nevermind

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 5, 2017 by Katy

[Pink and Green Mom]

I have absolutely no advice to offer, only many hugs.  I really admire you and the other boardies who take on this labor of love.  You are much stronger than I ever could be.  :grouphug:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Is there another way to provide intense attention without the screaming or anger? I am no expert on this, but it sounds said they can't handle calm because they need to see you responding constantly on a big scale. Proving you see them, you're there, not ignoring. How to do that in a positive way...?

[Katy]

Haven't heard of Karyn Purvis, but I'll google her right now.  Thanks.

[Spryte]

I would look to the SW for guidance, of course, so please take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

 

First - breathe. You are already doing a great job.

 

Staying calm will be more effective in the long run, IME (though doing so is incredibly difficult and don't beat yourself up when you slip). If the bedroom is a safe place, then by all means use that as a place to let her rage while you are with her (or right outside the door, checking on her repeatedly). I have found - with the help of therapists - that sometimes a hug can help a raging child. It's not the usual type of hug, it's longer and different, and we had a therapist guiding us on how to do it safely. It didn't always work for me. Our pediatrician helped with this too, as well as the SW.

 

We did a lot of waiting it out. A lot.

 

These kids are processing a lot of hard stuff. Sometimes we just have to be their safe place to let it out. It's hard.

 

We once had a child rage in the car. That was probably our most frightening moment, and we drove straight to a children's hospital because it was close by, and we were far from home. It wasn't terribly helpful but we knew that doing so would ensure that we were all safe.

 

My heart is with you.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Have you thought of using a weighted sensory pressure vest?  Ask on the special needs board.  I've never used one as a parent - just as a teacher with kids already used to them- so I don't want to try to give tips or anything.  But the idea is that it is sort of like a thundershirt for a child and helps to calm them down. 

[Innisfree]

So many hugs.

 

My experience with this sort of behavior is in a child with ASD, not trauma, so take what seems helpful and don't worry about the rest.

 

When we had good behavior in public but not at home it was based on anxiety and uncertainty. The anxiety was not obvious, but it was there. At home, in a safe environment, the anxiety and rage and all those difficult emotions came out.

 

Our therapist advised shutting our dd in her room while she raged. It was not the right advice for her, though it may be calming for other children. Dd panicked when she was shut in her room. Another psychologist has recently told me he thinks all time-out rooms should have two chairs, one for the parent and one for the child, so the child is never left alone.

 

Dd started to be able to calm down more easily when we figured out we needed to just let her rage, near us, but without having us pay (obvious) attention to her. So, she could flop on the living room floor and thrash and scream, while we sat nearby pretending to read or watch tv. It helped if the tv program was one we knew would eventually distract her. Even if she was pushing me, I'd settle on the soft sofa in a safe spot and ignore her and let her push. Attention prolonged the rage.

 

Doing this and staying sane can be really hard.

 

This was what my dd with ASD needed. It was not so good for my other dd, who had her sister raging through the house. She still bears the scars from those years. Be very alert to how other children in the family are affected, and provide support and a safe space and time away from the chaos for them. This can be easier said than done.

 

The stress of dealing with these rages can be extreme. It's hard, but try to take care of yourself.

 

I would try to avoid yelling and anger, even if it seems to bring better behavior. It may be all they have known, but they will need to learn to communicate in other ways. And the better behavior achieved by yelling might be based on fear.

 

Is there any way you can get ABA through the foster care system? It's usually prescribed for kids on the spectrum, but can be very helpful in a wide range of situations. Asking for in-home therapy might be another possibility.

 

And yes, as Tibbie suggested, I would try to provide intense, positive interaction whenever they are being good. Try for one-on-one time every day with each, doing something that child loves. Praise them to the skies whenever there is something good you can say, and if possible have an immediate reward which they value.

 

Good luck, best wishes and thank you for helping those kids.

[chiguirre]

 

How do you moms of kids who rage all the time handle this?   At what point does a temper tantrum become a psychiatric emergency?

 

 

 

Innisfree has given you good advice from my point of view. Generally, it was best to just ignore the tantruming for us.

 

It becomes an emergency when they can hurt themselves (repeated head banging for example) or others. With a preschooler, you're probably safe unless you have other small kids who could be attacked.

[Ottakee]

I would push for an evaluation and therapy asap. Often a good full evaluation can take 3-6 months to get once the referral is made. If by chance they are doing very well by then it is easy to cancel.

 

Often these kids have lived with so much chaos in their lives that it is "normal" for them. If life isn't chaotic, they make it chaotic.

 

Stephanie Grant PhD has some stuff on her Facebook page that might be helpful.

 

A good book to read with the kids on this is As Real As It Gets which talks about these rages the kids have (little boy likens it to a monster). www.westolivepress.com or on Amazon

[kbutton]

I would push for an evaluation and therapy asap. Often a good full evaluation can take 3-6 months to get once the referral is made. If by chance they are doing very well by then it is easy to cancel.

If you have someone who can evaluate them with trauma/adoption issues in mind as well as straight mental health or learning issues, I second this idea. I do know people who have gone the evaluation route, spent a lot of money, and it was really more trauma/adoption, not learning. It's so hard to know. Or, if you can find a GOOD therapist, do it in layers as things seem more obvious over time.

 

I would be really stressed out having a social worker putting those sorts of hopes on you--that's a lot for you to live up to. Great if it works (it certainly can help!), but it could get worse before better, and it could be something like a both/and--they need good parenting, and they need good therapy/intervention. 

 

There are people on the LC board who may or may not frequent the chat board.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I had an extra kid for a couple months with a traumatic history. I still babysit him.

