What does the Bible say about lying?

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

and hypocracy? From a Fundamental Christian standpoint, are some sins worse than others? TIA

 

ETA: Also wondering if christians believe that the ends justify the means.

[swellmomma]

I think that according to the bible all sins are equal, so lieing is seen the same as murder. However in my own life I don't feel that way. I tell little white lies to avoid hurting someone's feelings, I also lie to my children when it comes to Santa, the Easter bunny, tooth fairy etc. I do not think those types of lies should be considered sins. As to your second question, that's a tough one to answer, I guess I could say that on occasion they do, after all in order to have my 2 youngest children (the ends) I had to commit what most christians consider a sin (the means) but it was sooo worth it. So sometimes I do think the ends justify the means and vice versa just not in every instance.

[Nestof3]

www.blueletterbible.org

 

You can search for lying, hypocrisy, etc. I find the best way to really understand what the Bible says about something is to actually search it myself, because I find some people's ideas of what the Bible said are based on what they've learned from others, not from actually reading it themselves.

 

Or, this is a good start:

 

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/lying.html

 

http://www.bible-topics.com/Hypocrites.html

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

www.blueletterbible.org

 

You can search for lying, hypocrisy, etc. I find the best way to really understand what the Bible says about something is to actually search it myself, because I find some people's ideas of what the Bible said are based on what they've learned from others, not from actually reading it themselves.

 

Or, this is a good start:

 

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/lying.html

 

http://www.bible-topics.com/Hypocrites.html

I guess I should have phrased my question as "What do Christians believe about...." I'm wondering how individuals view these actions, and how they incorporate the bible's teachings into their everyday lives in these specific areas.

[Plucky]

How does anybody in any walk of life handle it? Why single out Christians? Athiests and other religions have moral views as well and should be held up just as highly to their standards. I've noticed humans are big on expecting others to tow the line but not themselves.

[ma23peas]

swellmomma, you asked a question that could take a while to answer but relying purely on the Bible.

 

1. Thou shalt not bear false witness (so yes, it's a sin)

 

2. All sins are not equal. Mark 3:29 - But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin. Some will say that 'blaspheme' can refer to simply refusing the gift of eternal salvation therefore that sin is eternal...but you didn't ask that.

 

3. We are reminded that ALL sins can be forgiven..but that is reserved for those who have received the gift of salvation...if you need verses for that I could pull some in..but I think I answered your original question.

 

Forgot to answer the ends justifying the means...it is not honoring to God to break his commandments, so therefore if the means require doing that...I would say no.

 

Tara

Edited November 4, 2008 by ma23peas
forgot a 't'

[Spy Car]

Aren't there also times in the Bible where lying is presented as a moral positive, such as in the story of Rahab in Joshua?

 

Bill

[Nestof3]

I guess I should have phrased my question as "What do Christians believe about...." I'm wondering how individuals view these actions, and how they incorporate the bible's teachings into their everyday lives in these specific areas.

 

Do you mind me asking why? I mean, why a Christian's view of lying would be important to you over your own view of lying. Are you considering changing your own stance on lying? I don't mind answering sincere questions, but I really don't want to type up a huge reponse if the motive is other than just wanting to know what a Christian's view on lying is. I hope that makes sense.

[beansprouts]

I had actually considered posting this question a few weeks ago. I do wonder if all lies are considered to be sinful. For example, in Exodus, the midwives lied to the Egyptians to sae the Isralite babies, and God blessed them. Also Rahab lied to save the spies who visited Jericho, and she was saved while the rest of the city perished. I have a hard time believing that people who lied while hiding Jews from the Nazis were sinning. Thoughts?

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

How does anybody in any walk of life handle it? Why single out Christians? Athiests and other religions have moral views as well and should be held up just as highly to their standards. I've noticed humans are big on expecting others to tow the line but not themselves.

I guess you don't understand where I'm coming from. I am honestly questioning how Fundamental Christianity would fit into my already existing belief system, which includes a belief in the christian god and jesus. I am trying not to "guess" how people incorporate these specific things into their life by viewing a few examples from the outside. If I were actively investigating athiesism (which I have already done) I would pose the question on any predominantly athiest board I belong to. If I were posing the question to another religion that I had a sincere desire to investigate I would probably do the same.

[Remudamom]

It's pronounced "egregious".

