Employment Question. What Would You Do?

[Reefgazer]

The college where I teach will be instituting new faculty evaluation procedures.  Pass rates of classes I teach will now be factored into the evaluation, with only A, B, and C considered passing; D, F, and withdraws are counted as failures on the part of the instructor.  For the purposes of this discussion, assume that pass rates will not change unless tests are made easier, a curve is put on final grades, or tests are eliminated in favor of other evaluations that require no memory/embedded knowledge.  If pass rates don't increase, my employment contract is at risk.  What would you do?

[EmseB]

How badly do you need the job?

Is there any chance other instructors would sign a letter of protest with you? Would that do any good?

This is just really disconcerting. This is not how a university is supposed to function. It does a disservice to students.

[Reefgazer]

Just now, EmseB said:

How badly do you need the job?

Is there any chance other instructors would sign a letter of protest with you? Would that do any good?

This is just really disconcerting. This is not how a university is supposed to function. It does a disservice to students.

I need the job; not desperately, but I need it.

I don't know if others would sign a protest letter; my sense is they would be afraid to rock the boat for their jobs because most rely on their income to pay core bills.  It would not do any good.  Another local college recently fired a professor for a low pass rate in chemistry, and a replacement who would pass the students was onboard in no time.

 

[Reefgazer]

3 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

Be angry would be my answer. But that’s no help. Wow. I’m sorry. That’s a no win situation for you. 

The college has been up the ass of the science department for a while to increase their pass rates.  They seem to want pass rates in chemistry that are comparable to pass rates in history courses. 

[EmseB]

2 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

I need the job; not desperately, but I need it.

I don't know if others would sign a protest letter; my sense is they would be afraid to rock the boat for their jobs because most rely on their income to pay core bills.  It would not do any good.  Another local college recently fired a professor for a low pass rate in chemistry, and a replacement who would pass the students was onboard in no time.

 

I don't know. I'd be inclined to start looking for another job, but if the climate is like that everywhere, I don't know. That really sucks. I guess I'd be having a conversation with anyone who would listen...why even have science as a required credit if you're just going to pass everyone who takes it?

More selfishly, all this makes me think is how are my kids going to find a good college???

[Reefgazer]

6 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I don't know. I'd be inclined to start looking for another job, but if the climate is like that everywhere, I don't know. That really sucks. I guess I'd be having a conversation with anyone who would listen...why even have science as a required credit if you're just going to pass everyone who takes it?

More selfishly, all this makes me think is how are my kids going to find a good college???

This was my question a few years ago when I started to see the trend toward required pass rates appear in our area.

[regentrude]

I would network with the other faculty and force a discussion with administration  so that they understand that it means lowering the standards. I'd be very vocal that it is in the best interest of the reputation of the college to deliver a rigorous instruction and not hand out grades. Whether that leads to anything, I don't know. Is it clear how heavily this will affect faculty evals(you said it will be one factor)?

We had at one time at our institution a blacklist of instructors whose DFW rates exceeded 25%. It was not entirely clear what exactly the consequences were for being on the list, but the administration kept score.

ETA: Do you have the benefit of any ABET accreditations that require certain standards to be upheld? Or are your standards completely up to the college? You have my sympathy.

Edited October 27, 2018 by regentrude

[Twolittleboys]

That really sucks...

However, if you are stuck with the job (or just enjoy it etc.) and are deciding what to do I would look at the problem more closely and see what feels the least invasive/like giving up:

Is the number of withdraws large enough to affect the outcome? If so, what is the reason for withdrawals and is there a way around them? E.g. if people withdraw for personal reasons, could that be taken out of the equation?

Do you feel your tests ARE maybe harder than they really need to be? Could the tests be changed so they are still challenging and require effort to do well but will have less bad grades? Would it be possible to limit the scope of material for a text somewhat and concentrate more on the crucial elements?

Or would other kinds of evaluation work? Clearly, it is crucial that students understand the material but some ways of testing may not work so well for them (e.g. my son doesn't really have a flair for writing essays and so might not do very well in a test that requires a lot of writing about a subject even if he knows the important facts).

Or would you rather grade on a curve? Everything else would stay the same and just the meaning of grades would change e.g. I live overseas and here we have grades from 1-6; 1s are generally quite rare. There are usually some 2s but mostly 3s and 4s. Less 5s and 6s which are pretty much failing. In contrast the US uses less different grades. Depending on how you adjust the grading you could have As as good-very good, Bs as average to okay, and have Cs be more like Ds. It would look good on paper but doesn't change the difficulties. A C would just be a "worse" grade than now and after a while people would become aware of it.

All this is not to say you should do one of the above or that your current way of doing it isn't the best one. But if you want to keep the job AND have to adjust to this, I think it comes down to the lesser evil.

