Larry Nassar

[swimmermom3]

 

Oh wow! I had completely forgotten about her fall. Thanks for sharing that.

[Sneezyone]

Carol, did you see Mattie Larson's testimony. It was heartbreaking. She talked about deliberately hurting herself before having to go to the Karolyi ranch for practice. She said she was terrified of all the adults there and that Nassar seemed to be the one person she could trust. :unsure:

Classic good cop, bad cop. It was mentioned many times before I this thread, that the consolidation of control and isolation from families and trusted adults was a major problem here.

[sassenach]

Thinking a judge is negligent in her duties for suggesting a man in her courtroom being sentenced should be raped himself in a room full of his rape victims is "ape shit"?

 

Not hardly. It was appalling behavior on the part of the judge and the stoops to personal attacks reflects on those who make them.

 

Bill

All. Day.

[swimmermom3]

Classic good cop, bad cop. It was mentioned many times before I this thread, that the consolidation of control and isolation from families and trusted adults was a major problem here.

 

That would also be a classic pattern in domestic abuse, no? I am grateful that we had more control and interaction with our kids for swimming. When they traveled, that was a bit different. 

 

I keep wondering when we'll see the Karolyis brought up. They weren't exactly known for being tender with their gymnasts. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Carol, did you see Mattie Larson's testimony. It was heartbreaking. She talked about deliberately hurting herself before having to go to the Karolyi ranch for practice.  She said she was terrified of all the adults there and that Nassar seemed to be the one person she could trust. :unsure:

Trinea Gonczar really got to me.

She was abused around 800 times, and she never realized that there was anything wrong with it until much later.  She defended him, and wanted to explain to others how important and normal these treatments were.  Even in her statement, she is kind of wistful about their past friendship.  Groomed so much, so twisted.

[Carol in Cal.]

And here's Mattie.  

[Sneezyone]

It just makes me sick to think of how many parents and kids viewed going to the ranch as a privilege and honor while all of this was going. Again, I don’t have a problem with the concept of team development camps. The isolation from family and even personal coaches tho always bothered me. I keep thinking of all the girls at DDs old gym who passed through there when this monster was still there. 🤢

[Sandwalker]

"EAST LANSING, MI - Cries of "one, two, three, four, kick the board out the door" and "go green, go white, do what's right" rang through the streets of East Lansing Friday night as hundreds rallied in support of sexual assault survivors, calling for change in Michigan State University's handing of sexual assault claims.

 

"For many survivors of Larry Nassar's abuse, their silence came to an end this week as he was sentenced. And I hope that tonight the silence ends at Michigan State University," senior Ewurama Appiagyei-Dankah told the crowd gathered in front of "the rock," freshly-painted with the names of the 156 sexual assault survivors who testified at the disgraced former MSU doctor's sentencing earlier in the week. ..."http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2018/01/times_up_msu_protesters_fill_s.html

[ktgrok]

The judge was, in a way, proposing to perpetuate the very behavior that was so reprehensible and caused so much agony to the victims.  When we as a society engage at the same level as the perp, it drags us all down.

 

I admire in so many ways how the judge handled this case, but that comment was difficult, again because she seemed to advocate rape as acceptable under certain circumstances. That was a human statement, but also unprofessional.

 

I think that's it, it was a human statement, with her acknowledging that would be cruel and unusual, and that our society has legal means to keep us from going there. 

 

Had she said "I wish the constitution didn't exist so I could do such and such " I'd read that differently. Maybe because I've been known to say more than once that IF my religion allowed it, I'd love to wish ill on a certain politician. But my religion says I must pray for my enemies, so I do. Acknowledging that my baser impulses are NOT good, or nice, and that by choosing to follow my religion I am forced to be a better person than I would choose to be. (please.....if you want to debate the religious tenets there do a spin off, don't side track this thread). I don't wish my religion didn't require that of me, I'm glad it does, because my brain can acknowledge that the religion is right and my own personal impulse is wrong. 

 

I took her remarks the same way. She had terrible impulses but our system of laws, which she has voluntarily chosen to uphold as a judge, keep her from following them. 

[ktgrok]

More snide comments.

 

Bill

I assure you I was not being snide. My remark was sober and truthful. And I stand by it. 

