s/o - redshirting

[Aura]

So as not to derail another thread...what is meant by "red-shirting" in homeschool?

 

I'm only familiar with that term wrt Star Trek...you know, the poor guys in the red shirts were always the ones that died (except for Scotty, of course). So how does that apply to school? :confused1:  

[luuknam]

Wait, you mean that it has a different meaning than in Star Trek???

 

Anyway, some states require you to declare a grade level. Like, NY does. We have a Dec 1st cut-off, and I have a boy with a Nov birthday, so I could easily have redshirted him by saying he's going into 1st grade this coming year (and K last year, since that was the first year I had to file a notice of intent and other paperwork for him). In fact, since I didn't put a grade level on my notice of intent last year, the school district went ahead and redshirted him themselves, even though his birthday is before the cut-off. Since he's ahead academically, I ended up declaring him as the grade level he'd be in if he were in school (I contemplated declaring him a grade level ahead, but decided against that based on advice I've gotten here, but I just could not make myself declare him as K when he was doing 2nd grade level work). 

[Arcadia]

Some states like New York require parents to declare a grade level for their homeschool child. California only ask what grade levels my kids are in but not their names. So I just declare a 6th and 7th grader for 2016/17 but they don't know the names of my children being homeschooled.

[Aura]

Thanks, y'all.

 

Sports term, huh? No wonder I missed that one.  ;)

[luuknam]

Btw, at certain grade levels we also have to give our kids standardized tests and tell the state that our kids scored >33rd percentile, or else we'd be put on probation. So, that probably encourages redshirting in homeschool in NY. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by luuknam

[luuknam]

I think it was 8 on the other thread who mentioned the whole SAT/ACT thing and college scholarships, which is another reason to redshirt or at least not accelerate kids on paper (and the reason my youngest is officially going into 2nd grade this coming year, rather than into 3rd, despite scoring at the 91st percentile on the end-of-2nd grade test this past spring). 

Edited August 3, 2017 by luuknam

[SparklyUnicorn]

Btw, at certain grade levels we also have to give our kids standardized tests and tell the state that our kids scored >33rd percentile, or else we'd be put on probation. So, that probably encourages redshirting in homeschool in NY. 

 

I did this to cut down on the number of tests I had to give.  Although I then later skipped my kid a grade (he scored the same percentile even after being skipped).  He also plans to technically drop out at 16 (to take the TASC).  My reasoning wasn't really red shirting exactly (for one thing there was no need for it).

[Aura]

In Georgia, we're asked for grade levels and we're supposed to test every other year starting in 3rd grade...but we don't have to report the test results. Georgia's pretty easy, IMO, and it's just not something I've really worried about. Maybe that's why I've never really heard of it...it's just not on my radar.

[Aura]

Now that you mention it, I guess I red-shirted one of mine! LOL It was back when we had to actually fill out monthly attendance forms, and I didn't want to deal with more of those than I had to. :lol:  I didn't list him in my DOI until I had to, even though I started teaching him around 4 yrs.

[luuknam]

I did this to cut down on the number of tests I had to give.  Although I then later skipped my kid a grade (he scored the same percentile even after being skipped).  He also plans to technically drop out at 16 (to take the TASC).  My reasoning wasn't really red shirting exactly (for one thing there was no need for it).

 

 

Huh. I don't think I've heard that reason before. I test mine every year just because.

 

I think in some states where you don't have to declare a grade level some people 'redshirt' their homeschooled kids for outside activities etc. Like, they call their summer or fall birthday kids the grade below so the kid is in that lower grade in Sunday school or w/e (I think I've seen someone say they did that because her kid wasn't reading yet so she didn't want him to stand out badly in Sunday school). 

[gardenmom5]

actually - "red-shirting" comes from college football, and is a way they can stretch out eligibility of a player beyond the four-academic years.

 

not sure how it is used in homeschool.

[luuknam]

Now that you mention it, I guess I red-shirted one of mine! LOL It was back when we had to actually fill out monthly attendance forms, and I didn't want to deal with more of those than I had to. :lol:  I didn't list him in my DOI until I had to, even though I started teaching him around 4 yrs.

 

 

That isn't necessarily redshirting though, unless your state says you have to report at a certain grade level. Here it's by age (the year your kid turns 6), and then we can call our kids whatever grade level we want (though I think the state can question grade level placement... not entirely sure, since they won't question normal redshirting... not sure if they'd question it if you called your 6yo a pre-ker though).

 

ETA: I think they might reject your instructional plan if you planned to teach a 6yo only PreK material, unless you were to submit some evidence that your kid is special needs... of course, that might also vary by school district. They might or might not care about what grade level you *call* your kid though.

 

ETA2: Not dealing with paperwork until you're legally required to is just common sense!  :lol:

Edited August 3, 2017 by luuknam

[SparklyUnicorn]

Huh. I don't think I've heard that reason before. I test mine every year just because.

 

I think in some states where you don't have to declare a grade level some people 'redshirt' their homeschooled kids for outside activities etc. Like, they call their summer or fall birthday kids the grade below so the kid is in that lower grade in Sunday school or w/e (I think I've seen someone say they did that because her kid wasn't reading yet so she didn't want him to stand out badly in Sunday school). 

 

I'd prefer not to declare a grade level, but whatever. 

 

No extra curricular thing has ever asked me to give a grade level. 