[Jean in Newcastle]

46 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

The college where I teach will be instituting new faculty evaluation procedures.  Pass rates of classes I teach will now be factored into the evaluation, with only A, B, and C considered passing; D, F, and withdraws are counted as failures on the part of the instructor.  For the purposes of this discussion, assume that pass rates will not change unless tests are made easier, a curve is put on final grades, or tests are eliminated in favor of other evaluations that require no memory/embedded knowledge.  If pass rates don't increase, my employment contract is at risk.  What would you do?

I know that you said to assume that pass rates won't change unless standards are lowered but is there really no way to incorporate some memory/ knowledge drill in classes and other ways to pull up grades?

[Frances]

34 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

The college has been up the ass of the science department for a while to increase their pass rates.  They seem to want pass rates in chemistry that are comparable to pass rates in history courses. 

That’s just crazy. My son used to TA for general chemistry. He said the instructor was amazing and tons of help was offered to students, even an option to live on a particular floor in a dorm where everyone was taking the course and a free tutor who had previously aced the course also lived on the floor. But still, one fourth to one third of the students did not pass (C or above) each term. The professor did not see this as a failure because the reality is that not everyone can handle major level science classes at the college level. It’s better for a student to discover that early in their college career.

You have my sympathy.

[Valley Girl]

Someone upthread asked why students were withdrawing. I'd wonder also what the main issue is with students who fail. Are they taking the class but unprepared in terms of math and science background? Are they all freshmen who are having trouble navigating college coursework? Are they finding the material too hard? Just goofing off?

If, say, they're coming into the course unprepared in terms of knowledge base, would the administration be open to your requiring students to pass a test just in order to take the class? Or be willing to offer some kind of pre-chem class for those who are most likely to struggle with the real thing? Document in writing every effort to assist/direct to tutoring struggling students to prove you offered help?  I'm not saying you or the school should HAVE to do those things. But if the alternative is dumbing down the course or penalizing an otherwise helpful, talented instructor for things outside his or her control, I'm not sure what else could be done.

[regentrude]

14 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I know that you said to assume that pass rates won't change unless standards are lowered but is there really no way to incorporate some memory/ knowledge drill in classes and other ways to pull up grades?

But that is lowering the standards. It means making getting a grade of A or B easier and requiring less subject mastery.

[regentrude]

IN addition to being aggressive with admin about this, I would also evaluate what programs the college has in place to aid student success.

For our introductory courses, we offer ten hours of free assistance each week  through "learning centers": we open two classrooms, put tutors and faculty in there, and students can come in, work on their homework, work in groups and on the board, tutors and profs apply Socratic methods. These are hugely popular; about half the students use them. We do ten hours of this for each of our intro courses (different times). Does you college have similar programs?

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Reefgazer said:

I don't know if others would sign a protest letter; my sense is they would be afraid to rock the boat for their jobs because most rely on their income to pay core bills.  It would not do any good. 

Does your college have tenured faculty? For them, there would be no risk in pursuing this aggressively. They can afford to care about standards.

[AmandaVT]

Would coming down harder in the very beginning of the semester help at all? A good friend of mine went to a very hard recording engineering program combined with a music major. In the very first week of the program, the professor began class by having everyone look around the class. He then told them that out of, I don't know, 30 kids, only 5 would successfully complete the program. It made everyone there think very hard about their ability to continue and only stay in if they thought they could handle the workload. 

 

If you did something similar, maybe more people would drop during the add/drop period that may have been a withdraw later in the semester. If you set expectations high right from the start, they could weed themselves out? 

[regentrude]

2 minutes ago, AmandaVT said:

Would coming down harder in the very beginning of the semester help at all?

If you did something similar, maybe more people would drop during the add/drop period that may have been a withdraw later in the semester. If you set expectations high right from the start, they could weed themselves out? 

OP, how long do students at your college have to drop without the W showing on their transcript? I assume these would not count towards the DFW rate?

One way to weed out students who are not putting in the work is to have a drop policy in the syllabus that lets you drop students if they have missed a certain number of classes (if you are taking attendance) or assignments (if you can't take attendance). I have a policy in my syllabus that students can be dropped if they miss more than 5 assignments. By front loading the course with assignments, you can have enough to be able to drop non attending students before the date when the Ws show.

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I know that you said to assume that pass rates won't change unless standards are lowered but is there really no way to incorporate some memory/ knowledge drill in classes and other ways to pull up grades?

That is phonics/grammar level instruction. Students in the uni system should be well into the rhetoric phase of their education. Any rote memorization that they need to do should be done on their own time, IMO. To incorporate it into classwork is lowering standards and holding everyone who is functioning at a college level back.

