S/O thread --- NPD

[mom@shiloh]

This is actually a spin-off of two different threads:  the thread about 'having a difficult conversation' and the MIL thread.  I was amazed at how many people here have really difficult people in their lives, and it made me wonder how prevalent NPD is. Then I was lying awake last night, rehashing a volley of conversations that I had with someone yesterday, and my head exploded. (well, not literally. :)This person displayed all the characteristics of NPD.  When I brought up something that bothered me, I received a tirade in the form of a lengthy explanation about why it was my fault and not hers.  She hinted at a previous offense without specifying what it was, and was so deeply offended (please insert massive sarcasm here) that I could ever think ill of her. And, I'm lying in bed last night wondering why I seem to be the only one who thinks this person is a total horse's back end, and seriously, is this all actually my fault?  

So, to all of you who have had to deal with this on a regular basis, (((hugs))))

[gardenmom5]

well - tis true, those with personality disorders are *never* at fault.  it's always someone else.  

my grandmother is dead, but yeah, her mind games made me think I was crazy, and e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. was my fault.    that woman could hold a grudge so long, she didn't know why she was mad, she just was.  and you "owed" her.

[Guest]

I do think it is more common than I once thought. I mean, it is possible even people high up - even leaders of whole countries! - might accurately receive this diagnosis. 

I think one of my SILs fits this description. Or else she’s just a truly terrible person. 

[mom@shiloh]

9 minutes ago, Quill said:

I do think it is more common than I once thought. I mean, it is possible even people high up - even leaders of whole countries! - might accurately receive this diagnosis. 

I think one of my SILs fits this description. Or else she’s just a truly terrible person. 

Are you the only one who thinks that she's a truly terrible person?  

See, I don't think that I'm arrogant enough to believe that I, alone, am the only one who sees through this charade. So, am I actually the one who is the terrible person? 

[mom@shiloh]

That was a rhetorical question, by the way. If you really think that I'm the terrible one, I don't need to know. ?

[fairfarmhand]

They’re quote charming . It can take time to see through these people, but I’d wager that there’s a whole line of people in the past who have been used and discarded and realize now what was up.

[scholastica]

36 minutes ago, Quill said:

I do think it is more common than I once thought. I mean, it is possible even people high up - even leaders of whole countries! - might accurately receive this diagnosis. 

I think one of my SILs fits this description. Or else she’s just a truly terrible person. 

I agree that it seems more common. I wonder if it’s because we just talk about these things more publicly than people used to. Or could it be that more people are just broken these days and this is how it comes out? I don’t know the answers. I’m just musing.

[scholastica]

1 hour ago, mom@shiloh said:

This is actually a spin-off of two different threads:  the thread about 'having a difficult conversation' and the MIL thread.  I was amazed at how many people here have really difficult people in their lives, and it made me wonder how prevalent NPD is. Then I was lying awake last night, rehashing a volley of conversations that I had with someone yesterday, and my head exploded. (well, not literally. :)This person displayed all the characteristics of NPD.  When I brought up something that bothered me, I received a tirade in the form of a lengthy explanation about why it was my fault and not hers.  She hinted at a previous offense without specifying what it was, and was so deeply offended (please insert massive sarcasm here) that I could ever think ill of her. And, I'm lying in bed last night wondering why I seem to be the only one who thinks this person is a total horse's back end, and seriously, is this all actually my fault?  

So, to all of you who have had to deal with this on a regular basis, (((hugs))))

If the person truly is NPD, they will display this pattern over and over. You will notice that everything is about them. It wouldn’t be a one-off. You’ll know over time. Some people can’t take criticism and overreact defending themselves, that’s a different thing. 

[gardenmom5]

13 minutes ago, mom@shiloh said:

Are you the only one who thinks that she's a truly terrible person?  

See, I don't think that I'm arrogant enough to believe that I, alone, am the only one who sees through this charade. So, am I actually the one who is the terrible person? 

I'm the only one who thinks my grandmother had a personality disorder,or that she was a witch of a person. we were raised to think her opinion was the cat's meow, and to do whatever it took to please her. by example/expectation, her opinion was the only one that mattered.   It appalled me how she treated my grandfather.

but - my mother was an only, so there really aren't that many of us.   once you know how everyone get's their assigned roles around a narcissist, you can understand why it's the scapegoat who is most likely to stand back and say "wait a minute . . . . "

my sister was the favorite.  however, so my grandmother could feel important (and my sister indebted), she would "rescue my sister".  which meant she had to undermine her first so she needed rescue.  it was really sick to watch.   

my brother was "the boy/golden child". 

me - i was "a third".  an extra and superfluous. the scapegoat. I was blamed for everything my sister did wrong.   the lamp went  on when I was 13.  (I remember the event clearly).  I sought counseling  - and the counselor narrowed it down (quickly) to my grandmother's treatment of me.   it was like a ball and chain had been removed.

I did get my mother talking - and she did admit when she was growing up she wished an aunt, who'd never had children, was her mother.  mom admitted some of it, but it was a huge paradigm shift for her. but I learned of PD's after mom died.

[LMD]

13 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

They’re quote charming . It can take time to see through these people, but I’d wager that there’s a whole line of people in the past who have been used and discarded and realize now what was up.

This! They are charming and they tend to build up guilt control points by playing martyr and 'helping' you.  Then they move on to new victims. My npd mother has a trail of failed relationships behind her. Marriages, friendships. She has quite a few siblings and sort of cycles through them. When we were still in contact, she rang me after yet another blow up with friends, tearfully saying "I'm starting to wonder if it's me!" Not touching that with a 40ft pole... 

[gardenmom5]

34 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

They’re quote charming . It can take time to see through these people, but I’d wager that there’s a whole line of people in the past who have been used and discarded and realize now what was up.

some people never see through them.  

those closest are the ones who get the full treatment.  spouse, children, siblings.  outsiders rarely see "it" becasue they simply don't have enough contact.  Many have no clue what they're seeing, they think it's just . . . quirks.

dh and his siblings would make many a comment about their mother's . . quirks.  (I don't think she has a personality disorder, though she can certainly be manipulative - she's still hard to handle for the inexperienced.).  their friends, who knew her, thought they were exaggerating. just one story:  mil was going to central america for a time, so sil had some friends move into the family home with her.  mil's visa was delayed a month - so sil went to each of them, apologized profusely, and assure them it was "just for a month".  they only knew her as someone who loved to entertain and seemed so outgoing . . . . . then after living with her for a couple weeks, "when. is. she. LEAVING????"  even now, those friends are the only ones who don't think dh and siblings were exaggerating.  because they actually lived with the woman.

eta: non-related people can drop them when they realize associating with said person isn't pleasant.

Edited September 25, 2018 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

10 minutes ago, LMD said:

This! They are charming and they tend to build up guilt control points by playing martyr and 'helping' you.  Then they move on to new victims. My npd mother has a trail of failed relationships behind her. Marriages, friendships. She has quite a few siblings and sort of cycles through them. When we were still in contact, she rang me after yet another blow up with friends, tearfully saying "I'm starting to wonder if it's me!" Not touching that with a 40ft pole... 

 

we have a saying in our family "why is that eddie?"  (or, why do you think that is?) or iow: DUH!

eddie was a former coworker of dh's.   no one liked him, and he whined about it one day at work.  someone (with a very quick tongue) pipped up "why is that eddie?"

Edited September 25, 2018 by gardenmom5

[mom@shiloh]

This was not a one-time event with this person. Over the years, I have distanced myself more and more, but situations throw us together.

