Camp Question #2

[bodiesmom]

deleted

Thank you, Hive. I mean a sincere, genuine, thank you. 

 

[bagel270]

I would not trust the leadership anymore. That's way too large of an age range. It's hard enough to kids to stand up to peers, never mind a 5 or 7 year age difference. More supervision needs to be in place if children with a documented history are attending. Like an adult who doesn't sleep or something.

[SKL]

This is clearly against the rules.

They wouldn't even let my daughters (then age 9?) sleep in the same bunk at AHG camp.

A "documented history" of the behavior you describe should clearly be reported and lead to discipline.  At least some of that behavior would be wrong at any camp, regardless of religious beliefs.

[egao_gakari]

If I knew it was known to leadership and not being taken seriously? I would remove my daughter from that group toot sweet and report it to the umbrella organization if there is one. That is absolutely inappropriate and if it were a 16-year-old boy and and 11-year-old girl it would be perfectly obvious to everybody and the 16-year-old would be the one who was out of the organization. Goodness.

[almondbutterandjelly]

I would raise holy heck.

[wathe]

Are you suggesting a sexual assault took place?  What are the laws for consent to sexual activity between minors in your state?  Here, minors under 14 more than 2 years apart in age cannot legally consent, and sexual activity between them would be legally considered assault by the older minor.   This would be a police matter. 

 

 

 

[skimomma]

As I stated in the other thread, I have deep issues with AHG policy.

However, I would have a BIG problem with several aspects of this situation.  The age range is far too wide and that alone would prevent me from leaving my kid at this camp unless there were multiple adults in the cabin at all times.  Two years is about the most ages should span in a camp large enough to accommodate it.  If not large enough, background-checked adults should be supervising at ALL times. I also feel campers with a history of inappropriate behavior and the other items you listed should not necessarily be banned from the camp but should be very closely supervised and certainly not housed in a room with other children years younger than her with no adults supervising.

The trouble with this type of thing is that often "documented history" does not mean "guilty."  And there are plenty of kids under the radar who could/would harm other campers.  Any camp that plans to stay open would best make sure campers are well supervised at all times. 

[wathe]

As a parent I would be all over this. 

[Katy]

I wouldn't let my child go to a camp where the age range of bunk mates was more than 2 years apart. I would greatly prefer within 1 year.

I would call the police, child protective services, and then I would file a formal complaint with the parent organization.  Then I would probably complain either to a reporter I trusted or in an open social media post.

 

[bodiesmom]

I'm choosing not to share what my personal involvement is in this situation until I can form a coherent reply. 

However, some details...

As far as we know, nothing physical happened. 

[SKL]

So you're pretty sure it was only "grooming" at this point?  I think many readers are assuming it was assault.  I don't think being in the same bed is illegal, but I'm certain it isn't allowed at AHG camp.

Also agreeing that the age range is too wide, but I don't know if they have rules about that.

[bodiesmom]

This is absolutely, in my opinion, grooming, predatory behavior. 

Her documented history is full of what I would absolutely call grooming behavior.

I was told by my leadership that I wasn't allowed to use that word. 

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

This is absolutely, in my opinion, grooming, predatory behavior. 

Her documented history is full of what I would absolutely call grooming behavior.

I was told by my leadership that I wasn't allowed to use that word. 

Well ... I just took the KEYS training and your leadership is wrong.  They need to be reported IMO.

[SKL]

Another point ... you might be a mandated reporter and if so, this sounds like it might need reporting ... so give that some thought.

[bodiesmom]

While I process this, and work on forming more replies, could I beg you ladies for prayer? I'm pleading for prayer

[Lady Florida.]

18 minutes ago, skimomma said:

As I stated in the other thread, I have deep issues with AHG policy.

However, I would have a BIG problem with several aspects of this situation.  The age range is far too wide and that alone would prevent me from leaving my kid at this camp unless there were multiple adults in the cabin at all times.  Two years is about the most ages should span in a camp large enough to accommodate it.  If not large enough, background-checked adults should be supervising at ALL times. I also feel campers with a history of inappropriate behavior and the other items you listed should not necessarily be banned from the camp but should be very closely supervised and certainly not housed in a room with other children years younger than her with no adults supervising.

