Do you know any Tiger Mom's?

[mathnerd]

In my neck of the woods, TigerParents are the majority of the population because of the nature of the industry in my area. Tutoring centers litter all the downtown storefronts with names like Ivy Adviser, Stanford Prep, The Princeton Reviewer etc. They mint millions of dollars tutoring, doing SAT prep, writing essays, coaching the population which has a target of getting into certain name brand school. Their parents are used to the "pressure cooker" culture and the "cram schools" of their childhoods and get anxious if they do not help their kids achieve admissions into prestigious colleges. What I also see are that these parents are very involved with education, do not mind shelling out their hard earned dollars for their kid's education instead of saving it for a rainy day, do a lot of music and coach their kids to excel in music, coach their kids themselves for Science and math competitions etc. That kind of life, even when stressful to the child is extremely better than being parented by neglectful parents, in my opinion. All the people I am talking about are from third world countries who worked their butts off to get a world class STEM education and immigrate as Tech Workers to my area and live in one of the highest COL areas in the country and raise their kids there and hope that their kids achieve more than them.

 

But, my son went to play T-Ball in the Little League at age 4. You will not believe the amount of Tiger Parenting that exists in sports - especially Baseball in my area (these are not immigrants from Third World countries). Our team coach had his 5 year old pitching and batting since he was 1 year old and the other coach had his 4 year old go to extra coaching with a professional coach. They used to joke that their sons would get paid as much as A Rod while us losers were having too much "fun" playing baseball. 

 

So, there are academic Tiger Parents and there are Sports Tiger Parents (and I hear that around LA, there are Stage Moms and Stage Dads as well). Every culture seems to have its own version of Tiger Mother. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by mathnerd

[LucyStoner]

No, but I’ve met a lot of people who assume I’m one because DD was doing Y at X age.

Same. People would ask what I did to teach him to read so young or to be so hyper focused on certain academics and hobbies. The answer? Absolutely nothing other than not standing in his way.

[maize]

Well, considering the actual Tiger Dad taught my con law class in law school, I guess I do know a real life Tiger parent. (All of my friends are super laid back. I'm the most intense of the bunch by far.)

Amy Chua's husband? I don't think that being married to a tiger parent makes one a tiger parent.

[stutterfish]

Amy Chua's husband? I don't think that being married to a tiger parent makes one a tiger parent.

I do wonder how it balances out between the genders? Most cases that I've seen of "tiger parenting" - or abusively pushy parenting - involve the dad working himself into the ground, while tiger mom does all the child-related decision-making, most of the spending and all the pushing (calling in the dad for occasional backup with punishment). This is particularly what I've seen in the arts and academic areas, but maybe the role is reversed and you get more tiger dads in sports?

 

Tbh, I find the super pushy dads harder to stomach than the super pushy moms. Perhaps because I translate pushy dads' behaviour as an act of status, male oppression and aggression against a child, whereas I interpret the behaviour of pushy moms as an unfortunate consequence of anxiety and lack of confidence. (The root causes of the behaviour are probably the same, but my interpretation is different :) )

Edited February 6, 2018 by stutterfish

[fralala]

How about freedom from fear?! Speaking for myself, I know my educational standards were high because I never wanted my daughter to be poor -- to worry about paying one bill instead of another, having to live in an unsafe environment, and having to pick the deeply discounted food over healthier things. 

 

I had a lot of fear growing up. I had to work very hard because my primary education was terrible. I missed a lot of things that were common knowledge in American culture (which wasn't mine). I wanted to ensure a level playing field for my daughter and save her from the horribly embarrassing moments I had experienced.

 

So the point was making life easier for her (and me), driven by my own fear at knowing the costs if you don't fit in educational and socially. Being an outsider in America leaves lasting scars financially, educationally, and emotionally.

 

Yes, I think this is what motivates many parents, traditionally. It's what motivated mine.

 

However, when I worked with the homeless population (in the U.S.), what struck me was how many people did have families who wanted to help them. They had potential support systems. They had people trying to help them get jobs. But they were limited, stuck, because of ongoing mental health issues.