[heartlikealion]

We were asked to bring box tops for our homeschool group and date the bag with their graduation year. I thought, "what??" Graduation dates seem so open-ended with homeschooling to me. I didn't have any with me to donate so I didn't. Don't make me think about graduation when my son is entering 4th LOL

[SparklyUnicorn]

We were asked to bring box tops for our homeschool group and date the bag with their graduation year. I thought, "what??" Graduation dates seem so open-ended with homeschooling to me. I didn't have any with me to donate so I didn't. Don't make me think about graduation when my son is entering 4th LOL

 

Yeah really, I'm just trying to make it through the week half the time.  LOL

[luuknam]

I'd prefer not to declare a grade level, but whatever. 

 

No extra curricular thing has ever asked me to give a grade level. 

 

 

Here there are a few things that are for grades K-2, 3-5, etc. Including summer camp, which is entering grades 2+. That said, some of those things don't appreciate kids whose age is different from their grade either... like, summer camp would not have been cool with me sending my then-5.5yo last summer, even if I'd officially declared him to be entering 2nd grade (which I easily could've done without any trouble - just one little grade skip). 

 

I agree that I'd prefer to not declare a grade level. Not a fan of grades and the factory or assembly line model of education at all. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by luuknam

[SparklyUnicorn]

Here there are a few things that are for grades K-2, 3-5, etc. Including summer camp, which is entering grades 2+. That said, some of those things don't appreciate kids whose age is different from their grade either... like, summer camp would not have been cool with me sending my then-5.5yo last summer, even if I'd officially declared him to be entering 2nd grade (which I easily could've done without any trouble - just one little grade skip). 

 

I agree that I'd prefer to not declare a grade level. Not a fan of grades and the factory or assembly line model of education at all. 

 

Oh yeah I gave up on all of that.  I just put them in whatever the age says.  I let the fact that doesn't work out be a nice surprise for them.  :laugh:

 

Interestingly though, one of my kids is "old" and the other one is "young".  Meaning one was always more comfortable around much older people and the other around much younger people.  I don't know how they both can be related to me.

[luuknam]

Oh yeah I gave up on all of that.  I just put them in whatever the age says.  I let the fact that doesn't work out be a nice surprise for them.  :laugh:

 

 

Well, see, the Y's summer camp says it's for kids entering grade 2+, but then the online registration has birth date cut-offs, so I'd need to get someone to override the system. So, while they refuse to take kids who haven't completed 1st grade, I can't *make* them take my kid who has completed 1st grade if the kid's birth date is not accepted by their computer system. Not that I wanted to send my then-5.5yo to sleep away camp (I mean, part of me did, because vacation for me, but I didn't think it'd be in the kid's best interest to be a full year younger than the youngest other kids, and multiple years younger than most of the other kids). He went this summer at 6.5yo when he was either the youngest or almost the youngest, and he had a blast. I don't know how things would've turned out if I'd sent him last summer... but sometimes there is something to be said for common sense as well. I mean, camp had almost nothing to do with academics, so, who cares? (I'm not sure why they wanted kids to have completed 1st grade)

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, see, the Y's summer camp says it's for kids entering grade 2+, but then the online registration has birth date cut-offs, so I'd need to get someone to override the system. So, while they refuse to take kids who haven't completed 1st grade, I can't *make* them take my kid who has completed 1st grade if the kid's birth date is not accepted by their computer system. Not that I wanted to send my then-5.5yo to sleep away camp (I mean, part of me did, because vacation for me, but I didn't think it'd be in the kid's best interest to be a full year younger than the youngest other kids, and multiple years younger than most of the other kids). He went this summer at 6.5yo when he was either the youngest or almost the youngest, and he had a blast. I don't know how things would've turned out if I'd sent him last summer... but sometimes there is something to be said for common sense as well. I mean, camp had almost nothing to do with academics, so, who cares? (I'm not sure why they wanted kids to have completed 1st grade)

 

Yeah I don't know.  Trying to imagine why they'd care.  Maybe kids are better at following instructions from a teacher figure by that point? 

[Lawana]

In Georgia, we're asked for grade levels and we're supposed to test every other year starting in 3rd grade...but we don't have to report the test results. Georgia's pretty easy, IMO, and it's just not something I've really worried about. Maybe that's why I've never really heard of it...it's just not on my radar.

By Georgia law, you are not required to assign a grade for your child. They may ask for one, but you are not required to give it. You must, in your letter of intent, supply the name and age of each student, as well as the address of the homeschool and the dates of your homeschooling year. Standardized tests are required to be administered every three years beginning in 3rd grade.

[Arcadia]

We were asked to bring box tops for our homeschool group and date the bag with their graduation year. I thought, "what??" Graduation dates seem so open-ended with homeschooling to me. I didn't have any with me to donate so I didn't. Don't make me think about graduation when my son is entering 4th LOL

That is kind of weird to have to write the graduation year for box top donations. My local public schools has the box top donation box at the general office so I just dump the box top into those donation boxes if I happen to have any and my kids are having activities hosted at that school.