 

Just because you don't like something, or disagree with it, does not make it snide, nor a personal attack, nor any of the other labels you've stuck on people's well thought out responses to you. 

 

You, however, are being dismissive. 

[ktgrok]

When I saw the judge's words, my first thought was, " Oh no! I hope she doesn't cost them for making that statement."

 

If there is any chance that what she said could hurt the outcome, how would you feel about what she said?

 

Bill is saying that as a professional, she should have kept the thought in check and ran absolutely no risk of hurting the case. They were cheap points to be scored and weren't worthy of all that was at stake and everything those young women went through. They do deserve better.

 

He pled guilty. The sentence was in accordance to the guidelines given. Her comments will not change the course of what happens. It is not uncommon for a judge to say they wish they could give a different sentence, but the law restrains them from doing so. It is also probably not uncommon for a judge to wish a criminal could experience the pain he caused others. Wishing it doesn't make it happen, wishing it is not illegal, and wishing it is not unconstitutional. 

[ktgrok]

Enabling rape as a legitimate tool of "justice" isn't a 0.1% sort of mistake.

 

Bill

 

She did not enable any such thing. 

 

Enabling means she made it easier for it to happen. She did not do that. She voiced a thought, one that has no bearing on what actually happens to him. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Katie, thank you for your posts. Logical, reasoned, sane...a marsh wiggle stamping out the noxious fumes.

[ktgrok]

Katie, thank you for your posts. Logical, reasoned, sane...a marsh wiggle stamping out the noxious fumes.

 

I appreciated yours as well. 

 

Actually, most of the posts here :)

[unsinkable]

I’ve agreed (I think others have as well) that the judge’s words should have been phrased differently. I don’t agree with the continued posts about the judge. Having witnessed firsthand how people deflect from incidents of abuse and try to silence its survivors, I strongly feel it’s detracting from a serious discussion on how to prevent child molestors and sexual abusers. I don’t understand why a self-confessed advocate for women won’t listen to the many women here asking for the posts to go elsewhere.

I hate suggestions of vigilante violence and eye-for-an-eye justice. I don't like jokes about violence (especially directed towards children.)

 

I think when people are jailed and imprisoned, they still have the right decent treatment, and the right to be safe. I believe the death penalty is immoral and should be illegal.

 

All that being said...my point was that Bill has always posted in this way/manner. This thread is no different than other threads except for the topic. It could be about spaying and neutering pets or menu planning...Bill's way is the only way.

[TechWife]

From an editors in NYT by Racheal Denhollander:

 

Research shows that pedophiles are also reported at least seven times on average before adults take the reports of abuse seriously and act on them. In many ways, the sexual assault scandal that was 30 years in the making was only a symptom of a much deeper cultural problem — the unwillingness to speak the truth against one’s own community.

 

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/26/opinion/sunday/larry-nassar-rachael-denhollander.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

[gardenmom5]

From an editors in NYT by Racheal Denhollander:

 

Research shows that pedophiles are also reported at least seven times on average before adults take the reports of abuse seriously and act on them. In many ways, the sexual assault scandal that was 30 years in the making was only a symptom of a much deeper cultural problem — the unwillingness to speak the truth against one’s own community.

 

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/26/opinion/sunday/larry-nassar-rachael-denhollander.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

 

and now there are articles coming out that the head of the ncaa has known about him since 2010.

there are so many other people who need to go to jail over this.

[AmandaVT]

Had this judge not followed up the "death warrant" comment with expressing that, were in not for the Constitution, she would allow Nasser to be abused in the same fashion he abused others, I would attempt to consider the judge meant "you will die in prison" when she said I've just signed your death warrant. It would be a stretch, but I'd attempt a benefit of a doubt.

 

But in context? No way. A judge can't express the opinion that to her mind justice would be served by experiencing multiple sexual assaults.

 

The lesson we should draw from this horrid crime is never to rationalize bad behaviors by powerful people.

 

The judge should not be excused for her words from the bench. She breached her duties.

 

Bill

 

How about this judge? https://abovethelaw.com/2016/06/the-best-transcript-of-all-time-you-be-the-judge/

 

I can't and won't post his words here, but if you're up for it, click on the link and read the excerpts from the court transcript. This judge was not removed from the bench. 