 

I don't mean to make any blanket statements about those who are in poverty in the U.S. in general, and it is a very different story in other countries. But while academic and job success is important, if the path to success compromises an individual's mental health, there are going to be significant roadblocks ahead.

 

There is a difference between "I want to make sure my children are employable" and "My kids must be RICH."

[8circles]

 That kind of life, even when stressful to the child is extremely better than being parented by neglectful parents, in my opinion. 

 

Speaking generally, you can be a Tiger parent and also be a neglectful parent. Nothing you describe means the parents aren't neglectful in some major ways.  Neglect isn't all or nothing.

[stutterfish]

Speaking generally, you can be a Tiger parent and also be a neglectful parent. Nothing you describe means the parents aren't neglectful in some major ways. Neglect isn't all or nothing.

Yes. I guess some aspects of being a Tiger parent could easily mean that the emotional or social needs of a child are neglected. It is not impossible that a child who is being pushed to academic/sporting/arts super-achievement, might also be starved of food or love. It seems that abuse (Imo, extreme "Tiger parenting" can be abusive) and neglect often go together. The difference, I guess, is that abuse is a more deliberate/intentional act, whereas neglect is something that usually happens as a consequence of a lack of care or knowledge or thought. I could imagine that it is possible to find both in some extreme Tiger parenting families, where skewed priorities lead to the omission of some things that are very important for the mental health and well-being of the child.

Edited February 6, 2018 by stutterfish

[Dmmetler]

I do think it’s local culture. Here we have Tiger moms and dads in sports and dance (we’re talking a relatively small suburb with multiple soccer parks), but parents look for play based preschools and find wanting Algebra before 9th grade to be excessively pushy. The goal is for your kid to play a sport at an SEC school. Go a suburb over and you get arts and high GPA and the goal is academic scholarships, preferably to state flagships and competitive private schools. (And a few Ivy or bust types).

 

I realized when DD was 2 that we had probably picked the wrong suburb :). She does cheer in the more academic suburb, where many of the kids are juggling the sport and AP or IB classes, and think ir’s super-cool that she’s in college :).

[nixpix5]

I have known plenty. I worked in a private school that was predominately Asian and many tiger parents existed within our school culture. Most of the students went to school all day and then were in Kumon classes or other intensive tutor programs/music programs after school all week and weekends. Our school was preschool through highschool and I saw this schedule just as much in preschool as I did at the elementary and up grades. Parents would ask to have them loaded up with homework and if they weren't reading by 5 yo meetings were called and they would place them with our reading specialist for intensive practice.

 

I will say this, I am in no way condoning it as it seems so harsh but these kids seemed perfectly happy, jovial, popular and adjusted. They loved their parents, their parents loved them, they were calm kids who worked hard. In our school we had alot of anxiety issues from kids but for whatever reason our Asian students existed none while I saw copious mental health struggles in many of our other students. I have always found this to be beyond understanding. In fact, I had one student come to me with concerns about a classmate who they felt was exhibiting depression and cutting behavior. This student said "I don't understand white kids and all of their issues. Their life is so easy and yet they cannot complete the basic life tasks without issue. I think it's because their parents give them no purpose" I also had kids rotating through my office with constant tears and complaints about their parents but not the kids in tiger parent homes. Now maybe this was due to fear or shame but again, these kids exhibited no signs of discomfort or anxiousness around their parents.

 

What is interesting too is that in Japan, Korea, and China there is increased suicides due to this pressure which I feel has something to do with school acceptance rates. In the states, even with the same pressure put on these kids, we don't see the same suicides which could be due to more of an ability to get a spot in a good school.

 

None of this is meant to sound stereotyping. This was just observations from one school and kids from a very select group of parents since most of our parents worked at Microsoft, Amazon, and various other tech positions. They were a wealthy subset of parents in the PNW plus it was predominately Chinese, Korean and Indian families making up about 70% of the school with the other 30% being white, Hispanic and black.

