What does the Bible say about lying?

[Laurie4b]

"There are no degrees of sin." Well, no and yes.

 

There certainly are some sins that weigh more heavily than others. One example:

 

John 19:11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."

 

But yes, all sins are equal in that any one of them is enough to separate us from a perfectly holy God, necessitating the intervention of Christ.

 

Lying is a sin in general, but going by the examples in the Bible, lying to save lives is not.

[Liberty]

You're wrong. I am a responsible adult who answers to myself, my family, my friends, my community and my planet. I believe that it's wrong to deceive for personal gain, whether directly, by spreading idle or unsubstantiated rumors, or instilling fear or hatred to further my goals (or thwart someone else's). I believe it's wrong to keep information from others so they cannot make fully informed decisions. But my overarching belief with respect to others is this: I believe very strongly that it's my responsibility (on whatever scale) to attempt leave this world a better place for my having been in it.

 

Yes, I agree that this is most likely the AIM of most humans on earth (of course, there are a few--very few, I believe--exceptions). The reality is that no one (not one single person) practices what they preach 100% of the time. Perfection is impossible. The reason? Because we are humans and we make mistakes. God knew this. And so He sent His Son. IMHO.

[nmoira]

 

Yes, I agree that this is most likely the AIM of most humans on earth (of course, there are a few--very few, I believe--exceptions). The reality is that no one (not one single person) practices what they preach 100% of the time. Perfection is impossible. The reason? Because we are humans and we make mistakes. God knew this. And so He sent His Son. IMHO.

It's not about being perfect. It's about taking responsibility. I tell my children that they will make poor choices.; however, it's usually not our failures and mistakes that tell us who we really are, but rather it's our willingness to take responsibility for them and what we do about them. Because it's either a deflection or a wallow-word, the word "fault" has been banned from our house, outside a geological context.

[SquirrellyMama]

The midwives were following God by not killing the babies. People who lied about having Jewish people in their house were in my opinion also following God and not man. What man was telling them to do was against God. We are to always choose God over man.

 

As Sarah pointed out, frequently in the Old Testament people act in a way that it either not clearly right or is clearly wrong and yet they propsper or benefit from their action. Think Jacob tricking Esau out of his birthright or David and Bathsheba. I read those stories as showing that these were real people who sinned. Sometimes their actions were ambigious and sometimes horrible but that didn't mean that their lives couldn't be used for good by God.

 

Jacob did suffer for his sin. He had to run away never to see his parents again. He was tricked into a marriage he didn't want and then married another woman. He suffered from that sin too. They fought over him, and nagged him constantly about having children. I'm sure that wasn't the most fun. One wife bought him for the night with mandrakes. That is one of my favorite lines in the bible. I wonder sometimes how my dh can stand to be married to even one woman. I can't imagine him being married to two.

 

David and Bathsheba also suffered for their sin. Their child died.

 

There is a lot of suffering for the sins of the heros of the bible. We are still suffering today from some of their sins. Even though they may have prospered they also suffered for their sins.

[emeraldjoy]

I think if we keep in mind Luke 10:27, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and, Love your neighbor as yourself." It is easy to discern what is a sin and what isn't.

 

Yes, yes, yes, and then another yes to this.

thanks.

e

[emeraldjoy]

I just wanted to add that I feel strongly that God gave us His word so we can search our own hearts, and make sure we are following His will for our lives. I don't think He intends for us to act as a personal Holy Spirit to others. He knows their hearts, and we don't.

 

:iagree:Again, thanks for this!

e

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

If your already existing belief system is that there is no God, as your link that you have in signature professes, why would you wonder if Christianity fits into your belief system. Is your reason to try to question Christians and shake their belief system as your link encourages all atheist or "rational" people to do, until they realize their belief is silly?

Are you sincerely starting to question the existence of an omnipotent God or are you trying to push your "rational" beliefs by using the methods set out on your website whywon'tGodhealamputees.com?

IF that is the case I think you should say upfront that you are an atheist ("rational") and would like to debate with Christians to forward the mission of making Christians feel like they are on the "fringes of society" and foolish to believe. I am quoting from the website "whywon'tGodhealamputees" from your link in your signature. A website for the abolishing all religion.