[Spy Car]

I had actually considered posting this question a few weeks ago. I do wonder if all lies are considered to be sinful. For example, in Exodus, the midwives lied to the Egyptians to sae the Isralite babies, and God blessed them. Also Rahab lied to save the spies who visited Jericho, and she was saved while the rest of the city perished. I have a hard time believing that people who lied while hiding Jews from the Nazis were sinning. Thoughts?

 

My thought is, I beat you by two seconds. Sin of Pride :D

 

Bill (who had to be "honest" :tongue_smilie: )

[Jugglin'5]

I had actually considered posting this question a few weeks ago. I do wonder if all lies are considered to be sinful. For example, in Exodus, the midwives lied to the Egyptians to sae the Isralite babies, and God blessed them. Also Rahab lied to save the spies who visited Jericho, and she was saved while the rest of the city perished. I have a hard time believing that people who lied while hiding Jews from the Nazis were sinning. Thoughts?

 

God rewarded the midwives for telling a righteous lie to save lives.

[LilyK]

the midwives lied to the Egyptians to sae the Isralite babies, and God blessed them. Also Rahab lied to save the spies who visited Jericho, and she was saved while the rest of the city perished. I have a hard time believing that people who lied while hiding Jews from the Nazis were sinning. Thoughts?

__________________

 

I'm really glad that someone brought this up, because I struggle with this when teaching my kids. Obviously those incidents you described cannot be sins, but I hesitate to tell my kids that it's ok to lie when you think it is necessary. How do you guys handle it?

 

OP, I hope I have not veered your thread toward an unwanted tangent.

[Remudamom]

Well, let's say someone breaks into my house, (before I can shoot them and drag them inside). They ask me if I'm alone. I say yes, lying through my teeth because the children are upstairs loading another gun and I don't want to tip him off.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

First of all I love questions like this because I think you are being intellectually honest about your quest for truth and how truth might fit into what you've already decided to be a big part of your life. That's awesome.

 

The Bible is specific in saying that lying is a sin against God. In Exodus 20 we are told in the 10 commandments that lying is breaking one of the commandments. In Revelations God tells us that "...all liars will have a place in the lake of fire."

 

But, I believe in a merciful and gracious God who also tells us in His Word that when a man-made law sets itself up against a law of God, we need to obey God's word. In other words, when those in WWII hid Jews, they were obeying the superior law of God regarding Life and the perservation of it.

 

Why is lying bad? Is it because the Bible tells us it is? No. It's wrong because God is TRUTH and when we lie, we are going against the very nature of God. God is life, when we murder, we are going against His nature. Jesus went further in the New Testament when he was addressing the Law from the Old Testament by telling us that when we hate someone we've already committed murder against them in our heart. He went further than the action straight to the heart because He understood that sin usually begins in the heart.

 

There are no degrees of sin. All sin accomplishes the same purpose, to separate us from our creator. It doesn't matter in God's economy what we've done to separate ourselves from Him, what matters is that we've done that. We go against his nature. In our eyes, there's differences because we justify ourselves into thinking that we are good and not as bad as someone else (I'm so good at that, it's scary!) But in God's eyes, it's all the same. We have chosen behavior that is against His very nature.

 

Hope this helps!!!:001_smile:

[RebeccaC]

I had actually considered posting this question a few weeks ago. I do wonder if all lies are considered to be sinful. For example, in Exodus, the midwives lied to the Egyptians to save the Israelite babies, and God blessed them. Also Rahab lied to save the spies who visited Jericho, and she was saved while the rest of the city perished. I have a hard time believing that people who lied while hiding Jews from the Nazis were sinning. Thoughts?

 

Oh and don't forget that Elisha lied to the Syrian army that was 10,000 strong sent to kill him. Of course he struck them blind first through prayer, then lied, led them by the hand to the king of Israel, then opened their eyes through prayer, and had them fed and sent home....

 

There is a common theme here lying in order to save a life from death is permissible just as killing for self defence, or to save a life, and in war is not murder but permissible for the greater good. It is something vastly different from the ends justify the means as in I am lying to cover the fact that I stole or.....

 

Also the term in the ten commandments was a legal term as in going to court and lying but I digress........

[Jugglin'5]

Preventing murder and rescuing the innocent takes precedence over telling the truth. Otherwise, God would not have praised the midwives and Rahab for their righteous acts, or that guy in Ahab's court who hid Elijah the prophet.

[PariSarah]

Yes, many Christians have an unofficial "ranking" of lesser and greater sins. Some churches or denominations have an official one. I, personally, think that all sin is sin, but that some sin grieves God more than other, that some sin is closer to the satanic (the anti-good) than other sin.

