Child doesn't like correction in math WWYD?

[MotherGoose]

This is particularly in reference to math. She's 5th grade but it's always been a problem although it's getting worse as the "tween" dramas start. I do not think it's the math program--we have tried nearly every one out there and are currently using Saxon 6/5 and don't plan to change (so a new curricula is not the solution to this problem, please :) she actually says she likes this program. She tests into the 90 plus percentile in math and language on standardized tests. There are no learning problems. She says she just doesn't like anyone telling her she is wrong. Even when done very nicely, and especially if they (mom) make her correct her errors. Most of her errors in math are due to simple computation errors, not a lack of understanding. Math bores her. She is definitely not a BA kid (we tried that). She's a language kid. I'm the same way. I get it. But somehow In public school math I learned to check my answers to get a good grade. So, what would you do? I've looked into online for next year Saxon math (Veritas) where she will answer to someone else. Ultimately she will have to strive to get the correct answer and perhaps a failing grade in sixth grade will be a good motivator. In coop (doesn't offer math) she is motivated by getting a good grade, so perhaps another teacher will help. But, $600 is a lot for 6th grade math although we can afford it. I'm also bidding on a dive cd for the rest of this year to see if it helps. (eBay). I've also tried giving her fewer problems and sitting with her, which helps some. However I know she's supposed to do them all. I CANNOT sit with her through thirty problems. I have a second grader and a toddler. Part of this is her entire attitude about many things. I try to gently correct her, she rebels, and then I'm not perfect mommy in my response either. But sometimes she is just plain wrong and doesn't want to admit it. As if I would tell her she's wrong about The answer for fun?! This is a long rambling post, but if you have any advice, I would appreciate it.

[Paige]

Could she check it herself? I think there's value in learning to check your work and redo the problem until you get it correct. If she can't get it correct after trying a few times, then she needs to ask for help, but ideally that wouldn't be often. Nobody else has to tell her she's wrong.

[MotherGoose]

Could she check it herself? I think there's value in learning to check your work and redo the problem until you get it correct. If she can't get it correct after trying a few times, then she needs to ask for help, but ideally that wouldn't be often. Nobody else has to tell her she's wrong.

Yes I did ask her about that and she said she'd be glad to so she could write down the correct answer. 😟

[Jess4879]

How do you currently do corrections?  For my perfectionist kiddo, she melts down with immediate correction (like seriously, the TT program made her cry.  She hated being told something was wrong and to try again).  She does better if she's taught a lesson and then she goes off and works the problems on paper.  I correct in the evening and the next morning she goes back and does corrections and then moves on to a new lesson.  If she's struggled with a particular concept, I will leave a note for her to watch the lecture again and to ask me for help if she needs to. 

[JudoMom]

It sounds like it's a systemic problem, and not one just related to math.  Not being able to admit you are wrong or take correction is a pride issue, so we would be discussing it as such.  No one likes to be wrong, but no one is right all the time either, and part of growing up is learning how to handle correction and failures.

[MotherGoose]

It sounds like it's a systemic problem, and not one just related to math. Not being able to admit you are wrong or take correction is a pride issue, so we would be discussing it as such. No one likes to be wrong, but no one is right all the time either, and part of growing up is learning how to handle correction and failures.

I can see that. Any suggestions for how to do this? She will admit she's wrong in other situations,especially if I'm not around. I'm Christian.

Edited February 6, 2017 by MotherGoose

[MotherGoose]

How do you currently do corrections? For my perfectionist kiddo, she melts down with immediate correction (like seriously, the TT program made her cry. She hated being told something was wrong and to try again). She does better if she's taught a lesson and then she goes off and works the problems on paper. I correct in the evening and the next morning she goes back and does corrections and then moves on to a new lesson. If she's struggled with a particular concept, I will leave a note for her to watch the lecture again and to ask me for help if she needs to.

It varies, but she actually seems to respond best to immediate corrections.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I kinda downplay errors with my sensitive kid.  I don't put an X on it.  I just say oh I bet you had this...try it again.  Something like that.  And then I remind him that if he was getting 100% on it we wouldn't be doing it.  Why would we keep working on stuff he mastered?  Ya know?

 

But yeah that's all I have to suggest.  I don't know why he is so sensitive about it, but he is. 

 

 

[JudoMom]

I can see that. Any suggestions for how to do this? She will admit she's wrong in other situations,especially if I'm not around. I'm Christian.

 

There's really no quick and easy fix.  We talk about pride as sin.  I would ask her why she thinks she struggles so much taking correction from you, let her know you've noticed she can take it from others.  In general, we just talk about it.  I had one that would tear up at any correction, and as he's gotten older it's improved.  I think age + awareness helps.

[Petrichor]

You could have her check her work by reworking the problem in reverse (if it's that type of math)

 

Or let her see the answer key once she finishes the assignment, with a colored pen in hand.

 

Or, you check her work, and don't tell her what she got correct or incorrect. Just give her additional instruction/practice on those types of questions. 

 

[Petrichor]

I can see that. Any suggestions for how to do this? She will admit she's wrong in other situations,especially if I'm not around. I'm Christian.