 

When he rages, I never separate from him. I've held him when needed. You have to be very, very, VERY careful when holding him and watch his face for fear.

 

Since he left here, I've gone through great lengths to child proof with him in mind. He's like a vindictive cat... he'll stare right at you as he knocks things over. Lol.

 

With this kiddo, I'm just matter of fact. If he didn't want to leave, I'd just gently pick him up, wait him out until I can (gently) force him in his car seat, and if it didn't end by the time we got back, I'd probably hold him inside for a while or take him for a stroller walk (it's a restraint he likes).

 

I can't see a 3yo needing to be considered for psych hospitalization. The 7yo is a possibility, but depends what the tantrums look like.

 

Are either on meds? Both of mine and my extra kid do NOT do well on a lot of meds. A nice mix for sleep, yes. But nothing else.

[Melissa in Australia]

I can only speak from my own personal experience. Our twins were like that. They felt "safe" if everyone around them was angry, because that was " normal". The first year was like this. When they first came to live with us one was screaming for more than 6 hours a day and the other was self harming.

 

They have been with us for over 2 years now and things are a lot better. Since their brother has left there has been a remarkable improvement.the house is now calm.we are not going to add any more children to our family.

 

As for the self feeling, all I can say is I was angry for a longtime, and completely disgusted with myself and my inability to keep calm.

 

i would suggest that they are using lower brain function only . And do not have the ability to self regulate their emotions they need external regulation.

 

Feel free to pm me.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Melissa in Australia

[LMV]

I'm trying to avoid quoting so bear with me if the response seems very disjointed.

 

*Please pursue professional evaluations. Too often I see foster families buy into the all they need is love and good parenting mantra. While I agree that all children need these things children with trauma need specific treatment and if there is superimposed or secondary mental illness that needs to be treated as well. If you want to advocate for these children then push for the evaluation and necessary services. If necessary present for a crisis evaluation to your local ED or mental health community center.

*The superficially charming mommy shopping behavior with raging at home is a red flag for RAD but there is a lot of overlap with other diagnoses like PTSD/CTSD, depression, TBI (sometimes meeting ASD diagnostic criteria), and ASD as well. I think the best option is to keep an open mind about all diagnoses. The evaluating child psychiatrist should not rush to a diagnosis either and often a second opinion is very appropriate and helpful.

*If PTSD is a consideration then I think treating that should be the top priority. TF-CBT with a certified and skilled clinician is an evidenced based approach that can be used (and studies have included) children as young as three. If you have specific questions about this feel free to message me.

*If you're getting angry then please look into what options there are for support for you. Are there additional parenting classes that could give you some new skills? Are the kids eligible for some respite? Is this just a bad fit placement and would it be best for the caseworker to seek a better fit?

*Gently, and I really believe that you're doing the best you can, I don't think any child needs our anger. Yes, I can imagine if you are angry/loud/scary enough they may capitulate in fear [unfortunately, that may just entrench the PTSD/CTSD and make things worse in the long run].

 

Good Luck!

[maize]

Do you have a pair of noise canceling head phones you can wear to at least give yourself some relief from the screaming? Our bodies react physiologically to the sound of a child screaming; that will absolutely wear down your ability to maintain any real sense of calm.

[Melissa in Australia]

I have found that the occupational therapist and the speech pathologist have been absolutely fantastic in helping the twins to develop self regulation.

[rutamattatt]

Absolutely agree with looking up Karyn Purvis.  She has a great understanding of the root of behaviors like you are experiencing and practical tools for dealing with the behaviors - although many of them are opposite of what typical responses for non-trauma kids would be.  You are right that children from trauma often feel more comfortable in chaos because that is what they know.  The unknown of calm, laid back adults can be really unnerving to children used to a more highly emotionally charged environment.

 

Our counselor reminds us when our DD is struggling to ask ourselves if she might be hungry, tired, thirsty, or overstimulated.  She also is adament that kids with trauma eat and drink every two hours without fail.  She encourages parents to even have that put in an IEP.  It sounds funny, but because their brains have been in survival mode so long, they do not recognize a typical child's message of "I'm starting to get hungry, I should get a snack."  We make sure DD gets water and a small, healthy snack every two hours.  I wonder if you would notice a small difference at 10:00 AM with a snack and a big old glass of water. 

 

It is REALLY hard to stay calm and practice the techniques from Purvis when you are frazzled and stressed out!  I know it is SO hard.  Do the best you can to keep calm and connect with the kids, but have LOTS of grace for yourself.  It is really, really important that you catch your breath as often as you can - even if it is a trip to the store by yourself or a movie or a nap.  We knew with our PTSD child that it would be hard...the part that is shocking is how unrelenting it can be and how we suddenly operated at this constantly emotionally depleted level.  Treat yourself well as best you can!!  It is definitely a marathon and not a sprint.  It takes awhile for their brains to become rewired.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[PeterPan]

I have found that the occupational therapist and the speech pathologist have been absolutely fantastic in helping the twins to develop self regulation.

 

I would be interested (and probably so would the op) if you wanted to explain some of the things they did. Like some of the others replying here, I'll say my ds has extreme behaviors with his autism that are probably on par with what you're experiencing, even if from a different route. And like the others, my encouragement would be NOT to give into the visceral reaction or the easy inclination to tempo up to their aggression. 

 

There *is* overlap between techniques for autism and techniques for trauma; we've used a counselor who specializes in both. Some of the things he has people do involve mindfulness, somatic experiencing, trauma release techniques, etc. There's a lot of overlap there, where they're using those techniques for a wide varieties of labels now (PTSD, ASD, ADHD, etc.). There are more materials now being released to bring these techniques within reach of children. I doubt they would particularly *contradict* the good advice you'd get from a professional, and it might be some things you could try now or some more tools to develop. 