This is her MO:  if she's irritated about something, she talks non-stop, throwing in lots of 'Christianese" to validate herself, and doesn't wait for a response. She surrounds herself with needy people, who she can 'save'. She continually talks about how busy she is, and how wonderful her children are.

By the way, the "offense" that she brought up in our current conversation was something one of my kids said.  Five years ago.  When he was about 13. 

[scholastica]

8 minutes ago, mom@shiloh said:

This was not a one-time event with this person. Over the years, I have distanced myself more and more, but situations throw us together.

This is her MO:  if she's irritated about something, she talks non-stop, throwing in lots of 'Christianese" to validate herself, and doesn't wait for a response. She surrounds herself with needy people, who she can 'save'. She continually talks about how busy she is, and how wonderful her children are.

By the way, the "offense" that she brought up in our current conversation was something one of my kids said.  Five years ago.  When he was about 13. 

You are smart to distance yourself from her. You don’t need that in your life any more than necessary.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mom@shiloh said:

Are you the only one who thinks that she's a truly terrible person?  

See, I don't think that I'm arrogant enough to believe that I, alone, am the only one who sees through this charade. So, am I actually the one who is the terrible person? 

No, I’m pretty sure there are others who think she is a terrible person. My dh, for one. 

We were best friends at one point. But once she stabbed me in the back, I started to realize she had left a lot of previous friends with an aching back. I also remember a time she was railing about another “friend” who had been her friend since childhood. I was inwardly marvelling that this is how she talks about her life-long friend. 

[gardenmom5]

26 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

lol.  I call it 'the noise wall'.  if they let an outside thought in, their entire fabricated universe would implode.  2.5 hours is the record here.  yes, grudges are held forever.   

Sounds like you have the martyr type; I've got an alpha.  Once you see the mask slip and the inhuman look in the eyes you will distance yourself even in situations.  That's good because as they age, the mask drops more often and the outright sneering at you goes full bore if given opportunity.

 

I was given a 50th anniversary photo of my grandparents.  I had to get rid of it.  it was "that" expression.  the one that made me shudder/sent-chills-up-my-spine.

I adored my grandfather, and would have loved one of him.

mine was the martyr type too.  I joked her guilt trips sent postcards.  I called them guilt trips decades before I knew anything about NPD.  and anything you say WILL be used against you.  even an "I love you" would be used against you.

[J-rap]

The first (and only) time I met someone with NPD was my sister's daughter-in-law.  So in my sister's case, it's the opposite.  My sister is about the sweetest mother-in-law I can imagine, who would be a wonderful, loving friend, but her DIL is the one who is, well, a monster.  I couldn't believe the stories my sister was telling me at first.  They sounded absolutely crazy.  Could a person really be like that?  That's when I learned about NPD, and it was on these boards here.  My sister is the scapegoat.  It was a huge relief to my sister when I was able to tell her about NPD and it being a personality disorder.  My sister was starting to think she (herself) was crazy, I think!  She was utterly heartbroken about how she was being treated.  DIL has no living relatives except her mother and three unmarried aunts.  It's quite bizarre.  They all worship her like she's a princess.  When they're together, she literally sits in the middle of a circle and they all sit around her.  

With my parents, she is as sweet as can be, absolutely charming really.  

I steer completely clear of her.  It's one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen.  I feel really sorry for my sister, but at least she doesn't take it personally anymore.

[PrincessMommy]

45 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

Asking about how prevalent it is....hmmmm...I've read this about this topic:  We are all on a spectrum. We all have narcissistic traits to some degree. It's part of what makes us human. It's when you go to the extreme end of the spectrum and you find CHRONIC  lying, manipulating, physical violence, exploitation of others, etc., that it becomes a "disorder". When there is a long-standing pattern of this behavior, and, it affects relationships, there is something wrong. When this person leaves a wake of chaos everywhere they go (hurting others by these manipulative behaviors) there is something wrong. On the other end of the spectrum, you have people who are passive, mild, too selfless, and won't stand up for themselves. Most people are somewhere in the middle".

So how many people are walking around that could actually be diagnosed with a disorder? I know difficult people, but they don't seem to fit the description of an NPD. All my life I've heard people refer to someone as being a narcissist. I didn't know there was such a thing as narcissistic personality disorder until about a year ago.

The others are right. You (an outsider) may not see this at all, but the ones closest to the person get the worst of it. Here's an example: The NPD in my life likes to be viewed in the place of work as deeply honorable, charitable, funny, fun to be around, supportive of others, the one who will right all wrongs and defend people who have been treated badly by other coworkers. These people think the world of this person. NPD person tells these people (and me) that they are like family......they are flattered with compliments. (The NPD does this to fill a need for admiration and this makes them feel important). Then there others at work who (maybe ones who have "slighted"  NPD in some way and who don't buy into the charm) are treated nicely by NPD, but behind their backs, watch out.

SO, see the NPD through the eyes of the sweet coworkers who love this charming person. Now, through that same lens, imagine your surprise if you could be a fly on the wall when, in private, you see lying and manipulation. You see her treating grown adult children in an abusive way. You see raging, a good talking down to. Imagine you can go back in the past and see physical violence to children while in a rage. This sweet person with whom you have bonded.....you just didn't know....and you are shocked.

It's a mess. And it's such an irony that someone who is so concerned with "being a good person" and shaming and hurting others when they don't do "right" and "good" is the same person who will come up with the biggest whoppers if it serves them, or will lie to you or manipulate you. And this person seems comfortable with that, even justified.

So, yes, you have to be close enough to them to see it. After living a life of this, it really makes me paranoid that the sweet person sitting next to me in church might really be a monster. No joking.

But I always try to keep it in the back of my mind that we all have faults, and we all are selfish to some degree. I remind myself that it's really toxic and serious when you throw lying, deceiving, and manipulation (along with violence) into the mix. Of course, a person doesn't have to be NPD to be toxic...I don't mean that exactly. It's just that I think that's when it gets to be at its worst and causes such destruction.

The things right now that one of my siblings is going through.....I wish I could post about it. It's a big steaming pile of mess with the NPD right in the middle. My heart hurts and I don't feel I can do anything to help. ?

Thank you for this.    I'm not sure going by one negative encounter is the best way to approach this subject.  Not that that validates what the person did the the OP.  I would look for patterns.  

I say this as someone who has had "do not provoke the (grand)mama bear" moments (one very recently and I handled it very poorly and I am paying the price).  I don't normally explode but when I do, oh boy.   Perhaps the person in the OP is NPD.  Or, perhaps they had had enough and the OP was just at the wrong place at the wrong time.  Or perhaps the OP was wrong (sorry - saying this very gently and not trying to make a bad situation worse). 

But, I do agree with the OP that it seems like a lot of people have extremely difficult and toxic people in their lives.  Hugs for all of you.  

[BooksandBoys]

I know several very difficult people (my MIL included :-)). But, I only know one NPD. And as others have described, the NPD leaves a swath of destruction behind her. Constantly. I’ve known her for over 20 years, and at this point, the stories aren’t even a little surprising anymore. It’s heartbreaking to watch her destroy her children (and the rest of her family), but I cut contact years ago to protect my own. 

[J-rap]

3 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

What I've read is that a personality disorder is a sum of the person's experiences.  I don't agree with that because of the life-long lack of empathy an NPD has...I think they can be socialized/learn fear of God as a child to the point that they don't kill as a sociopath might, but the total lack of empathy seems to be brain structure.  Even with a childhood of seeing appropriate responses to emotional situations, they don't adopt them unless cloaking as they draw closer to a mark. Literally they do not have the emotions others do.  Anyway, don't waste your time on this. Use the Gray Rock response if needed, but enjoy your life. You only get one.