[gardenmom5]

The judge said, to an unrepentant rapist claiming to be the victim, that she wished he could know what it feels like to be on the other side of what he did.  Because maybe if he is actually human, if he could understand what his victims felt, he could discover what "remorse" is.

 

I haven't read the entire trial transcript, but it was my understanding that the words about "wish you could experience what you did to them" was not in the sentencing part, but in response to one of the victim statements that he felt he shouldn't have had to listen to.

 

I think it is a stretch to say she meant "I hope you are raped in prison."

 

I am not sure what the intent is of taking it out of context in order to attack the judge - to punish the person who rendered justice in cases where justice has failed for so long.

 

Even if the words weren't the most well-chosen and well-placed, it is enough to say you don't like the words.  The idea that the judge gets fired for the result of this case is just astounding.  That's like firing a fireman who saved a bunch of kids because he also said "shit, I burned my hand."

 

this.  this guy . . . is a sociopath.  he is incapable/unwilling of feeling empathy for another or remorse for pain he has caused another.  (if he had - he wouldn't have so many victims)  he thinks he's the victim being forced to listen to every single victim give an impact statement.   (and at least one coach)

 

my take was also - the judge wished he could feel his victims pain so he would feel remorse.  if a 3rd party r@ped him in prison - it would NOT be the same (so I think it's laughable people think that's what the judge suggested), because it would only be about himself.   It would not bbe the pain those girls (and their families) feel by having someone they and their families, and their coaches, trusted, assault them.  and it is THEIR pain he needs to feel, so that maybe he could start to feel some empathy and remorse.  not sure he's capable -but that's why they're locking him up and throwing away the key.   society must be protected from him.

 

the judge gets a lot of kudos for allowing each girl to speak - until they were ready to stop speaking. that's something that means a lot to an abuse victim - to be listened to, to be validated and vindicated, and not dismissed, yet again.   that's a lot of support and power to them after having been victimized by a such a person in their lives.  that is a healing step for them.

[ktgrok]

this.  this guy . . . is a sociopath.  he is incapable/unwilling of feeling empathy for another or remorse for pain he has caused another.  (if he had - he wouldn't have so many victims)  he thinks he's the victim being forced to listen to every single victim give an impact statement.   (and at least one coach)

 

my take was also - the judge wished he could feel his victims pain so he would feel remorse.  if a 3rd party r@ped him in prison - it would NOT be the same (so I think it's laughable people think that's what the judge suggested), because it would only be about himself.  

 

Exactly. This was not about sentencing whatever happens to him in prison. It was a direct response to what was going on in the court at the time. 

[TechWife]

How do we change our culture to make it so that it becomes expected to speak truth in your own community? Laws certainly don’t do that, as we have seen. It requires, I think, a change in priorities. But, how do we do that?

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

and now there are articles coming out that the head of the ncaa has known about him since 2010.

there are so many other people who need to go to jail over this.

I’m not sure to who, but complaints were made as early as 1997 and ignored.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

How do we change our culture to make it so that it becomes expected to speak truth in your own community? Laws certainly don’t do that, as we have seen. It requires, I think, a change in priorities. But, how do we do that?

 

I think this is a topic all it’s own. The need to speak truth within communities is a huge issue. Covering up scandals is endemic across most communities. Cover up, hide, lie, seem to be standard procedure.

[Guest]

How do we change our culture to make it so that it becomes expected to speak truth in your own community? Laws certainly don’t do that, as we have seen. It requires, I think, a change in priorities. But, how do we do that?

It takes brave people to stand up. I know a woman who reported a beloved teacher and personal friend. It broke her heart but it was the right thing. I have so much respect for her. We just have to raise our children to be brave and speak up when they are scared or don’t want to. And we need to honor people who stand up and tell the truth.

[gardenmom5]

I’m not sure to who, but complaints were made as early as 1997 and ignored.

 

yeah.  there are a lot of people who denied, or ignored and are complicit and should go to jail as an accomplice.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

yeah. there are a lot of people who denied, or ignored and are complicit and should go to jail as an accomplice.

 

I think those who qualify as mandatory reporters should be held accountable for certain.

[Lostinabook]

I’m not sure to who, but complaints were made as early as 1997 and ignored.