 

As you can see, after working their 3 years I am still perplexed by what I saw. It changed how I perceived and interpreted other people/cultures parenting because I think what is collectively seen as normal within a culture group isn't necessarily seen as bad by the young people within that group where it would be within a group who doesn't typically exhibit that type of parenting.

 

My aunt is Japanese and she has raised my cousins this way. They are successful, adjusted and loving men who love their parents. My aunt thinks people who do not push and discipline their kids are abusive because she sees it like someone not watering and providing sunlight for a plant...therefore not letting it reach its potential.

 

This topic triggered something in my head bouncing around for ages since my time at that school. It is a topic that has always fascinated me since it is so far removed from our predominate culture in the U.S.

[SKL]

I agree that most of the kids brought up in what may be called a "hothouse" culture seem like perfectly pleasant people.  Perhaps what determines this is the camaradery of the troops.  :P

 

My friends from Asian cultures, on the other hand, were somewhat horrified that our culture encourages young people to get paid jobs or even do household chores.  Even worse is that we allow kids to entertain the idea of going into a non-technical/medical field.  Don't we care about our kids' futures?

[Bluegoat]

I have known plenty. I worked in a private school that was predominately Asian and many tiger parents existed within our school culture. Most of the students went to school all day and then were in Kumon classes or other intensive tutor programs/music programs after school all week and weekends. Our school was preschool through highschool and I saw this schedule just as much in preschool as I did at the elementary and up grades. Parents would ask to have them loaded up with homework and if they weren't reading by 5 yo meetings were called and they would place them with our reading specialist for intensive practice.

 

I will say this, I am in no way condoning it as it seems so harsh but these kids seemed perfectly happy, jovial, popular and adjusted. They loved their parents, their parents loved them, they were calm kids who worked hard. In our school we had alot of anxiety issues from kids but for whatever reason our Asian students existed none while I saw copious mental health struggles in many of our other students. I have always found this to be beyond understanding. In fact, I had one student come to me with concerns about a classmate who they felt was exhibiting depression and cutting behavior. This student said "I don't understand white kids and all of their issues. Their life is so easy and yet they cannot complete the basic life tasks without issue. I think it's because their parents give them no purpose" I also had kids rotating through my office with constant tears and complaints about their parents but not the kids in tiger parent homes. Now maybe this was due to fear or shame but again, these kids exhibited no signs of discomfort or anxiousness around their parents.

 

What is interesting too is that in Japan, Korea, and China there is increased suicides due to this pressure which I feel has something to do with school acceptance rates. In the states, even with the same pressure put on these kids, we don't see the same suicides which could be due to more of an ability to get a spot in a good school.

 

None of this is meant to sound stereotyping. This was just observations from one school and kids from a very select group of parents since most of our parents worked at Microsoft, Amazon, and various other tech positions. They were a wealthy subset of parents in the PNW plus it was predominately Chinese, Korean and Indian families making up about 70% of the school with the other 30% being white, Hispanic and black.

 

As you can see, after working their 3 years I am still perplexed by what I saw. It changed how I perceived and interpreted other people/cultures parenting because I think what is collectively seen as normal within a culture group isn't necessarily seen as bad by the young people within that group where it would be within a group who doesn't typically exhibit that type of parenting.

 

My aunt is Japanese and she has raised my cousins this way. They are successful, adjusted and loving men who love their parents. My aunt thinks people who do not push and discipline their kids are abusive because she sees it like someone not watering and providing sunlight for a plant...therefore not letting it reach its potential.

 

This topic triggered something in my head bouncing around for ages since my time at that school. It is a topic that has always fascinated me since it is so far removed from our predominate culture in the U.S.

 

That's an interesting observation.  It's similar to something my university professor university chaplain friends have said about a lot of the kids that pass through - there is a lot of problems - much more than i the past - with mental health issues, specifically anxiety and depression - and they've both said the same kind of thing - the kids seem to have no sense of purpose or how to hold together meaning in their lives.