 

When the quote above says the OT and SLP helped them work on self-regulation, that's what I'm talking about. Mindfulness, interoception, somatic experiencing, realizing how you feel, slowing down and really feeling your body and making connections. It decreases the anxiety and the fright/flight. As you get that to calm down, by doing the exercises pre-emptively, you lower that constant adrenal stress, that constant fright/flight, and they can slow down and be less reactive. And things can ramp it back up, but I think that's a goal you're working toward, or at least a goal we work toward, toward keeping calm, finding things that help us stay calm, realizing things that make us feel less calm.

 

In our house we have to be VERY HONEST about what makes us lose the calm place where we're trying to stay. And it's EVERY. DAY.  Every single stinking day. Someone mentioned in the car. Btdt. So if you have a chance to slow down and behavior log, like maybe in the morning, the afternoon, after dinner, just at a few times, to try to notice some patterns so you can see when this is happening. Don't write a whole long paragraph, just ABC (antecedent, behavior, consequence). Antecedent=what was going on before. Behavior=what they did, what happened. Consequence=what you did in response. You can also then long their behavior in response to the consequence and keep track of how long it lasts.

 

For us, there were some pretty obvious patterns, so a few days of logging behavior gave us data we could use to make changes. 

 

Yeah, I can't fathom if they're implying to foster parents that just more love will cure everything. That's kinda like the idiots who meet my ds and think they would love on him and it would go away, like autism is just a love deficit or we aren't good enough or don't try hard enough. 

 

It's really good to bring in help. I think you don't know how far they can go in your home till you've brought in professional help. I think if the org can supply you with professional help, it's worth trying, to see if the kids can, with instruction, calm down and function in your home. Their situation in your home with those supports will be INFINITELY more personal, kind, and loving than anything they receive in the next probable setting. Maybe I'm all wet on that, just saying I would try the professional level of intervention and see what they can make happen and then decide.

 

My other tip would be to remove valuables and give them a soft, safe space to have their meltdowns. If it's going to happen, it's good to have a safe place. 

[PeterPan]

The lady behind Sitting Still Like a Frog makes the whole thing available for free. Sitting Still Like a Frog - Shambhala Publications My ds wouldn't actively do it, but I could put it on while he was going to sleep as sort of a passive thing. Just that seemed to have effect. 

 

Pre-emptive is good. You don't have to wait until behaviors happen to do these things. You do them before to stimulate the EF (executive function) portion of the brain and bump their self-regulation.

 

There's also quite a bit of lit on trauma and somatic experiencing exercises for trauma, like Levine's book Healing Trauma. The older dc could do some of it with a therapist. Some of it, like his body tapping and body naming exercises, are actually really simple things that would be easy to do with a young child. To me, it really crosses over with the interoception stuff, and I like to try it with my ds. He's hard to work with, so to get him to just have some conversation or do weird stuff, not happening. But I've found it's stuff we can actually do together. So I'll have him close his eyes, I'll tap the body part three times, and he'll say the part ("That is my head") which is actually the first part of the affirmation. Then the 2nd part is saying how it feels. He needs assistance to do that, because he has poor interoception due to autism. To me though, it's a mindfulness exercise, and I'm saying it's a sneaky way to slow down and engage in mindfulness. And sometimes, as they slow down and start to listen to their bodies, they can release things. 

 

I know that's sorta out there. I'm just saying I'm sure they're connecting dots and using all kinds of strategies now, across disciplines, to help these kids. I'm not anti-meds for this either. You might even find there's a pattern, when  you behavior log, that you weren't expecting. I think there are kids who rage with food coloring, etc. 

 

Ok, I don't mean to bombard you here. The one weird thing I've found recently is that my ds really calms to an insanely calm voice, if I can get him calmed down at least enough that I can read to him. And what I read to him is the Bible believe it or not. I use an NIrV, which is written on like a 1st grade reading level, and I read it in the most calm, quiet way possible, a lot like that lady on Sitting Like a Frog. And I read for an insane amount of time. Like we might read 20-30 min! Tonight he was really, really agitated from our activities from the weekend, and he could not get his body to calm down. He's about 65 pounds, and I had to physically haul him into bed, remind him that he has not allowed to threaten me, etc. He really was not calm; he had just totally maxed out his ability to help himself get there. But once I got that Bible reading going, he totally zonked, totally.

 

I've read him the 10 Commandments through, like the same thing every day for a month. Now we're talking about love and reading I Corinthians 13 every day. It's really so personal, so on their level, to realize this is what love is, this is what it does, this is what it looks like, that's why I do those things, God wants you to have love, this is how we show love, are you doing any of that during the day, guys can be strong (love protects! love never gives up!) and be gentle (love is patient, love is kind). 

 

So I don't know, my ds doesn't seem to take much from Bible stories in Sunday School. He doesn't have the social thinking. But this straight Bible reading really connects to him, and it's peaceful and calm. I try to start the day with it AND end with it. It really helps ground him a bit, like ok I'm not renegade, there's a plan to the universe, God wins this, I want to be on God's side, let's do what God says, etc.

 

I guess that's not helpful if you don't use the Bible, oops. Anyways, it works for us. Other people have other ways. It's just been really good for us. And it helps *me* stay calm.

 

I will tell you, the effect of their stress on you is very real. If you're going to keep them, you want to make sure you're exercising or seeing a counselor and finding your own helps if things take a while to calm down. It's VERY real. If other people are around my ds when he's having behaviors, it's VERY dissettling to them. 