 

 

8 times Larry Nassar could have been stopped: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp/gymnastics-scandal-8-times-larry-nassar-could-have-been-stopped-n841091?__twitter_impression=true

 

1997: Kathy Klages (MSU gymnastics coach) was told

 

1999: Running coach (MSU) was told

 

2000: Trainers (MSU) were told

 

2000-2001: Trainer (MSU) was told

 

2001: Psychologist (MSU) was told

 

2014: Amanda Thomashow told MSU officials. They investigated and found that she didn't understand the difference between treatment and assault. I posted an article from the LSJ earlier in this thread that quoted the conclusion of the report she received from MSU vs. the conclusion of the report circulated internally.

 

2015: USAG was told

 

 

And these are just the times listed in the article linked above.

[solascriptura]

8 times Larry Nassar could have been stopped: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp/gymnastics-scandal-8-times-larry-nassar-could-have-been-stopped-n841091?__twitter_impression=true

 

1997: Kathy Klages (MSU gymnastics coach) was told

 

1999: Running coach (MSU) was told

 

2000: Trainers (MSU) were told

 

2000-2001: Trainer (MSU) was told

 

2001: Psychologist (MSU) was told

 

2014: Amanda Thomashow told MSU officials. They investigated and found that she didn't understand the difference between treatment and assault. I posted an article from the LSJ earlier in this thread that quoted the conclusion of the report she received from MSU vs. the conclusion of the report circulated internally.

 

2015: USAG was told

 

 

And these are just the times listed in the article linked above.

I keep hearing this over and over again. That people didn’t know the difference between treatment and assault. Even if that was “treatment†why would anyone allow their girls to be “treated†like that? Penetration? Really? I would most definitely rather my child not become a world class athlete than to undergo such humiliating treatment.

[Lostinabook]

I keep hearing this over and over again. That people didn’t know the difference between treatment and assault. Even if that was “treatment†why would anyone allow their girls to be “treated†like that? Penetration? Really? I would most definitely rather my child not become a world class athlete than to undergo such humiliating treatment.

 

This was different though. Thomashow's claims were investigated, and this is the conclusion that the INVESTIGATORS came to. I can see how the girls just thought that whatever he did was appropriate medical treatment since he was lauded as an "expert", but I have no idea how the medical people decided this. Although if IIRC, Nassar was allowed to pick the docs who helped "investigate"

[Aura]

How do we change our culture to make it so that it becomes expected to speak truth in your own community? Laws certainly don’t do that, as we have seen. It requires, I think, a change in priorities. But, how do we do that?

 

These are my initial thoughts, not fully developed, but just musings:

 

Harsh..and I mean HARSH...penalties both at a legislative and societal level for lying and being complicit in a lie. 

 

If lies and cover-ups were really, truly SHAMED in our society, I believe (perhaps optimistically so) that there would be less. Less people being willing to go along with a lie. Less people risking being caught at lying. 

 

Along with that, there should be an assumption of truth. The more vulnerable parties, especially children, must always be believed first.

 

At this point, I think we need more incredibly brave people like Rachel Denhollander who are willing to push and push and push to make a difference and fight to root out these nasties. And society must meet them to say, "Truth has been revealed. Justice must prevail. Let their voices be heard." And to carry through and make sure all people that were involved in the lie be dragged out into the light and face consequences.

 

I really, really want this to happen in this case. I don't want it to fizzle. I don't want people to be distracted. I want to see people hang on to this like a pitbull. I want everyone involved in covering up and allowing it to continue to be dragged out, fully exposed, and justly punished.

 

And then when the next brave soul comes forward, I want to see it happen again. I want to see nasty people like Nassar trembling in their boots afraid that they might be the next one exposed.

[Aura]

In a more practical sense, you do what you can.

 

If all you can do is educate your children to be able to identify abuse and speak out. Then do that.

 

If you can push for change inside your own local organization, your church, your homeschool group, or your athletic group, then do that.

 

If you can use your voice as a blogger, then do that.

 

If you can become the next President of the United States, then do that.

[gardenmom5]

I keep hearing this over and over again. That people didn’t know the difference between treatment and assault. Even if that was “treatment†why would anyone allow their girls to be “treated†like that? Penetration? Really? I would most definitely rather my child not become a world class athlete than to undergo such humiliating treatment.

 

nassar lied to investigators, described what correct treatment would have been.  he chose at least one medical investigator

- and msu only talked to providers from msu.