The trouble with this type of thing is that often "documented history" does not mean "guilty."  And there are plenty of kids under the radar who could/would harm other campers.  Any camp that plans to stay open would best make sure campers are well supervised at all times. 

I wouldn't be concerned about the age range itself but I'd definitely have an issue with them bunking together. When ds was in Campfire even the tents were separated by age group. There was usually a family area for parents but the kids pitched their tents with their age group. I'd be concerned about any camp that puts 16 year old and 11 year old campers together. Even if the older kids were supposed to be mentors or teen supervisors of some sort I'd expect there to be only one or two teens and several adults in with the younger ones.

Wait, I just reread your OP. Nine year olds in with sixteen year olds? No way.

[skimomma]

8 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

I wouldn't be concerned about the age range itself but I'd definitely have an issue with them bunking together. When ds was in Campfire even the tents were separated by age group. There was usually a family area for parents but the kids pitched their tents with their age group. I'd be concerned about any camp that puts 16 year old and 11 year old campers together. Even if the older kids were supposed to be mentors or teen supervisors of some sort I'd expect there to be only one or two teens and several adults in with the younger ones.

Wait, I just reread your OP. Nine year olds in with sixteen year olds? No way.

 

Yeah.  It's the bunking with that age span is a concern with me.  Most camps have a large age span camp-wide, and that is fine.  It is when there is any potential of being unsupervised....because even counselors sleep, that age ranges need to be tight.

[prairiewindmomma]

58 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

Trigger warning....

No hidden agenda, I promise. 

This is sensitive material so I may delete. Please don't quote.

Suppose you sent your girl to an overnight camp. She stayed in a room with 9 other girls, all with their own separate bunks. Ages within each room ranged between 9-16. 

The first night, it is discovered that your 11 year old was coaxed into the bed of a 16 year old after all the other girls went to sleep. Your 11 year old was then discovered to also have gone outside the dorm room to "look at stars".

You then happen by the knowledge that this 16 year old girl has a documented history of inappropriate behaviors in the last 9 months which involve inappropriate texts sent to fellow scouts (including pictures), persistent invasion of personal space, intimidation of younger girls, emotional manipulation, etc. In other words, this girl has a documented pattern of behavior sexual in nature (I'm not putting further details out there). 

This was NOT my daughter. 

If you discovered that this happened to your daughter, and that leadership knew about this pattern of behavior, what would you do?

Unlike the other thread I started, I'm asking you to not only be honest, but gentle. I'm begging you. 

 

What would I do? I would make a formal, written complaint to the camp director (cc'd to national), pull my kid from camp, and be calling national directly letting them know that a formal written complaint about the camp was made and that they will be receiving a copy by mail. I would also let them know of the pattern of previous behavior that was ignored by local leadership.That's a safety concern, period. 

[egao_gakari]

Yes, all of what you're sharing sounds like grooming behavior, and shame on the leadership for Orwelling you. My understanding is that there is a difference between a "concern" and an "allegation" when reporting. You can call police or CPS and let them know that you have a concern--I would say a concern about the leadership's handling of a questionable situation--and they'll take it from there. My training for children's ministry at church said, essentially, when a child's safety is at risk, the regular rulebook about dealing with things privately/locally goes out the window. You go to the authorities first, and you give no heads-up to the person you're reporting. 

Now, CPS can't always help if they can't find any solid evidence, so an investigation may go nowhere. That's why I would also be telling every member I thought would listen that I'm leaving the organization, I recommend they do the same, and here's why. It requires a kind of mental toughness that I hope I'll have if I ever need it. I'm definitely praying for you, and wish you weren't being put in this situation.

[catz]

I think it is super inappropriate than 9-16 year olds would even be bunking together.  If that were necessary, I'd expect like at least 2 leaders to bunk in with the group. 

I agree with prairiewindmomma's thoughts on response.  And I would report to possibly CPS or Police depending on exactly what happened.  It's  likely my kid would no longer be participating.  

[AmandaVT]

31 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

What would I do? I would make a formal, written complaint to the camp director (cc'd to national), pull my kid from camp, and be calling national directly letting them know that a formal written complaint about the camp was made and that they will be receiving a copy by mail. I would also let them know of the pattern of previous behavior that was ignored by local leadership.That's a safety concern, period. 