 

Yes, the Bible condemns lying, in many myriad ways (stories, rules, proverbs), and there are no explicit claims that lying (or any other sin) is an appropriate means to any end. There are stories, however, that are notoriously difficult to interpret. In the story of Judah and Tamar, for example, Tamar disguises herself as a prostitute in order to bear a child; her father-in-law, who was supposed to have provided her with a husband, said that she was "more righteous than I" for doing so. Does that mean that the ends justified the means? Can't tell. Judah appears to have thought so, but was he right to have thought so? It's hard to say. The Bible (especially the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament) often tells stories without making it clear whether what happened in the story was right or wrong.

 

More generally, there is a long history of Christian ethics that says that *some* means are justified by *some* ends. This tradition, for example, says that killing is usually wrong, but killing in defense of an innocent neighbor is justifiable, if there is no other way to defend that innocent neighbor. But even the end of defending an innocent neighbor cannot justify all possible means.

 

Augustine takes a little more complicated point of view--sin is always sin, but sometimes the least grievous sin is the best one can do in a horrible situation. The horror of the situation doesn't make the sin anything other than sin, so it can't be called a "good" or "right" choice. But it could be genuinely recognized as less grievous than other options, and penance might be lessened in recognition of the horror of the situation. A "lesser of two evils" approach to ethics is very common today, but I think it worth pointing out that the Christian tradition tends to be very suspicious of that kind of approach.

 

My personal take on lying is that it is grievously wrong, and that it is the most prevalent and ugliest vice in modern Western culture. Truth-telling is a dangerous (in a good way) and fragile practice, and one that is almost completely lost today.

[Alice]

Great post, Sarah.

 

As Sarah pointed out, frequently in the Old Testament people act in a way that it either not clearly right or is clearly wrong and yet they propsper or benefit from their action. Think Jacob tricking Esau out of his birthright or David and Bathsheba. I read those stories as showing that these were real people who sinned. Sometimes their actions were ambigious and sometimes horrible but that didn't mean that their lives couldn't be used for good by God.

 

I believe that sin is sin. I think some sin is "worse" in the sense that it has worse consequences both for those around you and for yourself. But in the sense that every sin is forgiven and every sin is paid for by the death of Christ...all sins are equal.

 

I do believe that lying is wrong. As a Christian it is one of the most complex and difficult things to figure out. This may be a cop-out of sorts but I think for me the following passage is the most helpful when trying to navigate the difficult daily ethical decisions:

 

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." Luke 10

 

There is also the passage where Christ's disciples are going through the wheat field and picking wheat on a Sunday. Or the many passages where Christ heals on the Sabbath.

 

The point being that lying is sin. But if we focus only on the letter of the law we can become too legalistic and forget about the much more commandment to love one another.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Thank you for the replies. But how does one who professes chrsitianity incorporate this "lying is a sin" and "ends do not justify the means" (except in the extreme circumstances noted), into his/her life? We are not in Nazi Germany, nor are any of us (I hope) in the act of defending our homes from armed invaders.

How does this translate into speaking the truth and not using "sinful" means to achieve "good" ends in day-to-day, humdrum life? Do christians shun hypocracy (which I define as a kind of lying), call it out when seen amongst other believers, and exhort each other to speak truthfully?

[LBC]

I guess I should have phrased my question as "What do Christians believe about...." I'm wondering how individuals view these actions, and how they incorporate the bible's teachings into their everyday lives in these specific areas.

 

Well, since you're asking how individuals view these actions, I'll share my personal point of view. Some would disagree - in fact, a few years ago, I may have disagreed.

 

I do not see Christianity as a religion, or as a well laid out set of rules for sin management. When I look at the big picture, I see a Law that was given that could never be kept, and a plan to fix the problem. When Jesus came, He said He was going to fulfill the Law. If He has fulfilled the Law, then we (those who are in Him/ abide in Him/ believe in Him) are no longer under the Law. Paul talks about this often in the books of Romans and Galatians. Jesus also seems to be referring to this in the Sermon on the Mount, as He talks about how impossible it is to keep the law (if you even think about it, it's as bad as doing it).

 

How does this relate to lying? Well, I'm not a liar by nature, but there are other things that I do that would probably be considered sin. My view on all of this is that I am thankful to be free from the Law, because I couldn't possibly keep it. My hope is not in my self righteousness. When God looks at me, He sees Jesus, and what Jesus has accomplished on my behalf.