[SereneHome]

2 hours ago, Reefgazer said:

The college has been up the ass of the science department for a while to increase their pass rates.  They seem to want pass rates in chemistry that are comparable to pass rates in history courses. 

Lord help us all!

I was accounting major for my undergrad.  Professor who taught Intermediate Accounting I had about 30% passing rate.  She told us flat out - if you can't pass this class, you might want to consider a different major.  I barely got a C and was thrilled.  A friend of mine had a similar experience with one of his engineering classes.

Some classes are just harder than others and passing rate will be different.  What kind of college / university doesn't get that?

I can't tell you what I would do bc I am guessing looking for another job is not an option, but...I would look for another job.  This job is setting you up to fail.  In addition, it's not doing right by students either.

OK, now as I am typing all this and thinking more about it, I would actually be fighting this (if I could afford it).  And I would make it public knowledge as well bc this whole idea is wrong for professors and wrong for students!

 

[G5052]

I'm an adjunct (among other things) and provide most of the funds for us. I would be in a tailspin. My classes have a high flunk-out rate just because they stop turning in assignments. It's typical of online courses. I'd be hard pressed to pass more than I already do.

[Bluegoat]

Ugh, so they've already screwed up the humanities courses and now they want to screw up the sciences too.

My only thought that is different from what others have suggested is to go above the level where the decision is being made - a board of governors, alumni, even the media.

[katilac]

I would first give some honest consideration to whether there could possibly be intellectually honest ways to increase the pass rate. There is a lot of new research on learning and mastery - I know you said to assume that pass rates could not improve unless tests are made easier and so on, but I wouldn't make that assumption without a whole lot of investigating and brainstorming. I would definitely take a LONG look at new methods of teaching and whether research shows them to be effective. Experience is valuable but can also blind us. I know many teachers who are adamant that final grades should pretty much be the midterm and the final, but adding in low stakes quizzes and assignments has been shown to get more students to the finish line. The same finish line. 

Assuming I did all of that and still felt uncomfortable . . . what would I do? I'd probably keep my job. I'd regard my job as doing the best I can for my students under the restrictions placed upon me. Worrying about the overall reputation of the college is the job of other people. 

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

But that is lowering the standards. It means making getting a grade of A or B easier and requiring less subject mastery.

 

Why does it necessarily require less subject mastery? If you can demand the same level of mastery at the end of the course, do you still oppose doing memory work and such in class? If so, why? Sincere questions. 

[ktgrok]

Ugh, my thoughts are all over the place. To start with, I actually DID fail a chemistry class in college. I failed my second semester, like..if there was such thing as an F- I would have had it. I didn't understand a darned thing, and when I tried going to office hours for help the professor was just hanging out with the advanced students, and made no time for me. I retook it the next semester and got an A. A high A, nearly 100 percent. Only difference was I had a much better isntructor who actually taught the concepts well. I actually could understand all of it, and enjoyed it even!! In that situation, the pass rate of the two instructors probably DID reflect on their ability to teach. It wasn't that I lacked effort, or that I wasn't smart enough it was that I didn't have a strong enough background to overcome a complete lack of teaching. (my high school chem teacher hated chemistry and was supposed to teach biology. He got stuck with one period of it and just talked fishing with the boys in the front row. He did throw up an overhead every day for us to copy, that was it. 

On the other hand, my husband teaches at the college level and has kids who do 0 assignments the whole semester. One kid failed the class 4 times! My husband will do pretty much anything to help them pass, but they have to put the time and effort in. He can't do it for them. So in his case, those that are not doing anything and failing do not reflect on him. He actually has mostly either A's or F's, depending on if they do the work. 

[SamanthaCarter]

Parents need to know! 

[katilac]

32 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

If you're taking time out of lecture to go over memory work with students, that's less time you have to cover the subject at hand, for one. I would expect by college students would take notes, and seek out study groups, or tutoring or do whatever they needed to get to the mastery point if their studying on their own wasn't enough. I think you'd have to shave off a portion of what you plan to cover for the semester. And also, where does it end if the professor is suddenly responsible for the mastery? Do you wait to proceed until EVERYONE has an A and then only cover 1/4 of the content? What's the acceptable cut rate at that point, is the first things your question brings to mind. 

At some point the student has to become responsible for learning the content. The professor cannot, and should not do it for them. Once they have graduated it's not like an employer is going to hand hold them to mastery on a topic. I would be extremely pissed if I was paying a college to hand hold students to a point where they're reviewing things like memory work in a college level course. 