 

She will? (wondering if it was a typo)

 

If she will, then maybe the following will provide insight.

 

Personally, I don't like not knowing something. If I get something wrong, I try to fix my mistake right away so it will be like I was never wrong. It's not always obvious, but the split second I think I've got it, I will say "Ok" or "I know" Once I realized that I do that (and that it's a character flaw), it's still hard for me to stop. It's embarrassing for me if someone I see every day sees me make mistake after mistake after mistake (as almost anyone would typically commit in a math class) it makes me feel like they think I am dumb and thus, not worth caring about. <--- just what tends to go on in my brain, I know it's not realistic. But it's a struggle for me to fight against those kinds of thoughts. 

 

And at the same time, if I make a big judgement error, or I bump into someone, or I forget something, or I'm late for something, I don't have trouble(and don't think I ever have) with taking responsibility for those types of errors.

 

So perhaps, helping her to realize that mistakes/errors are ok, and normal to make, especially in a class, when she is there to LEARN would help?

[MotherGoose]

She will? (wondering if it was a typo)

 

If she will, then maybe the following will provide insight.

 

Personally, I don't like not knowing something. If I get something wrong, I try to fix my mistake right away so it will be like I was never wrong. It's not always obvious, but the split second I think I've got it, I will say "Ok" or "I know" Once I realized that I do that (and that it's a character flaw), it's still hard for me to stop. It's embarrassing for me if someone I see every day sees me make mistake after mistake after mistake (as almost anyone would typically commit in a math class) it makes me feel like they think I am dumb and thus, not worth caring about. <--- just what tends to go on in my brain, I know it's not realistic. But it's a struggle for me to fight against those kinds of thoughts.

 

And at the same time, if I make a big judgement error, or I bump into someone, or I forget something, or I'm late for something, I don't have trouble(and don't think I ever have) with taking responsibility for those types of errors.

 

So perhaps, helping her to realize that mistakes/errors are ok, and normal to make, especially in a class, when she is there to LEARN would help?

Yes she will. When she gets something wrong in a coop class it's more sorrow that she got it wrong and effort to fix. With mama it's more anger at mama. I'm not innocent in this drama, for sure. Homeschooling is so tied up in my identity as a person that I take things more seriously than I should. I'm working on that. But it's definitely not only me. Second dd takes corrections with grace and fixes problems.

[Ellie]

This is particularly in reference to math. She's 5th grade but it's always been a problem although it's getting worse as the "tween" dramas start. I do not think it's the math program--we have tried nearly every one out there and are currently using Saxon 6/5 and don't plan to change (so a new curricula is not the solution to this problem, please :) she actually says she likes this program. She tests into the 90 plus percentile in math and language on standardized tests. There are no learning problems. She says she just doesn't like anyone telling her she is wrong. Even when done very nicely, and especially if they (mom) make her correct her errors. Most of her errors in math are due to simple computation errors, not a lack of understanding. Math bores her. She is definitely not a BA kid (we tried that). She's a language kid. I'm the same way. I get it. But somehow In public school math I learned to check my answers to get a good grade. So, what would you do? I've looked into online for next year Saxon math (Veritas) where she will answer to someone else. Ultimately she will have to strive to get the correct answer and perhaps a failing grade in sixth grade will be a good motivator. In coop (doesn't offer math) she is motivated by getting a good grade, so perhaps another teacher will help. But, $600 is a lot for 6th grade math although we can afford it. I'm also bidding on a dive cd for the rest of this year to see if it helps. (eBay). I've also tried giving her fewer problems and sitting with her, which helps some. However I know she's supposed to do them all. I CANNOT sit with her through thirty problems. I have a second grader and a toddler. Part of this is her entire attitude about many things. I try to gently correct her, she rebels, and then I'm not perfect mommy in my response either. But sometimes she is just plain wrong and doesn't want to admit it. As if I would tell her she's wrong about The answer for fun?! This is a long rambling post, but if you have any advice, I would appreciate it.

 

Is she a first-born? Because we first-borns hate to be corrected. :tongue_smilie:

 

This is an attitude problem (and it isn't because of any tween drama. It's just been building up.). She must learn to be corrected *by you.* How do you discipline her when she disobeys/has bad attitude about other things? You might need to do that when she pulls that stuff over being corrected in math.

[MotherGoose]

Is she a first-born? Because we first-borns hate to be corrected. :tongue_smilie:

 

This is an attitude problem (and it isn't because of any tween drama. It's just been building up.). She must learn to be corrected *by you.* How do you discipline her when she disobeys/has bad attitude about other things? You might need to do that when she pulls that stuff over being corrected in math.

She is! (And so am I!). And she has a compliant younger sister plus a toddler brother so she's queen of the castle. She's generally quite well behaved but perhaps I've been too generous in regards to school. Usually if I threaten taking away privileges for school behaviors she straightens up. Maybe I need to introduce that as a proactive rather than reactive strategy. After all, it does work in brick and mortar settings doesn't it?!

