Seriously??? 

Wow. 

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8 minutes ago, DawnM said:

Sometimes it is just nice to say something nice.image.png.01f149678d05a0e3d0adeb78c6454006.png

one of my favorite TV quotes:

"It's nice to be nice to the nice." Frank Burns, M*A*S*H*

I know his quote is different (in fact and intention) bc he was such a kissa** blowhard. But it makes me LOL

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24 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

I’m not speaking to any one poster - 

I didn’t comment on the lie to get Scarlett dogpiled.  It was just shocking to me that a needless untruth would get dropped in there, and I didn’t have the context that it was apparently an obvious joke everyone was in on.

We are the family that doesn’t do Santa, because they feels like lying to our kids and having them believe in a person we know doesn’t exist, participating in an active fiction. And we all remember the thread about my husband lying and concealing pornography use from a few weeks ago, and that the lie was more damaging than the behavior (positive note - we are doing much better!).  

All this to say, clearly some people have differing standards on this and when it is okay to lie or not.  Mine are personally very consistent and strict.  Arguably Scarlett’s are a less consistent, as evidenced here.  But I think opinions have been aired all around and it might be worth moving back to the topic of the wedding and off of moral behavior.  I really didn’t intend this to derail the whole thread 😞

 

You always seem like a very honest person, and I always respect you for that, even when we disagree. 🙂

I think you clarified what a few of us have been trying to point out here. It’s not about Scarlett telling a fib as part of a joke or about her secretly installing a keylogger on her dh’s computer so she could spy on him. I don’t object to either of those things! It’s the inconsistency. She’s judging others’ fibs as being harmful and hinting that those people are not to be trusted, yet excusing her own behavior as harmless and acting like she is completely honest and trustworthy.

And this is off-topic, but I’m happy to hear that things are going much better with your dh! (Scarlett probably doesn’t believe me, what with me being such a liar and all, but you know I mean it, right? 😀)

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I would say the line that seems important to me in the case of a joke like this is that there is essentially only a moment when the people involved actually believe the thing in question is real, or might be real.  It's generally something that is quite absurd once you have thought about it for a moment.

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3 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

You always seem like a very honest person, and I always respect you for that, even when we disagree. 🙂

I think you clarified what a few of us have been trying to point out here. It’s not about Scarlett telling a fib as part of a joke or about her secretly installing a keylogger on her dh’s computer so she could spy on him. I don’t object to either of those things! It’s the inconsistency. She’s judging others’ fibs as being harmful and hinting that those people are not to be trusted, yet excusing her own behavior as harmless and acting like she is completely honest and trustworthy.

And this is off-topic, but I’m happy to hear that things are going much better with your dh! (Scarlett probably doesn’t believe me, what with me being such a liar and all, but you know I mean it, right? 😀)

That's the thing...I see so much inconsistency among posts (posters) about what is a lie...and I dont know the reason. But things like: all babies are beautiful, you'd never tell a 5 yo his gift was ugly, it was joke)...but the same people are pointing out the "liars" (who already admit they are lying) as *less than.* 

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6 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Cat and Unsinkable - Yeah, I got that and see inconsistency too.  But I’m someone who would compliment the hat or the earrings and find something truthful and lovely to say because making the person happy is worth it.  I don’t see it as a lie to say “you look awesome in those earrings!” even if I wouldn’t wear them myself, but I admit I am actually pretty cognizant of the phrasing I use in compliments to keep them sincere. 

Lies of omission are tricky because sometimes it is critical to keep something secret for safety, like hiding Jews in Ukraine or Germany during WWII.  However that doesn’t make it less of a lie to say to an official “I have no Jews here”, but it may still be the right choice and God can sort that one out.  A woman being abused or cheated on trying to keep financials from a husband or figure out what he is doing on the computer... might be necessary.  But it is definitely deception.  

I guess I believe we all have some inconsistency because none of us are perfect.  But I do question how highly someone holds truth as a goal if they’re consistently holding *themselves* to a lower standard than other people in this area.  That’s hypocrisy, and something I do think we should try to avoid.  That whole lie thread was a headache and a half!