I don't think it's a sum of a person's experiences either, but I think part of it is how their particular brain interprets their experiences.  I think I've read that some personality disorders often take root in people who are actually extremely emotionally sensitive.  They have extreme emotional reactions to events, and those extreme reactions shape their reality, and then in turn that perceived reality forms a hard shell around their extreme emotions so they don't have to feel them anymore.  (It's too painful or uncomfortable to feel them.)  Often there is a real lack of self-esteem or self-identity as well, and the hard shell is blocking out those too.  I don't know what causes that lack of self-identity so early on though.  

I think what you say about not even seeing appropriate responses to emotional situations (while growing up) is very true...  What do you mean by cloaking?  Do you mean having a shared emotional experience at the same time as someone else?  That's an interesting thought.  I do think there's a brain structure thing involved there.

In my sister's DIL, though, I definitely think a big part of it was also her very real (not just perceived) growing up experiences in a very bizarre setting, where she was treated as royalty.  (I also think her own mother has NPD.)

 

[Soror]

fwiw my MIL is not NPD, I think mostly our personalities clash, we are too alike and too different.

And she is a control freak and acts like I've stolen dh from her and I've never been good enough.

It is very hard to get her approval.

Even more annoying is when I find myself getting sucked into the negativity

 

[mom@shiloh]

17 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

Thank you for this.    I'm not sure going by one negative encounter is the best way to approach this subject.  Not that that validates what the person did the the OP.  I would look for patterns.  

I say this as someone who has had "do not provoke the (grand)mama bear" moments (one very recently and I handled it very poorly and I am paying the price).  I don't normally explode but when I do, oh boy.   Perhaps the person in the OP is NPD.  Or, perhaps they had had enough and the OP was just at the wrong place at the wrong time.  Or perhaps the OP was wrong (sorry - saying this very gently and not trying to make a bad situation worse). 

But, I do agree with the OP that it seems like a lot of people have extremely difficult and toxic people in their lives.  Hugs for all of you.  

Well, I've certainly considered the possibility that I could have been wrong. ?  Even if it had been a one time event, I'd still see red flags.  I asked politely if I had misunderstood something or if she could explain it to me, and that unleashed a tirade which included calling me crazy and bringing up something my teen had said five years ago. The lack of empathy and self-centeredness has been an ongoing pattern though. It had never been as blatant as this, but I'd never even slightly challenged her before, if you can call that a challenge.

[mom@shiloh]

I would agree that all of us are narcisstic to an extent, and it might be helpful to differentiate between leaning more toward narcissism and an actual personality disorder. 

[J-rap]

5 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

What I mean is that the NPD has grown up in an environment with healthy emotional responses demonstrated by the family members.  Other family members do not have a personality disorder, and acquired the socially appropriate responses. NPD only responds with narcissism.  For ex: a death of a close relative  is an opportunity to display superiority, not a situation to offer comfort to the bereaved or for the self to feel sadness....the NPD has no emotional relationship with anyone, and no desire to ...ever in the entire life, even as a child.  A child is hurt accidently, physically, badly...he is an annoyance, not someone to be comforted or tended to or nursed back to good health.

Cloaking is when they use the socially appropriate response to draw closer to the target, once in range,  the sucking of narcissistic supply begins. Cloak and mask are discarded when mark stops playing assigned role.

 

I see.  Thanks for explaining -- that's a horribly creepy but very clear description!  It certainly does seem like a brain structure problem if it's a decent family and everyone else turned out okay.  

[TechWife]

3 hours ago, scholastica said:

If the person truly is NPD, they will display this pattern over and over. You will notice that everything is about them. It wouldn’t be a one-off. You’ll know over time. Some people can’t take criticism and overreact defending themselves, that’s a different thing. 

So, I have a person in my family. I don't see this person regularly, but have somewhat regular phone contact. This is what I have observed over the years:

Every conversation is about her. For example: Constant talking, not listening, always about her opinion, her impressions, her experiences. Everything that happens is detailed as if it was done to her (if she thinks it's negative) or for her (if she thinks it's positive).

If I attempt to relate something that happened to me or someone in my immediate family - she can "one up" the occasion, no matter what it is. For example - the job she used to have as a manager was more important and critical than the job my husband has as a top level technical executive for an international company. Her one trip abroad always tops my husband's stories of his travels, when he has literally been around the world ( as in, when we entered the US yesterday after vacation, the customs agent asked him what he does for a living and then said "I've never seen a passport quite like yours."). When I mentioned that we were table hosts for a company dinner - she said "Well, when we did those, we had top level executive managers as table hosts." I respond "DH is a top level executive," which is met with an abrupt change of subject. My son has several medical issues, but the intermittent, typical childhood medical issues that her children had were much more traumatic, to her way of thinking. No matter what I say, she has a story that can top it, unless she can't, in which case she tries to insert herself into our story.  When, during one hospitalization, she said she wanted to come to town to help us and I refused her offer, she was offended and told other family members I was being selfish.

She constantly lies and/or is wildly inconsistent. Examples: Her oldest daughter is a terrible mother to the grandchildren. Two weeks later, her daughter is wonderful, it's her daughter in law that is terrible to the other grandchildren. Her son can do no wrong. Also: she was a wonderful teenager when she was young - never gave our parents a bit of trouble. Denies things I know happened (like her getting arrested & tried for theft). Says she will do things, then doesn't follow through. Says it took her three hours to drive home from somewhere in a storm, when her daughter who was riding with her says "I don't remember it that way at all. It was only about 30 minutes." I know hundreds of examples. I pretty much don't believe anything she says, even if it's as simple as the price of gasoline, she just seems to make stuff up out of thin air.

Are these NPD traits?

 

 

[Farrar]

I think it's more prevalent than we realized. And that maybe the relaxation of societal rules in various ways - which is good for some aspects of life - has brought out more extreme behavior by people who had these sorts of tendencies before.

I also think there's a LOT of armchair psychologists these days. I don't want to lessen anyone's pain here - some people in this thread and the others referenced have shared some truly horrifying stories. But I've also heard people talk about relatives who were "horrible" and "probably NPD" who simply sounded like they were thoughtless a few times or just had different family norms from the relative sharing the stories. So... I think we're all very quick to diagnose each other these days and many people tend to assume the worst motivations. So... while I think there are a lot of genuine personality disorders on the loose in the world, I also think we're increasingly living in a nation trying to diagnose each other, and that's not so healthy either. 

[TechWife]

45 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I also think there's a LOT of armchair psychologists these days. I don't want to lessen anyone's pain here - some people in this thread and the others referenced have shared some truly horrifying stories. But I've also heard people talk about relatives who were "horrible" and "probably NPD" who simply sounded like they were thoughtless a few times or just had different family norms from the relative sharing the stories. So... I think we're all very quick to diagnose each other these days and many people tend to assume the worst motivations. So... while I think there are a lot of genuine personality disorders on the loose in the world, I also think we're increasingly living in a nation trying to diagnose each other, and that's not so healthy either. 

 

3 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

I disagree. I think we are seeing the enlightment spread, and the disagreement between those who do not wish for others to control their bodies and those who do is  becoming louder and louder.  The times, they are a'changin'.

 

I think these are both valid points that should be taken into consideration.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

I would say mine is a mix of alpha and martyr. 

I have come full circle and now have compassion and feel sorry for this person. Yes, I'm still angry and probably always will be. And it's okay to be angry. It's important to fully see what happened, realize that the NPD person has a true problem, but it doesn't excuse the abuse. It doesn't mean you have to put up with it.