 

Are you sincere or pushing an anti religious agenda? If you are sincere then I will approach my Pastor regarding the Rahab and midwife incidents. If you are not, please let it be known.

 

 

I am not an atheist. If I were, I would have no problem saying it. to tell the truth, i don't know what i am. If you knew me IRL, you would assume I'm christian (we go to church most sundays, celebrate christian holidays, etc), however I do not believe the majority of things christians believe (other than my belief that there is one true god).

the link on my sig is one of the most thought provoking things I have run across in a long time. That's why its there. Some of what is on that site rings incredibly true to me, other things, not so much. I do not feel the need to agree with something 100% to find enough value in it to want to pass it on to others who may be interested. Not everyone on this board believes in religion. If someone does subscribe to a particular religion or belief system and if it challenges that type of person's faith, i would think they would welcome the opportunity to refine their beliefs. an unchallenged faith wouldn't be much of a faith, imo.

what I am trying to do is figure out who I want to identify myself with. The only way I can do this is by judging people or groups of people by the actions i see. even though i can't exactly define my belief system, i know what i want my life to look like, and when i find someone who exhibits the qualities i would consider admirable, i want to know about his/her underlying belief system (even atheists have a personal belief system, btw, it just does not involve a belief in a god). the converse is true, also. when I see someone who exhibits qualities i consider, well...not admirable...i want to know about that person’s underlying belief system as well, so i can steer clear of it.

i have no anti-religious agenda to push. I have seen on this board that many have a religious agenda to push or maybe an anti-anti-religious agenda, so I understand how perhaps any sincere inquiry is met with suspicion.

[beansprouts]

what I am trying to do is figure out who I want to identify myself with. The only way I can do this is by judging people or groups of people by the actions i see. even though i can't exactly define my belief system, i know what i want my life to look like, and when i find someone who exhibits the qualities i would consider admirable, i want to know about his/her underlying belief system (even atheists have a personal belief system, btw, it just does not involve a belief in a god). the converse is true, also. when I see someone who exhibits qualities i consider, well...not admirable...i want to know about that person’s underlying belief system as well, so i can steer clear of it.

 

 

Our model is Jesus Christ. Look to Him, not us. We frail humans will only dissappoint you.

 

ETA: Read John

Edited November 5, 2008 by beansprouts

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I incorporate it into my life by daily trying to live it out. I don't lie to my kids or my husband about something because it would be convenient. I don't lie to the government about my income or giving. I don't lie to the police officer who wants to know how fast I was going. I don't just take the butter I forgot to pay for out of my cart and load it into the vehicle without going back and paying for it.

 

And this spills over into hypocrisy. I don't pretend (intentionally) to be something or someone I'm not. I don't say nice things to someone's face and then gossip behind their back. I don't point at other people's sin, lament it loudly, and parade around a huge suitcase full of it in my heart.

 

Also, the more I have grown in my understanding of the Word, of Who God is, and my own sinful heart, the more I have realized areas where I lie. I think it would be safe to say that each Christian is somewhere different in their walk with the Lord, so any particular Christian might do something that you may know to be wrong, without batting an eye.

 

 

 

I think a lot of good comes out of a life of honesty and integrity. I don't think I can adequately convey the idea in words right now.

 

Christians are certianly supposed to shun hypocrisy within themselves. When it comes to others, I think the case gets more complicated. In different instances, the leadership should handle speaking with an offending brother. Sometimes, the blunt counsel of a godly friend is just the thing. Sometimes, we need to just extend grace and love to the individual, recognizing that we too are imperfect, and wait for the kindness of God to lead them to repentance.

 

I hope I have answered some of your questions. It can be quite a big subject.

thank you for your well thought out resonse.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

It's not about being perfect. It's about taking responsibility. I tell my children that they will make poor choices.; however, it's usually not our failures and mistakes that tell us who we really are, but rather it's our willingness to take responsibility for them and what we do about them. Because it's either a deflection or a wallow-word, the word "fault" has been banned from our house, outside a geological context.

nicely put.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Sorry if this doesn't quite fit in, but I thought I'd add it anyway. I've recently decided to delve into some of Dietrich Bonhoeffer's writings; I just began Ethics. There is an essay in the back, "What is Meant By 'Telling the Truth'". I haven't read it thoroughly yet, and I'm not sure what my thoughts are on it yet, but I thought I'd give a link to it in case anyone is interested. It is deep, but an interesting perspective. He gives an example of a young boy asked by his teacher in front of the class if it is true that his father comes home drunk many nights. The boy tells her no (even though it is true) so as not to "betray his father's weakness in front of the class".