 

I'm not sure I feel that ambition and status and competition are meanings I would really want to have guiding my kids lives and they do kind of turn me off a lot of the tiger mom approaches.  But hard work and doing things well, being able to contribute to the community, those are things I can see being empowering for kids.

[mathnerd]

Speaking generally, you can be a Tiger parent and also be a neglectful parent. Nothing you describe means the parents aren't neglectful in some major ways. Neglect isn't all or nothing.

The tiger parents I know are the “helicopter “ kind. They worry about healthy diets, vitamin supplements, meditation and yoga, 1 hour of exercise and such things because their kids need to be in excellent physical and mental condition to perform in international competitions (music, science, math, sports). There are neglectful parents in my area who literally give their preteen cash for food and leave them alone in the house all summer long - the kids bike to McDonald’s for food, watch inappropriate stuff on YouTube and the internet and make dubious friends. My neighbor, who is such a neglectful mom is a sales lady with a tech firm and travels for 2 weeks in a month. I would much prefer a hovering parent helping me with extra Afterschool algebra than one who has no clue what I have been up to all day long.

I am not talking about the tiger parent who hits kids for failing a math test etc . I am talking about the focused parent like the op posted about whose kid does get to play every day - after he finishes his work- this is the kind I see in my area. In many non-American cultures, children are not underestimated and they are considered capable of a lot more than what the norm is in America- for example, many cultures start potty training babies at 7 months old and are usually done with it at 1 year old, which I am still amazed by!

[Bluegoat]

I think what's missed most in those settings may be free time that's self-regulated.  

[SeaConquest]

Amy Chua's husband? I don't think that being married to a tiger parent makes one a tiger parent.

 

Yes. Jed Rubenfeld. I honestly have no idea if he is a Tiger parent; it was just a funny (to me, at least) aside.

[Arcadia]

What is interesting too is that in Japan, Korea, and China there is increased suicides due to this pressure which I feel has something to do with school acceptance rates. In the states, even with the same pressure put on these kids, we don't see the same suicides which could be due to more of an ability to get a spot in a good school.

 

None of this is meant to sound stereotyping. This was just observations from one school and kids from a very select group of parents since most of our parents worked at Microsoft, Amazon, and various other tech positions. They were a wealthy subset of parents in the PNW plus it was predominately Chinese, Korean and Indian families making up about 70% of the school with the other 30% being white, Hispanic and black.

 

As you can see, after working their 3 years I am still perplexed by what I saw. It changed how I perceived and interpreted other people/cultures parenting because I think what is collectively seen as normal within a culture group isn't necessarily seen as bad by the young people within that group where it would be within a group who doesn't typically exhibit that type of parenting.

There is solidarity in numbers from 1st generation asians. In my local public school, at elementary school level, it was quite easy to tell who are 1st generation and who are 2nd/3rd generation by after school activities. When kids at after school RSM classes compare, they have similar workload given by parents and almost the entire RSM classes are asian kids. It is similar to why more local Asian Indians are in spelling bees and Chinese/Japanese/Korean are in table tennis.

 

My kids german school has plenty of german expats parents from Europe and they have the same focus as asians. Oxford and Cambridge aren’t easy to get in either for them. So when kids compare workloads during recess, everyone has something to complain about their workload. Shared misery works especially for my DS12. He likes knowing that there are fellow “sufferers†and he knows he has a lighter load compared to his public school age peers.

 

Asian countries have tracking in their schools, whether it is official or not. All my 1st grade to 12th grade relatives are tracked. That contributes to a lot of stress beyond college acceptance. When my husband was tracked into an elite middle school, my in-laws piled on the stress because it was like they unfortunately realized their last born is “smart†and there is a possibility of him getting into medicine school. I have a good school life despite tracking because my paternal and maternal relatives are business oriented and strongly encourage self-employment so wasn’t bothered if we didn’t have any interest in medicine or law.