 

This is how I view sin. I don't try to manage it; I'm just very thankful for what Jesus has done. :001_smile:

 

Lori

Edited November 4, 2008 by LBC
spelling

[Cricket]

There are no degrees of sin. All sin accomplishes the same purpose, to separate us from our creator. It doesn't matter in God's economy what we've done to separate ourselves from Him, what matters is that we've done that. We go against his nature. In our eyes, there's differences because we justify ourselves into thinking that we are good and not as bad as someone else (I'm so good at that, it's scary!) But in God's eyes, it's all the same. We have chosen behavior that is against His very nature.

 

I agree with this. Sin is sin. However, in this life, some sins are more destructive than others. A "white" lie usually doesn't have the same destructive consequences as cheating on your spouse would. But each one of those sins is equally destructive in separating us from God.

 

Also, we live in a fallen world. We are going to sin. Sometimes situations arise where we believe we have no choice to but sin--like hiding Jewish families during WWII and lying to Nazi soliders. I would say that telling a lie to those soliders was still a sin but when looking at the overall picture, I'm glad people did tell those lies. Those people had a choice--hand the people over and have their blood on their hands as well or lie. Either way they would be sinning.

[Spy Car]

I place a very high value on honesty in my personal life.

 

But I can not reconcile the idea that deceiving a clearly evil force (such as NAZIs looking for Jews) is anything but a moral positive, and certainly is not sinful. We have no duty to aid "evil", in fact there is a moral imperative to frustrate evil and to save lives.

 

Calling such things "sinful" seems perverse (to my way of thinking). And such exceptions seem to have clear Biblical validation from my readings of the book.

 

Bill

[Alice]

Here are a couple of examples:

 

Son wants a cookie. I could lie and say "We don't have any." That would be easy and end the discussion. I instead say "No, it's too close to dinnertime." That potentially sets up son to be upset, me to have to deal with it, etc. But in the end it's better because I'm not lying and also I'm having son learn to obey me instead of taking the easy road. (Actually we have no cookies in the house, so this whole example is a lie. :))

 

Husband asks me if his outfit looks ok before going to work. I could lie and say sure so he feels good about himself or I could tell the truth. Better to tell the truth as the short-term hurt from me is better than looking foolish all day. Also better for me not to lie.

 

Similar situation but different outcome: Friend at work asks me if her new haircut looks ok. It doesn't but I know she is very very sensitive and really there isn't much she can do about the haircut now. I could be strict with the law and tell the truth but that would be hurtful to her. I would personally try to find something nice to say but try to avoid a direct lie like "It looks great."

 

I'm involved in a conversation at work that makes it clear that everyone thinks I feel a certain way on a position where I don't. I can be quiet and let them assume that (lie of ommision) or tell the truth and risk making everyone feel uncomfortable. In this situation I would tell the truth but try to do so in a gracious way.

 

I realize this post may make it sound like I really belive in situational ethics...and I don't. For me the Bible is my foundation and I try to act/live according to it's principles. But it's not always explicit and I think there is room for judgment.

Edited November 4, 2008 by Alice
ETA: I was slow in typing but I'm responding directly to the OP's request for "humdrum" examples. :)

[Spy Car]

Or the many passages where Christ heals on the Sabbath.

 

 

Total side note, but it is absolutely within Halakha (Jewish law) for a Jewish physician (or indeed any Jew) to "break" the Sabbath to aid a fellow person who needs first aid.

 

Bill (who is not actually Jewish, but knows this)

[RebeccaC]

Total side note, but it is absolutely within Halakha(Jewish law) for a Jewish physician (or indeed any Jew) to "break" the Sabbath to aid a fellow person who needs first aid.

 

Bill (who is not actually Jewish, but knows this)

 

My mil was ultra orthodox Jew and she assured us that if it was the Sabbath and dh was not home when it was time for me to go have our sons she could drive me and it would not be breaking the Sabbath laws. Otherwise she never drove or use electricity, ect.. on the Sabbath.

 

Dh's step father was hid as a child in Holland during the war both his parents died in the camps as did all of his grandparents, only his brothers and an uncle lived. I would not blink twice when it came to lying to a Nazi or an radical Islamic fundamentalist, or........ if telling the truth meant some one would die or be hurt physically other wise I believe honesty is the best policy.