 

SAT and AP registration does have a field for graduation year. I just put 2022 for my going to be 8th grader. My husband called Collegeboard for SAT and AP results and he asked me what our kids' graduation year was because the customer service rep wanted that information to tally with their records. I think ACT ask for graduation year too.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Arcadia

[SKL]

Well, see, the Y's summer camp says it's for kids entering grade 2+, but then the online registration has birth date cut-offs, so I'd need to get someone to override the system. So, while they refuse to take kids who haven't completed 1st grade, I can't *make* them take my kid who has completed 1st grade if the kid's birth date is not accepted by their computer system. Not that I wanted to send my then-5.5yo to sleep away camp (I mean, part of me did, because vacation for me, but I didn't think it'd be in the kid's best interest to be a full year younger than the youngest other kids, and multiple years younger than most of the other kids). He went this summer at 6.5yo when he was either the youngest or almost the youngest, and he had a blast. I don't know how things would've turned out if I'd sent him last summer... but sometimes there is something to be said for common sense as well. I mean, camp had almost nothing to do with academics, so, who cares? (I'm not sure why they wanted kids to have completed 1st grade)

 

My guess is that if you've finished 1st grade, they figure you probably don't have a problem being away from your mom for extended time periods.

 

Somewhat different, but when my kid was 4 I contacted several schools trying to get them to accept her into KG.  Due to her January birthday, they would not even discuss it.  Nope nopey nope.  In December, a small charter KG decided to take her (after previously refusing adamantly).  Come Spring I needed to explore whether any school would take my kid into 1st grade at age 5.  Surprisingly, every school I asked said "yes, as long as she has completed KG she can enter 1st, no matter her age."  Whatever.  I never did understand the logic.  I guess they didn't want to have to be her testing ground to find out if she would survive early entry?

 

Camp cutoffs (and scouts too) have been an issue at times.  Not a life-changing issue, but an annoyance.  The zoo camp is broken up by age - ages 5-6 means my kids were going into 2nd but most of the kids were entering K or 1st.  It was pretty lame that year.  :p  I decided only to send my kids to that camp when they were on the younger end of the age range.  :p  "Grade school" gym classes were closed to them until they were in 2nd.  And don't even get me started about the AHG age cutoffs.  :p

Edited August 3, 2017 by SKL

[Petrichor]

I read through this kind of quickly, but did nobody mention that parents redshirt for public/brick and mortar schools too?

 

The idea being if your kid is going to be the youngest x grader, they don't stand a chance against the oldest x grader, especially if your kid is a boy, since boys tend to be a bit behind in the early years. If you want to give your kid a better chance at succeeding, you put them in a level that will make it easier for them. A 7 yr old 1st grader will learn to read quicker than a 5 yo 1st grader. 

 

That said, I did wait half a year to get serious with DS's (early summer b-day) school. We school Jan-Dec. But we don't have to report grade level in our state. 

 

BTW, no judgement in the above paragraph. Just trying to explain the idea behind it. :D

 

[maize]

Btw, at certain grade levels we also have to give our kids standardized tests and tell the state that our kids scored >33rd percentile, or else we'd be put on probation.

This rule seems ridiculous to me. Do public schools get put on probation if they have students score in the bottom 1/3rd percentile on a standardized test?

 

I mean, for every child who scored at the 90th percentile there should be a student scoring at the 10th. For every student at the 70th we should expect to see a student at the 30th

 

In a random sample of 100 kids we would expect to find 33 below the 33rd percentile.

 

In a random sample of 10, 3 on average would be below that percentile.

[Bluegoat]

I read through this kind of quickly, but did nobody mention that parents redshirt for public/brick and mortar schools too?

 

The idea being if your kid is going to be the youngest x grader, they don't stand a chance against the oldest x grader, especially if your kid is a boy, since boys tend to be a bit behind in the early years. If you want to give your kid a better chance at succeeding, you put them in a level that will make it easier for them. A 7 yr old 1st grader will learn to read quicker than a 5 yo 1st grader. 

 

That said, I did wait half a year to get serious with DS's (early summer b-day) school. We school Jan-Dec. But we don't have to report grade level in our state. 

 

BTW, no judgement in the above paragraph. Just trying to explain the idea behind it. :D

 

 

Yeah, Really, this is more what its about than anything homeschoolers do.  Some kids aren't ready for school,either academically or in terms of maturity, the year they are due to go. 

 

Here we register for homeschool by grade.  It  doesn't affect what we teach, but if your kid ever goes into public school, it will determine the grade.  So, I  registered my kids according to where I thought they would fit in public school, which means my slow developing son started K at 6.5.

 

[Caclcoca]

My oldest ds went to public school for K and 1st.  We "red shirted" him (even though we didn't know that it was called that at the time).  He was very smart, but he had a speech delay (and a July birthday).  The speech therapist at the school wanted us to send him because of his academic level. I just couldn't let him go to this huge new school and not be able to communicate clearly.  I didn't know enough about homeschooling at the time to teach him at home. He is in the 10th grade now.  We still think waiting that extra year was the best plan. Fast forward seven years to my youngest turning 5 in July.  We were homeschooling, so I could just start teaching him at home.  He didn't have to navigate the big school  He was very social, but he had no interest in "school." We decided that we could start school at 5 and hate each other by Christmas, or we could wait a year.  We waited a year.  It gave us time to battle some vision issues.  This is our example of academic "red shirting" for public school and homeschool.

[luuknam]

This rule seems ridiculous to me. Do public schools get put on probation if they have students score in the bottom 1/3rd percentile on a standardized test?

 

I agree, but I didn't write the law. 

 

Here we register for homeschool by grade.  It  doesn't affect what we teach, but if your kid ever goes into public school, it will determine the grade.  