OP, if that person you were talking to is not someone you have to see a lot, that's a really good thing. Maybe it's a good idea to keep it that way. One thing that has helped me a lot is to keep things light and on the surface. I keep visits spaced out. It seems if I visit too often and get too "close" bad things happen. I no longer tell discuss personal things that happen in my family, even if I am upset about something. I don't discuss controversial topics. Just weather, pets, pet food, where to eat lunch, etc. Since I've been doing this, it's amazing how long it's been since I've been at the wrong end of the gun. It really works.

 

I can feel sorry for her - to a degree.  she was very unsophisticated, very unhappy and worked to make those around her unhappy too. she deeply resented her sisters who married men with better incomes. I think she would probably have been happier if she'd never moved to a city, but stayed in the more rural area where she grew up and her very large extended family was (mostly) located.  but she broke her only child/my mother, she did tremendous damage to her grandchildren.  I feel like I learned the nature of evil from her example.

dh had an easy time handling her. . . he'd be excruciatingly cheerful. she was a martyr, she wanted to wallow and he'd always be cheerful.  Oh, you're cancer free after five years - you should be so happy (she really wasn't.  now what would she whine about so people would feel sorry for her?).   if he'd point out the sun in a cloudy sky - she'd imagine a black rain cloud in a clear blue sky.   and she'd hold on to that.

3 hours ago, J-rap said:

The first (and only) time I met someone with NPD was my sister's daughter-in-law.  So in my sister's case, it's the opposite.  My sister is about the sweetest mother-in-law I can imagine, who would be a wonderful, loving friend, but her DIL is the one who is, well, a monster.  I couldn't believe the stories my sister was telling me at first.  They sounded absolutely crazy.  Could a person really be like that?  That's when I learned about NPD, and it was on these boards here.  My sister is the scapegoat.  It was a huge relief to my sister when I was able to tell her about NPD and it being a personality disorder.  My sister was starting to think she (herself) was crazy, I think!  She was utterly heartbroken about how she was being treated.  DIL has no living relatives except her mother and three unmarried aunts.  It's quite bizarre.  They all worship her like she's a princess.  When they're together, she literally sits in the middle of a circle and they all sit around her.  

With my parents, she is as sweet as can be, absolutely charming really.  

I steer completely clear of her.  It's one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen.  I feel really sorry for my sister, but at least she doesn't take it personally anymore.

every person who is close to a NPD's orbit, needs to be able to vent as part of processing and trying to make sense of what is happening.  - and that is exactly the risk those on the inside run - people outside, to whom they vent, thinking *they* are crazy.  or ungrateful.  or a horrible person to say such things about this 'great' person.   what's up is down, what's black is blue, everything is twisted and makes no sense.  you do think you're crazy - I'm glad you were able to help your sister know *It's NOT her!*

your sister's dil is going to have a REALLY hard time when her mother and aunts die/dementia.  they made her this way by treating her as the center of their universe - well, the universe doesn't care.  My sister wrapped so much of her identity in our grandmother.  it was sad when she died.

 

3 hours ago, HeighHo said:

 

What I mean is that the NPD has grown up in an environment with healthy emotional responses demonstrated by the family members.  Other family members do not have a personality disorder, and acquired the socially appropriate responses. NPD only responds with narcissism.  For ex: a death of a close relative  is an opportunity to display superiority, not a situation to offer comfort to the bereaved or for the self to feel sadness....the NPD has no emotional relationship with anyone, and no desire to ...ever in the entire life, even as a child.  A child is hurt accidently, physically, badly...he is an annoyance, not someone to be comforted or tended to or nursed back to good health.

Cloaking is when they use the socially appropriate response to draw closer to the target, once in range,  the sucking of narcissistic supply begins. Cloak and mask are discarded when mark stops playing assigned role.

 

my grandmother's father was an alcoholic.  at least one sister's husband was physically abusive as well as being an alcoholic.  probably more.  another sister's only daughter cut off contact with her mother.  there was a lot of dysfunction in my grandmother's foo. 

when my grandfather died - (I eventually realized)  my grandmother's response at the funeral was more what she thought was expected of the "grieving widow" as opposed to real emotion.  it was like she was (over) acting a role. (drama much?)

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

So, I have a person in my family. I don't see this person regularly, but have somewhat regular phone contact. This is what I have observed over the years:  an

Every conversation is about her. For example: Constant talking, not listening, always about her opinion, her impressions, her experiences. Everything that happens is detailed as if it was done to her (if she thinks it's negative) or for her (if she thinks it's positive).

If I attempt to relate something that happened to me or someone in my immediate family - she can "one up" the occasion, no matter what it is. For example - the job she used to have as a manager was more important and critical than the job my husband has as a top level technical executive for an international company. Her one trip abroad always tops my husband's stories of his travels, when he has literally been around the world ( as in, when we entered the US yesterday after vacation, the customs agent asked him what he does for a living and then said "I've never seen a passport quite like yours."). When I mentioned that we were table hosts for a company dinner - she said "Well, when we did those, we had top level executive managers as table hosts." I respond "DH is a top level executive," which is met with an abrupt change of subject. My son has several medical issues, but the intermittent, typical childhood medical issues that her children had were much more traumatic, to her way of thinking. No matter what I say, she has a story that can top it, unless she can't, in which case she tries to insert herself into our story.  When, during one hospitalization, she said she wanted to come to town to help us and I refused her offer, she was offended and told other family members I was being selfish.

She constantly lies and/or is wildly inconsistent. Examples: Her oldest daughter is a terrible mother to the grandchildren. Two weeks later, her daughter is wonderful, it's her daughter in law that is terrible to the other grandchildren. Her son can do no wrong. Also: she was a wonderful teenager when she was young - never gave our parents a bit of trouble. Denies things I know happened (like her getting arrested & tried for theft). Says she will do things, then doesn't follow through. Says it took her three hours to drive home from somewhere in a storm, when her daughter who was riding with her says "I don't remember it that way at all. It was only about 30 minutes." I know hundreds of examples. I pretty much don't believe anything she says, even if it's as simple as the price of gasoline, she just seems to make stuff up out of thin air.

Are these NPD traits?

 

 

maybe and maybe not.  it could also simply be an extremely competitive person, perhaps even narcissistic (without having a PD) - as they will engage in the type of one  up-man-ship you describe.  (frequently based in their own insecurity and need to feel important).

however, in your descriptions I'm not seeing the control freakish manipulation, and down right undermining people than can literally destroy a person's ability to be functional. or that she sees people in her orbit as literal extensions of herself.  (as though they were an arm or a leg).  that is more typical of NPD.   they always take credit for YOUR successes (since you're "just" an arm or leg)  - so, that your dh hosted a table - a NPD would find a way to take credit for him hosting the table and why SHE should be fawned over that your dh hosted a table.  she wouldn't compete with him - she would usurp his position and make it hers.  

 

eta: I should add - my NPD would either take credit for things going well, (even if you did the opposite of what she told you to do, it was *her* triumph) - or  it was seen as an affront and stealing something my sister deserved, and I did not.  she also loved to chew people out for their mistakes because if they had just listened to her, things would have worked out.  even if you did EXACTLY what she told you to do, you must not have listened to her. 

 

2 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

I guess the above few posts get into the nurture vs nature thing. In my immediate family things weren't normal. They seemed normal on the surface, but they weren't. My NPD had alcoholic parents, one of them an abuser and one an enabler. There is a photo of NPD as a very young child, probably younger than two. In the photo you can see the eyes are  down turned, sad, hollow, and desperate. The other children don't have this look. Maybe this vulnerable child was the perfect target for an unspeakable type of abuse. Another grew to be defiant, constantly beaten.  I can see how this could be the perfect storm to create a personality disorder. Defiant child did grow up to marry a verbally abusive man. In fact, all siblings in that family had dysfunctional marriages, all ending in divorce...except for defiant, physically beaten sibling who remained with abusive man her whole life.