[beansprouts]

Total side note, but it is absolutely within Halakha (Jewish law) for a Jewish physician (or indeed any Jew) to "break" the Sabbath to aid a fellow person who needs first aid.

 

Bill (who is not actually Jewish, but knows this)

 

The priests will also circumcize a newborn on the eighth day even if it is a Sabbath.

 

When Jesus healed on the Sabbath, he was showing that the Jewish leaders had made their rules more important than devotion to God or human life. I think if we keep in mind Luke 10:27, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and, Love your neighbor as yourself." It is easy to discern what is a sin and what isn't.

[GreenKitty]

Well, let's say someone breaks into my house, (before I can shoot them and drag them inside). They ask me if I'm alone. I say yes, lying through my teeth because the children are upstairs loading another gun and I don't want to tip him off.

 

You and me both!

[beansprouts]

I just wanted to add that I feel strongly that God gave us His word so we can search our own hearts, and make sure we are following His will for our lives. I don't think He intends for us to act as a personal Holy Spirit to others. He knows their hearts, and we don't.

[Amie]

Sorry if this doesn't quite fit in, but I thought I'd add it anyway. I've recently decided to delve into some of Dietrich Bonhoeffer's writings; I just began Ethics. There is an essay in the back, "What is Meant By 'Telling the Truth'". I haven't read it thoroughly yet, and I'm not sure what my thoughts are on it yet, but I thought I'd give a link to it in case anyone is interested. It is deep, but an interesting perspective. He gives an example of a young boy asked by his teacher in front of the class if it is true that his father comes home drunk many nights. The boy tells her no (even though it is true) so as not to "betray his father's weakness in front of the class".

Interesting read, even if you don't entirely agree with him. It should begin on page 601 in the link. (Sorry, I only know how to directly paste the link.)

http://books.google.com/books?id=8tq-dQ6jt_sC&pg=PA601&lpg=PA601&dq=dietrich+bonhoeffer+ethics+telling+the+truth&source=web&ots=epeW12nE6k&sig=t7cRaHR7_EApJTkSNXOaS8UkyRY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPA601,M1

[Alice]

Total side note, but it is absolutely within Halakha (Jewish law) for a Jewish physician (or indeed any Jew) to "break" the Sabbath to aid a fellow person who needs first aid.

 

 

 

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that Jewish law would prohibit acting compassionately. The example I meant was where the Pharisees were being overly legalistic but I didn't mean to imply that all Jews would read the Law or Old Testament in the same way.

[Remudamom]

May I suggest you check out your own signature sites? Perhaps you will find some answers there.

[mcconnellboys]

About lying? Don't.

 

About equality of sins? They're all the same.

[8filltheheart]

and hypocracy? From a Fundamental Christian standpoint, are some sins worse than others? TIA

 

ETA: Also wondering if christians believe that the ends justify the means.

 

To answer the last question first.....no, the end does not justify the means. One cannot commit a moral evil inorder to attain a moral good.

 

 

As far as sin.....not a fundamentalist answer. But here is a Catholic answer:

 

Q. What is a sin?

A. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (C.C.C.) defines a sin as follows:

 

"Sin is an offense against reason, truth and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law." (C.C.C. # 1849)

 

"Sin is an offense against God: 'Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight.' Sin sets itself against God's love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become 'like gods,' knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus 'love of oneself even to contempt of God.' In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation. (C.C.C. # 1850)

 

 

 

 

Q. How many kinds of sins are there?

A. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church,

 

"There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: 'Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.'" (C.C.C. # 1852)

 

 

Other lists are:

"Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers - none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God." [1 Cor. 6:9-10]

 

"And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven: but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven." [Lk. 12:10]

 

"Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." [Rev. 21:7-8]

 

"Outside (of the Kingdom of God) are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." [Rev. 22:15]

 

"If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away that person 's share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." [Rev. 22:19]

 

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves. For this reason many of you are weak and ill, and some have died." [1 Cor. 11:27-30]

 

 

"Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man." But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds." (C.C.C. # 1853)

 

 

 

 

Q. What is a mortal sin?

A. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines a mortal sin as follows:

 

"Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him." (C.C.C. # 1855)

 

"Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the Sacrament of Confession." (C.C.C. # 1856)

 

"Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the private of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance of God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God." (C.C.C. # 1861)

 