 

Even if reviewing memory work was shown to be effective in a certain class, bringing more students to the same level of mastery over the same amount of material? I'm not saying that would be the case in this particular instance, but I am saying that none of us should assume it would not be the case if we haven't investigated it. Low-stakes quizzes are a form of memory work that take up class time but have proven to get good results. It seems counter-intuitive but it also seems to work. I've read enough positive reports about it to not dismiss it out of hand by assuming I would have to cut material. I'd look for people who have done it successfully (increased pass rates without sacrificing material) and try to figure out what would and wouldn't work in my own class. 

I'm not saying that what this college wants is reasonable or that it can be done with high standards. I don't know enough about the specifics to state that either way, but I do know automatically assuming it's impossible to do in a worthy way might mean missing out on learning some new things myself. 

Regarding your last paragraph: I used to have a job that encompassed training staff. I promise you that I was held very much responsible for their success or failure! We were expected to find a way to get most of them to the finish line, whether that meant singing or dancing or holding their hands. I did training in three different states for two different organizations, and the expectations were the same: you're the trainer, make sure they're trained. No way could I say, well, boss, I presented the information and they ought to take the initiative to reach mastery on their own. If they didn't want to look at the material in between trainings (and I promise you they did not want to), then I was supposed to find ways to motivate them to do so. And I've not worked in that area for twenty years, so it's certainly not something new. 

[Frances]

40 minutes ago, katilac said:

I would first give some honest consideration to whether there could possibly be intellectually honest ways to increase the pass rate. There is a lot of new research on learning and mastery - I know you said to assume that pass rates could not improve unless tests are made easier and so on, but I wouldn't make that assumption without a whole lot of investigating and brainstorming. I would definitely take a LONG look at new methods of teaching and whether research shows them to be effective. Experience is valuable but can also blind us. I know many teachers who are adamant that final grades should pretty much be the midterm and the final, but adding in low stakes quizzes and assignments has been shown to get more students to the finish line. The same finish line. 

Assuming I did all of that and still felt uncomfortable . . . what would I do? I'd probably keep my job. I'd regard my job as doing the best I can for my students under the restrictions placed upon me. Worrying about the overall reputation of the college is the job of other people. 

 

Why does it necessarily require less subject mastery? If you can demand the same level of mastery at the end of the course, do you still oppose doing memory work and such in class? If so, why? Sincere questions. 

Adding to my previous post, for the intro chem course my son worked with the prof, the grad TA, and the my son were all part of a university wide STEM group that met weekly throughout the school year to discuss the leading research on teaching science and math classes. It was not mandatory, but the majority of teachers of these courses chose to participate. Even with implementing many of the methods, a certain percentage of students are not going to be able to pass real, major level science and math classes in college.

[Bootsie]

Is this policy coming at a departmental, college, or university level?  Or, is it coming from the state?  

Is your particular issue because you have a lot of students drop?  Have a lot of F's because students don't even show up for tests and turn in homework but never drop?  Or do you have a lot of poor performers receiving Ds?  How I would manage the situation would depend on those issues.

I was teaching at a state school which had great pressure being placed on it by the governor because of low graduation rates.  Faculty were facing the situation are in.  I taught a junior level class, but we had a lot of transfer students from a junior college who NEVER showed up for class and dropped a month into the semester.  Some of us had enough of those students alone that we would fall under the "too many DFWs"  We were responsible for motivating students we never had any contact with!  Of course professors teaching senior classes had these students weeded out, so their numbers looked better.  One semester I had a group of about 10 students who were found guilty of cheating--all receiving F's that hurt my pass rates greatly.

I got a new job at a different university.  After the first semester I was notified that my name was on the "highlighted list" for my class GPA--the new school had a list of prof's whose GPAs were higher than desired--I was giving harder exams at the new university but was considered "too easy" where at the previous university I was "too hard"  Standards really are different at different universities.  

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

47 minutes ago, texasmom33 said:

If you're taking time out of lecture to go over memory work with students, that's less time you have to cover the subject at hand, for one. I would expect by college students would take notes, and seek out study groups, or tutoring or do whatever they needed to get to the mastery point if their studying on their own wasn't enough. I think you'd have to shave off a portion of what you plan to cover for the semester. And also, where does it end if the professor is suddenly responsible for the mastery? Do you wait to proceed until EVERYONE has an A and then only cover 1/4 of the content? What's the acceptable cut rate at that point, is the first things your question brings to mind. 

At some point the student has to become responsible for learning the content. The professor cannot, and should not do it for them. Once they have graduated it's not like an employer is going to hand hold them to mastery on a topic. I would be extremely pissed if I was paying a college to hand hold students to a point where they're reviewing things like memory work in a college level course. 

But you are only proceeding until "enough people" have a C or above.  It didn't sound like a zero failure/withdrawal rate was being asked for.  And the cut off for that rate was a C, not an A. 