In my job I have to keep things secret all the time.  I am sure others have to do the same.  I don't consider not revealing what I am not allowed to reveal, a lie.  

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16 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

I would say the line that seems important to me in the case of a joke like this is that there is essentially only a moment when the people involved actually believe the thing in question is real, or might be real.  It's generally something that is quite absurd once you have thought about it for a moment.

But like I asked before...is it just a matter of time? Like it is fine to lie to your family when telling a joke if it *essentially only a moment*? 

so how long can the joke go on for before it becomes problematic?

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Well a whole category of humor (maybe more than one category) requires briefly suspended belief in what is not true. 

And I think humor is a really important thing to have in our lives.

(My favorite is when a stand-up comedian says "but seriously" and the whole crowd gets quiet like he's really going to say something serious.  It's funny!)

I believe humans in most cultures implicitly agree to be lied to in this context.

But then again, I let my kids believe in Santa when they were little, so ....

Edited by SKL
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Ok well it is good to know you people think I am inconsistent and hold myself to a lower standard than I do others. 

I don’t . I think it is wrong for ANYONE to volunteer an insincere compliment. I don’t think it is wrong for ANYONE to tell a joke. 

I am sorry Sink I hurt you by saying I wouldn’t believe a compliment from you . I still can’t wrap my head around knowing when I could believe I compliment from someone who unabashedly admitted they hand out false ones. 

If anyone thinks I am a untrustworthy person because I put a keylogger on my husbands laptop then I would have to say we would never be friends anyway. 

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14 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

But like I asked before...is it just a matter of time? Like it is fine to lie to your family when telling a joke if it *essentially only a moment*? 

so how long can the joke go on for before it becomes problematic?

 

Well, look, as far as I can see would every joke would be a lie, because it's a fiction, right?  In fact, all fictions would be lies,  parables, many examples in books to help people understand situations.  Fake biographies would really be lies, even ones written by squares.  Well's radio broadcast of War of the Worlds would be a lie.

But they aren't lies, that is to misunderstand their genre - rather, they are poetry.  Humour, even spoken humour, even humour that is only directed to one other person and is very personal, comes under the rules of literature.  If they are done well, and work, what they reveal is not the bare facts of some situation, but some other kind of truth - an emotional truth, or psychological, or maybe even a historical truth, in a way that is clearer than just saying the thing straight out.  That is why political and social humour can be so revealing - because it turns the truth of a situation on its head a bit, in a way that is surprising, but in such a way that it actually lets us look a bit deeper or gain a new insight.

There isn't any intent to deceive, on the contrary, it's supposed to create a kind of illumination. 

Edited by Bluegoat
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4 hours ago, unsinkable said:

We're not talking about fiction, TV shows, comedies, stand-up...everyone enters into that knowing the fiction. 

This is a family situation, with relationships based on truth and trust (supposed ly). Just like social situations are, too. 

So the only difference I see is that the joking liar tells the truth faster than the complimentary liar.

 

6 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Well, look, as far as I can see would every joke would be a lie, because it's a fiction, right?  In fact, all fictions would be lies,  parables, many examples in books to help people understand situations.  Fake biographies would really be lies, even ones written by squares.  Well's radio broadcast of War of the Worlds would be a lie.

But they aren't lies, that is to misunderstand their genre - rather, they are poetry.  Humour, even spoken humour, even humour that is only directed to one other person and is very personal, comes under the rules of literature.  If they are done well, and work, what they reveal is not the bare facts of some situation, but some other kind of truth - an emotional truth, or psychological, or maybe even a historical truth, in a way that is clearer than just saying the thing straight out.  That is why political and social humour can be so revealing - because it turns the truth of a situation on its head a bit, in a way that is surprising, but in such a way that it actually lets us look a bit deeper or gain a new insight.

There isn't any intent to deceive, on the contrary, it's supposed to create a kind of illumination. 

 

I said that we enter into things like comedies and stand-ups and TV shows with the understanding that it is fiction four hours ago.

But like I asked, in regard to family or social situations: 

...is it just a matter of time? Like it is fine to lie to your family when telling a joke if it *essentially only a moment*? 

so how long can the joke go on for before it becomes problematic?