Edited July 3, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[Melissa in Australia]

I would be interested (and probably so would the op) if you wanted to explain some of the things they did. Like some of the others replying here, I'll say my ds has extreme behaviors with his autism that are probably on par with what you're experiencing, even if from a different route. And like the others, my encouragement would be NOT to give into the visceral reaction or the easy inclination to tempo up to their aggression.

 

There *is* overlap between techniques for autism and techniques for trauma; we've used a counselor who specializes in both. Some of the things he has people do involve mindfulness, somatic experiencing, trauma release techniques, etc. There's a lot of overlap there, where they're using those techniques for a wide varieties of labels now (PTSD, ASD, ADHD, etc.). There are more materials now being released to bring these techniques within reach of children. I doubt they would particularly *contradict* the good advice you'd get from a professional, and it might be some things you could try now or some more tools to develop.

 

When the quote above says the OT and SLP helped them work on self-regulation, that's what I'm talking about. Mindfulness, interoception, somatic experiencing, realizing how you feel, slowing down and really feeling your body and making connections. It decreases the anxiety and the fright/flight. As you get that to calm down, by doing the exercises pre-emptively, you lower that constant adrenal stress, that constant fright/flight, and they can slow down and be less reactive. And things can ramp it back up, but I think that's a goal you're working toward, or at least a goal we work toward, toward keeping calm, finding things that help us stay calm, realizing things that make us feel less calm.

 

Yeah, I can't fathom if they're implying to foster parents that just more love will cure everything. That's kinda like the idiots who meet my ds and think they would love on him .

You are right, All the therapists have told me that trauma treatment is very similar to autism treatment.

 

These are some of the ways that the occupational therapist has specifically helped

Shown me how to roll up child in a blanket and use both hands in a chopping motion on side, back other side then stomach then unravel child to "reset" their brain when they are completely unregulated. This only works with one twin, but if the other twin watches his brother getting rolled up he gets the same effect. This works for complete meltdowns, self harming and some screaming

 

She has been working on motor planning- this aids with problem solving. Something they completely lacked when they came to live with us. If they were riding on a tricycle and got a wheel caught on something they would have a meltdown because they could not even thing of how to fix the problem.samewith everything. Now they can problem solves some things, this is something we are still working on

 

She has helped with many other things as well

 

Speech pathologist

Social stories specifically made for twins, one on screaming and how it was making a dog sad had miraculous results. She acted it all out with puppets then gave twinthe book. That was the last day of him screaming for hours. Now he only screams for minutes per day.

 

Helpingtwins learn that they can talk about what they need help with instead of going straight to trauma response. Now we have got to a stagewherewecan say to twin who is deregulated.i cannot help you until you talk and tell me whatnot need help for.

 

Plus she has been helpful in guiding me with realising that the way the twins talk is not being demanding but rather their poor language skills, so instead of treating them like a normal child "not giving into their demands" we rephrase what they are saying for them and say it for them, they now repeat this .

 

Sorry I typed this on the tablet. I have edited it several times, but it keeps changing words and taking the gap out of words. Not helpful

Edited July 3, 2017 by Melissa in Australia

[Melissa in Australia]

We also have help from the paediatrician and a psychologist who is also a play therapist.

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 24, 2017 by Katy

[PeterPan]

You are right, All the therapists have told me that trauma treatment is very similar to autism treatment.

 

These are some of the ways that the occupational therapist has specifically helped

Shown me how to roll up child in a blanket and use both hands in a chopping motion on side, back other side then stomach then unravel child to "reset" their brain when they are completely unregulated. This only works with one twin, but if the other twin watches his brother getting rolled up he gets the same effect. This works for complete meltdowns, self harming and some screaming

 

She has been working on motor planning- this aids with problem solving. Something they completely lacked when they came to live with us. If they were riding on a tricycle and got a wheel caught on something they would have a meltdown because they could not even thing of how to fix the problem.samewith everything. Now they can problem solves some things, this is something we are still working on

 

She has helped with many other things as well

 

Speech pathologist

Social stories specifically made for twins, one on screaming and how it was making a dog sad had miraculous results. She acted it all out with puppets then gave twinthe book. That was the last day of him screaming for hours. Now he only screams for minutes per day.

 

Helpingtwins learn that they can talk about what they need help with instead of going straight to trauma response. Now we have got to a stagewherewecan say to twin who is deregulated.i cannot help you until you talk and tell me whatnot need help for.

 

Plus she has been helpful in guiding me with realising that the way the twins talk is not being demanding but rather their poor language skills, so instead of treating them like a normal child "not giving into their demands" we rephrase what they are saying for them and say it for them, they now repeat this .

 

Sorry I typed this on the tablet. I have edited it several times, but it keeps changing words and taking the gap out of words. Not helpful

 

For the op, I'll say that my ds, indeed, has similar deficits, sounds like, to Melissa's dc. And what you might be interested to know is that there is testing the SLP can run to demonstrate and quantify this! There's something called the Test of Problem Solving (TOPS) they can run. It took us quite a bit, but we finally got my ds diagnosed with a language delay (receptive/expressive) as well. His vocabulary is so high that we had no clue. Like Melissa says, people just thought he was DEMANDING and bad, bad, bad.

 

So yes, like Melissa, the behaviorist has us rephrasing and giving him the words and putting emotions to words when he's saying things in ways that are not prosocial. When a little child makes demands, people will sometimes put up with it, on the assumption that they're little. That grace really RUNS OUT as kids hit 7, 8, 9, and then the kids are just viewed as bad! So getting that language eval, finding if there are delays, finding if they have issues with narrative language, problem solving, etc. are HUGE.