 

here had to be recognition by officials - or else why the non-disclosure agreement?

 

i think officials were more about protecting the organization, and afraid of what would happen if it went public.

i think all those who covered up, at the very least, should lose pensions and benefits from those positions.

 

organizations need the message cover ups are more painful than exposure by doing the right thing.

[swimmermom3]

I think that's it, it was a human statement, with her acknowledging that would be cruel and unusual, and that our society has legal means to keep us from going there. 

 

Had she said "I wish the constitution didn't exist so I could do such and such " I'd read that differently. Maybe because I've been known to say more than once that IF my religion allowed it, I'd love to wish ill on a certain politician. But my religion says I must pray for my enemies, so I do. Acknowledging that my baser impulses are NOT good, or nice, and that by choosing to follow my religion I am forced to be a better person than I would choose to be. (please.....if you want to debate the religious tenets there do a spin off, don't side track this thread). I don't wish my religion didn't require that of me, I'm glad it does, because my brain can acknowledge that the religion is right and my own personal impulse is wrong. 

 

I took her remarks the same way. She had terrible impulses but our system of laws, which she has voluntarily chosen to uphold as a judge, keep her from following them. 

 

I don't think the judge's words are worth side-tracking from the horrible wrongs perpetrated against these victims.  However, I do believe that as a society, we are at a very fragile tipping point.  We have "leaders" who actively and vocally encourage racism, misogyny, and xenophobia. The words our leaders, those in power who should uphold our laws, really matter. They can inspire our better selves or destroy this nation. 

 

Katie, I wouldn't dream of debating the religious tenets. I respect where you are coming from. While my own Christian faith is in tatters, I still do have a moral code and that is why the judge's words bothered me.

[solascriptura]

nassar lied to investigators, described what correct treatment would have been. he chose at least one medical investigator

- and msu only talked to providers from msu.

 

here had to be recognition by officials - or else why the non-disclosure agreement?

 

i think officials were more about protecting the organization, and afraid of what would happen if it went public.

i think all those who covered up, at the very least, should lose pensions and benefits from those positions.

 

organizations need the message cover ups are more painful than exposure by doing the right thing.

Aren’t all of those people down the line mandatory reporters? What are the consequences of their failure to report? This is sobering for so many people.

[gardenmom5]

Aren’t all of those people down the line mandatory reporters? What are the consequences of their failure to report? This is sobering for so many people.

I hope they're all charged with a crime for not only NOT reporting, but some actively covered up.

 

Eta, if there are no legal consequences for a mandatory reporter not reporting, something needs to change.

Edited January 27, 2018 by gardenmom5

[swimmermom3]

I think this is a topic all it’s own. The need to speak truth within communities is a huge issue. Covering up scandals is endemic across most communities. Cover up, hide, lie, seem to be standard procedure.

 

I think that some communities are definitely worse than others - sports organization, universities, to name a few.

 

I haven't been on for a while. Was there any discussion about the New York Times article on the culture of sexual harassment at the Ford Motor Company?

 

With regards to sexual assault and speaking the truth, I think one of the starting points is for women to listen, really listen to what their sisters are saying and to suspend judgments like, "They deserved what happened to them because of the way they dressed, they way they acted, or for being in the wrong place at the wrong time." 

 

I think we also need to shift from the idea that protecting one powerful man, one much-needed for the championship football player, is worth harming thousands of women. This is a concept I have seen voiced on this board numerous times. I am thinking about the Cosby thread.

 

We, as a culture tend to think that the powerful, the religious, the white skinned, and the males are more prone to speaking the truth and yet, we really have no proof that this is actually the case. 

[Mimm]

 

That is a bad judge. She should go.

 

Bill 

 

I find it kind of nauseating that when women are finally given a fair day in court, a judge is finally willing to give them a voice, you want to see her gone for some comments you don't agree with. I don't agree with them either. I wish she wouldn't have said that. I hope she thinks twice about giving vent to her worst feelings in the future. But those are minor, so very unimportant in light of this case and everything else that happened with it. Her actions, in allowing the victims to speak out, and forcing Nasser to confront what he's done to so many women, all this is so HUGE in comparison to those comments. And it's so freaking typical. Men make all kinds of missteps and get away with it, but a woman does something and it's reprehensible and a man is calling for her job. Of course.