I don't need an answer. I just wanted to point out that hours ago I made the distinction between "art" being a lie and social and family situations

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21 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Ok well it is good to know you people think I am inconsistent and hold myself to a lower standard than I do others. 

I don’t . I think it is wrong for ANYONE to volunteer an insincere compliment. I don’t think it is wrong for ANYONE to tell a joke. 

I am sorry Sink I hurt you by saying I wouldn’t believe a compliment from you . I still can’t wrap my head around knowing when I could believe I compliment from someone who unabashedly admitted they hand out false ones. 

If anyone thinks I am a untrustworthy person because I put a keylogger on my husbands laptop then I would have to say we would never be friends anyway. 

 

No one has said that. 

The point is that by your own standards of “Truth,” YOU are the one who should harshly judge the fact that you sneakily installed the keylogger on your dh’s computer as having been a dishonest thing to do. You LIED by omission, and if harmless fibs are bad, what you did to your ex was far worse because you intentionally deceived your own spouse. But you won’t acknowledge that, and you have always been proud of yourself for having been sneaky and having tricked him.

How is a fib to a cashier worse than that? You seem to believe that it is.

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45 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

 

 

I said that we enter into things like comedies and stand-ups and TV shows with the understanding that it is fiction four hours ago.

But like I asked, in regard to family or social situations: 

...is it just a matter of time? Like it is fine to lie to your family when telling a joke if it *essentially only a moment*? 

so how long can the joke go on for before it becomes problematic?

I don't need an answer. I just wanted to point out that hours ago I made the distinction between "art" being a lie and social and family situations

 

I think I pointed out posts ago that the type of joke Scarlett made would be problematic if it was not in her family culture to make jokes like that or possibly if she was doing it to be mean to those who didn't attend the wedding on principle. And, yeah, if she insisted it was true longer than a beat or kept insisting it was true even though I wasn't or told the story for any other reason than to be funny...then it would be problematic because that's not telling a joke to be funny, it's just lying. And there is a difference. If you don't regularly encounter this type of humor then it makes sense that it wouldn't make sense to you beyond just a lie for the sake of lying.

Edited by EmseB
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43 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

How is a fib to a cashier worse than that? You seem to believe that it is.

Maybe she does believe that it is. Isn't that her prerogative to hold various versions of lies in different categories? I mean, we all do, right?

ETA: Maybe because Scarlett is more dogmatic and blunt about what she thinks than most of us? I still don't understand this idea with picking apart Scarlett's personal pyramid of acceptable and unacceptable lies and why she is wrong about which is which. We all disagree on a lot of these points.

Edited by EmseB
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3 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Maybe she does believe that it is. Isn't that her prerogative to hold various versions of lies in different categories? I mean, we all do, right?

Yes. Yes we do.  As evidenced by the many posts on the subject.  I don’t think putting a keylogger on my husbands computer for the purpose of protecting my self is even wrong much less a lie.  I think that a lie by omission requires that the person you aren’t telling has a right to know.  He had no right to know I was gathering evidence to protect myself and our son from his abuse. 

As I said in the other thread there are sooooo many ways to brighten a cashiers day without saying ‘your earrings are beautiful ‘ while you are thinking how ugly they are.  

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2 hours ago, unsinkable said:

First of all, I said "maybe even you" so I wasn't lumping you in, hence the maybe. 

The joke was based on a lie. You can say it, not say it...it doesnt matter: no one protested at the wedding. 

I dont care who thinks what is funny but I do care about appplying differing standards to oneself and others.It is not about whether the joke was funny, not funny, family standards. etc...

 

I told you I'm not doing this.

I have no idea what "other thread" you all have such a bee in your bonnets about. I must not have read it. Thank God.

Your cop-out about "maybe" is completely disingenuous, and your previous comments were uncalled for. I have done precisely NOTHING to you. Ever.

You can call it a lie all you want. I really couldn't care less what you think about the finer details of truth-telling and falsehood. My comment about the prank was in the context of the joke Scarlett told her own family and has nothing to do with how some other random people MIGHT feel about pranks. It did not address you and you completely overreacted to it.

I generally agree with most of what you say, but you have crossed a personal line here. I'm blocking you now.

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