 

There's a book from SocialThinking.com called We Can Make It Better! I got it and haven't done it with ds yet. It kind of sounds like the thought process Melissa's therapists were using with her dc. Again, I'm just throwing it out there so you can see there is SO MUCH that can be done. This is all new intervention stuff in like the last 10 years. So you're looking for people who are keeping up. We Can Make It Better goes through social stories where things go wrong and then they stop and think about what ELSE they could have done and they retell the story with the better choices! I'm psyched about doing it with my ds. Sometimes a little tool like that gives you something you can use across environments.

 

We also use Zones of Regulation and the 5 point thing (scale of 1-5, where 1 is no biggee and 5 is so serious even an adult needs to ask another adult for help). It gives us common language and a way to talk about things.

 

LOVE Melissa's hot dog roll and chopping! We've done both, but I hadn't thought to combine them. And what Zones of Regulation teaches us is to practice these skills PRE-EMPTIVELY. If we have a calming time for 10 minutes, 5 minutes, whatever, a few times during the day, every day, it gets them more comfortable practicing their tools and strategies so that when they are NOT calm the tools are at least familiar. It's a goal you can work toward. An OT can help you go through options and create age-appropriate lists of things they can do. Doing them pre-emptively, at little check points during the day, stimulates that EF portion of the brain and can give a 30% bump in self-regulation and executive function. 30% can be HUGE with these kids! 

 

Melissa, I'd be interested in a link for that sad dog book. My poor dog gets very sad, lol. And even though he's not a twin, you're right that social stories can be very good. And, like with your dc, we found that with these strategies our responses (amount of time to cool down) went from hours to minutes. It's something our workers log and that we watch so we have data to know our methods are working.

[PeterPan]

I hate to have to mention this (because I hate that it happens in our house), but you want to be careful how you're describing the police. Yes, we tell them the truth, but we want them to come out with a long-term, respectful view of the police, that the police are there to HELP us. Kids with autism are more likely to have run-ins with the police, because they have behaviors. If your dc is having behaviors in public that would warrant the police, you can request that they NOT interact with your dc but that they bring in someone who is TRAINED to handle the behaviors. I had to ask about it in our area, because my ds, before ABA, was having significant meltdowns in public.

 

 

I don't know that I would tell my ds that they would haul him off to jail, because it's not the truth. They might take him to a hospital, and a slightly older dc might get tazered. I have seen that happen with kids with autism, that the school calls in the police and the child attacks the officer and the officer tasers them. I mean, what a HORRIBLE outcome. I have lived in fear of this for my ds ever since I heard about it. I mean, what ineptitude on so many levels. I get what you're saying, that they could commit crimes and go into the system, true, but meltdowns aren't a crime.

 

So I don't need my ds to be anxious about the police, but I want him to RESPECT them, because that respect will keep him SAFE. He needs the truth. I tell my ds that if he were ever to hit a police officer or not respect them that they could tazer him, that he must respect them and obey. It's the truth.

 

And no, that is absolutely not in the realm of normal parenting if you have to physically restrain a 7 yo to get compliance. The SLP we used to use (actually two) physically restrained my ds for therapy sessions. It was really pragmatic and seemingly calming, but it didn't teach him self-regulation. If a dc is sensory-seeking, it can actually backfire, with them having MORE behaviors in order to seek out and elicit the restraint. Restraint is commonly used in the ps in ED classrooms and in some autism schools and autism classrooms. It's always a catch-22, and you really, really want to get professional counsel on that.

 

So me personally, having an extremely aggressive, extremely strong dc, I would have brought out every single positive motivator and redirecting tool I had. For a situation like that, you could drive two cars. If she's not comply, you LEAVE. It's a natural consequence, doesn't involve restraint, and she picks up the clue phone. She has to know the expected behavior ahead of time and the consequences. Some kids really, really struggle to see cause/effect. We used first/then charts with my ds, which is not quite the same but which shows how much he was really struggling to make that connect that I did this and then this happened. So the way you explain expected behaviors and what will happen has to fit where their language is, with what they really understand. I would assume they understand a bit less (like maybe know the words but don't really understand). 

 

If you know your behavior plan ahead of time, then you can stay very calm. When you have no plan, not stated to the dc and not stated to yourself, then you're left with losing your cool and doing things that involve physical restraint. You goal is to have a plan, have everyone on the team know the plan, and work the plan.

 

You can make your expectations clear enough that they're flexible to the situation. They don't have to be so tight that you get there and go wow I didn't make a rule for that! As in all parenting, you can't make rules for everything. You give a really generic concept/principle. You PRACTICE it head of time. You explain the reward for having the expected behavior and the consequence for not. So like with a 3 yo, I would drill compliance and reward with cookies. I drilled my ds that way when he was little. If I want to snap his behavior into shape, I do compliance drills. Don't go oh I would never do that. Google it and see. It's how grandma's get kids to obey! They give them teeny tiny, small steps of commands that are things the kid was already about to do or wanted to do. And the kid gets in his brain oh my gig is to obey. And every day you practice that for 15 minutes, doing compliance, building in his brain the reminder that oh my role is to obey.

 

I wouldn't take out a child who was not complying and not green zone. I would drive separately, do some more work to work on compliance (remember, we're talking 10-15 minutes here), arrive that little bit late but in peace. If the dc is having a hard time complying there I would pull them aside and do some compliance work in the guise of helping (oh, can you help me help auntie? first we need to put the buns here, now put the ketchup on,...) And then you could set a timer on your phone to remind yourself to check them in 40 minutes of play and give them a break where you go calm back down, do 5 minutes of compliance... Kwim? Very short leash.

 

When you're already to meltdowns, it means they went through some other stages (yellow zone) that had warning signs that you could have caught. There are articles on it. I think the link to one really good one is on a different computer. 