 

same with mine.   and same thing with her siblings. out of ten girls in my grandmother's family - only three had more than zero/one/two children  (and they were having children in the 20's/30's/40's/50's).  only one of those families - would I consider functional - and I'm at a distance.  at least one of her nieces cut off contact her mother.  my grandmother had no problem speaking very ill of said niece, and repeating the horrible things niece said about her mother.   (there's a reason niece cut off her mother.)

Edited September 25, 2018 by gardenmom5

[Farrar]

16 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

I disagree. I think we are seeing the enlightment spread, and the disagreement between those who do not wish for others to control their bodies and those who do is  becoming louder and louder.  People aren't interested in being attacked, physically or verbally , either...they have other things they want to do with their lives.   The times, they are a'changin'.

I don't really disagree with that. No one deserves to be attacked or abused. Everyone should enforce healthy boundaries. I think understanding personality disorders can be a useful lens and tool for understanding why one's relationships or family are dysfunctional or why one has trouble understanding healthy relationships or boundaries. Absolutely. And - like I said - I think there may actually be an uptick in some of the extremes of these behaviors. And I think you're right - we're understanding them better.

But... I'm telling you... I've also experienced an uptick in the number of people who, when they explain why they don't get along with some relative or co-worker or other, uses this terminology to describe them. And sometimes... I mean, you're only getting a tiny slice of the pie, but I've had people tell me about how "horrible" someone is and how diagnosable and... it's like, it sounds like they just forgot about your needs once at Thanksgiving. Or, do you think they maybe just knocked that over by accident? Sometimes it's like, but you just met this new brother's girlfriend or whoever and you've condemned them over one day or weekend of experience? Not everything is part of a grand manipulation plan by people. Surely you've been in a conversation where someone is telling you how wronged they are... and you're like, huh, I'm just getting part of the story and I still think it probably isn't as bad as all this. I think we need to be careful about pathologizing behavior.

I'll add too... one of the ways in which I see people bully each other now is by pathologizing them. Bullies sometimes are the ones who appeal to authority in order to cry foul against people who don't deserve it. For kids, this means setting up other kids to look bad just the moment a teacher or parent comes into view or tattling to a teacher or parent. For adults, I think sometimes the authority in question is psychology and its language, which can make it seem like you're somehow better than and like your behavior is above reproach while someone else's is clinical. I don't think it's healthy to pathologize each other for the most part. It's a bit of a line... if you've been raised in a family by a parent or major authority figure with a personality disorder, coming to that understanding may be necessary for healing and empowerment. But maybe reserve the judgment on that coworker you only interact with once a week or that new sil you only see during the stressful holidays, ya know? There's a way in which, after a few interactions, we put people in boxes where they don't belong and we refuse to let them grow or change from the one thoughtless or unfortunate moment. We create that dynamic. And sometimes they're on the other side pathologizing us, keeping it all going. I feel like I'm seeing this more and more in my interactions with people as we all become more fluent in casual psychological language.

[gardenmom5]

8 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I don't really disagree with that. No one deserves to be attacked or abused. Everyone should enforce healthy boundaries. I think understanding personality disorders can be a useful lens and tool for understanding why one's relationships or family are dysfunctional or why one has trouble understanding healthy relationships or boundaries. Absolutely. And - like I said - I think there may actually be an uptick in some of the extremes of these behaviors. And I think you're right - we're understanding them better.

But... I'm telling you... I've also experienced an uptick in the number of people who, when they explain why they don't get along with some relative or co-worker or other, uses this terminology to describe them. And sometimes... I mean, you're only getting a tiny slice of the pie, but I've had people tell me about how "horrible" someone is and how diagnosable and... it's like, it sounds like they just forgot about your needs once at Thanksgiving. Or, do you think they maybe just knocked that over by accident? Sometimes it's like, but you just met this new brother's girlfriend or whoever and you've condemned them over one day or weekend of experience? Not everything is part of a grand manipulation plan by people. Surely you've been in a conversation where someone is telling you how wronged they are... and you're like, huh, I'm just getting part of the story and I still think it probably isn't as bad as all this. I think we need to be careful about pathologizing behavior.

I'll add too... one of the ways in which I see people bully each other now is by pathologizing them. Bullies sometimes are the ones who appeal to authority in order to cry foul against people who don't deserve it. For kids, this means setting up other kids to look bad just the moment a teacher or parent comes into view or tattling to a teacher or parent. For adults, I think sometimes the authority in question is psychology and its language, which can make it seem like you're somehow better than and like your behavior is above reproach while someone else's is clinical. I don't think it's healthy to pathologize each other for the most part. It's a bit of a line... if you've been raised in a family by a parent or major authority figure with a personality disorder, coming to that understanding may be necessary for healing and empowerment. But maybe reserve the judgment on that coworker you only interact with once a week or that new sil you only see during the stressful holidays, ya know? There's a way in which, after a few interactions, we put people in boxes where they don't belong and we refuse to let them grow or change from the one thoughtless or unfortunate moment. We create that dynamic. And sometimes they're on the other side pathologizing us, keeping it all going. I feel like I'm seeing this more and more in my interactions with people as we all become more fluent in casual psychological language.

I agree with most of this.   there are people who will blow things entirely out of proportion, or a myriad of reasons.  people who, seemingly, more often refuse to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions - so they blame someone else, or come up with some reason why *they* are not responsible.

basic etiquette developed for a reason (it's NOT about making other people comfortable), so there would be a known standard of behavior and what to expect, and how you are expected to behave in different situations.  so, hopefully, that ends with everyone more considerate of others - even if it's just action and not actual thought.

now - it's "do what you want", no matter how adversely it affects another .  say what you think, no matter how unkind (can we please go back to thumper and 'if you can't say nothin' nice, don't say nothin' at all').

some of the people other's want to label - simply have never learned social niceties and have no clue there are (were) social rules.   or came from an abusive background themselves and are trying to learn what is normal social behavior - when the current society is rather schizophrenic on that subject.

 

I have been very grateful for this board - and the things I've learned about NPD/PD's.  they were the last pieces of the puzzle to figuring out the NPD person in my life, and the how's and why's it affected me so much.  It's interesting to hear about the "fleas".

[TechWife]

51 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

maybe and maybe not.  it could also simply be an extremely competitive person, perhaps even narcissistic (without having a PD) - as they will engage in the type of one  up-man-ship you describe.  (frequently based in their own insecurity and need to feel important).

however, in your descriptions I'm not seeing the control freakish manipulation, and down right undermining people than can literally destroy a person's ability to be functional. or that she sees people in her orbit as literal extensions of herself.  (as though they were an arm or a leg).  that is more typical of NPD.   they always take credit for YOUR successes (since you're "just" an arm or leg)  - so, that your dh hosted a table - a NPD would find a way to take credit for him hosting the table and why SHE should be fawned over that your dh hosted a table.  she wouldn't compete with him - she would usurp his position and make it hers. 

eta: I should add - my NPD would either take credit for things going well, (even if you did the opposite of what she told you to do, it was *her* triumph) - or  it was seen as an affront and stealing something my sister deserved, and I did not.  she also loved to chew people out for their mistakes because if they had just listened to her, things would have worked out.  even if you did EXACTLY what she told you to do, you must not have listened to her. 

 

I don't think there's control freakish manipulation. If there is, she hasn't exhibited it around me, which would be odd for someone with NPD, I think.