 

Here the school gets to make the final determination as to grade placement, though I do think you're more likely to end up with the grade you want if it's the grade you officially declared your kid as. Which is the main reason I was very tempted to grade skip my youngest on paper when I had to declare him... it'd still be an uphill battle to get the school to put my 6.5yo into 3rd grade this coming year if I'd declared him as 2nd grade last year, but what with having declared him as 1st grade last year it's exceedingly unlikely... that said, I do have the test results to back up that the kid should be going into 3rd grade... it's really tough to decide grade placement, between the possible need to put a kid into public school (probably only if something were to happen to me) and the need for the kid to win some scholarships for college. I think college in Canada is more affordable and not as competitive, right?

 

My oldest ds went to public school for K and 1st.  We "red shirted" him (even though we didn't know that it was called that at the time).  He was very smart, but he had a speech delay (and a July birthday).  The speech therapist at the school wanted us to send him because of his academic level. I just couldn't let him go to this huge new school and not be able to communicate clearly.  

 

 

Ironically, my oldest (August birthday) ended up in full day public school at 3 years 3 days old *because* he had a massive speech/language/communication delay (he was in a mixed SpEd/regular ed class). So, 2 years of pre-K like that, and then K, so he was not redshirted (a 3rd year of Pre-K really wouldn't have made sense). Then regular K was a lot like K used to be, with lots of play time... until we moved in the middle of K, and ended up in "all the kids are writing in sentences" land. That teacher started talking about possibly repeating K right away, but then by the time summer loomed she didn't even remember saying that and was saying he definitely should continue on to 1st grade.  :001_rolleyes: I started homeschooling him in 3rd grade (I'd always wanted to, but between his special needs and lack of money etc school seemed like the best choice for a while). He still has speech issues and is turning 10 this month. 

Edited August 4, 2017 by luuknam

[AFwife Claire]

We're planning on doing this for our 4th son this year.  He turned 14 in June, and would have been entering high school this year.  But several things have made us feel like he would benefit from an extra year before his grades/classes count as high school.  

 

For example, he took TPS English 1 this year, a junior high class, and he didn't get a high enough average to automatically go into English 2 next year (they want an 80 or 85, I think).  He wasn't far off, but the reason he didn't do so well was basic maturity issues, and not realizing when he needed to ask for help when he wan't understanding the teacher's feedback.  So next year he's taking Journey Through Narnia, another junior high level class.

 

He's doing fine in math, which was algebra 1 this year (not brilliant, but okay--it's not as intuitive for him as it has been for his older brothers)--but he did not do very well on some math parts of the Stanford standardized test he did in May.  He said he "forgot" how to do some of the more basic math, so clearly we need to spend some time boning up on that.

 

He's short and has just started puberty.  He naturally gravitates toward kids a little younger than him, and his maturity level fits that.

 

He also is following 3 very successful older brothers, and he just needs some time to develop his own self.  His next older brother has only been one school year ahead of him, so they would have graduated one right after the other.  I really think it will be better for DS4 to have that second year as being the oldest, without being in anyone else's shadow, while he kind of figures out what he'd like to do in life.  So far he has no clue and no real direction, lol.

 

So when I sent in my notice of intent, I just put that he was in 8th grade again.  I would never have even thought of doing this except that another friend did that for her summer birthday son (except he had two 9th grade years), and it has worked out so marvelously for him.  I remember her telling me, "My son is a weak 9th grader--but he would be a strong 8th grader."  It was so true, and her son gained so much confidence from being now the oldest, instead of being the youngest, and always feeling like he had to "catch up".  He was another late-bloomer, but now he is a recruited NCAA division 1 runner.  The extra year *definitely* helped there, as he needed the time to physically mature!

 

I feel like this is another advantage to homeschooling.  As I told my son, this doesn't change any of the classes he is taking, or the friends he is taking them with.  It just gives him an extra year to take more classes, hopefully as he knows kind of what he might like to specialize in.  

Edited August 4, 2017 by AFwife Claire

[Greta]

So as not to derail another thread...what is meant by "red-shirting" in homeschool?

 

I'm only familiar with that term wrt Star Trek...you know, the poor guys in the red shirts were always the ones that died (except for Scotty, of course). So how does that apply to school? :confused1:

Thank you for asking, because as a Trek nerd myself, and therefore almost by definition not a sports person, every time I would see someone talking about red-shirting their kid, part of my brain would protest, "Nnnoooo! Do not send your kid on the away-mission!" :lol:

[catz]

We don't have to declare grade when we file homeschool paperwork.  We just have to file paperwork between the ages of 6 and 16 by Oct 1 I think.  Interesting.  They would just place a child by age if we went back into the school system - they wouldn't care what grade you call your child.  I actually know someone who is putting their child back into school this fall and they made her drop back to age grade, even though mom was calling her a grade ahead.  Socially it's definitely the right spot and this school says they have good GT programming.

 

In my head, I think it's a bit silly to declare a homeschooled child grade skipped in early elementary even if they're wildly ahead.  My oldest was reading middle school chapter books in kindergarten in B&M school & complained to his teachers all year about not doing fractions the 2 years he was in school.  This is a big reason we pulled out of the school system.  He hit the ceiling of the school's GT screener and regularly tests > 99% at grade level.  But you can do whatever you want at home.  If that kid got through puberty and was very focused and motivated about a particular path, I'd totally consider graduating him early.  But he's not.  Middle school years were kind of air headed. Motivation and executive function has been slower to come.  He's taken the back roads.  In the meantime, let's get a nicer transcript in place so merit scholarships and competitive schools might be possible if those are of interest.  I know others who've made that push ahead early and had to undo it.  Or WISHED they could undo it but felt stuck.  I guess I'd rather push ahead later than earlier.  If we had to make a drop into B&M school, we would weigh the options.