 

Your other tip of the day is keep it shorter. If they're having behaviors at events, show up late, leave early. Use the label and don't blink an eye. I'm planning another trip for my ds and father (both with disabilities), and it's like double trouble fun, lol. Now I know, ok, this many hours ok, more than that NOT. 

 

There *is* a school of thought about restraint, alpha dog, all that. I would really get professional counsel there. I keep strong enough that I *can* restrain him. Like I actively work out with weights, because I need to know I'm safe. But I don't. If my ds is provoking, I back off. Now he has enough understand that I tell him you're red zone, you're out of control, you're trying to provoke me so you can meet your sensory needs to help calm you down, we need to meet those sensory needs a different way, choose a better way to calm down. With that 7 yo definitely, you can be harnessing that meta-cognitive. With social stories, with intervention, they can learn (slowly) that they are making choices, that they don't have to be victims of their bodies.

 

The *reason* we had to be careful about restraint, besides the obvious that he was seeking it, was that it wasn't actually teaching him the social thinking he needed. In autism, there's no ability to generalize. So he didn't go oh the adult restrained me, I'm supposed to obey adults. Nope. He just concluded the social rule was I OBEY WHOEVER IS BIGGEST.  :svengo: That's really dangerous and hard to work with. It doesn't generalize to anyone else, and it means he was SCARY with everyone else!!! I don't know if kids in your situation do that. I'm just saying it's something to watch for, what did they learn from your intervention, what internal social rules are they learning and concluding. I needed my ds to learn that I obey the adult in charge of me. Even that is really dangerous (in autism) because then how does the dc know he can self-advocate if the adult in charge is corrupt and doing something harmful to them or asking them to do something wrong or unsafe? So it's not without controversy. But with my ds, that's what we were considering first, is he learning a principle that we can generalize to ALL situations so he can have expected behavior in ALL situations.

 

My ds is 8.5, will be 9 soon, and he's now asking *why* he has to obey. It's really interesting. These are discussions we were never able to have before, about right/wrong. To understand right/wrong, you have to care about the perspective of the person who made the rule. That's social thinking. He wasn't taking those perspectives, so sin, wrong, etc. meant nothing to him. That perspective taking is something you can work on with social thinking materials, with social stories, etc., but it's also something you can bring into your academics! 

 

I'm doing https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/155799028X/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 with him right now. It's just a charming little cut and paste gig. For him it's actually pretty hard, because you have to look at the non-verbal clues in the pictures and figure out WHY the words go with the pictures. So what we do is order the story and then *retell* it another way, changing the perspective, changing the time (past/future), etc. 

 

So as you work on social thinking, etc, in your therapies, you'll be able to carry the skills over to their academics too.

Edited July 3, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

 

I'll bet that's really confusing to the 3 yo when the 7 yo is upset. Do they go to school or do you homeschool them? My ds is so bonded to his sister that he becomes very upset if his sister is upset. So the more calm you can get the 7yo, with more interventions, the better the 3 yo will have the chance to be. They may have their own protective dynamic that is making it more complex. That's great that you saw the 3 yo calm when the 7 yo was doing better! It will be an every day thing, but winning one day is good! :)

Edited July 3, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 24, 2017 by Katy

[PeterPan]

Oh I'm not saying she has autism at all, but I definitely would not bank on pat statements like kids with autism not having imaginative play. My ds' play is QUITE imaginative. He's gifted, so it's going to be. Your dc too, sounds quite bright! She's thinking and trying to problem solve and notice patterns. If you want to see, you would go through the DSM5 criteria and decide for yourself. 

 

There are some kids for whom the autism diagnosis becomes more obvious over time, as their peers pull away. I've seen that happen. That sounds really wise to pursue the RAD. 

 

Yeah, that's pretty scary if someone told her that there were no consequences till you're 18. I can see where that would be very hard to undo. :(

Edited July 3, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 24, 2017 by Katy

[Melissa in Australia]

For the op, I'll say that my ds, indeed, has similar deficits, sounds like, to Melissa's dc. And what you might be interested to know is that there is testing the SLP can run to demonstrate and quantify this! There's something called the Test of Problem Solving (TOPS) they can run. It took us quite a bit, but we finally got my ds diagnosed with a language delay (receptive/expressive) as well. His vocabulary is so high that we had no clue. Like Melissa says, people just thought he was DEMANDING and bad, bad, bad.

 

So yes, like Melissa, the behaviorist has us rephrasing and giving him the words and putting emotions to words when he's saying things in ways that are not prosocial. When a little child makes demands, people will sometimes put up with it, on the assumption that they're little. That grace really RUNS OUT as kids hit 7, 8, 9, and then the kids are just viewed as bad! So getting that language eval, finding if there are delays, finding if they have issues with narrative language, problem solving, etc. are HUGE.

 

There's a book from SocialThinking.com called We Can Make It Better! I got it and haven't done it with ds yet. It kind of sounds like the thought process Melissa's therapists were using with her dc. Again, I'm just throwing it out there so you can see there is SO MUCH that can be done. This is all new intervention stuff in like the last 10 years. So you're looking for people who are keeping up. We Can Make It Better goes through social stories where things go wrong and then they stop and think about what ELSE they could have done and they retell the story with the better choices! I'm psyched about doing it with my ds. Sometimes a little tool like that gives you something you can use across environments.

 

We also use Zones of Regulation and the 5 point thing (scale of 1-5, where 1 is no biggee and 5 is so serious even an adult needs to ask another adult for help). It gives us common language and a way to talk about things.