[GoodGrief]

FWIW, given the nature of the condition coupled with the state of mental health care, it's relatively rare for a person with a personality disorder to get a solid diagnosis and treatment. Toss in the ease of gathering information on the internet, and it IS much more common for people to start to put together the pieces of the confusing puzzle that is life with someone with a personality disorder. However, people are not always accurate in their assessments, it is true. I also know people who likely have a personality disorder themselves grabbing onto that label and misapplying it to others who are displeasing them in some way.

No one would ever deny that my mother was mentally ill, even requiring institutional care for many years. But up until her death, she never got a certain diagnosis despite almost constant contact with the medical community. It is what it is, and family/community members are left trying to work this out without solid guidance.

Edited September 25, 2018 by GoodGrief

[hippiemamato3]

My ex has been diagnosed with both anti-social personality disorder (sociopath) and NPD. I feel like the term may be overused; true medical diagnosis can't be as common as the number of people who claim to know someone with NPD?

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, Indigo Blue said:

Also, keep in mind that lots of people who could be diagnosed with NPD are not. It's abuse that people seem to get away with. If you don't feed your children, or your house is extremely unsanitary, social services can step in and intervene. NPD parents can get away with insidious abuse, because it's virtually invisible to everyone but the one who is being abused. It can even be invisible to other family members such as aunts, uncles, etc. So a lot of this goes completely under the radar, making it hard to truly know how widespread it really is. I think things are changing, and, even though the term gets thrown around loosely these days, more awareness of this type of abuse may come of it. I hope so.

and frequently they dont' even realize what's happening IS abuse.  the are trained to think they are the problem, if only they ___, then the parent would be happy with them.  except - these parents do not give approbation.  

 

I recall trying to convince my sister to stop bending over backwards trying to get grandmama to approve of her.  that she doens't give approval.  "oh but one time she ___ , and it felt so wonderful . . . " thunk thunk thunk -and 99 times out of 100 she rips you to pieces! because heaven forbid she say anything nice!

I bent over backwards to be different as a parent.  one time,1dd brought home a report card with a "b".   I started off with "I don't want to be one of those parents who only focuses on the negative, but (because it was SO out of character for her) - what happened?"   we just laughed at it. it wasn't a big deal and she eventually told me she felt she deserved it.  my grandmother - would have ripped her to shreds.

[gardenmom5]

I do recall visiting with an elderly friend.  she was an adult when she learned about bipolar.   she immediately called her sister and said "I know what's wrong with mother".  she said she never knew what her mother was going to be like when she came  home from school.

so, there is certainly more awareness now.  I think men may be more often formally diagnosed npd because it leads them to committing crimes for which they get ordered to have mental health evaluations. (and acquaintances brother cut the break cable in his daughter's car to keep her at his house) 

npd women are generally much more subtle.

Edited September 25, 2018 by gardenmom5

[LarlaB]

Many books have been written to daughters of NPD mothers which I find interesting.  I’m not terribly concerned with statistics.

Also, NPD is interesting as the victims are in therapy and the NPD would never go.  And if the NPD did go, I am utterly confident in their ability to disguise themselves from the therapist, at least in a group/family therapy setting with a run of the mill psychotherapist.  

Agreed some descriptions I’ve heard here (generally on WTM) don’t sound like NPD to me and more like really difficult people.  However there are several here on WTM who use key phrases and describe behaviors and such that oh so acutely fit in NPD- or at least my experience.  Swirl.  Revision. Drama. Scapegoating. Rage. Gaslighting. It’s quite spectacular and makes the victims feel crazy.  It just hurt or wounded or traumatized, but literally shaken dazed and confused. 

The jacked up family systems and dynamics of NPD is spectacular.  It’s NOT subtle unless you are in denial.  NPDs leave a wide and obvious path of relational destruction in their wake.  Very very few relationships that aren’t work/pay related can survive with an NPD.  

 

[LarlaB]

13 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

 

I agree, that we must be careful with labeling, and I appreciate the comment upthread about the sliding scale of self-centered behavior. There are surely a lot of narcissistic folks who aren’t clinically NPD. 

However, what’s helpful to actually look at is the context. A narcissist can’t exist in a vacuum. If the person in question is causing collateral damage, the people involved need to learn some coping mechanisms to prevent continued hurt. That’s where the focus needs to be. The ability to consider the NPD model and identify one’s place in the framework (golden child, scapegoat, enabler) can be helpful in understanding interactions and determining effective communication strategies and reasonable boundaries. 

 

 

 

 

 

Excellent point.

I highly recommend the book”Stop Caretaking the Borderline/Narcissist”.  It Helped me see once and for all the concept of supplying the narcissist… And how to end the cycle, is essentially cutting off the attention and stop feeding into it.

That book hanged my life  as we are still in distant relationship with MIL… It’s easiest to cut off the relationship with a narcissist, and so we are taking a very hard road. These boundaries have hugely helped keep the nonsense far away. 

[LMD]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

I think it's more prevalent than we realized. And that maybe the relaxation of societal rules in various ways - which is good for some aspects of life - has brought out more extreme behavior by people who had these sorts of tendencies before.

I also think there's a LOT of armchair psychologists these days. I don't want to lessen anyone's pain here - some people in this thread and the others referenced have shared some truly horrifying stories. But I've also heard people talk about relatives who were "horrible" and "probably NPD" who simply sounded like they were thoughtless a few times or just had different family norms from the relative sharing the stories. So... I think we're all very quick to diagnose each other these days and many people tend to assume the worst motivations. So... while I think there are a lot of genuine personality disorders on the loose in the world, I also think we're increasingly living in a nation trying to diagnose each other, and that's not so healthy either. 

I don't disagree with this. 

But, having lived it, the target usually first thinks that they are the crazy one. The first instinct is never to blame the npd, challenging them is to be avoided at all cost. 

The antics are so unbelievable and the dynamics so ingrained and the target so brainwashed that it takes an awful lot of fog to clear before the target even thinks that the npd person might actually be the problem. Outside people don't believe it because, frankly, it is unbelievable. Even my dh didn't really believe me. He didn't think I was lying exactly, he thought it was normal level dysfunction and he found it annoying that I was unable to defy my mother. 10 years in he finally saw a tantrum up close, and he couldn't even explain what had happened. He was speechless.

[GoodGrief]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

Having read more of the thread - the phenomenon of women - mostly mothers - being discussed as having NPD - is something I've noticed as being internet-bound. By that I mean the suggested prevalence in women (mothers) online, far, far outweighs other suggested prevelance (for example, in the DSM) and also outweighs prevalence of discussion IRL.

I can think of a number of reasons for this, both supporting a true greater female prevalence, and against a true greater female prevalence, but we don't really know. Would be interesting to study. 

OTOH, the discussion of male NPD online seems to fit suggested prevelance elsewhere. So....interesting. 

 

People tend to use NPD interchangeably with borderline personality disorder though they are different, of course. I suspect a lot of the women referred to as having NPD likely have BPD, which is more common in females.

[Rosie_0801]

3 hours ago, TechWife said:

I don't think there's control freakish manipulation. If there is, she hasn't exhibited it around me, which would be odd for someone with NPD, I think.

 

Not really.
Either they haven't, because there's no use doing it to you or they have and you haven't put those incidents together to see the pattern. There's a reason People on the Internet distinguish between over and covert narcissists. The covert narcs can be very subtle.

The traits you described are narcissistic traits, but that doesn't mean your person has NPD.

[fairfarmhand]

@Indigo Blue I get it. I’ve had similar interactions with a person in my life and it’s just baffling how sincerely the “hurt” and “devastation” can come across. You really do question your own mind. Recently had a text conversation with this person and being able o read back through it all totally made a huge difference. I could read the manipulation on my phone. I copied it to a document and I have proof besides my memory and yucky feelings that this person is messed up.