 

There are kids working at many levels in most B&M schools.  My son's first grade class had kids still struggling with the alphabet to musing over Harry Potter books (we're near a University - high percentage GT). 

 

As someone who has done volunteering with many kid oriented groups - sometimes age ranges are about liability insurance too.  It's inherently riskier to take a group of younger kids on an overnight and I see why sometimes programs draw a hard line for sure.  When a parent says their child is extra mature that's just not always accurate information.  Especially if that kid is their first or only child.  I teach classes and play hard ball with it now.  The other thing is when kids are reaching and past puberty, they don't care if your 10 year is doing algebra and can discuss Shakespeare.  Teen want to do activities and classes with other teens to young adults.   My 10 year old was actually kind of that kid.  He was pretty annoying to older kids.  LOL.  His best peer group has always been the quirky close to age peers. 

Edited August 4, 2017 by WoolySocks

[teachermom2834]

I never wanted to redshirt my late birthday boys but the fact that red shirting was the norm did make it difficult. Not only would they be among the youngest in their grade but all the similar maturity boys redshirted. So instead of just being among the youngest but in normal range, now he was 4 or 5 months younger and all his age and maturity appropriate peers were a grade below. It wasn't a huge problem in homeschooling but it did come up in sports, church etc for one of my boys. I was pretty frustrated about it for a few years and considered keeping him back in middle school.

 

Well, now he is starting senior year at home and he is ready to wrap up high school and go off to college. Having him in high school for another year would seem inappropriate now. All that to say kids change over time and another benefit of homeschooling is the flexibility to adapt to that. I could have easily kept him back a year at some point or graduated him early if he was ready.

 

I understand red shirting is great for some kids and the right decision. I will admit to being irked that ALL spring boys redshirted in our town. I felt like my kid was fine but all his peers were not there- so my kid looked very immature compared to the boys in his grade that had the redshirt year on him.

[Ottakee]

AFwife Claire said it well. Maturity comes into play so much by highschool.

 

My SIL is a teacher and she said she can always pick out the youngest boys in the class.

 

The extra year can be such a gift for a child....to be towards the top of the class maturity and academic wise is huge.

[luuknam]

In my head, I think it's a bit silly to declare a homeschooled child grade skipped in early elementary even if they're wildly ahead.  My oldest was reading middle school chapter books in kindergarten in B&M school & complained to his teachers all year about not doing fractions the 2 years he was in school.  This is a big reason we pulled out of the school system.  He hit the ceiling of the school's GT screener and regularly tests > 99% at grade level.  But you can do whatever you want at home.  If that kid got through puberty and was very focused and motivated about a particular path, I'd totally consider graduating him early.  But he's not.  Middle school years were kind of air headed. Motivation and executive function has been slower to come.  He's taken the back roads.  In the meantime, let's get a nicer transcript in place so merit scholarships and competitive schools might be possible if those are of interest.  I know others who've made that push ahead early and had to undo it.  Or WISHED they could undo it but felt stuck.  I guess I'd rather push ahead later than earlier.  If we had to make a drop into B&M school, we would weigh the options.

 

 

On the one hand, I completely agree, on the other hand though, I think it's really odd to call a kid an xth grader if they're doing y grade level work in all subjects (I realize there are kids who are all over the place... I've got one of those as well). As a European, I especially think it's odd to do so for some nebulous potential future scholarship reasons (where I'm from, there are no scholarships - the govt just keeps university very affordable (iirc tuition & fees were about $2000/year when I graduated high school) and then the govt also offers fin aid). (and yes, I get that I need to deal with the system I'm in, which is why my youngest is officially a 2nd grader, and why either kid might end up with a second 8th grade year, or with zero 8th grade years, or w/e... just saying that it's all quite weird to me)

[Bluegoat]

I agree, but I didn't write the law. 

 

 

Here the school gets to make the final determination as to grade placement, though I do think you're more likely to end up with the grade you want if it's the grade you officially declared your kid as. Which is the main reason I was very tempted to grade skip my youngest on paper when I had to declare him... it'd still be an uphill battle to get the school to put my 6.5yo into 3rd grade this coming year if I'd declared him as 2nd grade last year, but what with having declared him as 1st grade last year it's exceedingly unlikely... that said, I do have the test results to back up that the kid should be going into 3rd grade... it's really tough to decide grade placement, between the possible need to put a kid into public school (probably only if something were to happen to me) and the need for the kid to win some scholarships for college. I think college in Canada is more affordable and not as competitive, right?

 

 

 

Ironically, my oldest (August birthday) ended up in full day public school at 3 years 3 days old *because* he had a massive speech/language/communication delay (he was in a mixed SpEd/regular ed class). So, 2 years of pre-K like that, and then K, so he was not redshirted (a 3rd year of Pre-K really wouldn't have made sense). Then regular K was a lot like K used to be, with lots of play time... until we moved in the middle of K, and ended up in "all the kids are writing in sentences" land. That teacher started talking about possibly repeating K right away, but then by the time summer loomed she didn't even remember saying that and was saying he definitely should continue on to 1st grade.  :001_rolleyes: I started homeschooling him in 3rd grade (I'd always wanted to, but between his special needs and lack of money etc school seemed like the best choice for a while). He still has speech issues and is turning 10 this month. 