 

LOVE Melissa's hot dog roll and chopping! We've done both, but I hadn't thought to combine them. And what Zones of Regulation teaches us is to practice these skills PRE-EMPTIVELY. If we have a calming time for 10 minutes, 5 minutes, whatever, a few times during the day, every day, it gets them more comfortable practicing their tools and strategies so that when they are NOT calm the tools are at least familiar. It's a goal you can work toward. An OT can help you go through options and create age-appropriate lists of things they can do. Doing them pre-emptively, at little check points during the day, stimulates that EF portion of the brain and can give a 30% bump in self-regulation and executive function. 30% can be HUGE with these kids! 

 

Melissa, I'd be interested in a link for that sad dog book. My poor dog gets very sad, lol. And even though he's not a twin, you're right that social stories can be very good. And, like with your dc, we found that with these strategies our responses (amount of time to cool down) went from hours to minutes. It's something our workers log and that we watch so we have data to know our methods are working.

 

 

 

I will do a house hunt for the sad dog book. it was handmade by the Speech Pathologist on loose leaf paper and stapled together. I haven't seen it in a long time. it night not exist any more.

 

I forgot the zones of regulation thing. It didn't work so well here as the twins went from green to red instantly, they had been living for so long on lower brain that it was their automatic default to the slightest stress. They responded to things as if it was a life and death situation.  The main thing all the therapists and we have been working on is BRAIN REWIRING. It is slow going but WORKING   :hurray:

Edited July 3, 2017 by Melissa in Australia

[Pen]

Hugs. Prayers.

 

Breathe!  Meditate! Take some time in nature!

 

(ETA-- don't know why this ended up with huge text below. I'm trying to edit to shrink it to normal.)

 

 

 

 

So as not to  quote, but to comment on some specific points, I'm going to put just a word or two or yours to indicate what I'm commenting on. If even that is too close to quoting please let me know and I'll delete that.

 

1. advice and prayers  (and also when need to transfer to therapeutic home, get evaluations, etc.)

 

Prayers for sure.  

 

Advice number 1 is ask your social worker for a good child/family therapist to work with and make sure you have some respite care available to get a break.  Especially someone with experience in attachment issues and whatever else you think is possibly going on. I used therapist help a lot. I never actually used respite, but knowing it was there if needed helped me to be able to get through some tough times.

 

 

 

Insist on the help you need to make this work now.

 

Evaluations, therapists, etc.      NOW.

 

Holding off until the kids fail in your home will help no one.  Tell the social worker that you are at the end of your rope and need this sort of help immediately. Okay. Maybe Wednesday since tomorrow is a holiday if you are in USA.

 

If you do not get therapist assistance now, and probably evaluations vey soon, the placement will almost certainly fail. IMO, from what you wrote

 

If they refuse to give you the help you need, insist that you wait it out, then it is time for therapeutic home ASAP.  IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

2. post special needs category?

 

could also be helpful...or learning challenges that gets more views.

 

There were some yahoo groups with regard to things like attachment disorder and oppositional defiance disorder that could also help.  And one on adoption interruption that I found really helpful.  I'm too long away from that to recall particular names, and it may have changed since I used these, but I suggest searching for such groups.

 

Also some books may help such as on attachment issues and I suggest The Explosive Child by Greene.  

 

 

3. better around strangers 

 

this may mean something positive. you may be being tested to see if you can really be there for them--no longer are being thought of as "strangers" yourself.  So this could be awful, but also it could be a really important attachment step for the dc. Maybe.

 

 

 

4. bedroom and closing the door

 

A very safe bedroom may well be a large part of your needed strategy.  Things in there that can be safely hit or thrown. Nothing sharp or otherwise likely to be able to be injurious to self or others. Also comfort objects like stuffed animals (that could also be safely hit or thrown).

 

Another option may be keeping the child right with you ---   tomato staking...

 

 

 

5. anger issues, needing your anger.

 

Possibly they equate anger with parenting and whatever they knew of love however messed up that was. Possibly responding the way you want to respond to them, holding if you are allowed to do that and can do it safely, and other strategies can be used. You may not get the behavior you want, at least not short term, but this may likely be better long term.  However, an in person therapist who can assess the situation and help come up with a strategy is probably key here.  In any case, responding as you think is right--with love not anger is probably key to your liking yourself.

 

to child: "I see you are [name the behavior]. I want you to know that I love you, even though I do not like [the behavior]." 

 

The second book in the Ender's Game series has Ender dealing with a family that includes formerly abused children and in one scene handling a roughly 4 year old that you might find interesting.

 

 

 

6. psychiatric emergency?

 

Your foster preparation materials should indicate when behavior is into the psychiatric emergency realm. Basically, if it appears that self or other is in serious danger. Possibly other situations also.

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Pen

[Pronghorn]

When my child raged, I had her sit on the screaming chair until she calmed down enough to sit still for two minutes. I would always stay in her line of vision, cleaning and trying to exude calmness. Every once in a while I'd say something encouraging about her good work she was doing on her feelings. Once she calmed down and left the chair, she would be much calmer and happier.

The hard part is getting your child to stay in the screaming spot. I sometimes held my child in place at first. I also kept the chair away from the wall to prevent wall damage and away from any throw

able objects. And in the screaming chair, my child could say anything she wanted, even hateful, nasty things.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Pronghorn

[Katy]

A screaming spot is a great idea.

[Pen]

Both kids fall apart at around 10AM?

[Katy]

Both kids fall apart at around 10AM?