Interesting read, even if you don't entirely agree with him. It should begin on page 601 in the link. (Sorry, I only know how to directly paste the link.)

http://books.google.com/books?id=8tq-dQ6jt_sC&pg=PA601&lpg=PA601&dq=dietrich+bonhoeffer+ethics+telling+the+truth&source=web&ots=epeW12nE6k&sig=t7cRaHR7_EApJTkSNXOaS8UkyRY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPA601,M1

yes, bonhoeffer does make you think, doesn't he?

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

To answer the last question first.....no, the end does not justify the means. One cannot commit a moral evil inorder to attain a moral good.

 

 

As far as sin.....not a fundamentalist answer. But here is a Catholic answer:

 

Wow...thank you. I was raised catholic but had forgotton most of this (or maybe wasn't taught it...i think the last time i was sent to catholic church was early elementary school). very thought provoking. thank you.

[Aggie]

I am not an atheist. If I were, I would have no problem saying it. to tell the truth, i don't know what i am. If you knew me IRL, you would assume I'm christian (we go to church most sundays, celebrate christian holidays, etc), however I do not believe the majority of things christians believe (other than my belief that there is one true god).

the link on my sig is one of the most thought provoking things I have run across in a long time. That's why its there. Some of what is on that site rings incredibly true to me, other things, not so much. I do not feel the need to agree with something 100% to find enough value in it to want to pass it on to others who may be interested. Not everyone on this board believes in religion. If someone does subscribe to a particular religion or belief system and if it challenges that type of person's faith, i would think they would welcome the opportunity to refine their beliefs. an unchallenged faith wouldn't be much of a faith, imo.

what I am trying to do is figure out who I want to identify myself with. The only way I can do this is by judging people or groups of people by the actions i see. even though i can't exactly define my belief system, i know what i want my life to look like, and when i find someone who exhibits the qualities i would consider admirable, i want to know about his/her underlying belief system (even atheists have a personal belief system, btw, it just does not involve a belief in a god). the converse is true, also. when I see someone who exhibits qualities i consider, well...not admirable...i want to know about that person’s underlying belief system as well, so i can steer clear of it.

i have no anti-religious agenda to push. I have seen on this board that many have a religious agenda to push or maybe an anti-anti-religious agenda, so I understand how perhaps any sincere inquiry is met with suspicion.

 

Beansprouts is right....our standard is not people's behavior, but what God says is right.

 

If you want to know the truth, study the truth. When agents are training to identify counterfeit money, they only study real money. They don't study counterfeit bills. This way, they are able to identify false bills because they know everything about the real money. There is no need for them to know about counterfeit money.

 

If you are struggling, which it sounds like you may be, I encourage you to study The Truth first. Become grounded in The Word. If you believe in One True God, your answers about anything else will not come from people who don't believe. (This is coming across as snarky and know-it-all-ish, but it's not intended to, I promise!)

 

Aggie

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Beansprouts is right....our standard is not people's behavior, but what God says is right.

 

If you want to know the truth, study the truth. When agents are training to identify counterfeit money, they only study real money. They don't study counterfeit bills. This way, they are able to identify false bills because they know everything about the real money. There is no need for them to know about counterfeit money.

 

If you are struggling, which it sounds like you may be, I encourage you to study The Truth first. Become grounded in The Word. If you believe in One True God, your answers about anything else will not come from people who don't believe. (This is coming across as snarky and know-it-all-ish, but it's not intended to, I promise!)

 

Aggie

that is the "Truth" according to you, right?

eta: my belief in the one true god may not line up with your "One True God"

[beansprouts]

that is the "Truth" according to you, right?

eta: my belief in the one true god may not line up with your "One True God"

 

 

We aren't debating that. You asked for a model of our faith. We gave it to you.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

We aren't debating that. You asked for a model of our faith. We gave it to you.

no, actually, i asked about a couple of specific qualities/items within a model of faith. but thank you for this post, because my purpose is not to debate.