[Liz CA]

4 hours ago, Reefgazer said:

The college has been up the ass of the science department for a while to increase their pass rates.  They seem to want pass rates in chemistry that are comparable to pass rates in history courses. 

 

Which is bunk. Chemistry is inherently more difficult as it requires mathematical knowledge (and we all know how well the average American students are prepared for that), most likely more practice and involvement especially of those students who are not chemistry majors. Are you teaching a lower level chem class or higher? History, in many classes today, can be managed with a passing grade by reading and base-level analysis of events if even that beyond memorization.

[TechWife]

22 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

 Low-stakes quizzes are a form of memory work that take up class time but have proven to get good results.  my own class. 

I finished college nearly 30 years ago. We didn’t have “low stakes quizzes.” Some classes had a few tests, some had papers, some had a combination. The further along we were in our major studies, the fewer opportunities there were to earn grades in any given course.  We were responsible for synthesizing all of the information we were presented with and applying it to those few exams, papers and projects. It was hard and we did it anyway. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

At heart, this isn't a discussion about what a college/university SHOULD do with regard to standards, professor autonomy etc.  It is a discussion about what the OP should do to (presumably) keep her job in a way that still allows her to maintain some professional and educational standards even if she has to do some bending to meet administration goals.  The suggestions given with regard to alternate teaching practices are with that in mind. 

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, texasmom33 said:

If you're taking time out of lecture to go over memory work with students, that's less time you have to cover the subject at hand, for one. I would expect by college students would take notes, and seek out study groups, or tutoring or do whatever they needed to get to the mastery point if their studying on their own wasn't enough. I think you'd have to shave off a portion of what you plan to cover for the semester. And also, where does it end if the professor is suddenly responsible for the mastery? Do you wait to proceed until EVERYONE has an A and then only cover 1/4 of the content? What's the acceptable cut rate at that point, is the first things your question brings to mind. 

At some point the student has to become responsible for learning the content. The professor cannot, and should not do it for them. Once they have graduated it's not like an employer is going to hand hold them to mastery on a topic. I would be extremely pissed if I was paying a college to hand hold students to a point where they're reviewing things like memory work in a college level course. 

 

I think this is the way it may be going though.  I usually take part in a sort of book group in the Fall, that's run by a university professor - he retired last year.  One thing he mentioned when we started this year was how different the reading they could expect from the students was now.  No longer were they looking to read extra texts that were important or mentioned in class, they didn't read the class texts either - in many cases they needed to actually spend time reading the text for that day in class time.

[ktgrok]

Honestly, if most jobs require a college degree to get your resume looked at - even if the actual job requirement do NOT have anything to do with having a degree- then yes, we are going to need to make some way for MOST people to get a degree. That may mean that the basics are easier. Because college is no longer for the elite, it is for almost anyone. So unless that changes, college will have to. 

[Bluegoat]

26 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

 

Which is bunk. Chemistry is inherently more difficult as it requires mathematical knowledge (and we all know how well the average American students are prepared for that), most likely more practice and involvement especially of those students who are not chemistry majors. Are you teaching a lower level chem class or higher? History, in many classes today, can be managed with a passing grade by reading and base-level analysis of events if even that beyond memorization.

 

No, chemistry isn't inherently more difficult.  THey've just already done to the humanities what they are trying to do now in this college to the sciences.

[Bluegoat]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

Honestly, if most jobs require a college degree to get your resume looked at - even if the actual job requirement do NOT have anything to do with having a degree- then yes, we are going to need to make some way for MOST people to get a degree. That may mean that the basics are easier. Because college is no longer for the elite, it is for almost anyone. So unless that changes, college will have to. 

 

I see where you are coming from here, but I think it is not the way to go.  There needs to be push-back - universities still have a purpose in society that needs to be fulfilled, and people should not be forced to spend time and money on degrees that are unnecessary.  

[katilac]

29 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I finished college nearly 30 years ago. We didn’t have “low stakes quizzes.” Some classes had a few tests, some had papers, some had a combination. The further along we were in our major studies, the fewer opportunities there were to earn grades in any given course.  We were responsible for synthesizing all of the information we were presented with and applying it to those few exams, papers and projects. It was hard and we did it anyway. 

 

So, would you oppose low stakes quizzes even if they resulted in more students having the same level of mastery over the same material? 

[Reefgazer]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

I would network with the other faculty and force a discussion with administration  so that they understand that it means lowering the standards. I'd be very vocal that it is in the best interest of the reputation of the college to deliver a rigorous instruction and not hand out grades. Whether that leads to anything, I don't know. Is it clear how heavily this will affect faculty evals(you said it will be one factor)?

We had at one time at our institution a blacklist of instructors whose DFW rates exceeded 25%. It was not entirely clear what exactly the consequences were for being on the list, but the administration kept score.

