Bluegoat Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 2 hours ago, creekland said: Who said or implied that this would have to change? I don't see where anyone has suggested changing the overall traditional methods of assessment. I still gave projects and exams and those were certainly based upon the content of the course. It's a change because now part of the assessment is based on testing suitable for children. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, StephanieZ said: Grades are not moral things. They're just convenient markers of achievement. It's not WRONG to grade inflate. You haven't morally failed if you grade inflate, and apparently, your bosses want you to grade inflate. So, if you want the job, that's what you need to do. Just because you don't like it and prefer not to do it doesn't mean it's wrong to do it Grades themselves are reasonably neutral measures of achievement, but the way that grading systems are administered certainly is a moral issue. The OP stated that she has a lot of nursing students in her classes. The patients of future nurses would probably be quite upset if they knew their student nurses were able to be at bedside due to grade inflation. Hopefully a state licensure exam will weed out incompetent candidates that are passed along, should this happen. Of course, that will result in the pass rate of the college decreasing, which will affect their accreditation and enrollment rates, possibly resulting in the elimination of the degree program. Grade inflation is not a good strategy when you are teaching material people really need to know in order to do their jobs effectively, and the jobs require literal life & death decision making skills. Grade inflation really isn't a good long term strategy if a uni or community college is trying to preserve and increase their funding in order to provide access to education for people. Edited October 28, 2018 by TechWife 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 19 minutes ago, StellaM said: I think grade inflation is a moral issue. This should not be in such tiny letters. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, StephanieZ said: Grades are not moral things. They're just convenient markers of achievement. It's not WRONG to grade inflate. The grade signals to an employer that the graduate has a certain skill. I do not want to drive across bridges designed by civil engineers who only have a passing grade in statics because the instructor was threatened with job loss if he didn't pass enough students. Nor do I want to be treated by a nurse whose math grade was inflated to hide the fact that she cannot actually calculate medication dosage, because the college needed high pass numbers. This is wrong and can cost lives. Edited October 28, 2018 by regentrude 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 OP - I went back and looked at policies that are in place at the uni where my son attended. Maybe some of them would be helpful suggestions that you could make to your uni at some point. The purpose of them is to encourage the students to buckle down and do the work. Students with a GPA under 2.0 are placed on academic probation. A student is allowed two semesters over their entire school enrollment on academic probation, then they are placed on academic suspension. Students on academic suspension are withdrawn from the university for a minimum of one year, after which they may reapply. Part of the reapplication process is producing an essay stating why things will be different this time around. At this point, they can ask that their GPA be reset (they retain any credits already earned, but the credits from their previous enrollment are not included in their GPA calculation), but they may not allow their GPA to drop below the 2.0 or they will be placed on academic suspension again (because they have already used their two academic probation semesters). A student is allowed a maximum of four withdrawals (drops) after the end of the drop/add period over the course of their entire enrollment period, up to the ninth week of the course. All courses students enroll in, including dropped courses are counted in the number of attempted hours. This helps keep the W rate low and causes students to think more carefully about balancing their course load and choosing the appropriate major and courses within that major. A student is allowed four grade forgiveness courses. These are courses where the student retakes a class in an attempt to raise their grade. The first grade remains on the transcript but is removed from their GPA calculation (the attempted hours remain) and the second grade replaces it. The second grade always replaces the first grade, so if someone makes a D the first time around and then makes an F the second time around, the second F grade is the one that goes into the GPA calculation. After four grade replacements, students can still retake courses, but both the first and second attempt grades are included in the GPA calculation. Grade forgiveness is only allowed one time per course. If a student takes a course three times, two of them will be in the GPA calculation (F first and second time, C the third time - an F and a C will be in the GPA calculation). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 18 hours ago, regentrude said: It has not been my experience that the tons of little assignments do anything to increase actual mastery... . I would much prefer to base the entire grade on one comprehensive oral final examinations which allows the examiner to really evaluate a student's mastery. That's how it was done where I went to university. Because that is true for you does not mean it is true for all types of learners.Because it worked well for you doesn't make it the best method. There are a TON of brilliant people that would totally freeze under an oral exam, and fail. People who know the material, but don't do well on oral tests. And just because it was done that way before doesn't mean we should stick with it. 18 hours ago, regentrude said: Actually, the approach of dozens of little assignments is particularly detrimental to smart students with ADHD. While they can perform well on exams, they inevitably forget several of the little assignments (quizzes, homework, online stuff) and end up with lower grades that do not reflect their mastery of the material, but rather their executive functioning difficulties. Because they simply forget to jump through all these hoops. They forget which day the quiz is due, don't remember to take it before it closes, forget that they have quizzes at all, think it's not every week, log onto the wrong website.... trust me, for people with ADHD, that's a pretty sure way to lose lots of points. I had online quizzes due every single Friday, and the number of students who were incapable of logging on to take the quiz within the 24 hour window that was also the same every week was staggering. I have ADHD. I did not find this to be the case. If quizzes and such were on a regular schedule they helped me stay on track. Now...if they often changed from one week to the next, and were irregular, yes it was hard to keep track of. But a weekly quiz, especially if it was open for a certain duration, was not hard to keep track of. 7 hours ago, creekland said: If our goal as a society is to have better knowledge across more of the population, then our teaching and assessing styles should also change as our knowledge of how people learn gets updated. Why would we be open to using the Periodic Table of Elements instead of sticking with the four Elements the Greeks proposed (earth, wind/air, fire, water)? For the same reason, our understanding of the brain and how it works has changed tremendously. Yes, some humans did just fine with older methods, but more could do just as well with updating our methods. It's not dumbing down if the content doesn't change. The two are not connected. Agreed. At one time, only certain learning styles were accommodated, but also at one time only certain socio economic groups were accommodated too. We can be more open to people with different learning styles or needs without sacrificing the final amount of knowledge learned. 6 hours ago, creekland said: The human brain usually doesn't finish "growing" until ages 21-25. For most people, that falls within their college years. There's nothing at all I've seen that shows Executive Function skills are always mastered by age 18 or so, but I firmly agree that those skills are best taught along the way and feel that our society has benefited by having these changes made in our school systems. We disagree on the value of quizzes. In my classes at high school (both math and science) I always had a daily quiz accomplished as students were coming in. It was written on the board and students did it on a scrap sheet of paper. My opening about a minute after the "sit down" bell was asking the correct answer with a quick reinforcing explanation. Occasionally these counted for a grade, but usually they didn't (grading by hand was time consuming). They were always on either the material taught the day before or material students were supposed to have read. What happened? Kids made an effort to anticipate what would be asked. It was considered a terrific thing to get these right and a bummer if they missed. They made sure they knew the material taught the day before and made sure to read anything I assigned as that could be "it." They never knew if it would be graded or not (something also shown to have better results), but they didn't seem to "bet" on it one way or the other. My pass rates on our state tests (Alg 1, Bio) are extremely high when I've had full time classes... and I have a standing offer for a total full time job if I ever want one. Is it all due to those quizzes? Of course not, but they certainly helped students retain what I taught. My teaching style didn't change. The material didn't either. What happened is learning - true learning - became fun rather than a chore - esp with the tone I set. Students were literally bummed the day or two when I didn't do one for whatever reason. Other teachers have often asked me why/how I get the results I do. Naturally I've mentioned this. A couple have adopted it (always great results). The rest don't want to "waste their time" and feel students should study "just because." Such is life. All of our students get the same state tests. No material in my classes was eliminated - I actually put more in than most of my peers as I like rabbit trails. Nothing was dumbed down. Yes, this is high school, but there's no magical reason the retention from regular recall review stops there. The more the brain sees/experiences something the more likely it is to remember things. Each time something is brought up the memory neuron is rewritten and strengthened. That's wonderful, and lines up with the reading I've done on how information is retained as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 I just don't understand justifying altering the content of a course so that more people can pass. To what end? A science major that can't do unit conversions? A passing grade reflects a certain level of mastery of a certain amount of content. If we alter the course to say that learning basic chemistry should be easy enough for a certain amount of people, what is university even for? Even if you need a diploma for a job that shouldn't require it, there are schools and majors that don't require chemistry or unit conversion. Why dumb down a science class or re-jigger the content so that students learn less? Chemistry and A+P used to be washout classes for people that weren't suited to the profession because, for whatever reason, the couldn't master the material to be a nurse or a doctor. The point is that not everyone can be a nurse or a doctor. I'm not saying this as an elitist. I got a business degree from an online school in part because I could not pass or devote time to more rigorous course of study. There are options out there for people who want a degree and can't pass college chemistry for science majors. I would never dream of expecting a college prof to tailor their course to my ability to learn the material. The material is the material. This is not what I want college to be for my kids or for the future of education in general. I'm kind of disturbed by how many people on an education board think university should be something like a jobs program because people need diplomad for jobs. That's exactly what's decimated k-12 education, IMO. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Ktgrok said: Because that is true for you does not mean it is true for all types of learners.Because it worked well for you doesn't make it the best method. It has nothing to do with "worked well for me". The reason I consider oral examination the best evaluation method to actually ascertain a person's knowledge is that it is adaptable. In a written test, you can only test a small percentage of the material. The student may know a lot, but blank on the fraction that is tested. In an oral examination, the examiner can adapt the exam as she goes along. When the student cannot answer a certain question, the examiner can probe whether that is isolated or widespread by switching topics. She can adjust the questioning to the level of grade the student aims to achieve and probe to see if the mastery is superficial for a C level or deep for an A. The examiner can also detect whether a student is nervous, ask for clarification when an answer is unclear, tell a student that the answer is incomplete and more information needs to be provided. - None of these are possible with a written exam. I can only evaluate what is on the page. This is a small snapshot of the student's knowledge that allows for a less accurate assessment of the student's actual abilities. As for having a comprehensive exam: it is useless to study material in four week chunks that get purged after the examination. The purpose of a class is to learn and know the material afterwards. A class where it's ok that the learned crammed stuff is forgotten after four weeks is not worth taking or requiring. If the point of college is to learn and retain what is learned, at some point that needs to be ascertained. If five semesters of math are required for a degree, the student needs to know the content of these five semesters at some point, not just bite sized four week portions. Our transcripts had three grades for comprehensive finals after 5 semesters of math, 8 semesters of experimental and 8 semesters of theoretical physics. Because if the degree requires this knowledge, at some point you have to actually know all the stuff simultaneously. Otherwise, why bother requiring all these classes? Edited October 29, 2018 by regentrude 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 27 minutes ago, regentrude said: It has nothing to do with "worked well for me". The reason I consider oral examination the best evaluation method to actually ascertain a person's knowledge is that it is adaptable. In a written test, you can only test a small percentage of the material. The student may know a lot, but blank on the fraction that is tested. In an oral examination, the examiner can adapt the exam as she goes along. When the student cannot answer a certain question, the examiner can probe whether that is isolated or widespread by switching topics. She can adjust the questioning to the level of grade the student aims to achieve and probe to see if the mastery is superficial for a C level or deep for an A. The examiner can also detect whether a student is nervous, ask for clarification when an answer is unclear, tell a student that the answer is incomplete and more information needs to be provided. - None of these are possible with a written exam. I can only evaluate what is on the page. This is a small snapshot of the student's knowledge that allows for a less accurate assessment of the student's actual abilities. And all of that would be basically impossible for a subset of students, because they can express themselves in say, writing, but face to face oral exams would make them freeze. I wonder how many students didn't even try because that style wouldn't work for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 15 minutes ago, Ktgrok said: And all of that would be basically impossible for a subset of students, because they can express themselves in say, writing, but face to face oral exams would make them freeze. I wonder how many students didn't even try because that style wouldn't work for them. Which is why, perhaps, a course with an oral examination as a comprehensive final is not for them. There are some courses where an oral exam would be impossible to administer and only written would work and some people do not write exams well. There are so many college options these days it's ridiculous to say that requiring an oral exam is beyond the pale because some people freeze up. Are you saying the prof should construct exams based on how well people do at certain things? Beyond true disabilities I'm not sure that's even possible. Sitting for panels or interviews or boards is a life skill anyhow. But you're right, not everyone is equally good at it. That doesn't mean some courses shouldn't use it for evaluation. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 My perspective is as someone who made it through high school without learning and retaining much of anything precisely because my teachers gave extra credit assignments and low-stakes quizzes for grades and exam retakes and participation grades and group projects. A person can get by without learning much of anything that way and retaining even less. I don't find it acceptable for high school, so I can home educate and try to head it off, but that's not possible for university. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Ktgrok said: And all of that would be basically impossible for a subset of students, because they can express themselves in say, writing, but face to face oral exams would make them freeze. I wonder how many students didn't even try because that style wouldn't work for them. I don't understand the bolded. All students I went to college with went to their examinations. Nobody questioned whether the style of examination worked "for them". That's a strange concept. You showed up and demonstrated your knowledge - just like in a job. If you go into a writing heavy field, nobody asks whether you like to write an exam essay or would prefer to draw a picture or do interpretive dance. You are supposed to demonstrate writing, so you write. The idea that the examiner should bow to the student's preferences in the examination method he has determined to produce the best assessment of mastery is a strange one. If the student has a disability that renders him unable to work with this format, he should be accommodated. But the requirement to explain a concept orally is not an undue hardship otherwise. Edited October 29, 2018 by regentrude 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said: And all of that would be basically impossible for a subset of students, because they can express themselves in say, writing, but face to face oral exams would make them freeze. I wonder how many students didn't even try because that style wouldn't work for them. To me the question at hand is: is there something about being able to successfully demonstrate your knowledge in an oral examination, say, that is both a) important AND b) not possible to demonstrate by other means? What is lacked by not demonstrating one's knowledge via a given method, and why does that lack matter? What makes it a hard that *matters*, as opposed to needlessly hard? (You see these sorts of questions come up in questions of rigor. Not all hard requirements are equal. It's hard to do 50 worksheets a night, every night, for homework, and certainly not everyone can do it, but mostly people here think that's a hard that doesn't matter wrt developing the skills that matter. It's also hard to do Latin to a high level, or to learn to write good, logical essays, and likewise not everyone can do it - but that kind of hard is thought to matter, to be worth it. So you don't lack much if you discard hard things that don't cultivate results that matter, but you do lack much if you discard hard things that do cultivate results that matter.) So to me a key question is: which hard things about a given college course *matter*, and why and how do they contribute to mastery; and which ones are needlessly hard, are just hard for the sake of hard, and so can be changed to increase access without decreasing mastery? It's easy to judge the hard things *I* can do as necessary, and the hard things *I* can't do as unnecessary ;), but I think it's important to go beyond that, to really delve the role of the various pieces, to think through what they accomplish, do they actually do what we thought they did, and whether they are worth the difficulty and the exclusion of those who can do everything but those things. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 4 minutes ago, forty-two said: To me the question at hand is: is there something about being able to successfully demonstrate your knowledge in an oral examination, say, that is both a) important AND b) not possible to demonstrate by other means? What is lacked by not demonstrating one's knowledge via a given method, and why does that lack matter? What makes it a hard that *matters*, as opposed to needlessly hard? (You see these sorts of questions come up in questions of rigor. Not all hard requirements are equal. It's hard to do 50 worksheets a night, every night, for homework, and certainly not everyone can do it, but mostly people here think that's a hard that doesn't matter wrt developing the skills that matter. It's also hard to do Latin to a high level, or to learn to write good, logical essays, and likewise not everyone can do it - but that kind of hard is thought to matter, to be worth it. So you don't lack much if you discard hard things that don't cultivate results that matter, but you do lack much if you discard hard things that do cultivate results that matter.) So to me a key question is: which hard things about a given college course *matter*, and why and how do they contribute to mastery; and which ones are needlessly hard, are just hard for the sake of hard, and so can be changed to increase access without decreasing mastery? It's easy to judge the hard things *I* can do as necessary, and the hard things *I* can't do as unnecessary ;), but I think it's important to go beyond that, to really delve the role of the various pieces, to think through what they accomplish, do they actually do what we thought they did, and whether they are worth the difficulty and the exclusion of those who can do everything but those things. Yes, I think this is an interesting point. When I was in university I was fairly good at writing an essay, or working in a seminar, and even ok at oral exams in my area of study. I could read a lot fairly quickly. What I didn't do so well at were my languages, particularly Greek - I got by in Latin. My problem there wasn't really conceptual, though I am slow at certain kinds of memory work, but mainly it was that I didn't have good self-discipline for that kind of work of memorization that is not in and of itself interesting. Lazy, poor executive function, whatever, I didn't have it. I am probably a little better now that I am not so distracted by boys and social life, but it's still my basic personality. Now, I did do a little better when my instructor was giving us more scaffolding, or the year I was simultaneously afraid of and had a crush my professor. And my worst year in terms of actual learning was the one where there were no tests, only a final exam, and the very kind older Swiss professor felt that people who wanted to learn Latin would, and he was there for them if they were interested. At a certain point though, I realized that it wasn't just my languages that would keep me from going on to graduate work in classics - I really just was not going to be interested in that kind of detailed and often boring work that is the lot of a classicist. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogger Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 (edited) For those who want to use class time for giving some people extra help: As someone whose child has poorer Executive Functioning skills I will say that extra hoops are very detrimental. Remembering a variety of tasks and extra stuff in the schedule is a dangerous game and could be his downfall. It's hard enough remembering and cramming in all the extra paperwork for FAFSA or the doctor. We are greatly regretting an AP class he took this year because there is too much busy work on stuff he finds pretty easy. In his DE class he can choose to work on that which he actually NEEDS to figure out. Without the ability to choose you waste valuable time doing busy work on things you already know and don't get to put in the extra time on stuff you really need to get down. In his case, it is the writing class that is giving him lots of writing about personal stuff. This class takes easily four -six times as long for him as for a NT kid but he needs to pass it though he will probably use more technical writing skills in his career. Focusing on this class more means he has less time for busy work in easier classes. He already deals with the fact that the teachers tend to always focus on stuff that is easy for him and ignore the stuff that is difficult because NT students don't have problems with it; it would be almost torturous to have him waste his personal time too or to go further down the road of focusing on stuff he already knows in class to help others. To make it fair you would need to hand hold and waste NT student's time on things that were hard for him and no one would get anywhere! People aren't trying to be mean or keep people from succeeding but sometimes you just need to learn to seek out resources on your own because not all students need the same help anyway. I am so in agreement with the poster who lamented the high expectations of 5 year olds and the low expectations of adults. Crazy. Edited for grammar. Edited October 29, 2018 by frogger 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 4 hours ago, regentrude said: The grade signals to an employer that the graduate has a certain skill. I do not want to drive across bridges designed by civil engineers who only have a passing grade in statics because the instructor was threatened with job loss if he didn't pass enough students. Nor do I want to be treated by a nurse whose math grade was inflated to hide the fact that she cannot actually calculate medication dosage, because the college needed high pass numbers. This is wrong and can cost lives. In this country and probably all other first world countries there are national and/or state tests that need to be taken and passed before anyone can work in these critical fields regardless of what any degree says. My Civil Engineering hubby has to have his PE license and keep doing certain coursework annually to retain it. Nurses have an exam. Med school students have exams (more than just what they get in med school). Even commercial truck drivers have exams. These exams level the playing field and ensure basic knowledge. Grades prior to these exams mean absolutely nothing. Students can look at exam pass rates to determine how well a college is likely to give them the knowledge they need. I just looked up the nursing exam results for colleges in PA and DE yesterday to help someone compare schools. If those exams ever get dumbed down then we're in trouble, but I think most folks realize that. In any event, there's no need for the OP to dumb down her classes IMO. As mentioned before, I had better pass rates on our state tests - tests given all over our state, not solely our school - just by working in known ways of helping humans learn. For those who can't be bothered to do the basics, document, document, document and give them their truly earned grade. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom@shiloh Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 17 hours ago, creekland said: The human brain usually doesn't finish "growing" until ages 21-25. For most people, that falls within their college years. There's nothing at all I've seen that shows Executive Function skills are always mastered by age 18 or so, but I firmly agree that those skills are best taught along the way and feel that our society has benefited by having these changes made in our school systems. We disagree on the value of quizzes. In my classes at high school (both math and science) I always had a daily quiz accomplished as students were coming in. It was written on the board and students did it on a scrap sheet of paper. My opening about a minute after the "sit down" bell was asking the correct answer with a quick reinforcing explanation. Occasionally these counted for a grade, but usually they didn't (grading by hand was time consuming). They were always on either the material taught the day before or material students were supposed to have read. What happened? Kids made an effort to anticipate what would be asked. It was considered a terrific thing to get these right and a bummer if they missed. They made sure they knew the material taught the day before and made sure to read anything I assigned as that could be "it." They never knew if it would be graded or not (something also shown to have better results), but they didn't seem to "bet" on it one way or the other. My pass rates on our state tests (Alg 1, Bio) are extremely high when I've had full time classes... and I have a standing offer for a total full time job if I ever want one. Is it all due to those quizzes? Of course not, but they certainly helped students retain what I taught. My teaching style didn't change. The material didn't either. What happened is learning - true learning - became fun rather than a chore - esp with the tone I set. Students were literally bummed the day or two when I didn't do one for whatever reason. Other teachers have often asked me why/how I get the results I do. Naturally I've mentioned this. A couple have adopted it (always great results). The rest don't want to "waste their time" and feel students should study "just because." Such is life. All of our students get the same state tests. No material in my classes was eliminated - I actually put more in than most of my peers as I like rabbit trails. Nothing was dumbed down. Yes, this is high school, but there's no magical reason the retention from regular recall review stops there. The more the brain sees/experiences something the more likely it is to remember things. Each time something is brought up the memory neuron is rewritten and strengthened. My dh has begun to do this -- daily quizzes-- in his college classes. It's a ton of work for him and he shouldn't HAVE to do it to get the kids to do what they're supposed to do in the first place, but what are the options? You can't flunk all of them. Colleges are in trouble for a myriad of reasons. Eventually, this will all implode and I wrack my brain trying to think of ways for my dh to get out of it. To the OP -- I'm sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 I want to clarify and forgot to quote, but I'm not saying oral exams are bad. Or that written ones are, or whatever. I'm saying the twe need to revisit the idea that things need to be done a certain way. In the past a certain type of student, a certain type of learner, could do well and the others were encouraged to pursue other things like the trades, etc. If we are now saying as a society that most people need to go to college than we need to find a way to teach other types of learners, and that isn't "unfair" for those that fit the typical profile. So as an example, those that do well on oral exams vs written are not more worthy than those that do better on written exams. And the inverse is true - having so many classes be writing heavy probably is hurting kids who know the material but don't express themselves so well in writing. (I'm not talkinb about an English class ). Having a variety of ways to measure progress, so that students with different strengths can learn and show what they have mastered, is not a bad thing if we want to open up college to more people. Now, this is more an issue in the general classes that everyone needs to take than in upper level where I'd hope that the classes themselves are reflecting the fields they are meant to prepare for, but even then it behooves us to be sure that is true. I wonder if part of the disconnect between how Bluegoat and I are approaching this is that the university systems are different in our respective countries? I know some places you only focus on your specific field during university, where as here you have to take classes in pretty much every discipline for the first two years. So the students can't just choose NOT to take classes in the sciences, or in the liberal arts, or whatever. But, all that said, I want to go to college where Bluegoat did, because personally cumulative oral exams would be awesome for me, lol. I'd love that. (I also loved it when we did oral book reports in elementary school instead of written ones! Of course, now I realize I almost definitely have dysgraphia, but that wasn't a known thing back then.) But I don't think any of this has anything to do with the OP, who seems to have students dropping because they either are doing nothing at all, or are overwhelmed by their life outside school, etc. At that point, the issue is probably more having to work or raise a family while doing school, etc. She can't fix that. And it does sound like an entrance test for science would be good, the same way the community colleges do placement tests for math and english skills (at least, they do here - the PERT I think). If you don't pass you have to take a remedial class first. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 3 hours ago, mom@shiloh said: My dh has begun to do this -- daily quizzes-- in his college classes. It's a ton of work for him and he shouldn't HAVE to do it to get the kids to do what they're supposed to do in the first place, but what are the options? You can't flunk all of them. IME it's only a ton of work if he grades all of them and even then I wouldn't call it a ton, but that could be a pure personality difference. I had one to five questions on mine pending how much I wanted to be sure they had in their minds correctly. My students knew that some would be randomly chosen to be graded. It was on the syllabus that way. I put them on the overhead via computer so only had to do that once per class type and they had their own scrap paper to write responses on. I only collected them the few days I graded them. Since they did the quiz when they were arriving and during the time I did attendance, it used up nearly no class time - perhaps some if they didn't get a question and I ended up reteaching part, but that was rare. I'm more thankful than ever now that my tippy top lad had such a terrific first grade teacher. The speech therapist who was in charge of his learning to speak told us we were lucky because most teachers are set in their ways and don't want to do something different, esp for one student. Now I realize how right she was. Totally changing his teaching method for one student had to have been time consuming, but for him, it changed his life. He was always smart (had already tested gifted), but he couldn't say more than half the letters in the alphabet and anything he couldn't say he also couldn't sound out or read. The word "was" could be on the same page three times (The girl was tall. The dog was black. etc) and he couldn't recognize it from one sentence to the next. It was very much like Einstein's being unable to speak or read well as a lad. I suppose 'tis tough to adapt, esp, when one is convinced they are right. It's a very human trait. To each our own. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 16 minutes ago, HeighHo said: This is middle school. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 1 hour ago, creekland said: IME it's only a ton of work if he grades all of them and even then I wouldn't call it a ton, but that could be a pure personality difference. I had one to five questions on mine pending how much I wanted to be sure they had in their minds correctly. My students knew that some would be randomly chosen to be graded. It was on the syllabus that way. I put them on the overhead via computer so only had to do that once per class type and they had their own scrap paper to write responses on. I only collected them the few days I graded them. Since they did the quiz when they were arriving and during the time I did attendance, it used up nearly no class time - perhaps some if they didn't get a question and I ended up reteaching part, but that was rare. I'm more thankful than ever now that my tippy top lad had such a terrific first grade teacher. The speech therapist who was in charge of his learning to speak told us we were lucky because most teachers are set in their ways and don't want to do something different, esp for one student. Now I realize how right she was. Totally changing his teaching method for one student had to have been time consuming, but for him, it changed his life. He was always smart (had already tested gifted), but he couldn't say more than half the letters in the alphabet and anything he couldn't say he also couldn't sound out or read. The word "was" could be on the same page three times (The girl was tall. The dog was black. etc) and he couldn't recognize it from one sentence to the next. It was very much like Einstein's being unable to speak or read well as a lad. I suppose 'tis tough to adapt, esp, when one is convinced they are right. It's a very human trait. To each our own. You're comparing first-grade reading instruction to a college-level chemistry course. If those two things are equivalent, that is part of the problem. University is not first grade. You're also talking to a bunch of homeschooling moms who have, in all probability, designed individualized instruction plans for their first graders, elementary school students, middle schoolers, and high schoolers. Besides the fact that many of us have stated that students with true disabilities should be accommodated (both because that's the law and also because that's what people should do), differentiating instruction for a first grader who needs help learning to read and speak is entirely different than putting a passing quota on a basic college science class required for health professions and science majors. If it is a simple matter of a daily quiz being needed to keep a college student on track and interested enough in the class to show up and learn the material, then they are not mature enough to be at university. That it is a fine technique for compulsory high school education to increase pass rates and goad students along isn't really relevant to the person who wants to be a nurse and must learn a certain level of chemistry to do so. These are classes people choose to take for professions they desire to be a part of. No one is requiring anyone to take chemistry for science majors to get a college degree in the same way that kids must show up for high school. If you've never taken a science class for non-science majors, they are much, much easier to pass. And your last two sentences...how tough it must be for those of us who disagree with you to adapt because we think we're right. As if none of us have considered what we're saying beyond a need to be correct in this discussion on an internet message board. Perhaps we just come from differing perspectives and different experiences and think differently on the issue? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 29 minutes ago, EmseB said: You're comparing first-grade reading instruction to a college-level chemistry course. Not at all. I'm talking about being willing to adapt to fit a situation and current science on learning. That transcends ages and locations going even beyond college. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 32 minutes ago, EmseB said: If it is a simple matter of a daily quiz being needed to keep a college student on track and interested enough in the class to show up and learn the material, then they are not mature enough to be at university. I should also address this because what I've done is broken it down into two different situations. For the immature student I've recommended documenting to support why they got a poor grade/failed. Documenting can't hurt the OP and might help if the Powers That Be at her college (or higher levels) can get a grasp on what's going on. The daily quiz to keep new info reinforced helps those who come to class retain more info. It helps more people master the information without having to dumb down a class by eliminating material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootsie Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 On 10/27/2018 at 10:58 PM, Ktgrok said: I love the idea of an online quiz!!!! I'm someone with ADHD who focuses on the urgent more than the important. A quiz is urgent, so I'd study for it. A long term deadline like a final exam is important, but not urgent, so I may get behind. If nothing else a quiz would be a wake up call to anyone who was in denial about their understanding of the material before it is too late. Maybe failing a quiz would be incentive to hit that tutoring center. And it wouldn't take up class time. And the students who don't NEED it, and are already studying, would get a chance to see how you word test questions, etc which would be a benefit to them. Having taught in a similar situation as the OP, my experience with this type of approach does not solve the problem the OP is having. IME, the students who most need the help just do not do the online quizzes. Or, someone else does the online quizzes for the student; so, you end up with a student with a passing grade in the course because of their high online grades but still cannot pass an in-class exam. In the end it is mostly busy work for the professor and the students who do not need the extra help 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 7 minutes ago, creekland said: Not at all. I'm talking about being willing to adapt to fit a situation and current science on learning. That transcends ages and locations going even beyond college. Okay, well, IME the current science on learning shifts about every five years or so and often not for the better but rather for trendiness or re-inventing the wheel. It's not transcendent or groundbreaking but often confusing and unhelpful and not grounded in anything substantial. Honestly, that's part of why classical education, both the content and the methods, are what we pursue in our homeschool. Our homeschool is probably an educationist's worst nightmare in terms of failure to adapt to current science on learning, lol. So yeah, that maybe colors my perspective. But in any case, no I don't think an anecdote about a 1st-grade teacher adapting to a struggling reader/speaker/learner is transcendent in terms of what it takes for what makes a good professor at university for a science major to pass a chemistry course, especially if somehow that adaptation boils down to bolstering their grades with daily quizzes. You have actual college professors in this thread telling you why it is onerous and not helpful, but you've dismissed them by saying that they are unwilling to adapt to current science on learning without having any idea what is going on in their classes. 10 minutes ago, creekland said: I should also address this because what I've done is broken it down into two different situations. For the immature student I've recommended documenting to support why they got a poor grade/failed. Documenting can't hurt the OP and might help if the Powers That Be at her college (or higher levels) can get a grasp on what's going on. The daily quiz to keep new info reinforced helps those who come to class retain more info. It helps more people master the information without having to dumb down a class by eliminating material. How do you not eliminate material if you're now taking at least 10 minutes of the class to administer a quiz each day, and then having the prof grade those quizzes at some point? Something has to give there, right? Again, this seems like a fine thing for public high school students who have to come to class each day and want some bonus points for doing what they should be doing anyway, but how does it follow that a quiz itself helps people learn things? From what I understand you're saying the quiz is the mechanism to retention and mastery, not that it is a simple incentive to study and show up to class and a way to add more points to bolster grades. Am I understanding that correctly? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootsie Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 2 hours ago, creekland said: IME it's only a ton of work if he grades all of them and even then I wouldn't call it a ton, but that could be a pure personality difference. I had one to five questions on mine pending how much I wanted to be sure they had in their minds correctly. My students knew that some would be randomly chosen to be graded. It was on the syllabus that way. I put them on the overhead via computer so only had to do that once per class type and they had their own scrap paper to write responses on. I only collected them the few days I graded them. Since they did the quiz when they were arriving and during the time I did attendance, it used up nearly no class time - perhaps some if they didn't get a question and I ended up reteaching part, but that was rare. I'm more thankful than ever now that my tippy top lad had such a terrific first grade teacher. The speech therapist who was in charge of his learning to speak told us we were lucky because most teachers are set in their ways and don't want to do something different, esp for one student. Now I realize how right she was. Totally changing his teaching method for one student had to have been time consuming, but for him, it changed his life. He was always smart (had already tested gifted), but he couldn't say more than half the letters in the alphabet and anything he couldn't say he also couldn't sound out or read. The word "was" could be on the same page three times (The girl was tall. The dog was black. etc) and he couldn't recognize it from one sentence to the next. It was very much like Einstein's being unable to speak or read well as a lad. I suppose 'tis tough to adapt, esp, when one is convinced they are right. It's a very human trait. To each our own. How much work this is depends upon a number of factors, including how large of a class size you have. I was in a situation like OP with 300 students in one section. These are just some of the problems that start occuring: 1) Monitoring cheating when questions are on an overhead and students are writing answers while I am taking attendance is impossible. 2) What do I do with students who are absent? First, it is often the ones who need the help and boost to their grade that aren't even in class--so it doesn't help them learn or help solve the grading issue. Second, some students have university excused absences; arranging for makeup quizzes is time consuming (especially when I don't have an office). 3) It is difficult in this environment to accommodate those with extended time and other accommodations 4) Collecting scraps of paper from students, grading them, and recording them does add up to class time and professor's time. If it only takes 30 seconds per student to grade and record the grade, that is 150 minutes per 300 student section. Is that really the best use of the professor's time? Students then want the grades updated in the online grading system--more time. Then they want them handed back in class, which does start eating up class time significantly. 5) Even storing the papers can become problematic for a professor who has no office. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 43 minutes ago, EmseB said: How do you not eliminate material if you're now taking at least 10 minutes of the class to administer a quiz each day, and then having the prof grade those quizzes at some point? Something has to give there, right? I mentioned before that we recently decided to drop in class lecture quizzes in our introductory courses. The time freed up allows me to work out an additional example problem in those classes that used to have a quiz. Far more beneficial for the students. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 40 minutes ago, EmseB said: How do you not eliminate material if you're now taking at least 10 minutes of the class to administer a quiz each day, and then having the prof grade those quizzes at some point? Something has to give there, right? Again, this seems like a fine thing for public high school students who have to come to class each day and want some bonus points for doing what they should be doing anyway, but how does it follow that a quiz itself helps people learn things? From what I understand you're saying the quiz is the mechanism to retention and mastery, not that it is a simple incentive to study and show up to class and a way to add more points to bolster grades. Am I understanding that correctly? The first part I quoted pretty much shows me you haven't read my posts - perhaps you've skimmed them. And yes, the quiz is the mechanism to retention. It gives the brain more contact with the information. If they get the answer right, they know it (or guessed well) and either way it's cemented in. If they get it wrong, the brain actually processes that better (with immediate feedback) and will be more likely to remember it correctly the next time it's seen (more likely vs not having a quiz). If one doesn't give immediate feedback then the benefit can be lost - esp on students who don't care what their grade was. It only works for those who care enough to look up the correct answer. This is why I always went over the correct answer(s) right after I was done with attendance. These quizzes of mine (though I learned the idea from a predecessor) were not time consuming things most people think of when they think "quiz" with quiet time, several questions, less credit than a test but a fair amount of credit, etc. They were quick daily checks done lightheartedly on scrap paper with immediate feedback and rare grading. The grades were a mere one point for right - none for wrong - so a max of 5. Who cares if they cheated? I certainly didn't. The goal isn't really THAT grade. It's the retention and however they can relearn the info if they missed it the first time works. It's keeping the brain up on the information as well as getting it focused in on the class. Offering a small reward randomly keeps the brain more interested, but overall, my classes enjoyed the challenge of seeing if they could get it. That's what made the difference in the year end tests. 