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Not really.
Either they haven't, because there's no use doing it to you or they have and you haven't put those incidents together to see the pattern. There's a reason People on the Internet distinguish between over and covert narcissists. The covert narcs can be very subtle.

The traits you described are narcissistic traits, but that doesn't mean your person has NPD.

The NPD in my life has been involved in controversies that have made it to the interwebs over the years.  Complete strangers read about rumors and investigations and immediately vilified her.  People acquainted with her defended her like she was their hero spokesperson.  Finally, FINALLY!, truth came out.  What was clear as day to strangers and family members came as a complete shock to people who had had little to moderate interaction with her.  Actually, it also came as a shock to some close family members who had been successfully gaslit.

They put energy where  they get energy.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, LarlaB said:

Many books have been written to daughters of NPD mothers which I find interesting.  I’m not terribly concerned with statistics.

Also, NPD is interesting as the victims are in therapy and the NPD would never go.  And if the NPD did go, I am utterly confident in their ability to disguise themselves from the therapist, at least in a group/family therapy setting with a run of the mill psychotherapist.  

Agreed some descriptions I’ve heard here (generally on WTM) don’t sound like NPD to me and more like really difficult people.  However there are several here on WTM who use key phrases and describe behaviors and such that oh so acutely fit in NPD- or at least my experience.  Swirl.  Revision. Drama. Scapegoating. Rage. Gaslighting. It’s quite spectacular and makes the victims feel crazy.  It just hurt or wounded or traumatized, but literally shaken dazed and confused. 

The jacked up family systems and dynamics of NPD is spectacular.  It’s NOT subtle unless you are in denial.  NPDs leave a wide and obvious path of relational destruction in their wake.  Very very few relationships that aren’t work/pay related can survive with an NPD.  

 

what is swirl?

when you grow up with the "person whose opinion is the most important in your life" with a PD,, you think it's normal.  sure, you can see other families and wonder why your's can't be that way - but you think these things are normal because it's what you know.  you don't know what healthy is - you can't compare.

think how many people see flags in their future partner before the wedding, but marry them anyway.

3 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

 

Yes, this is true. But when you are a child and you are raised this way, you are unaware. You don't understand what it is. When you get older and the damage is done, you can then heal and see things through a clear lens and handle this person differently. The people involved are often very blind to what is happening until they are older and can stand back and see the whole forest.

ding ding ding.

when you're rasied this way - you are pavlov's dog. you respond the way you have been trained. you don't even realize you have really been brainwashed to behave these ways.  you just do because it's always been this way.

  becasue I was the scapegoat, I'd had a couple experiences (including counseling that opened my eyes to how I felt rejected by the biddy.  while I initially rejected that assessment - she had me go home and write a letter to her.  it all came pouring out and it was like a chain had been cut from my ankle.) that made me step back and say wait a minute. . .

one day I realized my grandmother was grooming me to take over the "caretaker/enabler" role for my sister.  my grandmother, who loved to rescue her because it made her feel so important. she couldn't allow my sister to be self sufficient. it would put an end to the reason for her existence. I put an immediate end to that by refusing the play the game -

that's the ONLY thing you can do, is refuse to play.

3 hours ago, LMD said:

I don't disagree with this. 

But, having lived it, the target usually first thinks that they are the crazy one. The first instinct is never to blame the npd, challenging them is to be avoided at all cost. 

The antics are so unbelievable and the dynamics so ingrained and the target so brainwashed that it takes an awful lot of fog to clear before the target even thinks that the npd person might actually be the problem. Outside people don't believe it because, frankly, it is unbelievable. Even my dh didn't really believe me. He didn't think I was lying exactly, he thought it was normal level dysfunction and he found it annoying that I was unable to defy my mother. 10 years in he finally saw a tantrum up close, and he couldn't even explain what had happened. He was speechless.

this - and it's a HUGE paradigm shift to detach from it.  many people never make that shift as it requires them to completely change their paradigm.   I recall one period of "therapy" - where I was so glad we left town for two weeks.  I LITERALLY felt like I had been picked up, and put in someone else's life. I was confused and disoriented.   the perceptional shift had been so large.

 

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

@Indigo Blue I get it. I’ve had similar interactions with a person in my life and it’s just baffling how sincerely the “hurt” and “devastation” can come across. You really do question your own mind. Recently had a text conversation with this person and being able o read back through it all totally made a huge difference. I could read the manipulation on my phone. I copied it to a document and I have proof besides my memory and yucky feelings that this person is messed up.

my sister once gave my grandmother a letter about how she was having a really hard time, and just needed some space.  the whole thing was about my sister - grandmother immediately called her about how hurt she was, etc. etc. etc.  she also hid the letter next to her chair, so she could reread it and wallow in her martyrdom. 

my siblings still dont' see her for who she really was.  they might see quirks - but they dont' comprehend just how destructive she was.

[gardenmom5]

I think it also takes a certain ruthlessness to be able to ignore the whiny protests of the PDer when you detach.  being able to say "no", and mean it, is not something PDs allow in their "victims"  - many of whom they raise/are exposed to, from infancy.

[gardenmom5]

5 minutes ago, StellaM said:

. People aren't their personality disorders. We don't call people with anxiety 'anxiousers' or bipolar 'bipolarites'. I know this is a touchy thing because so many of you have been abused by people with personality disorders ( I mean, heck, me too...mum with BPD as a result of maternal loss trauma...physical, emotional and verbal abuse for years) but can I please request, for the sake of the young women out there with BPD, that we don't refer to them as their disorder ? People with personality disorders is so much better. It's not because I care about the people who are narcissists - it's because a whole lot of intergenerational suffering can be reduced if we get people with BPD into treatments, and stigma is a barrier to treatment.

bit of a mouthful.  pwpd?

[LarlaB]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

what is swirl?

when you grow up with the "person whose opinion is the most important in your life" with a PD,, you think it's normal.  sure, you can see other families and wonder why your's can't be that way - but you think these things are normal because it's what you know.  you don't know what healthy is - you can't compare.

think how many people see flags in their future partner before the wedding, but marry them anyway.

 

 
My DH & I refer to the NPD swirl meaning "up is down, down is left; lots of drama/moving pieces; a feeling of chaos and unpredictable behavior" when interacting with the NPD individual.  Kind of like Pigpen in Peanuts with his cloud of dust, I feel like the NPD person has a cloud surrounding them.  Energetically and emotionally.   I have lost my bearings more than a few times, I'm sad to say.   

My comments RE denial were referencing grown adults, not dependant children.  Obviously we only know what we know when we are children.  I was referencing those in my life who are adult children of a parent with NPD-  educated adults who have a lot of life & relationship experience, well read and well travelled.  These adults are parents themselves and still defend and dismiss atrocious NPD behavior.  IMHO, that's denial motivated by fear of losing 'family'.   Even when confronted with obvious facts, they deny, reframe and excuse the NPD and join in the swirl of chaos- they are still controlled by NPD parent and at core then enable and feed the supply. 

Additionally, my comment was that true NPD can't hide for too long from those close to them.  You can't miss it if you are willing to see it.    NPD behavior can be subtle I suppose, but the patterns of golden/devaluing, plentiful fractured relationships, enormous ego and lack of empathy is pretty obvious.

[gardenmom5]

1 minute ago, LarlaB said:

 
My DH & I refer to the NPD swirl meaning "up is down, down is left; lots of drama/moving pieces; a feeling of chaos and unpredictable behavior" when interacting with the NPD individual.  Kind of like Pigpen in Peanuts with his cloud of dust, I feel like the NPD person has a cloud surrounding them.  Energetically and emotionally.   I have lost my bearings more than a few times, I'm sad to say.   