ETA: Do you have the benefit of any ABET accreditations that require certain standards to be upheld? Or are your standards completely up to the college? You have my sympathy.

Answering several of your questions here, and I never did figure out how to multi-quote, so:

1.  There are ongoing discussions and protests about this and how it would decrease the reputation and integrity of the sciences, but there is state money attached to graduation rates (hence, pass rates), so it may be an uphill argument, especially if other area schools are doing the same.  The weight of the pass rate has not yet been determined, and I suppose there is still a chance it may be overturned.  There are no accreditations that uphold pass rates, so it's up to the college to decide this.

 

2.  The college has an abundance of student success tools, including free and unlimited tutoring, an entire department dedicated to student success, a task force dedicated to first year success (I was on this for quite some time), a SAILS warning system to flag students in danger of not passing for various reasons, referral to counseling, etc...  Most do not take advantage of the tools at their disposal, for various reasons.

 

3.  I work for a community college, so adjuncts here are on a contract basis from semester to semester.  The associate and full professors have contracts ranging from 1 year (new associate professors), to 3 years, 5 years, and 10 years for a full professor.  That's as close as we get to tenure.  One of my closest friends is a full professor with a 10 year contract, and I do not think there is anything here more secure than that.

 

4.  Students have 10 days to drop a class from the beginning of the semester; faculty here are *only* allowed to drop for non-attendance during that 10 day period.  In an online class only, not completing an assignment is equivalent to non-attendance.  Even if dropped for non-attendance, the last dean would sign them back in after they were dropped, do it was a worthless policy; the new dean is a bit better about supporting the faculty.  Enrollment has dropped precipitously at our multi-campus college, so they will do anything to keep a student, even a bad one that has little chance of success in the long run.

[Reefgazer]

4 hours ago, Twolittleboys said:

That really sucks...

However, if you are stuck with the job (or just enjoy it etc.) and are deciding what to do I would look at the problem more closely and see what feels the least invasive/like giving up:

Is the number of withdraws large enough to affect the outcome? If so, what is the reason for withdrawals and is there a way around them? E.g. if people withdraw for personal reasons, could that be taken out of the equation?

Do you feel your tests ARE maybe harder than they really need to be? Could the tests be changed so they are still challenging and require effort to do well but will have less bad grades? Would it be possible to limit the scope of material for a text somewhat and concentrate more on the crucial elements?

Or would other kinds of evaluation work? Clearly, it is crucial that students understand the material but some ways of testing may not work so well for them (e.g. my son doesn't really have a flair for writing essays and so might not do very well in a test that requires a lot of writing about a subject even if he knows the important facts).

Or would you rather grade on a curve? Everything else would stay the same and just the meaning of grades would change e.g. I live overseas and here we have grades from 1-6; 1s are generally quite rare. There are usually some 2s but mostly 3s and 4s. Less 5s and 6s which are pretty much failing. In contrast the US uses less different grades. Depending on how you adjust the grading you could have As as good-very good, Bs as average to okay, and have Cs be more like Ds. It would look good on paper but doesn't change the difficulties. A C would just be a "worse" grade than now and after a while people would become aware of it.

All this is not to say you should do one of the above or that your current way of doing it isn't the best one. But if you want to keep the job AND have to adjust to this, I think it comes down to the lesser evil.

My withdraw/fail rate is actually pretty good compared with the rest of the science department, and I have a variety of assessments, so I think I would be OK as long as I monitored my pass rate.  But after thinking it over, I am un-inclined to risk my job at all over this, honestly.  The reasons for withdraws are varied, but generally fall into 2 categories, unprepared for the rigors of college , or over-extended without enough time to study, neither of which I can really have an affect on.

[Reefgazer]

5 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I know that you said to assume that pass rates won't change unless standards are lowered but is there really no way to incorporate some memory/ knowledge drill in classes and other ways to pull up grades?

Every minute I spend on lower-level drills is a time I can not spend on content of the actual class.  That would cut into content time of the actual subject, and put capable students at a disadvantage when they try and take the knowledge they gained from my class and transfer it to a 4-year university; they should have a college-level degree/course to take with them.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Reefgazer

[DawnM]

Just now, Reefgazer said:

Every minute I spend on lower-level drills is a time I can not spend on content of the actual class.  That would cut into content time of the actual subject, and put capable students at a disadvantage when they try and take the knowledge they gained from my class and transfer it to a 4-year university; they would have a college-level challenge to take with them.

 

Does your school not differentiate between the two?  Both of my sons' colleges have "math for non-math majors" and "science for non-science majors" classes available.  And any of the higher level science and math classes require you to either have a certain grade in the prerequisite or take a test to get in.