35 minutes ago, jdahlquist said: How much work this is depends upon a number of factors, including how large of a class size you have. I was in a situation like OP with 300 students in one section. These are just some of the problems that start occuring: 1) Monitoring cheating when questions are on an overhead and students are writing answers while I am taking attendance is impossible. 2) What do I do with students who are absent? First, it is often the ones who need the help and boost to their grade that aren't even in class--so it doesn't help them learn or help solve the grading issue. Second, some students have university excused absences; arranging for makeup quizzes is time consuming (especially when I don't have an office). 3) It is difficult in this environment to accommodate those with extended time and other accommodations 4) Collecting scraps of paper from students, grading them, and recording them does add up to class time and professor's time. If it only takes 30 seconds per student to grade and record the grade, that is 150 minutes per 300 student section. Is that really the best use of the professor's time? Students then want the grades updated in the online grading system--more time. Then they want them handed back in class, which does start eating up class time significantly. 5) Even storing the papers can become problematic for a professor who has no office. #1 I addressed above. #2 I just put "omit" in the grading system. No make up was needed. These aren't exam-type quizzes. #3 There was no need. These were quick either "you know it or don't" questions - not complex math problems, etc. #4 There's no way it took 30 seconds per paper. Maybe 2 at best, and there were times when I could let Aids do it though usually I was curious myself since I used even the non-graded feedback to assess comprehension. None got returned. Students passed them down a line to turn in the rare times I wanted them. #5 No storage necessary. One could probably even eliminate the grading TBH. One would just have to come up with some sort of random reward now and then. I know many of my co-workers who now do this (again - always great results) use candy or pretzels. This is more to offset those who go hungry at home though - offering food for positive results considering many who are at a disadvantage academically have other issues at home. With college kids one might be able to just use the mental reward in the right environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 1 hour ago, EmseB said: You have actual college professors in this thread telling you why it is onerous and not helpful, but you've dismissed them by saying that they are unwilling to adapt to current science on learning without having any idea what is going on in their classes. I wanted to separate this out because it's a totally different issue. I'm trying to be helpful to the OP (and anyone else reading who is interested). I'm offering suggestions of what might work using methods that have been proven to help more people without needing to cut content. We all agree that there's really nothing that can be done about the student who never shows up or does work, so I suggest documenting those to support her case, but with those in class who are trying and still not making it (if there are any), you're saying there's no help possible? Tough to be them? Or what do you suggest given the OP's situation. That she bite the bullet and quit? (I know someone did suggest that, but I'm too lazy to go back and see who.) For most of us, that's not an acceptable solution as other jobs are not easy to find and the money in our budgets is helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootsie Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 3 minutes ago, creekland said: The first part I quoted pretty much shows me you haven't read my posts - perhaps you've skimmed them. And yes, the quiz is the mechanism to retention. It gives the brain more contact with the information. If they get the answer right, they know it (or guessed well) and either way it's cemented in. If they get it wrong, the brain actually processes that better (with immediate feedback) and will be more likely to remember it correctly the next time it's seen (more likely vs not having a quiz). If one doesn't give immediate feedback then the benefit can be lost - esp on students who don't care what their grade was. It only works for those who care enough to look up the correct answer. This is why I always went over the correct answer(s) right after I was done with attendance. These quizzes of mine (though I learned the idea from a predecessor) were not time consuming things most people think of when they think "quiz" with quiet time, several questions, less credit than a test but a fair amount of credit, etc. They were quick daily checks done lightheartedly on scrap paper with immediate feedback and rare grading. The grades were a mere one point for right - none for wrong - so a max of 5. Who cares if they cheated? I certainly didn't. The goal isn't really THAT grade. It's the retention and however they can relearn the info if they missed it the first time works. It's keeping the brain up on the information as well as getting it focused in on the class. Offering a small reward randomly keeps the brain more interested, but overall, my classes enjoyed the challenge of seeing if they could get it. That's what made the difference in the year end tests. #1 I addressed above. #2 I just put "omit" in the grading system. No make up was needed. These aren't exam-type quizzes. #3 There was no need. These were quick either "you know it or don't" questions - not complex math problems, etc. #4 There's no way it took 30 seconds per paper. Maybe 2 at best, and there were times when I could let Aids do it though usually I was curious myself since I used even the non-graded feedback to assess comprehension. None got returned. Students passed them down a line to turn in the rare times I wanted them. #5 No storage necessary. One could probably even eliminate the grading TBH. One would just have to come up with some sort of random reward now and then. I know many of my co-workers who now do this (again - always great results) use candy or pretzels. This is more to offset those who go hungry at home though - offering food for positive results considering many who are at a disadvantage academically have other issues at home. With college kids one might be able to just use the mental reward in the right environment. The ability to do this varies quite a bit according to subject matter. 1. I do care about cheating. It is important part of professional ethics training. I do not think we can expect students to speak up when a small amount of money is being stolen from the company when we have demonstrated in the classroom that we don't stand up to unethical behavior. 2. I am REQUIRED by NCAA regulations to provide equivalent makeup quizzes for ahtletes who miss due to athletic competitions. We cannot omit these grades. 3. Much of the college work that I teach is not a "you know it or don't" type definition. In finance, it is the ability to calculate the math problem that is important. In economics, it is the ability to analyze a supply and demand question. 4 . I could not even get the papers in order to record them in 2 seconds per paper. If it is only rarely that students are turning them in (and there is no penalty for not putting them in--only an 'omit') then students do not take it seriously and the learning benefit is lost. I do not have any aids to help with grading. 5. If papers do not get returned (which leads to complaints by students) and they are not stored, what is done with them? I would not be allowed to simply throw them in the shredder--i it is graded and not returned to the student, many schools have a policy that it must be retained for at least a year or longer. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, jdahlquist said: The ability to do this varies quite a bit according to subject matter. 1. I do care about cheating. It is important part of professional ethics training. I do not think we can expect students to speak up when a small amount of money is being stolen from the company when we have demonstrated in the classroom that we don't stand up to unethical behavior. 2. I am REQUIRED by NCAA regulations to provide equivalent makeup quizzes for ahtletes who miss due to athletic competitions. We cannot omit these grades. 3. Much of the college work that I teach is not a "you know it or don't" type definition. In finance, it is the ability to calculate the math problem that is important. In economics, it is the ability to analyze a supply and demand question. 4 . I could not even get the papers in order to record them in 2 seconds per paper. If it is only rarely that students are turning them in (and there is no penalty for not putting them in--only an 'omit') then students do not take it seriously and the learning benefit is lost. I do not have any aids to help with grading. 5. If papers do not get returned (which leads to complaints by students) and they are not stored, what is done with them? I would not be allowed to simply throw them in the shredder--i it is graded and not returned to the student, many schools have a policy that it must be retained for at least a year or longer. In your situation if you opted to do something like this I would go with not grading any of them, but I'll agree with you that finance is different than intro to Chemistry. Chem - and most, if not all, intro science classes have a ton of vocab and concepts that need to be mastered in a timely manner. Cramming before an exam is rarely helpful and often detrimental. When I did it with Alg 1 there were also plenty of concepts I could ask about with questions. Finding questions was incredibly easy. Regarding cheating (on these) I, myself, would sometimes mention to the kids that if they had an "off" night the night before or were having a brain dead moment that learning from their "co-workers" was perfectly normal on the job. In time they ought to be there for their co-workers on their off day. It added to the lighthearted challenge of the nature rather than making it a stressful, "Oh cwap it's a quiz!" environment. It's definitely not the same environment as what one typically thinks of as a quiz or exam. For those we change seating and all to ensure individual work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 ps to all: I should have done a better job explaining what these quizzes are like earlier in the thread. That's my fault for knowing exactly what I was talking about and not realizing that others wouldn't. All of us know what a "quiz" is, but these "daily quizzes" are a different beast. It's a way to start classes by focusing in on the topic with a mental recall exercise. If the question came from the assigned reading, then it was a reminder to students that these readings were important and they'd be behind the rest of the class if they didn't do them. Both types of questions work well to train the brain and keeping it lighthearted keeps it fun rather than a chore - giving fun motivation vs "have to" or "should" motivation which don't work as well for most humans. I've had students come into class late for whatever reason upset that they missed the quiz for that day - certainly not due to the grade, esp since there usually wasn't one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 10 minutes ago, creekland said: The first part I quoted pretty much shows me you haven't read my posts - perhaps you've skimmed them. And yes, the