[Liberty]

It's not about being perfect. It's about taking responsibility. I tell my children that they will make poor choices.; however, it's usually not our failures and mistakes that tell us who we really are, but rather it's our willingness to take responsibility for them and what we do about them. Because it's either a deflection or a wallow-word, the word "fault" has been banned from our house, outside a geological context.

 

I think yours is a very healthy attitude and you are teaching your children a very valuable trait. Both believers and unbelievers would do well to follow the same path.

[bumbledeb]

that is the "Truth" according to you, right?

eta: my belief in the one true god may not line up with your "One True God"

 

I'm thinking the best place to look for the truth about the Bible is the Bible. I've had discussions with people about various doctrinal points over the years until at one point I felt my head was spinning and 'truth' impossible to ascertain. Eventually I reasoned that if God really wants us to know the truth, He wouldn't make it so difficult to understand. So, I picked up a Bible and started reading the gospels. I tried to put myself in the place of someone who knew nothing, had no pre-conceived ideas whatsoever, and tried to just take it all literally as it is written. That cleared everything up for me.

[LilyK]

Do christians shun hypocracy (which I define as a kind of lying), call it out when seen amongst other believers, and exhort each other to speak truthfully?

 

No more, no less than those of other faiths, or those of no faith. Do some Christians do what you asked of in the above quote? Of course. Do others live lives of hypocrisy, which I agree is a form of lying? Of course.

Christians are no different. We simply believe that we are forgiven.

I don't think that you will find the answers you are looking for. I believe that is why some of the other posters suggested that you look directly to the life of Jesus, or go directly to the source text.

 

If you are asking us if Christians are hypocritical liars, the answer is, "yes", "no",and "sometimes."

Edited November 6, 2008 by LilyK
Forgot one word

[sunshine]

I am not an atheist. If I were, I would have no problem saying it. to tell the truth, i don't know what i am. If you knew me IRL, you would assume I'm christian (we go to church most sundays, celebrate christian holidays, etc), however I do not believe the majority of things christians believe (other than my belief that there is one true god).

 

the link on my sig is one of the most thought provoking things I have run across in a long time.

i have no anti-religious agenda to push. I have seen on this board that many have a religious agenda to push or maybe an anti-anti-religious agenda, so I understand how perhaps any sincere inquiry is met with suspicion.

 

 

I have previously checked out the link on your signature. That is why I questioned you. Have you explored the site completely? Maybe you should read the Join Us section. I read it and that is why I asked if you were an atheist trying to push the agenda of eradicating Christianity to the fringes of society. That is what that sites purpose is. It states it clearly that it hopes to use the method of humiliation and mockery to push Christians onto the fringes of society where they would be pitied for not being "normal" people. It is an unbelievably hate filled diatribe and very offensive. But then it is freely attacking Christians and set on eradicating the delusion of God, so it is already accomplishing it's goal because not many people feel called to arms when Christians are verbally insulted, plotted against (as is stated in this link) or mocked. The ACLU does not represent all Americans. If they did I might just give them a call over this website.

 

That is why I questioned you on your sincerity. No you are wrong, if I met you and knew you had this link on your website, and saw you going to church I would not think you were a Christian, not at all. Maybe you missed the Join Us part of the website.

[sunshine]

Id "fault" has been banned from our house, outside a geological context.

 

 

I am kinda liking that... I may have to do the same in this household.

[Erica in PA]

yes, bonhoeffer does make you think, doesn't he?

 

So you are well acquainted with the teachings of *Bonhoeffer*, and yet you do not know what the Bible teaches about lying? :confused:

 

Your signature line is a link to a site where Christianity is mocked and ridiculed, and where the assignment given (in order to reach the goal of beginning to marginalize Christians in society) is to go onto other websites, start discussion about a point of Christianity, and to *link to their site*? Seems to me as though you have followed their directions to the letter.

 

I'm sorry to be skeptical, but I find it extremely hard to believe that your posts are sincere.

 

Erica