[8circles]

The tiger parents I know are the “helicopter “ kind. They worry about healthy diets, vitamin supplements, meditation and yoga, 1 hour of exercise and such things because their kids need to be in excellent physical and mental condition to perform in international competitions (music, science, math, sports). There are neglectful parents in my area who literally give their preteen cash for food and leave them alone in the house all summer long - the kids bike to McDonald’s for food, watch inappropriate stuff on YouTube and the internet and make dubious friends. My neighbor, who is such a neglectful mom is a sales lady with a tech firm and travels for 2 weeks in a month. I would much prefer a hovering parent helping me with extra Afterschool algebra than one who has no clue what I have been up to all day long.

I am not talking about the tiger parent who hits kids for failing a math test etc . I am talking about the focused parent like the op posted about whose kid does get to play every day - after he finishes his work- this is the kind I see in my area. In many non-American cultures, children are not underestimated and they are considered capable of a lot more than what the norm is in America- for example, many cultures start potty training babies at 7 months old and are usually done with it at 1 year old, which I am still amazed by!

 

My point is that even the "helicopter" kind of parents can be neglectful. Even focused parents who let their kids play every day after finishing their work can be neglectful.

 

And I know a number of parents whose kids are alone all summer long who are good parents who know what their kids are up to all day. Because they don't underestimate their kids and consider them capable of caring for themselves during the day.

 

It seems like the term "tiger" parents is just becoming code for "perfect" parents. Which I don't get.

 

Another point - I think that there is a significant disconnect between parenting styles that I think boils down to what is considered "success". If you think success is being the best at ______ then you'll be a very different parent than someone who thinks success is being happy, or supporting oneself, or being well-rounded, etc.

[shawthorne44]

Yes. Jed Rubenfeld. I honestly have no idea if he is a Tiger parent; it was just a funny (to me, at least) aside.

 

The impression that I got from the book was that he was not a Tiger Dad and reined her in.  She discussed several times how he hated how he was raised and that he doesn't have a relationship with his family because of the Tiger Parent/Shaming.   I think him reining her in was what gave her some perspective on what she was doing and what led to the book.  

[SeaConquest]

It's probably a good time to mention [again] that these pressure cooker environments have real world consequences for a not insignificant number of kids:

 

http://brunersbreak.com/the-game-called-life/not-just-another-suicide/

 

https://www.facebook.com/TheRealMikeRowe/posts/1802697743073694

 

If your kid has a family history of mental illness, or shows signs of anxiety, I would tread very carefully in this area. It's a major concern for me re my kids, given my mental health history, especially because I can be so competitive/intense. It's a fine balance -- building stress tolerance and resilience vs. pressuring your kid to an unhealthy breaking point.

Edited February 6, 2018 by SeaConquest

[Mabelen]

I have known plenty. I worked in a private school that was predominately Asian and many tiger parents existed within our school culture. Most of the students went to school all day and then were in Kumon classes or other intensive tutor programs/music programs after school all week and weekends. Our school was preschool through highschool and I saw this schedule just as much in preschool as I did at the elementary and up grades. Parents would ask to have them loaded up with homework and if they weren't reading by 5 yo meetings were called and they would place them with our reading specialist for intensive practice.

 

I will say this, I am in no way condoning it as it seems so harsh but these kids seemed perfectly happy, jovial, popular and adjusted. They loved their parents, their parents loved them, they were calm kids who worked hard. In our school we had alot of anxiety issues from kids but for whatever reason our Asian students existed none while I saw copious mental health struggles in many of our other students. I have always found this to be beyond understanding. In fact, I had one student come to me with concerns about a classmate who they felt was exhibiting depression and cutting behavior. This student said "I don't understand white kids and all of their issues. Their life is so easy and yet they cannot complete the basic life tasks without issue. I think it's because their parents give them no purpose" I also had kids rotating through my office with constant tears and complaints about their parents but not the kids in tiger parent homes. Now maybe this was due to fear or shame but again, these kids exhibited no signs of discomfort or anxiousness around their parents.