"To choose deliberately - that is, both knowing it and willing it - something gravely contrary to the divine law and to the ultimate end of man is to commit a mortal sin. This destroys in us the charity without which eternal beatitude is impossible. Unrepented, it brings eternal death." (C.C.C. # 1874)

 

 

 

 

Q. What is a venial sin?

A. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines a venial sin as follows:

 

"Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it." (To "subsist" means to "exist.") (C.C.C. # 1855)

 

"Venial sin constitutes a moral disorder that is reparable by charity, which it allows to subsist in us." (C.C.C. # 1875)

 

"One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law,or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent." (C.C.C. #. 1862)

 

"Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not set us in direct opposition to the will and friendship of God; it does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. 'Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.'" (C.C.C. # 1863)

 

 

 

 

 

Q. What is the difference between a mortal sin and a venial sin?

A. For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must exist at the same time.

 

1. It must be of a grave matter;

2. It must be committed with full knowledge that it is a mortal sin;

3. It must be committed with full consent. [Full consent means to do it "voluntarily."] (C.C.C. # 1857)

 

Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: 'Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.' The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger." (C.C.C. # 1858)

 

"Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's laws. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin." (C.C.C. # 1859)

 

"When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object... whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbour, such as homicide or adultery... But when the sinner's will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbour, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial." (C.C.C. # 1856)

[Zelda]

Specifically: How does the bible address lying and hypocrisy on internet message boards. Also, where does it stand on goofing on people? Please be specific.

[Remudamom]

Well, if Christians are too hypocritical for you there's always the atheist route. I could be wrong, but I don't think they answer to anyone.

[melmac]

Wow! Why the snarky comments? The majority of responses were intended to be helpful, but why the snarky comments? None of those are very helpful to the op for greater understanding. Can't we all be nice?

[bumbledeb]

I'm not sure exactly what it is you are trying to establish, MeanestMom, but here is my understanding:

 

Christians ought not to lie in their daily life. Christians ought not to be hypocrites. The ends do not generally justify the means if the means are unChristian.

 

The fact that accounts such as the one with Rahab and the spies are included in the Bible demonstrates that there are extreme circumstances under which it is acceptable to withhold the truth.

 

In the daily life of an average Christian in the United States these kinds of extreme circumstances are unlikely, I believe, to occur.

 

Does this mean that you will never meet someone who calls themselves a Christian but is also a lying hypocrite? I wish that were the case.

[Jenny in Atl]

I've never understood way a lie was a sin. I see it as a tool, just like any other tool, that can be used either for good (like protecting someone) or for bad. I think it's impossible to go through life and never tell a falsehood. I could be wrong... I guess never say never.

[Jenny in Atl]

Well, if Christians are too hypocritical for you there's always the atheist route. I could be wrong, but I don't think they answer to anyone.

 

Ouch... so much for love they neighbor.

[nmoira]

 

Well, if Christians are too hypocritical for you there's always the atheist route. I could be wrong, but I don't think they answer to anyone.

You're wrong. I am a responsible adult who answers to myself, my family, my friends, my community and my planet. I believe that it's wrong to deceive for personal gain, whether directly, by spreading idle or unsubstantiated rumors, or instilling fear or hatred to further my goals (or thwart someone else's). I believe it's wrong to keep information from others so they cannot make fully informed decisions. But my overarching belief with respect to others is this: I believe very strongly that it's my responsibility (on whatever scale) to attempt leave this world a better place for my having been in it.

[Nestof3]

You're wrong. I am a responsible adult who answers to myself, my family, my friends, my community and my planet. I believe that it's wrong to deceive for personal gain, whether directly, by spreading idle or unsubstantiated rumors, or instilling fear or hatred to further my goals (or thwart someone else's). I believe it's wrong to keep information from others so they cannot make fully informed decisions. But my overarching belief with respect to others is this: I believe very strongly that it's my responsibility (on whatever scale) to attempt leave this world a better place for my having been in it.

 

This pretty much sums up my views as well -- and I'm a Christian.

[nmoira]

This pretty much sums up my views as well -- and I'm a Christian.

 

:D

[sunshine]

I guess you don't understand where I'm coming from. I am honestly questioning how Fundamental Christianity would fit into my already existing belief system, which includes a belief in the christian god and jesus. I am trying not to "guess" how people incorporate these specific things into their life by viewing a few examples from the outside. If I were actively investigating athiesism (which I have already done) I would pose the question on any predominantly athiest board I belong to. If I were posing the question to another religion that I had a sincere desire to investigate I would probably do the same.