[Pam in CT]

We heard you the first twenty times, dude.

...

This.

 

It actually makes no difference, right or wrong, agree or disagree.  Anything at all on an interweb thread among strangers, 20 times: that's at least 15 times too many.  We got it.

 

 

 

__________

 

re speaking truth, and hearing it, within communities

From an editors in NYT by Racheal Denhollander:

 

Research shows that pedophiles are also reported at least seven times on average before adults take the reports of abuse seriously and act on them. In many ways, the sexual assault scandal that was 30 years in the making was only a symptom of a much deeper cultural problem — the unwillingness to speak the truth against one’s own community.

 

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/26/opinion/sunday/larry-nassar-rachael-denhollander.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

 

I think this is a topic all it’s own. The need to speak truth within communities is a huge issue. Covering up scandals is endemic across most communities. Cover up, hide, lie, seem to be standard procedure.

 

 

I have complex reactions to this #MeToo moment that's erupted.

 

I would add to this list: "shame victims" and "cast aspersion upon people trying to help/advocate for them" and "redirect sympathy to the plight of men afflicted by all this coming out."  

 

 

I am afraid that backlash and furious retrenchment, is as likely an outcome as sustained improvement.  The one element that I am cautiously optimistic will be different for my daughters, as for my generation, that cant be shoved back into Pandora's box is a better understanding of just how depressingly common assault is: they will KNOW they are not the only one in the world to whom it's ever happened.  

 

That is something, I suppose.  Sigh.

[mamaraby]

How do we change our culture to make it so that it becomes expected to speak truth in your own community? Laws certainly don’t do that, as we have seen. It requires, I think, a change in priorities. But, how do we do that?

Part of it has to be that we believe people when they speak up. Look at all those people who do speak up and then have to fight for the right not just to be heard, but to be believed. “Nothing worse than a woman scorned.†“She’s just looking for her payday.†“She didn’t really understand the difference.†“She’s too sensitive.†“Perhaps she misunderstood.†“I didn’t see it.†“She should have...†“maybe what he did was wrong, but she was so unprofessional in how she handled it.†“She didn’t file her complaint with the right person.†Look at how much it costs survivors when they finally do come forward and speak out - jobs, reputation, friends, support systems.

 

Plus then there’s SLAPP suits and people who talk about wanting to loosen up libel laws. For all the talk of fighting for freedom and wanting to up end the apple cart, there’s plenty of institutional entropy and feet dragging.

[bolt.]

My thoughts are that if we get into the "smaller" habit of speaking truth to our communities and about our communities on the little things, that might help.

 

If we got used to taking a deep breath and saying things like, "Preacher, I know you meant no harm but imitating a Pakistani accent for laughs just isn't cool any more." And, "Swim coach, it's not ok to partner kids up to press and pull on each other's stretches -- there's real potential for injury. (Both real examples from my life of things I avoided saying.) Maybe the practice would help?

 

If, when we have some power, influence or leadership maybe we got some experience of not "covering up" smaller issues like that time we heard a fellow teacher making fun of one student in front of other students.

 

If we got used to hearing criticism ourselves and responding with empathetic curiosity: finding ways to make changes instead of feeling ashamed and trying to limit the damage.

 

We also need to somehow get over the hubris that "we just know" what people are (or aren't) capable of.

 

The idea that we can tell good hearted people from good actors with convincing personas is just plain false. We can't. It's impossible. You can't and I can't -- so if someone makes a despicable accusation against someone you "know and love"... that doesn't mean it's not true. Some people are just very good at making others trust them.

[gardenmom5]

 

 

We, as a culture tend to think that the powerful, the religious, the white skinned, and the males are more prone to speaking the truth and yet, we really have no proof that this is actually the case. 

 

we also think that women support women who have been victimized - but that is NOT the case either.  (not even the ones who say "all women should be believed".)

and  not even in this case.  Lindsey Lemke's FEMALE coach pressured/threatened her to stay quiet (telling she needed to work harder or she 'might lose' her scholarship), and told her (and her mother) she was "mis"interpreting the exams/treatment she was receiving from age 12 - 17.