 

A little more affordable, and less competitive - or I would actually say overheated - for sure.  A good student will almost certainly get a place, and there isn't the issue of ranking of schools in the same way.

 

[scoutingmom]

I did the opposite for my daughter. Her birthday was 7 days after the cuttoff. That year, If going to PS, she would have been a K student. If we lived 2 miles North, she would have been evaluated and almost assuredly would have been put into grade 1. The ones district evaluates kids born within one month of the cutoff, the other has a strict cut off. Once we had to notify, I put her in the higher grade.

 

At church they use the same cuttoff, but she has moved back and forth between the classes depending on various factors. (1 year there were 2 students in her church class... with their birthdays she was almost 1 year older (he was right before the cutoff) and she was advanced and he wasn't. They ended up moving her up and him down for that year)

 

In scouting she has moved up early because of her grade. It was the right decision, but at the one transition I really had to verify her grade.

 

And yes, we have to legally declare the grade here.

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[heartlikealion]

I did the opposite for my daughter. Her birthday was 7 days after the cuttoff. That year, If going to PS, she would have been a K student. If we lived 2 miles North, she would have been evaluated and almost assuredly would have been put into grade 1. The ones district evaluates kids born within one month of the cutoff, the other has a strict cut off. Once we had to notify, I put her in the higher grade.

 

At church they use the same cuttoff, but she has moved back and forth between the classes depending on various factors. (1 year there were 2 students in her church class... with their birthdays she was almost 1 year older (he was right before the cutoff) and she was advanced and he wasn't. They ended up moving her up and him down for that year)

 

In scouting she has moved up early because of her grade. It was the right decision, but at the one transition I really had to verify her grade.

 

And yes, we have to legally declare the grade here.

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

 

My parents moved when I was around K. I had missed a cut off date for K in one state. They talked to the school and the school gave them a choice. I had been in preschool for a couple of years prior I think (I could be wrong on that, but I feel like my mom told me I went more than one year) so my parents were thinking it was okay to put me in first. The school said I was too far behind for the first grade room because I could not read. Then they put me in the K-1 class where there were a smaller number of first graders and the rest were Kers. The teacher worked more with the K students and the teacher aid worked more with the first graders. It was a struggle at first, but later on in life I appreciated being where I was. I felt less rushed in college because I was younger and took longer than I had hoped to finish. For example, I could have left community college a semester earlier but I decided to stay to get my AA.

[catz]

On the one hand, I completely agree, on the other hand though, I think it's really odd to call a kid an xth grader if they're doing y grade level work in all subjects (I realize there are kids who are all over the place... I've got one of those as well). As a European, I especially think it's odd to do so for some nebulous potential future scholarship reasons (where I'm from, there are no scholarships - the govt just keeps university very affordable (iirc tuition & fees were about $2000/year when I graduated high school) and then the govt also offers fin aid). (and yes, I get that I need to deal with the system I'm in, which is why my youngest is officially a 2nd grader, and why either kid might end up with a second 8th grade year, or with zero 8th grade years, or w/e... just saying that it's all quite weird to me)

 

It's really interesting having a European perspective!

 

I feel like if I pick up 3 third grade workbooks and 3 algebra texts, the scope, sequence, and rigor won't be the same.  The kid doing 3rd grade beast academy is doing more rigorous math than the kid using TT or CLE.  The 3rd grade using MCT is having a different experience than the child not ready to start grammar. I know kids graduating without having read any classic literature.  I know kids assigned a classic every month for 4 years. The public schools here have one standard and any private schools might have others.  The couple of high end private schools here that are an assembly line to competitive colleges have drastically different graduation standards than the public schools.  And there are kids in the public schools that do jump into APs and dual enrollment early and end up in a similar place as many of those private school kids.  My oldest is now 16.  I have seen young boys struggle through the middle school to high school period.  He's got 2 friends that will be seniors this fall that are just a few months older than him and their parents are concerned about their readiness to move on to college.  Both are super bright kids.  In the US there is a lot of pressure and advantage to be able to have your kid fullly 4 year launch ready when they graduate.  If we had a more flexible and affordable system, maybe that would go away. 

 

In terms of B&M schooling, I'd love to see the whole curriculum system scrapped and have what a particular student working on entirely decoupled with age.  Why does a bright kid deserve less years of a free and appropriate for them public education?  I'd love to see the college tuition nightmare end for kids that show work ethic and smarts. 

 

Our state does offer free college tuition and books for juniors and seniors to dual enroll and my 16 year old will be starting that this fall.  I know people who live rural who can't dual enroll and have chosen to graduate a kid early for that reason.  I can see that might make sense.  I also know 1 particular parent who had a kid a highly competitive coast college who had graduated early.  He had to bring her home because she kept getting drunk and ending up in the ER.  Being ready for college level classes doesn't necessarily mean ready for the full on dorm 4 year experience.  

 

Part of the beauty of homeschooling is taking a more holistic view to your child's academic, social, emotional, executive function, maturity, etc.  There is always more, deeper, wider that you can go.

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by WoolySocks

[Zinnia]

I redshirted 3 of mine. One is gifted (and ADHD,which we suspected but didn't know at kindy), two are dyslexic. All are boys. I teach them at their levels, all over the map. Grade level doesn't affect that

 

I like them being the oldest in things like Sunday school, camp, and co-op classes. It works better for them.