 

What is interesting too is that in Japan, Korea, and China there is increased suicides due to this pressure which I feel has something to do with school acceptance rates. In the states, even with the same pressure put on these kids, we don't see the same suicides which could be due to more of an ability to get a spot in a good school.

 

None of this is meant to sound stereotyping. This was just observations from one school and kids from a very select group of parents since most of our parents worked at Microsoft, Amazon, and various other tech positions. They were a wealthy subset of parents in the PNW plus it was predominately Chinese, Korean and Indian families making up about 70% of the school with the other 30% being white, Hispanic and black.

 

As you can see, after working their 3 years I am still perplexed by what I saw. It changed how I perceived and interpreted other people/cultures parenting because I think what is collectively seen as normal within a culture group isn't necessarily seen as bad by the young people within that group where it would be within a group who doesn't typically exhibit that type of parenting.

 

My aunt is Japanese and she has raised my cousins this way. They are successful, adjusted and loving men who love their parents. My aunt thinks people who do not push and discipline their kids are abusive because she sees it like someone not watering and providing sunlight for a plant...therefore not letting it reach its potential.

 

This topic triggered something in my head bouncing around for ages since my time at that school. It is a topic that has always fascinated me since it is so far removed from our predominate culture in the U.S.

My kids are half South Asian and I live in California, in a district with a lot of Asian techie families. I think a key element in kids happiness is camaraderie. These families socialize a lot among themselves. Everyone knows each other. They are high achieving and push other onwards.

 

Honestly, I hear the kids complaining a lot about excessive work, but they understand their parents' motives. Most have ambition to reach high themselves, and they have each other to validate those feelings and to complain about having no life. They also like the sense of accomplishment they get from their academics and extracurricular activities and competitions.

[fralala]

I have known plenty. I worked in a private school that was predominately Asian and many tiger parents existed within our school culture. Most of the students went to school all day and then were in Kumon classes or other intensive tutor programs/music programs after school all week and weekends. Our school was preschool through highschool and I saw this schedule just as much in preschool as I did at the elementary and up grades. Parents would ask to have them loaded up with homework and if they weren't reading by 5 yo meetings were called and they would place them with our reading specialist for intensive practice.

 

I will say this, I am in no way condoning it as it seems so harsh but these kids seemed perfectly happy, jovial, popular and adjusted. They loved their parents, their parents loved them, they were calm kids who worked hard. In our school we had alot of anxiety issues from kids but for whatever reason our Asian students existed none while I saw copious mental health struggles in many of our other students. I have always found this to be beyond understanding. In fact, I had one student come to me with concerns about a classmate who they felt was exhibiting depression and cutting behavior. This student said "I don't understand white kids and all of their issues. Their life is so easy and yet they cannot complete the basic life tasks without issue. I think it's because their parents give them no purpose" I also had kids rotating through my office with constant tears and complaints about their parents but not the kids in tiger parent homes. Now maybe this was due to fear or shame but again, these kids exhibited no signs of discomfort or anxiousness around their parents.

 

What is interesting too is that in Japan, Korea, and China there is increased suicides due to this pressure which I feel has something to do with school acceptance rates. In the states, even with the same pressure put on these kids, we don't see the same suicides which could be due to more of an ability to get a spot in a good school.

 

None of this is meant to sound stereotyping. This was just observations from one school and kids from a very select group of parents since most of our parents worked at Microsoft, Amazon, and various other tech positions. They were a wealthy subset of parents in the PNW plus it was predominately Chinese, Korean and Indian families making up about 70% of the school with the other 30% being white, Hispanic and black.

 

As you can see, after working their 3 years I am still perplexed by what I saw. It changed how I perceived and interpreted other people/cultures parenting because I think what is collectively seen as normal within a culture group isn't necessarily seen as bad by the young people within that group where it would be within a group who doesn't typically exhibit that type of parenting.

 

My aunt is Japanese and she has raised my cousins this way. They are successful, adjusted and loving men who love their parents. My aunt thinks people who do not push and discipline their kids are abusive because she sees it like someone not watering and providing sunlight for a plant...therefore not letting it reach its potential.