 

No counselor in the cabin? 

I'd do what prairiewindmomma would do, whether my kid was one of the ones affected or not. Not safe.

[gardenmom5]

this girls inappropriate behavior was known - and she wasn't properly supervised.  I'd get a lawyer, file a complaint with appropriate authorities, and purse to make sure this doens't happen again, and the organization/girl's-family would be paying any counseling bills required - even if it's to determine the child wasn't adversely affected..   this crap keeps happening because those in the know, who have the power to do something - don't stop it.  and I'm NOT talking about the parents of the victims.

but I'm angry becasue I was molested by teens - and never got support.  the 16 yo isn't a victim - she's the perp.  (fine if she gets the help she needs - and has never gotten, but that ship has sailed and now she is going after younger girls.)

 

[Tanaqui]

Unless this is a very small camp, I also think it's strange to bunk such a wide age range together. Forget about appropriateness, most 16 year olds don't want to hang out with 9 year olds for long periods of time!

If this child was known to the camp to be a problem, then she should not have been allowed to attend, at least not without a lot of special accommodations. She certainly should not have been rooming with more vulnerable kids. If the camp really is so small that they have to lump all the kids together regardless of age then she should've been in her own, private accommodations. (That might have been best even if they were grouped by age.)

What is camp leadership doing about this situation now, besides telling you not to call it grooming? They ought to have alerted child services and sent this older child home. If they haven't done this then YOU need to do it, and also contact whatever higher ups and/or accreditation agencies are relevant to this camp. I would also suggest that the parents of the younger child contact a lawyer about this.

[bodiesmom]

~

 

 

 

[bodiesmom]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

this girls inappropriate behavior was known - and she wasn't properly supervised.  I'd get a lawyer, file a complaint with appropriate authorities, and purse to make sure this doens't happen again, and the organization/girl's-family would be paying any counseling bills required - even if it's to determine the child wasn't adversely affected..   this crap keeps happening because those in the know, who have the power to do something - don't stop it.  and I'm NOT talking about the parents of the victims.

but I'm angry becasue I was molested by teens - and never got support.  the 16 yo isn't a victim - she's the perp.  (fine if she gets the help she needs - and has never gotten, but that ship has sailed and now she is going after younger girls.)

 

YES!!!

The mom of the girl involved in the latest incident has a brother whose life was destroyed because of what happened to him at a scout camp when he was her daughter's age. Even though she is confident nothing physical happened, she is an absolute mess.

[gardenmom5]

the coordinator is setting this organization up for a lawsuit - how many people ignored (and even covered up for) larry nassar? (he's back in the news)   now, their heads are rolling and the orgs they represent are being sued.

the local leadership isn't doing anything - i'd go to national, and lawyer up and call the cops.

 

eta: as mom was telling her woe is my dd story - did she say if she's ever bothered to get her dd help?  'cause it sounds like she hasn't.   she's cheated her dd, and now her dd is grooming little girls.

[Tanaqui]

Oh, god. They're lucky nothing worse happened! You need to escalate this as far as you can. They tried to stop you from filing an incident report?? An incident happened! You reported it! How many people have they stopped from reporting things that happened? No way to tell, is there?

(Incidentally, I'm not at all surprised that they outright lied to you about having told the leaders. I, sadly, expect this sort of behavior. My rule of thumb is "Trust, but verify", because some people are lying liars and they lie, trusting that nobody will ever check. Whenever I've failed to check a statement like that, I've always regretted it.)

[bodiesmom]

3 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Unless this is a very small camp, I also think it's strange to bunk such a wide age range together. Forget about appropriateness, most 16 year olds don't want to hang out with 9 year olds for long periods of time!

If this child was known to the camp to be a problem, then she should not have been allowed to attend, at least not without a lot of special accommodations. She certainly should not have been rooming with more vulnerable kids.

What is camp leadership doing about this situation now, besides telling you not to call it grooming? They ought to have alerted child services and sent this older child home. If they haven't done this then YOU need to do it, and also contact whatever higher ups and/or accreditation agencies are relevant to this camp. I would also suggest that the parents of the younger child contact a lawyer about this.