[maize]

On the one hand, I completely agree, on the other hand though, I think it's really odd to call a kid an xth grader if they're doing y grade level work in all subjects.

 

 

Grade level of material is so arbitrary though.

 

Last year I had a very bright 8/9 year old with some learning difficulties doing 1st grade work in her academic subjects. Would you find it odd that I didn't call her a 1st grader? If she is starting out this coming year still working at that arbitrarily designated first grade level should I still call her a 1st grader? Then if she jumps several levels (as I think she is poised to do in both reading and math) should she suddenly become a 4th or 5th grader?

[Katy]

In terms of public schools or states where home school kids can take part in sports in their local public schools, another common reason to redshirt a boy is for athletic ability & (eventual) college scholarships. This tends to happen more in large, upper middle class school districts and in athletic families, IME.  Others do so for academic reasons - redshirting seems to give boys more confidence.

 

In terms of homeschool, to me this means for younger boys working in tiny chunks on the basics, but most of them day is spent with enrichment activities or play. IME girls tend to be ready for 3rd grade level curricula ahead of most boys.  It is important to let them go at their own pace though, and IME boys may start out behind girls for the first few years but then leap equal or ahead somewhere between 8-9.  Again, just my limited experience. Diligence and challenging curriculum is much more important for long term results than early success.  If anything, early success backfires because a child thinks they like school because it comes easy to them.  When they are out of the phase where everything is easy, it becomes much more difficult for a child who is used to everything coming easy to develop the work ethic that other kids needed all along.

 

This rule seems ridiculous to me. Do public schools get put on probation if they have students score in the bottom 1/3rd percentile on a standardized test?

I mean, for every child who scored at the 90th percentile there should be a student scoring at the 10th. For every student at the 70th we should expect to see a student at the 30th

In a random sample of 100 kids we would expect to find 33 below the 33rd percentile.

In a random sample of 10, 3 on average would be below that percentile.

 

I don't know how things have changed recently, but wasn't performing well on standardized exams the entire basis for the No Child Left Behind rules?  Pay was tied to exam scores.

 

 

I redshirted 3 of mine. One is gifted (and ADHD,which we suspected but didn't know at kindy), two are dyslexic. All are boys. I teach them at their levels, all over the map. Grade level doesn't affect that

I like them being the oldest in things like Sunday school, camp, and co-op classes. It works better for them.

 

Yes, social skills also come easier for kids who are a year older.

 

 

Note: I'm not saying that it's never a good idea to advance kids ahead of grade level, or go to college early. I went to college early.  I just think that you should do whatever is best for YOUR child.

[magnificent_baby]

This rule seems ridiculous to me. Do public schools get put on probation if they have students score in the bottom 1/3rd percentile on a standardized test?

 

I mean, for every child who scored at the 90th percentile there should be a student scoring at the 10th. For every student at the 70th we should expect to see a student at the 30th

 

In a random sample of 100 kids we would expect to find 33 below the 33rd percentile.

 

In a random sample of 10, 3 on average would be below that percentile.

 

Actually they do. Our district is on the failure list and is on probation. If no increase in testing scores, they could cut all funding, fire administration and take over. I am not sure what the parameters are. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Actually they do. Our district is on the failure list and is on probation. If no increase in testing scores, they could cut all funding, fire administration and take over. I am not sure what the parameters are. 

 

Really?  Never heard that. 

 

And are we talking an entire student body scoring that low, or one student?  Huge difference in my mind.  No school would be shut down for one student performing that low (otherwise every school would be shut down by now). 

 

But to be fair, scoring that low is also not grounds for a parent to not be allowed to homeschool in NY either.

[maize]

 

I don't know how things have changed recently, but wasn't performing well on standardized exams the entire basis for the No Child Left Behind rules? Pay was tied to exam scores.

 

 

In the states I am familiar with the testing standards were based on meeting established benchmarks, NOT on achieving a certain percentile. What would that even mean? You can't say, for example, that our goal is to have all students above the 50th percentile-- by definition the 50th percentile exists only because half of all students are below it. If the students all start scoring higher on a test them the 50th percentile moves up--but it's still 50th percentile.

[maize]

Actually they do. Our district is on the failure list and is on probation. If no increase in testing scores, they could cut all funding, fire administration and take over. I am not sure what the parameters are.

Is it on probation though because of the percentile scores of its students? I'm not aware of any states that use percentiles in their school evaluation system. Our state has benchmark standards and considers the percentage of students who "meet or exceed" standards.

 

All students could theoretically "meet standards" on a given test but not all can achieve a high percentile status.

Edited August 4, 2017 by maize

[snowbeltmom]

Really?  Never heard that. 

 

And are we talking an entire student body scoring that low, or one student?  Huge difference in my mind.  No school would be shut down for one student performing that low (otherwise every school would be shut down by now). 

 

But to be fair, scoring that low is also not grounds for a parent to not be allowed to homeschool in NY either.

The state can come in and take over a failing school in my neck of the woods.  However, the parameters for failing are way lower that scoring in the 33% on a standardized test.  Heck my district received an F on a portion of the yearly evaluation and still managed to be rated "Excellent".