My comments RE denial were referencing grown adults, not dependant children.  Obviously we only know what we know when we are children.  I was referencing those in my life who are adult children of a parent with NPD-  educated adults who have a lot of life & relationship experience, well read and well travelled.  These adults are parents themselves and still defend and dismiss atrocious NPD behavior.  IMHO, that's denial motivated by fear of losing 'family'.   Even when confronted with obvious facts, they deny, reframe and excuse the NPD and join in the swirl of chaos- they are still controlled by NPD parent and at core then enable and feed the supply. 

Additionally, my comment was that true NPD can't hide for too long from those close to them.  You can't miss it if you are willing to see it.    NPD behavior can be subtle I suppose, but the patterns of golden/devaluing, plentiful fractured relationships, enormous ego and lack of empathy is pretty obvious.

a toxic cloud of dust.  I can think of a few who just being in the same room - drive my blood pressure up.

children who grow up with this - often become entrapped adults who do'n't escape.  they've been trained to respond to the chosen stimuli - they can only escape if they break that training.  and sometimes that means cutting of your entire family because everyone else chooses to stay with the toxic person.    adults who marry into it are more likely to get the heck out.

I agree, once you know the signs - you can't miss it.   even when there are those who will swear what a great person they are, because these people can be very charming.  just stay alert.

[LarlaB]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

. People aren't their personality disorders. We don't call people with anxiety 'anxiousers' or bipolar 'bipolarites'. I know this is a touchy thing because so many of you have been abused by people with personality disorders ( I mean, heck, me too...mum with BPD as a result of maternal loss trauma...physical, emotional and verbal abuse for years) but can I please request, for the sake of the young women out there with BPD, that we don't refer to them as their disorder ? People with personality disorders is so much better. It's not because I care about the people who are narcissists - it's because a whole lot of intergenerational suffering can be reduced if we get people with BPD into treatments, and stigma is a barrier to treatment.

I think its an internet shorthand that has caught on because typing 'MIL who has narcissistic personality disorder' is a lot and to try to shorten it to and just say "narcissistic MIL" isn't nearly specific enough as I'm wanting to qualify that my situation is not a run of the mill narcissistic person- its an individual who displays a specific set of characteristics.  

I don't really think anyone believes any person is a disease or disorder.  Like alcoholic grandfather. Or abusive FIL. Or suicidal friend.  Or psychopathic neighbor.  Or sex addict BIL.  NPD is just all caps and might seem more sinister or more like a LABEL to you, but to me (and my perception is that for most) its just a qualifier or description of behavior- not equating a person with a disease. 

And IRL I say "MIL exhibits characteristics of Narcissistic Personality Disorder" and everyone looks at me crazy because they have never ever heard of it.  

[sweet2ndchance]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

. People aren't their personality disorders. We don't call people with anxiety 'anxiousers' or bipolar 'bipolarites'. I know this is a touchy thing because so many of you have been abused by people with personality disorders ( I mean, heck, me too...mum with BPD as a result of maternal loss trauma...physical, emotional and verbal abuse for years) but can I please request, for the sake of the young women out there with BPD, that we don't refer to them as their disorder ? People with personality disorders is so much better. It's not because I care about the people who are narcissists - it's because a whole lot of intergenerational suffering can be reduced if we get people with BPD into treatments, and stigma is a barrier to treatment.

 

I remember reading somewhere that Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder are the only disorders where therapists will end up treating everyone the personality disordered person comes into contact with but never the person with NPD or BPD themselves. Because remember they aren't the problem, everyone else is.

If forced into treatment, especially something like marriage counselling or family counselling, watch out. The person with NPD/BPD will turn on the charm and charisma like a light switch. I watched my now ex-husband do this when the military forced him into marriage counselling after a domestic violence incident. They are experts at gaslighting and manipulation and cause you to question your own memories and even your sanity at times. Hence the reason those closest to a narcissist usually need mental health help just as much as the narcissist themselves.

The problem is, not many narcissists are willing to look at themselves introspectively and decide that they need to seek a help. Someone who doesn't see a need to seek help won't be helped even if that help is forced. They will use it as a means to seek martyrdom or yet another way of seeking narcissistic supply. What could be better for a narcissist than an mental health expert reinforcing the idea in their head that they really are this wonderful person and they have been wronged when the mental health expert doesn't realize they have been manipulated by their patient?

I was raised by a NPD and a BPD. I married a NPD because it was what I knew and it seemed normal to me. I have severed all ties with all three of them. I've have been in years of therapy and still am in therapy. I do agree that the term narcissist is thrown around a bit too lightly. A self-centered person is a pain to be around but are relatively harmless otherwise. A narcissist lures others in with their charm and then crushes those closest to them in order to feed their ego. Huge difference there. If you are simply left wondering how someone could be so self centered, then the person might be a narcissist or they might just be a jerk with no manners. If every time you encounter this person you are left questioning yourself about what really happened and feel like you've been spun on a carnival ride of emotions, it is very likely this person is a narcissist or has some other personality disorder.

[Shoeless]

I don't know if any of the tricky people in my life have diagnosable NPD.  My MIL has a mental health issue that is diagnosed and treated.  She does the best that she can, and while she makes me nuts sometimes, she's not malicious. She's just exhausting and unreliable. And sometimes melodramatic.

As for the other difficult people in my life, there's only one that I can say absolutely has some sort of personality disorder.  It's way above my pay grade to say which one it is.  Maybe Histrionic Personality Disorder?  Maybe NPD?  I'm not sure.  I do know that dad's 3rd wife, (my 2nd stepmother), has left a trail of relatives that refuse to talk to her now or did in the past.  Both of her kids stopped talking to her for a year or two.  She has siblings that won't talk to her.  Her former in-laws won't talk to her.  Now my family won't talk to her, (except for one baffling sibling who is "trying to be the bigger person" for reasons I don't understand.  Hello, sibling!  Dad's divorcing the nightmare!  You don't have to talk to this woman!).  

My 1st stepmother was an insecure, self-absorbed bully, with a manipulative streak.  She'd lie and scream and cry if it suited her purposes.  She didn't think it was wrong to do any of that if she got her way, because she was right and everyone else was wrong until they agreed with her.  She had a chronic, life-threatening illness and admitted to me that she often used her illness to get her kids (my half-siblings) to do what she wanted, under the guise of "I may not be here that much longer, and it would mean so much to me if you came for Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Years/Your Cousin's Wedding/Whatever".  I found that utterly horrifying. Of course, she did such a great job of trashing my image to my father and half-siblings, they'd never believe me if I told them what she said.  It's probably why she admitted it to me.  Who'd believe me anyway? She painted me as a manipulative liar for years. 

I remember being at her funeral service, and they asked for people to speak up about her.  Her closest relatives and allies kept talking about how she was so patient and kind and never complained about being ill, despite how much it wore on her.  I looked around and thought "Am I at the right funeral?!  What are they talking about?! She told me she liked the attention from being sick because it meant she could get people to do anything she wanted!  She was anything *but* kind to me, unless there was an audience!"

I still can't figure out what my mother's mental health issue is.  Again, it's above my pay grade.  She once told me that she was diagnosed as bipolar when she was in high school.  But she also told me that her father forbade her from getting any sort of therapy, so I don't know how she'd get a diagnosis in the first place.  She also refuses to see a doctor now.  But everyone in her family lies and cries and screams about each other and how they've all been done wrong.  You can't believe what any of them say.  The truth is probably in there somewhere, if you combine all the stories, but I can't make sense of it.  I've stopped trying. 

My dad has terrible taste in women. ?