[solascriptura]

we also think that women support women who have been victimized - but that is NOT the case either. (not even the ones who say "all women should be believed".)

and not even in this case. Lindsey Lemke's FEMALE coach pressured/threatened her to stay quiet (telling she needed to work harder or she 'might lose' her scholarship), and told her (and her mother) she was "mis"interpreting the exams/treatment she was receiving from age 12 - 17.

Exactly. Why do people refuse to question or protest against “experts†or people in authority?

[sassenach]

I'm getting personal here...

 

A few years ago I posted on this forum about someone close to me revealing sexual abuse. The advice I received was to follow the victim's lead in whether or not to report it.

 

So we talked. And talked and talked. I *hated* the fact that I had to add more pressure into the decision by reminding the victim that by reporting you could be preventing someone else from being assaulted. I hated it because that's NOT ABOUT THE VICTIM nor what the victim went through. The pressure to report and be responsible for some anonymous, faceless future victim is huge, but it's not about the victim.

 

I don't know if I'm getting my point across or not. Hmph.

 

I guess my point is that no one should feel obligated to reveal or report sexual assault. To many people, it is an intensely personal and private thing.

 

But it needs to be revealed. Because victimizers don't victimize only once. They do it again and again and again.

 

So where's the balance?

Have any of you watched the 3rd season of Broadchurch? The crime is a sexual assault and I think they did such an extremely good job of portraying how complex the decision to report or not is. It was better than anything I've ever seen on the subject.

[gardenmom5]

Part of it has to be that we believe people when they speak up. Look at all those people who do speak up and then have to fight for the right not just to be heard, but to be believed. “Nothing worse than a woman scorned.†“She’s just looking for her payday.†“She didn’t really understand the difference.†“She’s too sensitive.†“Perhaps she misunderstood.†“I didn’t see it.†“She should have...†“maybe what he did was wrong, but she was so unprofessional in how she handled it.†“She didn’t file her complaint with the right person.†Look at how much it costs survivors when they finally do come forward and speak out - jobs, reputation, friends, support systems.

 

Plus then there’s SLAPP suits and people who talk about wanting to loosen up libel laws. For all the talk of fighting for freedom and wanting to up end the apple cart, there’s plenty of institutional entropy and feet dragging.

 

it's so frustrating - because there are women who file fake reports.  (crystal magnum is probably the most infamous of the fake reporters - duke lacrosse. or the rolling stone - where even the writer had a history of filing fake stories.)

they aren't held accountable - but they need to be, because they DO *hurt* every single woman who really was assaulted!

[swimmermom3]

I find it kind of nauseating that when women are finally given a fair day in court, a judge is finally willing to give them a voice, you want to see her gone for some comments you don't agree with. I don't agree with them either. I wish she wouldn't have said that. I hope she thinks twice about giving vent to her worst feelings in the future. But those are minor, so very unimportant in light of this case and everything else that happened with it. Her actions, in allowing the victims to speak out, and forcing Nasser to confront what he's done to so many women, all this is so HUGE in comparison to those comments. And it's so freaking typical. Men make all kinds of missteps and get away with it, but a woman does something and it's reprehensible and a man is calling for her job. Of course.

 

It's not reprehensible. The woman was being "hysterical," that's why she needed to be silenced. I hate that one so much. It is usually said by male politicians that are way more keyed up than the woman they are addressing.

[swimmermom3]

This.

 

It actually makes no difference, right or wrong, agree or disagree.  Anything at all on an interweb thread among strangers, 20 times: that's at least 15 times too many.  We got it.

 

 

 

__________

 

re speaking truth, and hearing it, within communities

 

 

 

I have complex reactions to this #MeToo moment that's erupted.

 

I would add to this list: "shame victims" and "cast aspersion upon people trying to help/advocate for them" and "redirect sympathy to the plight of men afflicted by all this coming out."  

 

 

I am afraid that backlash and furious retrenchment, is as likely an outcome as sustained improvement.  The one element that I am cautiously optimistic will be different for my daughters, as for my generation, that cant be shoved back into Pandora's box is a better understanding of just how depressingly common assault is: they will KNOW they are not the only one in the world to whom it's ever happened.  

 

That is something, I suppose.  Sigh.

 

One of the points that has really stood out to me was how many women tried to silence Nassar's victims.Then I was reading about MSU's issues within their athletic department and seeing there too, victims were discouraged from reporting by other women in positions of authority. 