[SparklyUnicorn]

In the states I am familiar with the testing standards were based on meeting established benchmarks, NOT on achieving a certain percentile. What would that even mean? You can't say, for example, that our goal is to have all students above the 50th percentile-- by definition the 50th percentile exists only because half of all students are below it. If the students all start scoring higher on a test them the 50th percentile moves up--but it's still 50th percentile.

 

Yeah it's as dumb as it sounds.  Basically the score sheet better say something above the 33rd percentile.  I am not even clear as to where they get the percentile information from.  Alternately you can show 25% growth (assuming you have a test score from the previous year which might not be the case because testing is not required for every single year).  And don't ask me what that looks like because I have no clue what exactly they mean by that. 

 

Basically if your student does not obtain that, you have to come up with a plan to address it.  And I assume if the district knows your child has disabilities ahead of time, they would realize why the student did not score that and probably nothing would happen.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The state can come in and take over a failing school in my neck of the woods.  However, the parameters for failing are way lower that scoring in the 33% on a standardized test.  Heck my district received an F on a portion of the yearly evaluation and still managed to be rated "Excellent".

 

Well...let's see.  17.7% of the students in my district were deemed proficient in 2016.  And that was supposedly some sort of improvement.  It has been this crappy for the past 10 years here.  No school was ever threatened to be shut down.  So gee how much worse could they do?  I don't think schools get shut down simply for low performance even if they claim that is what can be done. 

[luuknam]

Grade level of material is so arbitrary though.

 

Last year I had a very bright 8/9 year old with some learning difficulties doing 1st grade work in her academic subjects. Would you find it odd that I didn't call her a 1st grader? If she is starting out this coming year still working at that arbitrarily designated first grade level should I still call her a 1st grader? Then if she jumps several levels (as I think she is poised to do in both reading and math) should she suddenly become a 4th or 5th grader?

 

Well, I don't think it's odd that you didn't call her that, what with the way society works... but I do think it's odd that on the one hand grade level is all about academics, but on the other hand people insist that it's all about age as well. In other words, I get that for social reasons it would be awkward to call a 9yo a 1st grader. But what's the point of having grade levels if it's all about age in the end? Then you might as well ditch grade levels altogether and say "this is the 9yo class" rather than the xth grade class or w/e. 

 

And yes, I get that there is *some* arbitrariness of what's what grade level. But I also think it's possible to exaggerate the level of arbitrariness... if I say a kid is doing 3rd grade level math, then I'm pretty sure people are going to be aware that that's something along the lines of multiplying whole numbers, not multiplying decimals, and not just beginning to figure out addition under 20. And yes, maybe in another society or era or w/e 3rd grade level math might mean something else... but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have a certain meaning in this society currently.

 

Actually they do. Our district is on the failure list and is on probation. If no increase in testing scores, they could cut all funding, fire administration and take over. I am not sure what the parameters are. 

 

The question was if a school gets put on probation if one student scores <33rd percentile. And the answer to that is no. Yes, schools with terrible performance get put on probation, sometimes, but not over one student scoring in the bottom third. Nor should they, of course. 

 

But to be fair, scoring that low is also not grounds for a parent to not be allowed to homeschool in NY either.

 

 

Um, it's grounds to be put on probation, and then if the student doesn't make one full year of progress while on probation, it *is* grounds to not be allowed to homeschool in NY (unless you can prove extenuating factors, in which case they may or may not allow you to continue to homeschool). 

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

 

 

Um, it's grounds to be put on probation, and then if the student doesn't make one full year of progress while on probation, it *is* grounds to not be allowed to homeschool in NY (unless you can prove extenuating factors, in which case they may or may not allow you to continue to homeschool). 

 

Probation yes, but where does it say if the student doesn't make one full year of progress?  And what exactly does that look like?

[SparklyUnicorn]

I found this regarding probation.  It is so incredibly vague and wide open for interpretation.  Either way it really does not say anything about obtaining a specific score or percentage increase.  And even when it's not working out that is still not automatic grounds for not being allowed to homeschool.  They'll start showing up to your house first.  It's not that easy to lose your right to homeschool, in other words.  Not that anyone would want to invite that kind of fun into their life. 

Probation.

1. If a child's annual assessment fails to comply with the requirements of subdivision (h) of this section, the home instruction program shall be placed on probation for a period of up to two school years. The parent shall be required to submit a plan of remediation which addresses the deficiencies in the child's achievement, and seeks to remedy said deficiencies. The plan shall be reviewed by the school district. The school district may require the parents to make changes in the plan prior to acceptance.
2. If after the end of any semester of the probationary period, the child progresses to the level specified in the remediation plan, then the home instruction program shall be removed from probation. If the child does not attain at least 75 percent of the objectives specified in the remediation plan at the end of any given semester within the period of probation, or if after two years on probation 100 percent of the objectives of the remediation plan have not been satisfied, the superintendent of schools shall provide the parents with the notice specified in paragraph ©(5) of this section and the board of education shall review the determination of noncompliance in accordance with such paragraph, except that consent of the parents to such review shall not be required.
3. If, during the period of probation, the superintendent of schools has reasonable grounds to believe that the program of home instruction is in substantial noncompliance with these regulations, the superintendent may require one or more home visits. Such home visit(s) shall be made only after three days'written notice. The purpose of such visit(s) shall be to ascertain areas of noncompliance with these regulations and to determine methods of remediating any such deficiencies. The home visit(s) shall be conducted by the superintendent or by the superintendent's designee. The superintendent may include members of a home instruction peer review panel in the home visit team.