 

This topic triggered something in my head bouncing around for ages since my time at that school. It is a topic that has always fascinated me since it is so far removed from our predominate culture in the U.S.

 

This is a helpful observation. And kind of reminds me both of the studies on the effects of (parental) corporal punishment on different ethnic groups and on my anecdotal experience, which is that when children experience something as a culturally normative practice, they are less likely to see it as detrimental.

 

I will also say, because I am part of an Indian family, that none among us are tiger parents, or whatever the Asian stereotype is-- however, I do think perhaps if any stereotype is true, it would be the one about greater emphasis on respect for teachers and adults as well as greater respect for school and learning as a whole. Good relationships with adults, the belief that elders have something to teach and aren't just boring dinosaurs-- rather than intense pressure/competition-- are what I believe create an optimal environment for learning.

[Mabelen]

There is solidarity in numbers from 1st generation asians. In my local public school, at elementary school level, it was quite easy to tell who are 1st generation and who are 2nd/3rd generation by after school activities. When kids at after school RSM classes compare, they have similar workload given by parents and almost the entire RSM classes are asian kids. It is similar to why more local Asian Indians are in spelling bees and Chinese/Japanese/Korean are in table tennis.

 

My kids german school has plenty of german expats parents from Europe and they have the same focus as asians. Oxford and Cambridge aren’t easy to get in either for them. So when kids compare workloads during recess, everyone has something to complain about their workload. Shared misery works especially for my DS12. He likes knowing that there are fellow “sufferers†and he knows he has a lighter load compared to his public school age peers.

 

Asian countries have tracking in their schools, whether it is official or not. All my 1st grade to 12th grade relatives are tracked. That contributes to a lot of stress beyond college acceptance. When my husband was tracked into an elite middle school, my in-laws piled on the stress because it was like they unfortunately realized their last born is “smart†and there is a possibility of him getting into medicine school. I have a good school life despite tracking because my paternal and maternal relatives are business oriented and strongly encourage self-employment so wasn’t bothered if we didn’t have any interest in medicine or law.

Haha. My 13 year old dd is like your 12 year old son. She considers herself lucky compared to her Indian friends and school mates!

[Mabelen]

It's probably a good time to mention [again] that these pressure cooker environments have real world consequences for a not insignificant number of kids:

 

http://brunersbreak.com/the-game-called-life/not-just-another-suicide/

 

https://www.facebook.com/TheRealMikeRowe/posts/1802697743073694

 

If your kid has a family history of mental illness, or shows signs of anxiety, I would tread very carefully in this area. It's a major concern for me re my kids, given my mental health history, especially because I can be so competitive/intense. It's a fine balance -- building stress tolerance and resilience vs. pressuring your kid to an unhealthy breaking point.

In complete agreement. It is a fine balance indeed. I think all we can do as parents is to instill values, push for effort, keep high but achievable expectations for each child, but also listen and watch very carefully.

[KungFuPanda]

There's a lot of strategizing and getting people to work together that goes along with team sports. The successful businessmen/women I know who were athletes tended to play team sports rather than individual ones. If it were simply just a matter of needing an outlet for excess energy, then why would it make a difference whether it was a team sport vs. an individual one?

 

So, do team sports teach these social skills OR is it possible that people with good social skills gravitate towards team sports while loaners prefer individual ones?

[Sk8ermaiden]

If the parents and coaches are good, then team sports absolutely teach many of those important social skills, and give constant practice at them. I watch it happen every day. 

[ktgrok]

 

We have a very high income, highly competitive community near us. Most of the kids do well, but they also have high drug use and suicide.

 

This. I briefly attended (1 year) a high school that was populated by the kids of tiger moms. Those kids were very messed up in a lot of ways from all the pressure. One ended up needing in patient psychiatric care, one friend had ulcers, many were using drugs to cope. 

 

My goal is to raise children that are happy. Not "successful" whatever that means (seems to mean makes a lot of money and has a prestigious career).  Those kids were NOT happy. Many still aren't, from what I see on Facebook, although several are successful in the traditional sense. 