I would think instituting that would help a lot.  (You probably don't want to know that one of my sons isn't even required to take a science course for his major!)

[Twolittleboys]

Okay, I do not work in this field at all but just a thought (probably not doable but you never know): Could something be done with the course offerings? I don't know what classes you teach but would it help if different classes were offered, a more introductory/easier one and one that is more advanced? Especially at a community college I could imagine that the level of ability of the students might differ quite a bit. Also, are all the students taking the class majoring in the subject? I think lowering standards seems less of a problem for a general requirement class.

[Reefgazer]

4 hours ago, Valley Girl said:

Someone upthread asked why students were withdrawing. I'd wonder also what the main issue is with students who fail. Are they taking the class but unprepared in terms of math and science background? Are they all freshmen who are having trouble navigating college coursework? Are they finding the material too hard? Just goofing off?

If, say, they're coming into the course unprepared in terms of knowledge base, would the administration be open to your requiring students to pass a test just in order to take the class? Or be willing to offer some kind of pre-chem class for those who are most likely to struggle with the real thing? Document in writing every effort to assist/direct to tutoring struggling students to prove you offered help?  I'm not saying you or the school should HAVE to do those things. But if the alternative is dumbing down the course or penalizing an otherwise helpful, talented instructor for things outside his or her control, I'm not sure what else could be done.

This would be the logical answer, wouldn't it?  Our A+P classes had such a high washout rate that first semester of A+P that the state finally instituted a pre-requisite for entry level A+P.  That was a major undertaking to getting that approved because the state kept insisting that a 100 level course could not be a pre-req for another 100 level A+P course.  So they put in a non-credit developmental class as a pre-req for first semester A+P.  As it turns out, it is not all that useful because 1) it doesn't solve the problem of students who are too over-extended in their lives in general to cope with college, and 2) it is not a lab course, and juggling lab and lecture is a major problem for weak students.  So A+P solved their problem of under-prepared students washing out of first semester A+P,  but now they pop into my class first and I have to deal with them (they used to come to me after A+P).

[TechWife]

3 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

So, would you oppose low stakes quizzes even if they resulted in more students having the same level of mastery over the same material? 

Frankly, yes. Generally speaking, students shouldn’t have the same level of mastery. They should all have mastery, but some should have a deeper level than others because they are smarter and/or more prepared. Those that come in ready to learn shouldn’t have to waste time on quizzes - they should be given the opportunity to learn to the extent their ability allows them to, not to the lowest common denominator. 

Additionally, There should not be a need for it in post secondary education. Those who require that level of hand holding in order to master material need to consider who or not they are in the right academic environment. To cater to this need only encourages secondary education to continue on its current path of hyper testing, IMO. If enough people flunk out of college a few things might happen, I think. First, the employers who are unnecessarily requiring college degress will stop doing so. Second, real vocational education will return to our high school and community colleges because both students and employers will demand it. Third, educrats might get a clue and figure out that they need to make real systemic changes to align the curriculum in such a way that a reasonable number of students are well prepared for the university environment. Do I think any of this will happen? No, not as long as education continues on the path of increasingly being a commodity and away from being an intellectual endeavor. We have a world class university system and moving towards a model where everyone has to pass without putting safeguards in place to make sure that only qualified, prepared students are in the university environment could surely ruin it. 

I will say this - the uni my son went to has to participate in a state wide initiative to get students to graduate on time. In order to do that , they changed their academic probation and suspension policy so that the students that can’t do the work or don’t want to do the work are weeded out fairly quickly. This allows them to have more resources for the students that should be there.  

[Reefgazer]

3 hours ago, G5052 said:

I'm an adjunct (among other things) and provide most of the funds for us. I would be in a tailspin. My classes have a high flunk-out rate just because they stop turning in assignments. It's typical of online courses. I'd be hard pressed to pass more than I already do.

I won't be hard-pressed if I just curve , but they would be turned into 4-year unis unprepared and it would degrade the A.S. degree they "earned".

Edited October 28, 2018 by Reefgazer

[Reefgazer]

2 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

Ugh, so they've already screwed up the humanities courses and now they want to screw up the sciences too.

My only thought that is different from what others have suggested is to go above the level where the decision is being made - a board of governors, alumni, even the media.

You would think people would be outraged at how their tax dollars are spent here (there are other issues, of course, just like at any public college), but I doubt it.  I am flat-out unwilling to risk my income with little hope of change once I take my stand.

[Reefgazer]

2 hours ago, katilac said:

I would first give some honest consideration to whether there could possibly be intellectually honest ways to increase the pass rate. There is a lot of new research on learning and mastery - I know you said to assume that pass rates could not improve unless tests are made easier and so on, but I wouldn't make that assumption without a whole lot of investigating and brainstorming. I would definitely take a LONG look at new methods of teaching and whether research shows them to be effective. Experience is valuable but can also blind us. I know many teachers who are adamant that final grades should pretty much be the midterm and the final, but adding in low stakes quizzes and assignments has been shown to get more students to the finish line. The same finish line. 