Once I discovered that coordinator didn't share this with fellow leaders, mom and I approached her. She dismissed us and added that mom's daughter needs to learn to say no and also implied that she should get her daughter into a self-defense class. I can't even.....

So she and I decided to go to camp director. Camp director was very alarmed. She went to speak with Coordinator. I don't know what coordinator said, but I do know she must have dismissed our concerns and downplayed the girl's history because when we all met again, Camp Director's alarmed demeanor had faded. We were told she would remain in room and a leader would camp outside the door at night. 

I was then verbally attacked for going to camp director. I had to leave to come home.

I am still shaking.

[bodiesmom]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

the coordinator is setting this organization up for a lawsuit - how many people ignored (and even covered up for) larry nassar? (he's back in the news)   now, their heads are rolling and the orgs they represent are being sued.

the local leadership isn't doing anything - i'd go to national, and lawyer up and call the cops.

 

eta: as mom was telling her woe is my dd story - did she say if she's ever bothered to get her dd help?  'cause it sounds like she hasn't.   she's cheated her dd, and now her dd is grooming little girls.

It is my impression that she is in a lot of therapy, but I don't know for sure. 

And I kept telling my husband this after each time coordinator downplayed it-this is a huge lawsuit waiting to happen. 

[Tanaqui]

Document and escalate - and by all means, share ALL this information with the mother of the younger child. If it takes a lawsuit to make changes, then that's that. If they shut down over this, at least they're not harming any other child with their outright corrupt negligence.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

eta: as mom was telling her woe is my dd story - did she say if she's ever bothered to get her dd help?  'cause it sounds like she hasn't.   she's cheated her dd, and now her dd is grooming little girls.

 

Yeah, I was rolling my eyes hard at that. I'm sorry about her kid's situation, I really am - but if you know that your child has this problem, then there are things they can't be allowed to do. That might include summer camp, if they aren't willing to accommodate her special needs.

[Lisa R.]

Isn't the camp director a mandatory reporter? Isn't anyone else involved a mandatory reporter, as well? Hasn't this already past the point of filing a CPS report? 

When organizations see abuse and  try to "handle it themselves",  perpetrators are often protected and victims are not. This is what has happened. 

This needs to be reported to CPS. You're all in over your head.

[bodiesmom]

3 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Oh, god. They're lucky nothing worse happened! You need to escalate this as far as you can. They tried to stop you from filing an incident report?? An incident happened! You reported it! How many people have they stopped from reporting things that happened? No way to tell, is there?

no, there isn't. 

I have no idea if anything was shared with her by other parents or what not.

Wait! I stand corrected. 

Another new girl left the troop in November. Mom told coordinator it was because she didn't feel her daughter was being protected from what she called...gah I forget her term, but basically dangerous behavior. I remember being bothered over how Coordinator labeled mom as overprotective when she shared this with me.

[gardenmom5]

it may be harsh- but I hope that coordinator gets her patootie sued and looses her house.  she's playing with CHILDREN's lives!   she can have all the compassion for the 16 yo she wants - but NOT at the risk of any other person.

 

and blaming a child for being a victim . . . outrageous.  I'd contact national - and I'd give a VERY DETAILED fact based letter of everything that happened.  including the "oversight" of the coordinator in not passing along information after she said she would - and that lack of information put children at risk.

[bodiesmom]

1 minute ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Yeah, I was rolling my eyes hard at that. I'm sorry about her kid's situation, I really am - but if you know that your child has this problem, then there are things they can't be allowed to do. That might include summer camp, if they aren't willing to accommodate her special needs.

Funny you said this- I voiced my concern that this girl was going to camp without mom. I was told that "a lot of strings had to be pulled" in order to get her there. I was told this after all this went down. WHAT????

[bodiesmom]

3 minutes ago, Lisa R. said:

Isn't the camp director a mandatory reporter? Isn't anyone else involved a mandatory reporter, as well? Hasn't this already past the point of filing a CPS report? 

When organizations see abuse and  try to "handle it themselves",  perpetrators are often protected and victims are not. This is what has happened. 

This needs to be reported to CPS. You're all in over your head.

Here is what I was told:

since there is no documentation or proof of her physically touching anyone in a "harming" manner, there isn't cause for alarm or any further lines of protection

since there was no evidence of anything physical happening between her and 11 year old that night, this will be treated as a 1st offense minor infraction

[Tanaqui]

This is what you were told by child services!?