 

They don't always both fall apart.  Generally one or the other has a meltdown at 10, and that will be the default worst behaved child that day. I have no idea if it's a biorhythm thing or if something traumatic happened at that time in the past, but it's pretty consistent, regardless of the amount of sleep, what sort of breakfast we eat, if we are watching a movie or are at a park, or are doing something quiet like a museum or library, or even if we are strapped into car seats.  At least one of them will have some sort of breakdown between 10-10:15 every day.  It's never been the same difficult child for three days in a row.  Sometimes it is both.

 

Yes, have tried protein snacks and morning naps, just in case either of those are the problem.  No difference whatsoever.

[PeterPan]

What are you doing at 9am? You could try pausing for 15 minutes and doing a calming break. How long have they been up at that point and how long since they ate? They could have low blood sugar and it would be crashing about then. You could do a calming break with some mindfulness, eat a snack... Something to see if you can head it off.

[Katy]

Neither one of them is interested in food until after 8, so it's less than two hours since they've eaten when it begins.

 

I could try to do something calming just before.

[Ottakee]

Neither one of them is interested in food until after 8, so it's less than two hours since they've eaten when it begins.

 

I could try to do something calming just before.

I would still try a 10am snack...a cheese stick, peanut butter on cracker, hard boiled egg.....something simple they will eat that will give them some protein.

[Junie]

Are they eating food with artificial dyes?  Some people (including some in my own family) react really badly to Red #40.  Screaming, throwing objects, biting.  It got pretty bad for a while.  In fact, I thought we were going to have to put one person in a mental health facility.

 

It's probably a long-shot, but I wanted to mention it just in case.

[Katy]

I can try the peanut butter thing... they both hate cheese unless it's on cheese pizza.

 

No artificial colors at our home.  I can't control what their parents bring to visits, unfortunately.

[Pen]

Neither one of them is interested in food until after 8, so it's less than two hours since they've eaten when it begins.

 

I could try to do something calming just before.

 

 

I can try the peanut butter thing... they both hate cheese unless it's on cheese pizza.

 

No artificial colors at our home.  I can't control what their parents bring to visits, unfortunately.

 

 

 

I would try no artificial anything at all.  Like a snack of organic Nuttzo spread on an organic piece of celery or some such, every hour to try to keep a steady blood sugar without possible jags from sugary snacks, or artificial whatevers.

 

Are you sure you cannot control what they get during parental visits? My recollection is that I had some say in that sort of thing, but this may be state by state or even Social Worker by social worker. 

 

Also, try to do something calming Before expected meltdown time.

 

Try an increase of time in calming nature and plant greenery. And a decrease of screens, electronics, movies--maybe none.  

 

And get a very, very, very, very consistent daily routine going.  Like at a Waldorf preschool or kindy--maybe even more so.   Every day at 8 is food time. 8:30 is clean up. 8:45 is vigorous movement to music. 9 is snack/calm time. 9:15 is garden time/walk around neighborhood.  9:45 is ball massage/meditation/freedom technique. 10AM is snack and lie down for quiet time while a story is told/read or olayed on audio if you need a lie down time too .  11 is snack and model with warm beeswax time.  11:30 is help foster mom prepare lunch.   12 is eat. 12:45 is clean up. 1 is snack if needed, and help mom with housework. 2 is snack followed by time in garden, planting, watering...   ...

 

Some times for stillness and some times for strenuous exercise, but very routine and basically calm all the time even during strenuous exercise.  Less stimulating activity. Unless it is that you have no where else you can be for some reason, they probably have no need for museum etc. trips... and though that may seem calm and quiet to you, it may be too much stimulation for them.

 

(when my ds was in waldorf school, they used actual whole nuts as a snack available every hour or sooner if need be, which made for less doing a clean up for teachers.  only an issue could be choking hazard of nuts)... or allergies)

 

Etc.  Possibly the 3 yo needs more lie down and rest times than the 7yo does.  So a few activities might be different for 7yo while 3yo get the extra rest time.

 

 

How often are there things that you must do with them (required appointments etc.) that make a consistent routine impossible?  Is your home and yard such that you could stay home most of the time? Or must you go to museums, parks, etc. because home is a small apartment or something like that?  If you do have to go somewhere could it be consistently the same park every day from a certain time to a certain time?

Edited July 4, 2017 by Pen

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 24, 2017 by Katy

[Pen]

 

 

 

Please look at quote to see what I am replying to. I'll remove the quoted part soon.

 

1 I suggest pushing for them to get started with the judge immediately.  Is there any summer head start that they are eligible for or that sort of thing?

 

1.5 How did you handle the punching episode.  That being normal for your home to me means you need the judge to move on therapy etc.

 

2

Possibly more than one thing going on. Could be artificial colors and flavors etc. are a problem. Could also be that there is need for time in green/nature. And also a need for exercise.

 

 I keep mentioning gardening because my experience was it was the most soothing of activities for dc. It was organic and involved vegetables so also meant that there was often a healthy this or that leaf or fresh peas that could be a snack.

 

Possibly some nutritional yeast (if there aren't allergies to it) with foods or on popcorn snack etc., could help for providing some vitamins but in a food type way that would not be an issue.

 

Then there is sort of good, happy, contented worn out versus too much

 

 

3

 

The "i'm safe here" type self talk sounds wonderful!  Maybe you can help build on that for both of them, by saying such things as You are safe, or self modeling positive self talk

 

 

4

 

knives etc: That is disturbing. Though your dh may be right. I hope.

 

 How does she  hear people screaming?

 

A friend of mine who had a number of foster dc told me to  be careful of things like even a bible story with violence because it would get some foster children of hers too interested in the violence. No cartoons. no superhero movies...

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by Pen

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 24, 2017 by Katy

[Pen]

All of that last sounds less worrying.  Except for the hurting siblings and dogs for fun. Which is generally a red flag.