 

"The redirecting sympathy to the plight of men (gun owners) afflicted by all this coming out (legislation)" makes me think of the mass shooting threads. In both instances, that old cliche keeps rolling around in my head:

 

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. 

[mamaraby]

it's so frustrating - because there are women who file fake reports. (crystal magnum is probably the most infamous of the fake reporters - duke lacrosse. or the rolling stone - where even the writer had a history of filing fake stories.)

they aren't held accountable - but they need to be, because they DO *hurt* every single woman who really was assaulted!

I actually think the spectre of false reports is one of the things that has to fall along the way. Should people be held accountable for making a false report? Yes. The problem is, every time we have a discussion about believing women, false reports gets raised as the counter. But, but, some small fraction of women have lied ergo, shhh..

 

I’m confident you don’t mean it that way, but I’m not going to jump on that bandwagon and silence yet more people who already face huge odds in just reporting what was done to them in order to stop it from happening to others and hold abusers accountable.

 

ETA: I know someone who was falsely accused so I feel the tension there. It’s still not going to be something I think needs to take a front and center part of the solution.

Edited January 27, 2018 by mamaraby

[swimmermom3]

I'm getting personal here...

 

A few years ago I posted on this forum about someone close to me revealing sexual abuse. The advice I received was to follow the victim's lead in whether or not to report it.

 

So we talked. And talked and talked. I *hated* the fact that I had to add more pressure into the decision by reminding the victim that by reporting you could be preventing someone else from being assaulted. I hated it because that's NOT ABOUT THE VICTIM nor what the victim went through. The pressure to report and be responsible for some anonymous, faceless future victim is huge, but it's not about the victim.

 

I don't know if I'm getting my point across or not. Hmph.

 

I guess my point is that no one should feel obligated to reveal or report sexual assault. To many people, it is an intensely personal and private thing.

 

But it needs to be revealed. Because victimizers don't victimize only once. They do it again and again and again.

 

So where's the balance?

 

Kinsa, at least you tried. 

 

A close family member was assaulted and we didn't really talk about reporting it. I felt like I couldn't push for it, because the circumstances were the kind that I've seen such an ugly response to on this board. All of the victim blaming and shaming. I wasn't at all sure if she would emotionally survive the process.

 

I feel like a coward and the guilt weighs heavily. All of my life, I've said I would speak out and I didn't.

 

Obviously, I have no answer to your balance question and it is part of why I am so angry with women who actively participate in judging assault victims. 

[swimmermom3]

My thoughts are that if we get into the "smaller" habit of speaking truth to our communities and about our communities on the little things, that might help.

 

If we got used to taking a deep breath and saying things like, "Preacher, I know you meant no harm but imitating a Pakistani accent for laughs just isn't cool any more." And, "Swim coach, it's not ok to partner kids up to press and pull on each other's stretches -- there's real potential for injury. (Both real examples from my life of things I avoided saying.) Maybe the practice would help?

 

If, when we have some power, influence or leadership maybe we got some experience of not "covering up" smaller issues like that time we heard a fellow teacher making fun of one student in front of other students.

 

If we got used to hearing criticism ourselves and responding with empathetic curiosity: finding ways to make changes instead of feeling ashamed and trying to limit the damage.

 

We also need to somehow get over the hubris that "we just know" what people are (or aren't) capable of.

 

The idea that we can tell good hearted people from good actors with convincing personas is just plain false. We can't. It's impossible. You can't and I can't -- so if someone makes a despicable accusation against someone you "know and love"... that doesn't mean it's not true. Some people are just very good at making others trust them.

 

I really like this post. It feels doable. Hopeful. Thank you!

[Corraleno]

Wise words from Judge Aquilina:

 

"Inaction is an action. Silence is indifference. Justice requires action and a voice. And that is what has happened here in this court."

 

"Leave your pain here and go out and do your magnificent things."

 

"The voices of the survivors have asked everyone: ‘Report. Keep your voice up.'... One in 10 children will be sexually abused by their 18th birthday. One in 7 girls, 1 in 25 boys by their 18th birthday. That means that in the United States, 400,000 babies born in the U.S. will become victims of child sexual abuse. It stops now. Speak out like these survivors, become part of the army.â€