 

The ones that are happy seem to be the ones that pushed themselves rather than being pushed. 

[nixpix5]

This is a helpful observation. And kind of reminds me both of the studies on the effects of (parental) corporal punishment on different ethnic groups and on my anecdotal experience, which is that when children experience something as a culturally normative practice, they are less likely to see it as detrimental.

 

I will also say, because I am part of an Indian family, that none among us are tiger parents, or whatever the Asian stereotype is-- however, I do think perhaps if any stereotype is true, it would be the one about greater emphasis on respect for teachers and adults as well as greater respect for school and learning as a whole. Good relationships with adults, the belief that elders have something to teach and aren't just boring dinosaurs-- rather than intense pressure/competition-- are what I believe create an optimal environment for learning.

Yes, couldn't agree more with this. I live in an area that has large Asian populations and my Indian friends have the most courtesy and respectful kids. Same was true about the students at my school. Kind, respectful of parents and teachers, just really wonderful kids. I think you are on to something here. This might be the pivot point. The respect for education and understanding the value of it was something I noticed.

 

Predominate culture can be confusing for kids. We say education is key but we don't always hold our kids to an expectation that this is true. We like to talk talk talk about everyone getting a good education, being more educated, better science and math on and on but we often don't set a ton of expectation or limits around it within the country (America) as a whole. We often tell young people agnosium how talented, wonderful, smart etc they are and down play the importance of elders.

 

One of my most hilarious students who was from China would always say her parents didn't believe in praise. She said they would tell her the moment she started feeling like she needed someone else to tell her she was doing well was the moment she would know she was feeling self doubt and should inventory why she was feeling that way. She brought it up because she thought kids in America have alot of poor behaviors because their parents praised so much. She said when she came to America that it was weird to have a teacher gush over something she did. She said it made her feel like she had reached the best she could ever be in that and she said it made her more aware and anxious the next time she was doing a project. She said she felt under a microscope.

 

I thought her observations were so insightful for an 11 year old because research does indeed support this. Praising is not something that has the effect we might think or want. She saw her parents as people she respected and went to for wisdom but didn't expect them to do for her what she could do for herself. She always said what shocked her the most in American schools was how lazy all the students were and how they tried to do as little as possible. She was blown away by that.

[ktgrok]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/383378/

 

This article seems to be a direct contrast. But I wonder if it is both? Does this kind of bonding in the very early years make children more resilient to the harsher parenting methods of tiger parenting later on? Or are the elephant parents and the tiger of parents two different subsets of parent?

[Arcadia]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/383378/

 

This article seems to be a direct contrast. But I wonder if it is both? Does this kind of bonding in the very early years make children more resilient to the harsher parenting methods of tiger parenting later on? Or are the elephant parents and the tiger of parents two different subsets of parent?

Then there is the Dolphin Mom “A Case for Parenting the Dolphin--Not Tiger--Mom Way†http://time.com/94653/a-case-for-parenting-the-dolphin-not-tiger-mom-way/

and “Achtung Baby: An American Mom on the German Art of Raising Self-Reliant Children†https://sarazaske.com/in-the-news/

 

Just as Myer Briggs can’t come up with the same 4 letter code each time my kids and I try the quizzes, parenting is more nuance than labels/classifications.

[Crimson Wife]

 

Tbh, I find the super pushy dads harder to stomach than the super pushy moms. Perhaps because I translate pushy dads' behaviour as an act of status, male oppression and aggression against a child, whereas I interpret the behaviour of pushy moms as an unfortunate consequence of anxiety and lack of confidence. (The root causes of the behaviour are probably the same, but my interpretation is different :) )

 

Oh, it's definitely status-chasing on the part of the moms. They want that Ivy League sticker to go on their luxury SUV next to the 26.2 sticker and the OBX/MV/etc. sticker :rolleyes:  I feel so sorry for their kids being treated as basically fashion accessories...