 

If your already existing belief system is that there is no God, as your link that you have in signature professes, why would you wonder if Christianity fits into your belief system. Is your reason to try to question Christians and shake their belief system as your link encourages all atheist or "rational" people to do, until they realize their belief is silly?

Are you sincerely starting to question the existence of an omnipotent God or are you trying to push your "rational" beliefs by using the methods set out on your website whywon'tGodhealamputees.com?

IF that is the case I think you should say upfront that you are an atheist ("rational") and would like to debate with Christians to forward the mission of making Christians feel like they are on the "fringes of society" and foolish to believe. I am quoting from the website "whywon'tGodhealamputees" from your link in your signature. A website for the abolishing all religion.

 

Are you sincere or pushing an anti religious agenda? If you are sincere then I will approach my Pastor regarding the Rahab and midwife incidents. If you are not, please let it be known.

[sunshine]

I place a very high value on honesty in my personal life.

 

But I can not reconcile the idea that deceiving a clearly evil force (such as NAZIs looking for Jews) is anything but a moral positive, and certainly is not sinful. We have no duty to aid "evil", in fact there is a moral imperative to frustrate evil and to save lives.

 

Calling such things "sinful" seems perverse (to my way of thinking). And such exceptions seem to have clear Biblical validation from my readings of the book.

 

Bill

 

Ah Bill, you put it brilliantly!! Thank you!!

[Aggie]

If your already existing belief system is that there is no God, as your link that you have in signature professes, why would you wonder if Christianity fits into your belief system? Is your reason to try to question Christians and shake their belief system as your link encourages all atheist or "rational" people to do, until they realize their belief is silly?

Are you sincerely starting to question the existence of an omnipotent God or are you trying to push your "rational" beliefs by using the methods set out on your website whywon'tGodhealamputees.com?

IF that is the case I think you should say upfront that you are an atheist ("rational") and would like to debate with Christians to forward the mission of making Christians feel like they are on the "fringes of society" and foolish to believe. I am quoting from the website "whywon'tGodhealamputees" from your link in your signature. A website for the abolishing all religion.

 

Are you sincere or pushing an anti religious agenda? If you are sincere then I will approach my Pastor regarding the Rahab and midwife incidents. If you are not, please let it be known.

 

Great questions.

 

Aggie

[Lizzie in Ma]

Well, let's say someone breaks into my house, (before I can shoot them and drag them inside). They ask me if I'm alone. I say yes, lying through my teeth because the children are upstairs loading another gun and I don't want to tip him off.

 

ROTFL! :lol:

[CookieMonster]

Thank you for the replies. But how does one who professes chrsitianity incorporate this "lying is a sin" and "ends do not justify the means" (except in the extreme circumstances noted), into his/her life?

 

I incorporate it into my life by daily trying to live it out. I don't lie to my kids or my husband about something because it would be convenient. I don't lie to the government about my income or giving. I don't lie to the police officer who wants to know how fast I was going. I don't just take the butter I forgot to pay for out of my cart and load it into the vehicle without going back and paying for it.

 

And this spills over into hypocrisy. I don't pretend (intentionally) to be something or someone I'm not. I don't say nice things to someone's face and then gossip behind their back. I don't point at other people's sin, lament it loudly, and parade around a huge suitcase full of it in my heart.

 

Also, the more I have grown in my understanding of the Word, of Who God is, and my own sinful heart, the more I have realized areas where I lie. I think it would be safe to say that each Christian is somewhere different in their walk with the Lord, so any particular Christian might do something that you may know to be wrong, without batting an eye.

 

How does this translate into speaking the truth and not using "sinful" means to achieve "good" ends in day-to-day, humdrum life? Do christians shun hypocracy (which I define as a kind of lying), call it out when seen amongst other believers, and exhort each other to speak truthfully?

 

I think a lot of good comes out of a life of honesty and integrity. I don't think I can adequately convey the idea in words right now.

 

Christians are certianly supposed to shun hypocrisy within themselves. When it comes to others, I think the case gets more complicated. In different instances, the leadership should handle speaking with an offending brother. Sometimes, the blunt counsel of a godly friend is just the thing. Sometimes, we need to just extend grace and love to the individual, recognizing that we too are imperfect, and wait for the kindness of God to lead them to repentance.

 

I hope I have answered some of your questions. It can be quite a big subject.

[Remudamom]

Ouch... so much for love they neighbor.

 

 

There's always pray for those who hate you.