quiz is the mechanism to retention. It gives the brain more contact with the information. If they get the answer right, they know it (or guessed well) and either way it's cemented in. If they get it wrong, the brain actually processes that better (with immediate feedback) and will be more likely to remember it correctly the next time it's seen (more likely vs not having a quiz). If one doesn't give immediate feedback then the benefit can be lost - esp on students who don't care what their grade was. It only works for those who care enough to look up the correct answer. This is why I always went over the correct answer(s) right after I was done with attendance. These quizzes of mine (though I learned the idea from a predecessor) were not time consuming things most people think of when they think "quiz" with quiet time, several questions, less credit than a test but a fair amount of credit, etc. They were quick daily checks done lightheartedly on scrap paper with immediate feedback and rare grading. The grades were a mere one point for right - none for wrong - so a max of 5. Who cares if they cheated? I certainly didn't. The goal isn't really THAT grade. It's the retention and however they can relearn the info if they missed it the first time works. It's keeping the brain up on the information as well as getting it focused in on the class. Offering a small reward randomly keeps the brain more interested, but overall, my classes enjoyed the challenge of seeing if they could get it. That's what made the difference in the year end tests. #1 I addressed above. #2 I just put "omit" in the grading system. No make up was needed. These aren't exam-type quizzes. #3 There was no need. These were quick either "you know it or don't" questions - not complex math problems, etc. #4 There's no way it took 30 seconds per paper. Maybe 2 at best, and there were times when I could let Aids do it though usually I was curious myself since I used even the non-graded feedback to assess comprehension. None got returned. Students passed them down a line to turn in the rare times I wanted them. #5 No storage necessary. One could probably even eliminate the grading TBH. One would just have to come up with some sort of random reward now and then. I know many of my co-workers who now do this (again - always great results) use candy or pretzels. This is more to offset those who go hungry at home though - offering food for positive results considering many who are at a disadvantage academically have other issues at home. With college kids one might be able to just use the mental reward in the right environment. No, I have read all your posts. More than once usually because I'm trying to understand what you're getting at. I feel like reading the above that maybe we're just not on the same page as to what a college chemistry course entails. I can't see any way numbers 1-5 could in any way be applied to a college-level science or math class and have any kind of value in terms of "giving the brain more contact" with information needed to master and retain the material, be done in 2 seconds (including going over the correct answer? helping people who got the answer wrong and don't understand why?), and engage college students as adults. I am trying to conceptualize all the things you've written about these quizzes. We're giving them a 2-second quiz that isn't graded that we don't care if they cheat on that we're going to give the answer to immediately, and we're going to throw away after it's completed. None of this is going to take any time from the actual instruction because it will be done during attendance. The students (ages 18-99) are not going to find this infantilizing or a waste of their time (because it doesn't take up more than a few seconds of class time), but yet it will boost pass rates for those struggling with the material because it leads to mastery and retention no matter if they guess correctly, guess incorrectly, get it right because they know the material, if they get it wrong because they make a calculation error, or get it wrong because they don't understand the material. It is purely the action of taking the quiz and getting immediate feedback that boosts mastery and retention? But also we're not giving any legal accommodations for these quizzes to students who actually warrant them because you don't have to grade it (which I don't think is exactly the case, really, I think accommodations have to be given to any kind of instruction, legally speaking), so the students who might be struggling for legit issues with learning or disabilities don't get the benefits of what the quiz might accomplish. And it takes very little time for the professor to actually come up with these questions that fit all these requirements. These are things you wrote; I am not making this up in order to be right or to find fault. I am genuinely confused about how all of this works in a lecture section of 300 students, or even smaller sections where the stuff they have to learn cannot be distilled to two-second answers because it is mathematically and scientifically complex. Add in the fact that I am pretty cynical about college students caring about any kind of "quiz" that they aren't getting a grade for in any case. The original reason someone asked about giving low-stakes quizzes initially was so that it would encourage people to come to class and bolster their grades with extra points. I understand now that's not what you're doing, but I can't see how it would be applicable in most college classes, to be honest. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, creekland said: And yes, the quiz is the mechanism to retention. It gives the brain more contact with the information. I guess this is what I don't understand. My students spend 4-6 hours on homework each week (significantly more for struggling students), during which time their brain is in contact with the material (ETA in a way that is tailored to very specific educational goals; each problem is designed to increase understanding of a specific concept, and problems build on each other. ). Even if you ignore the additional four hours in class - how is a 2 minute quiz going to make a significant difference compared to this? Edited October 29, 2018 by regentrude 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 24 minutes ago, creekland said: I wanted to separate this out because it's a totally different issue. I'm trying to be helpful to the OP (and anyone else reading who is interested). I'm offering suggestions of what might work using methods that have been proven to help more people without needing to cut content. We all agree that there's really nothing that can be done about the student who never shows up or does work, so I suggest documenting those to support her case, but with those in class who are trying and still not making it (if there are any), you're saying there's no help possible? Tough to be them? Or what do you suggest given the OP's situation. That she bite the bullet and quit? (I know someone did suggest that, but I'm too lazy to go back and see who.) For most of us, that's not an acceptable solution as other jobs are not easy to find and the money in our budgets is helpful. 1 No, I'm saying that usually there are avenues that a student can pursue (tutoring labs, office hours, etc.) that don't involve hoop jumping for other students or the professors. I am not a college professor so my advice to the OP was limited. My concern in this thread was that university administrations are prioritizing pass rates in hard sciences over learning the material and that there is an idea that college science teachers should be forced to add in additional graded items to bolster grades or to leave out material (I can't get over the post about unit conversions!!) to make sure students can pass the class. I think we're already at a point where college students expect to be spoon-fed a lot of stuff. My DH taught classes for recent college grads for the military. These were students who made it through four years of university and were learning their profession as officers. The amount of students who thought my DH was a hard or unfair teacher because he did not tell him what was going to be on the tests was astounding. These people were gobsmacked that they had to learn all the material that was being taught and then be tested on some selection of it and they did not know what that selection of questions would be in advance. They wanted to be given what would be on the test, cram it in, test on it, and then dump it before the next unit began. That was the primary college experience they had. My comments on this thread are as someone who is concerned that college is becoming more like public k-12 and not actually imparting learning or an education, but becoming a hugely expensive mechanism for someone to prove they are qualified for a job because they can manage to game a system for four years, and that system should be bending over backward to make sure that they get a degree for a job that they need to survive. Whew, sorry, that was a tangent from what we were talking about. I have a friend who took Anatomy and Physiology three times with three different professors and availed herself of a lot of available help through the community college and outside sources. She couldn't pass the class. She couldn't understand the material. She is not a dumb person and worked extremely hard. A lot of people couldn't pass this class because it fed into an extremely competitive nursing program. You could say that the CC said, "Tough to be you," to her, but they really didn't. The nursing program just wasn't for her because A+P is a hard class that fed into even harder classes, clinicals, and licensing exams. She went on to do something else and was successful at other things. Just because someone can't pass a college level science class does not mean there is something wrong with the class or the college or the professor. A lot of people don't pass those classes. I didn't even attempt those classes (even though science and math interest me) because when I was going through college I had small children and could not devote the proper time or resources to them in order to pass. Not everyone who attempts a college class will be able to master it. That is not necessarily a fault of anyone or a bad thing. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 I want to say - I also wish people would not act as if this same stuff is ok in the humanities because those people aren't going into some "real" job like nursing or engineering. If you want to know why kids get into university classes and the professors are kind of crappy, or you meat people with undergraduate degrees who have managed to learn nothing, this is why. It is a significant loss, not something that is ok because they need the paper for a job. If the standards were maintained, employers would have to stop looking for degrees for jobs that really don't require that kind of thinking. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 7 minutes ago, Bluegoat said: I want to say - I also wish people would not act as if this same stuff is ok in the humanities because those people aren't going into some "real" job like nursing or engineering. If you want to know why kids get into university classes and the professors are kind of crappy, or you meat people with undergraduate degrees who have managed to learn nothing, this is why. It is a significant loss, not something that is ok because they need the paper for a job. If the standards were maintained, employers would have to stop looking for degrees for jobs that really don't require that kind of thinking. I don't think it's okay, but I have kind of been posting thinking that ship has already sailed. ? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 3 hours ago, EmseB said: I am trying to conceptualize all the things you've written about these quizzes. We're giving them a 2-second quiz that isn't graded that we don't care if they cheat on that we're going to give the answer to immediately, and we're going to throw away after it's completed. None of this is going to take any time from the actual instruction because it will be done during attendance. The students (ages 18-99) are not going to find this infantilizing or a waste of their time (because it doesn't take up more than a few seconds of class time), but yet it will boost pass rates for those struggling with the material because it leads to mastery and retention no matter if they guess correctly, guess incorrectly, get it right because they know the material, if they get it wrong because they make a calculation error, or get it wrong because they don't understand the material. It is purely the action of taking the quiz and getting immediate feedback that boosts mastery and retention? But also we're not giving any legal accommodations for these quizzes to students who actually warrant them because you don't have to grade it (which I don't think is exactly the case, really, I think accommodations have to be given to any kind of instruction, legally speaking), so the students who might be struggling for legit issues with learning or disabilities don't get the benefits of what the quiz might accomplish. Somehow you missed that the 2 seconds was for grading each paper the few times they are graded, not for the whole deal. But really, I've explained it the best I can via typing rather than someone observing. It's ok if it doesn't suit you (or any reader). It's a suggestion that has worked well - with the man I copied it from being a math professor (Linear Alegbra) at my college Virginia Tech - back in the 80s. I ended up with an A- in his class. I don't know if anyone failed or not. However, if one can't grasp the idea via whatever method, chances are it won't work for them. IEPs involved don't change. Students who have an aid still have that person for all of class. Those aids are some of the folks who love the idea as it often helps their kids out a lot with both retention and focusing, esp since it doesn't carry any stress with it. 2 hours ago, regentrude said: I guess this is what I don't understand. My students spend 4-6 hours on homework each week (significantly more for struggling students), during which time their brain is in contact with the material (ETA in a way that is tailored to very specific educational goals; each problem is designed to increase understanding of a specific concept, and problems build on each other. ). Even if you ignore the additional four hours in class - how is a 2 minute quiz going to make a significant difference compared to this? It provides some quick conceptual reinforcement from recall. It focuses the brain. It's definitely true that students already doing well don't need it, but that wasn't the point of the OP's problem. 2 hours ago, HeighHo said: What you are describing, Creek, is the entry quiz; common here in NY high school gen ed; it has supplanted the "Do Now" on the overhead. The problem with it is that it prevents the students from using the study skill of enter and prepare for the class by rereading the highlights from yesterday's notes during the gathering time...so instead of reviewing several key points and a few details, you have now limited everyone to a factoid that you are having them recall. Not helpful in the long run to most of the students, but it gets you the pass for your unprepared and unwilling. Helpful to the serious, they get the early message that they are on their own and need to get a tutor or burn the study oil. In every post about your school district that I recall, I'm astounded at what you write. It's so different from any school I've ever encountered that I really can't comment about what goes on in your area. There is no "Do Now" segment of our classes and never has been. No student I know of enters our classes, sits down, rereads anything from yesterday or whatever unless there is a test that day and they are cramming. Kids, if not actively involved in things like our daily quizzes are either chatting with their peers or on their phones until the "sit down" bell rings - and often after that into the time that attendance is being taken - up to whenever the teacher starts with the day's lesson. It would last the whole class if no one took charge. I work in a statistically average public school that is starting to pull upward in the ranks with math (esp now that we've eliminated Fuzzy Math) and science as we work in new ways of doing things. We used to rarely get National Merit kids but now it's becoming more common - as in - at least a couple every year. We're falling further down in English (overall), but I'm not in that department enough to know what they do. I know I ate lunch with some members of their department after this year's PSAT and... never again. I prefer my science/math colleagues and their POV. One of our top English teachers actually eats with us... interestingly enough... at my last lunch with them her reason is the same as mine. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 2 hours ago, EmseB said: No, I'm saying that usually there are avenues that a student can pursue (tutoring labs, office hours, etc.) that don't involve hoop jumping for other students or the professors. I am not a college professor so my advice to the OP was limited. My concern in this thread was that university administrations are prioritizing pass rates in hard sciences over learning the material and that there is an idea that college science teachers should be forced to add in additional graded items to bolster grades or to leave out material (I can't get over the post about unit conversions!!) to make sure students can pass the class. I think we're already at a point where college students expect to be spoon-fed a lot of stuff. My DH taught classes for recent college grads for the military. These were students who made it through four years of university and were learning their profession as officers. The amount of students who thought my DH was a hard or unfair teacher because he did not tell him what was going to be on the tests was astounding. These people were gobsmacked that they had to learn all the material that was being taught and then be tested on some selection of it and they did not know what that selection of questions would be in advance. They wanted to be given what would be on the test, cram it in, test on it, and then dump it before the next unit began. That was the primary college experience they had. My comments on this thread are as someone who is concerned that college is becoming more like public k-12 and not actually imparting learning or an education, but becoming a hugely expensive mechanism for someone to prove they are qualified for a job because they can manage to game a system for four years, and that system should be bending over backward to make sure that they get a degree for a job that they need to survive. Whew, sorry, that was a tangent from what we were talking about. I have a friend who took Anatomy and Physiology three times with three different professors and availed herself of a lot of available help through the community college and outside sources. She couldn't pass the class. She couldn't understand the material. She is not a dumb person and worked extremely hard. A lot of people couldn't pass this class because it fed into an extremely competitive nursing program. You could say that the CC said, "Tough to be you," to her, but they really didn't. The nursing program just wasn't for her because A+P is a hard class that fed into even harder classes, clinicals, and licensing exams. She went on to do something else and was successful at other things. Just because someone can't pass a college level science class does not mean there is something wrong with the class or the college or the professor. A lot of people don't pass those classes. I didn't even attempt those classes (even though science and math interest me) because when I was going through college I had small children and could not devote the proper time or resources to them in order to pass. Not everyone who attempts a college class will be able to master it. That is not necessarily a fault of anyone or a bad thing. With this post you and I agree on the main points, but... yes... that's a tangent and none of it will help the OP with her here and now problem. Some (not all) students can do better with different methods. This is proven. That could help. Whether the OP is interested in any specific option or not is entirely up to her, but the topic is WWYD and what I would do is document for those who aren't making an effort and see what I could do differently to help the most I could - without dumbing down or eliminating a thing. As I said before, I ADD things to classes because I feel there is a lot more relevant out there to daily life than our curricula includes. I don't add much to math (aside from Life Lessons as they come up), but science can add a ton with new discoveries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 3 hours ago, creekland said: Regarding cheating (on these) I, myself, would sometimes mention to the kids that if they had an "off" night the night before or were having a brain dead moment that learning from their "co-workers" was perfectly normal on the job. In time they ought to be there for their co-workers on their off day. It added to the lighthearted challenge of the nature rather than making it a stressful, "Oh cwap it's a quiz!" environment. It's definitely not the same environment as what one typically thinks of as a quiz or exam. For those we change seating and all to ensure individual work. This is really blowing my mind. People who consistently have "off" days get fired. They are hired to do a job, not to ask their co-workers to do it for them. Good employees who have "off" days never assume their co-workers will take up the slack, either. I think what you are describing is something I would definitely consider busy work - if it doesn't matter if it gets done, graded or if the students are allowed by the instructor to cheat, it's busy work, not an academic exercise that promotes learning. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 1 minute ago, TechWife said: This is really blowing my mind. People who consistently have "off" days get fired. They are hired to do a job, not to ask their co-workers to do it for them. Good employees who have "off" days never assume their co-workers will take up the slack, either. I think what you are describing is something I would definitely consider busy work - if it doesn't matter if it gets done, graded or if the students are allowed by the instructor to cheat, it's busy work, not an academic exercise that promotes learning. Suit yourself. It works IRL. I'm a science minded person so definitely prefer going off seen results rather than theories. The co-workers who have adopted the same strategy are also going off actual results. No one is asking their co-worker to do their job for them BTW. You are totally reading into it what you want to see. It's common where I've worked if someone doesn't know or remember a specific something to ask their next door neighbor (nearby classroom, cubicle, office, or whatever). I've yet to see anyone fired or even get a bad word on a progress report for doing so. Chances are good that after they've had to ask once they'll also remember it themselves next time. It adds another memory neuron to that section of the brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 7 minutes ago, creekland said: Somehow you missed that the 2 seconds was for grading each paper the few times they are graded, not for the whole deal. But really, I've explained it the best I can via typing rather than someone observing. It's ok if it doesn't suit you (or any reader). It's a suggestion that has worked well - with the man I copied it from being a math professor (Linear Alegbra) at my college Virginia Tech - back in the 80s. I ended up with an A- in his class. I don't know if anyone failed or not. However, if one can't grasp the idea via whatever method, chances are it won't work for them. IEPs involved don't change. Students who have an aid still have that person for all of class. Those aids are some of the folks who love the idea as it often helps their kids out a lot with both retention and focusing, esp since it doesn't carry any stress with it. It provides some quick conceptual reinforcement from recall. It focuses the brain. It's definitely true that students already doing well don't need it, but that wasn't the point of the OP's problem. 3 Sorry, I did misunderstand that. I thought the 2 seconds was referenced in regards to the idea that nothing was taken away from other instructional time in other to do this. I think I got mixed up because I was thinking that taking 10 minutes to do a quiz at the beginning of class would have to come at the expense of some of the instructional content, but you were saying there was nothing being taken away from instructional time. I will probably not ever really grasp how this would work to enhance retention or mastery of concepts one is struggling with, maybe especially in a class like linear algebra, but the idea of anything in linear algebra being quick baffles me because it takes me a long time to work out easier math concepts than that!