Assuming I did all of that and still felt uncomfortable . . . what would I do? I'd probably keep my job. I'd regard my job as doing the best I can for my students under the restrictions placed upon me. Worrying about the overall reputation of the college is the job of other people. 

 

Why does it necessarily require less subject mastery? If you can demand the same level of mastery at the end of the course, do you still oppose doing memory work and such in class? If so, why? Sincere questions. 

I currently have, in a very small class of 7 students, one student who is a guaranteed fail and 1 who is on the edge.  The guaranteed fail doesn't show up for tests, nor turn in assignments; I can't fix that.  The other one will fail unless I curve, despite some low-level quizzes, a book discussions grade, an oral presentation grade, and several extra credit opportunities.  My tests are actually only 60% of the grade, so....In a class of 7 students, my pass rate is down to 68%.  I had one class last semester with a pass rate of 14% -a fluke, because most dropped early on before it became apparent that the material would do them in (so I assumed there were personal reasons that drove those withdraws). 

Edited October 28, 2018 by Reefgazer

[Katy]

After reading everything, my thought is that at a community college they aren't concerned with their reputation.  At all.  They are concerned with the funding that comes from pass rates.  And serious science students are likely starting at a 4-year school anyway. The hard science classes will probably have to be retaken at the university they transfer to anyway, even with guaranteed transfer agreements (as in, the university might accept physics from the community college, but the engineering department won't).

So I would front end the class to be as difficult as absolutely possible and encourage early withdrawal, or even being dropped by you if your school allows that.

And then grade on a curve, or whichever is higher- the curve or the percentage grade.

[katilac]

1 minute ago, Reefgazer said:

I currently have, in a very small class of 7 students, one student who is a guaranteed fail and 1 who is on the edge.  The guaranteed fail doesn't show up for tests, nor turn in assignments; I can't fix that.  The other one will fail unless I curve, despite some low-level quizzes, a book discussions grade, an oral presentation grade, and several extra credit opportunities.  My tests are actually only 60% of the grade, so.... 

 

There are definitely situations that can't be fixed no matter what the teacher does! I'm for sure speaking in the hypothetical "what would I do?" sense, not saying you haven't done those things or investigated. 

[Reefgazer]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Honestly, if most jobs require a college degree to get your resume looked at - even if the actual job requirement do NOT have anything to do with having a degree- then yes, we are going to need to make some way for MOST people to get a degree. That may mean that the basics are easier. Because college is no longer for the elite, it is for almost anyone. So unless that changes, college will have to. 

The problem with this line of thinking is that the science department at my college trains a few biology majors and a few pre-med students; the majority of the students are doing their nursing school and PA school pre-requisites, and pre-reqs for allied health professions (like surgical techs, heart cath techs, etc..).  If we pass them and they are not competent leaving our school, 4 things happen: 

1:  They wash out of nursing or PA school after having used all their available student aid funds to find out they are unsuited to their chosen career.  After they have invested all this time and money, they have no more money to switch to an alternate field and complete a degree in some field where they are better suited.

2.  Our coursework becomes worthless and is in danger of being unaccepted by reputable schools in the future.

3.  We turn out health professionals who make medical errors and put people's lives at risk because some prof passed them when they should have failed.

4.  Biology and pre-med majors (most of these get through our science classes just fine) are ripped off of a thorough undergraduate course because we've done a poor job of preparing them, which means they are at a competitive disadvantage when they take the MCATs or apply to 4 year unis.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Reefgazer

[Frances]

49 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Honestly, if most jobs require a college degree to get your resume looked at - even if the actual job requirement do NOT have anything to do with having a degree- then yes, we are going to need to make some way for MOST people to get a degree. That may mean that the basics are easier. Because college is no longer for the elite, it is for almost anyone. So unless that changes, college will have to. 

There are plenty of colleges with plenty of majors where most students could get a degree. We don’t need to dumb down the rest of the majors or the schools to enable most to get a degree. Very few colleges require students to take major level science classes for a degree. Most offer much easier science for non major classes. Most colleges don’t require anything above college algebra or statistics for math. If students can’t handle that level of work, they probably shouldn’t be at a four year college yet. Getting up to speed at a community college first is probably a better path.

[Reefgazer]

2 hours ago, SamanthaCarter said:

Parents need to know! 

Ha.  FERPA means we can't share anything with parents unless the student gives us explicit written permission to do so.  Also, many of our students are adults out from under their parents' wings.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Reefgazer