[Catwoman]

Call CPS and provide them with all of the information you told us about here. Stress that this is urgent.

You need the help of outside authorities because it’s clear that nothing will be done otherwise.

[bodiesmom]

2 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

This is what you were told by child services!?

No. No authorities have been involved.

This is what was told to me (and the mom of the 11 year old girl) by our coordinator and the camp director 

[TravelingChris]

My youngest was in Boy Scout venture crew traveling when she turned 18.  They had to do all sorts of modifications as to where everyone would sleep because she was 18 but could not sleep with adult leaders, nor with younger scouts (youngest allowed would have been 14 most likely).  That age group range is too much and while I while I would not have been so anxious about going outside to see stars, mainly because I could see that as a potential solution if child was acting up and wouldn't go to sleep, the sharing of the bed would be way too over the line.

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, bodiesmom said:

No. No authorities have been involved.

This is what was told to me (and the mom of the 11 year old girl) by our coordinator and the camp director 

 

That’s ridiculous. They just don’t want you to make trouble for them. Call CPS. 

[Tanaqui]

Quote

This is what was told to me (and the mom of the 11 year old girl) by our coordinator and the camp director 

 

Oh, well, they can be safely ignored. They obviously care more about covering their butts than anything else.

[bodiesmom]

Just now, Catwoman said:

 

That’s ridiculous. They just don’t want you to make trouble for them. Call CPS. 

But I have no proof.

All I have are the incident reports I filed, none of which I actually witnessed. 

[Tanaqui]

So what if you don't have proof? You don't need proof. It's CPS' job to get proof. Your job is to alert them to a potential incident.

[Caroline]

You need to call CPS. If you live where Scout leaders are mandated reporters, you probably were required by law to report it within 24 hours of learning about the incident. Reporting it to the camp leadership is not enough to protect you from prosecution. It doesn’t matter if you have proof. That is the job of CPS. You need to report that you have reason to suspect that a child was abused. 

[TechWife]

 Call anyway. It’s their job to investigate and find proof, not yours. You do not have to have proof to report. Report, report, report. 

[scoutingmom]

It is time to call child protective services and the police... where I live you would be considered a manditory reporter but even if you were not....  this is going to end badly, but it could be extremely badly.  AFTER you have contacted those authorities, inform the national level of the organization.

Write down all the information you can think of.  I think you said your daughter had received texts and pictures... did you keep copies?  Note down people who have quit recently... especially the one whose mother commented...

I hate to say this but you are not going to be popular with the local organization.  I have done this fight.  It isn't fun.  It IS vital that you do it. 

 

HUGS

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, bodiesmom said:

But I have no proof.

All I have are the incident reports I filed, none of which I actually witnessed. 

 

First of all, you don’t need proof. Give them the incident reports and fill them in on any other details you know, and let them decide how’ve to handle it.

Secondly, it seems like you’re hesitant to call CPS, but how will you feel when you find out that the girl has molested another girl (or multiple girls) at camp? Sure this is uncomfortable for you, but it will be DEVASTATING to the girls who are molested because no one took action to protect them.

Protect those girls. Call CPS. Immediately.

[prairiewindmomma]

Without quoting what you're about to delete, you've now crossed over the line into mandated reporter. I reiterate my above point about contacting national, *as part of the process* and all of what you shared above would be in the letter that would be going to camp director and national.

I would then resign my leadership post, and pull my kid from the organization. Full stop.

FWIW, when I have gone to BSA training in three states, every regional director personally posted their cell phone number and asked that they be called any time night or day should something happen *AND* that my first response should be to contact authorities.  There is very clear, bright line training on the point.  This would've stopped at the texting inappropriate pictures. That is a clear offense, and consequences would've been instituted then.  Compassion, but consequences.

Also, fwiw, we don't allow children more than 2 years apart in age to tent together unless they are siblings (and siblings only in that tent). Adults tent in earshot, but separately, and the only adult/child tenting allowed is between parent/child (with no non-siblings in the same tent).

 

 

[gardenmom5]

the worst case scenario is cps has a record the next time someone calls them.