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, creekland said: Suit yourself. It works IRL. I'm a science minded person so definitely prefer going off seen results rather than theories. The co-workers who have adopted the same strategy are also going off actual results. No one is asking their co-worker to do their job for them BTW. You are totally reading into it what you want to see. It's common where I've worked if someone doesn't know or remember a specific something to ask their next door neighbor (nearby classroom, cubicle, office, or whatever). I've yet to see anyone fired or even get a bad word on a progress report for doing so. Chances are good that after they've had to ask once they'll also remember it themselves next time. It adds another memory neuron to that section of the brain. I think the difference is in the word quiz, especially if it's being graded. So if it's a group thing where everyone is conversing and working on it together is fine, that's different than a quiz where people are expected to learn something, recall it, and answer a question. On any quiz I've taken that wasn't assigned to a group, if I was having an off day and couldn't answer the question, leaned over to my neighbor and asked them, it would be blatant cheating because the whole point was to test my knowledge. So that may be where I and others are missing what you're getting at. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonflower Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Look, a 1 minute quiz/ question-and-answer session (as the selective grading thing might not work well in a college setting) at the beginning of class 3x/week is not going to make a massive difference in the number of people who pass the class. It might boost retention of that one thing (what is the latin name for the wrist bone? or whatever, I didn't take science in college as I tested out) but it's not going to make a failing student into a passing student. Now, if you did spend a more significant portion of class time on memory retention, covering readings in detail that were assigned for outside of class with the assumption that not everyone read them, going over topics that are necessary to progress at the current level but that should have been mastered before the class started - that would bring a number of DF students up to passing, I bet. But the people who were ready to take the class, who do the readings outside of class, who do memory work on their own - you are now failing to teach them at their level. You can't teach everyone at their level in every class, of course, so it's always a tradeoff. the OP's admin (and creekland's philosophy and school system, I guess) says that right now we are prioritizing number of students passing these classes, not number of students excelling or number of students working to competence or learning the material technically covered by the class description. That's fair enough, it's just a different mission. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 4 minutes ago, EmseB said: Sorry, I did misunderstand that. I thought the 2 seconds was referenced in regards to the idea that nothing was taken away from other instructional time in other to do this. I think I got mixed up because I was thinking that taking 10 minutes to do a quiz at the beginning of class would have to come at the expense of some of the instructional content, but you were saying there was nothing being taken away from instructional time. I will probably not ever really grasp how this would work to enhance retention or mastery of concepts one is struggling with, maybe especially in a class like linear algebra, but the idea of anything in linear algebra being quick baffles me because it takes me a long time to work out easier math concepts than that!! At our school there are 5 minutes between classes. This means a student can show up more or less as the first bell rings if they are in the class next door previously or they can come in at the end of the 5 minutes if they had to use the restroom or walk from the other end of the school or whatever. This whole time is available as kids (once conditioned) look at the overhead the moment they come in checking to see if they know the answer(s). Almost all will be finished prior to the "sit down class begins now" bell, but those who came in later still need a little time. That's ok because I must do attendance with each class and that takes a minute or so. As soon as I'm done I'm walking over to the overhead to go over the answers. If there aren't any questions or seeming lack of understanding then we're done and I start the topic of the day. If there is, I want to know so I can address it right away. If it made my quiz it's something I really want them to know - unless it came from the reading and then it's just a reminder to the kids to actually do the reading next time so they won't be among the few who didn't get it. The human brain likes being one of a crowd. They rarely want to be the odd one out on a team, esp in a negative light. With the friendly bantering that goes on, it encourages folks to try to "get it" next time. My class time rarely is planned to the minute. I always adjust as needed to try to ensure as much mastery as possible - though of course, 100% isn't going to happen and it's important to cover it all. It's just dynamic in how that happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 5 minutes ago, EmseB said: I think the difference is in the word quiz, especially if it's being graded. So if it's a group thing where everyone is conversing and working on it together is fine, that's different than a quiz where people are expected to learn something, recall it, and answer a question. On any quiz I've taken that wasn't assigned to a group, if I was having an off day and couldn't answer the question, leaned over to my neighbor and asked them, it would be blatant cheating because the whole point was to test my knowledge. So that may be where I and others are missing what you're getting at. Yes, this was part of where I introduced it incompletely - my mistake. We call them daily quizzes but they are totally different than "a quiz" in the traditional sense. 3 minutes ago, moonflower said: You can't teach everyone at their level in every class, of course, so it's always a tradeoff. the OP's admin (and creekland's philosophy and school system, I guess) says that right now we are prioritizing number of students passing these classes, not number of students excelling or number of students working to competence or learning the material technically covered by the class description. That's fair enough, it's just a different mission. Just to be fair, yes my school district wants actual numbers to be getting better grades and scores on our state tests. I want both better grades/scores and mastery of what I'm teaching. I want to be able to go up to a junior/senior and mention Boyle's Law and have them know what it is vs just a minor part of their 9th grade science class. I want them to turn into adults who have a good grasp on many math/science/life topics up to their level of ability - not folks who could be on some of those internet/TV shows/blogs thinking things like Oxygen is the most abundant element in air... Our school levels students in most classes with Level 3 being higher college level, Level 2 being cc or average college level, & Level 1 being non-college. I adjust my expectations accordingly, but certainly never short a class in favor of higher grades due to less rigorous material. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonflower Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 I get that it works pretty well in a high school setting, where kids are there whether they want to be or not, are not paying for the course, and part of your mandate as their teacher is to ensure their success in the class including finding ways to motivate them to do the reading. I just think college at least used to be different: students aren't required to be there - there's an assumed minimum level of competence, maybe demonstrated through prior testing or completion of prior courses as prerequisites. Ideally you wouldn't have to motivate college students to do the reading for class - they've paid for the class and part of what they're paying for isn't your motivation to capitalize on their monetary investment but guidance on what readings will help them understand the material. They (ideally) shouldn't need to do memory work in class because (ideally) they will have done that outside of class if it is something they need to do to master the material - again, because they're paying for your time not as a high school teacher, which is part babysitter (I did teacher training and the babysitter part was not my forte) and part instructor, but as a college professor, which should be 99% instructor. Ideally. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 2 hours ago, EmseB said: I don't think it's okay, but I have kind of been posting thinking that ship has already sailed. ? Oh, that's true for sure, I don't have any argument with that. But I sometimes get the distinct impression that people are saying it's necessary to hold the line on this because science people might go on to do actual, important things, like fill prescriptions. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 8 hours ago, HeighHo said: Tutoring is an option. In my state the Regents acknowledged that many of the Regents' courses weren't preparing students for college level, and consequently opened tutoring to all students, where previously only urm had free tutoring via the U resources. That bridge was needed - the students did what was required in high school, went the extra mile with prep books to bag the 95+ Regent's Exam score, but couldn't gap fill all of the units their high schools omitted if they didn't have some help with the uncovered units ( a bit difficult with no textbook). Many of them live rural and didn't find competent gap fill help until they found the tutoring center at their college combined with an actual textbook. Another option is based on Thayer Method -- student syllabus has everything laid out on day 1 - reading/media due dates, assignment due dates, supplementary material, course objective. 2. aptitude/prep sorting of sections so that class time is valuable to each and every student. 3. small group projects/periodic opportunties for consolidating material/classwork to allow thinking rather than recording a lecture for later digestion. Pretty hard to explain tough concepts if the students don't have the underlying high school competency. ime lack of sorting means class is worthless for most - they'll open their laptops and start going thru another instructor's recorded lecture or they'll do hw for another class or they will skip if there isn't a textbook/media they can access for reading/media related to course. Students don't "bag a 95 on the Regents" bc they go the extra mile with a prep book. The exams are curved so they are passable by many but also so they are very difficult to get higher grades, especially in the math and science classes not required for a diploma. It is very much like the advice a previous poster gave (I can't remember who it was) to curve the classes so lots of people get Cs but it is much harder to Bs and As. A 95 on the physics, chem or trig exams mean the taker knows the material. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 1 minute ago, unsinkable said: Students don't "bag a 95 on the Regents" bc they go the extra mile with a prep book. The exams are curved so they are passable by many but also so they are very difficult to get higher grades, especially in the math and science classes not required for a diploma. It is very much like the advice a previous poster gave (I can't remember who it was) to curve the classes so lots of people get Cs but it is much harder to Bs and As. A 95 on the physics, chem or trig exams mean the taker knows the material. I think if I had to keep my job this is probably what I would do, but I'd find it very difficult. My consolation would be that any competitive nursing program/pharmD program/med school/residency would not admit someone with a C in chemistry into their program. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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