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited February 10, 2017 by --Kathy--

[...................]

Signed my dd up for Derek Owens. He does all the teaching and all the grading and there's zero need for her to argue with me about how I'm explaining A new concept or an old one for the matter.

 

We haven't had a single issue since!!!

 

If at some point Derek Owens doesn't work I will sign her up for a local math center. If we can't add that to her. Usher I will drop anything else or maybe try teaching textbooks....I will never try to help her with math again because she cannot understand me, I cannot understand her and she is extremely impatient. Never. Again.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Calming Tea

[fourisenough]

I think an online math class sounds like a terrific idea! Even though this sounds like (and is) a problem now, she is doing a very natural thing by trying to separate from you and assert her independence (even when she's wrong!). It's totally okay and will work out for the best. I had a first born girl who I could have written almost exactly the same post about at a similar age. She's now a fully-functioning, very self-motivated, high-achieving college freshman. We're very close and she now readily admits when she's wrong, needs help, or is in over her head. I say, let math be "her thing" with someone else.

[fairfarmhand]

Let her do her work on the marker board. Mistakes are instantly wiped away. And let her call out the answers to you. My perfectionist hated to think "ahhh. Maths done!" Only to be told to go back and correct stuff.

 

Or let her do corrections the next day

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Guest]

One thing I do sometimes is instead of having DS fix something he got wrong, I have him work a whole new problem that is doing the same thing on the whiteboard, and then I ask if he can see where he made the mistake the first time. If he can, great. If he can't, that's fine also, but the next day at math time, he'll start with yet another of the same kind of problem, until he gets the original mistake.

[Annie Elle]

My very driven dd14 used to be a lot like this. She had a hard time being corrected in math and other subjects too. She also had a hard time losing in games when we had family game night. It was especially difficult in the ages between 8-11. The constant tears about little things were aggravating to deal with. She had to be taught that a bad attitude was her own responsibility and success and happiness in life was in her own hands in the way she handled situations.

 

This is the way we dealt with it; she understood that when the tears/ anger occurred she would be sent to her room, not as a punishment but to cool down and get herself together. We told her she could cry it out if she needed to or journal or whatever. She could only return when she got herself under control. I also had to make sure I kept my emotions under control. In times of non-conflict we would talk about it. I wanted her to understand that I was not against her but trying very hard to help her succeed and that I wanted to hear her side. I wanted her to know that I was interested and cared about how she felt. We also talked about how feelings are sometimes motivated by selfishness and things not going our way. We also considered putting her in school because we realized that my relationship with her as a mother was being negatively affected by also being her teacher. Putting her in several online classes has helped quite a bit.

 

She is my strong willed child and this has taken years to help her overcome. If I deal with her the wrong way, she will dig her heels in and it will be a battle I won't win. But thankfully, she is very driven to succeed and once she realized that mature, successful people don't crumple into tears or lash out in anger when being corrected, she changed very quickly.

[beka87]

How do you mark her papers as far as pointing out errors?  My little perfectionist prefers pencil, so she can correct and then erase all evidence of ever having done it wrong.  When she's at 100%, she gets to star each problem herself in whatever color she chooses.  I'm sure doing something like this won't solve your problem, and you've gotten a lot of good advice, but little things do add up at the end of the day.  I hope you find something that works for you both soon.  Good luck!

[freelylearned]

My son doesn't like to be corrected either, so we've worked out a system where he corrects his own work.

 

When I have my son correct his own work, he trades me his pencil for a red erasable pencil and the answer key and sits at the dining room table with just what he needs to correct his work. If he misses a problem, he has to erase the whole problem and rework it all in red pencil. He cannot erase part of the problem. He has to work it all out correctly from the start. There is a consequence if he "cheats" but I haven't had to dole it out. He appreciates that I worked out a system where he can figure out what he did wrong on his own.

[EndOfOrdinary]

Why not ask her what she thinks would be appropriate? As the parent, you can flat out tell her there needs to be a solution. Even explain that as she grows up there are going to be plenty of times she is going to screw up in front of you. The stakes only get higher as she ages. If she cannot come up with a solution, then propose two or three: loss of privleges/stricter homeschool environment, online math class, her personally correcting and reworking problems, etc. Let her know you will try her way for a chosen amount of time. If things are not improving, then you get to pick a solution you see is fit.

 

You are now removed from the issue. No more Mom Police being mean. She gets her chance to solve it all by her big girl, completely perfect, self. More than likely this approach will not work %100 of the time, but in giving her some level of autonomy you are at least acknowledging her feelings. Even if you feel they are silly or misguided, they are still her feelings that she thinks are reasonable. This way you can honestly say you are trying to work with her and not create a power struggle.

[Moonhawk]

When learning a new thing, I let my DD work at something on her own white board, then when she's done, I'll do the same problem on the big white board. I don't look at her answer [or at least don't let her see me looking at it], or her work, or ask what she got.  Just do the problem again on my own, step by step. If it's quiet afterwards, I know she got it wrong, lol, because otherwise she'd go "Yeah!" So I assign another problem and do the same thing. 

 

If the problem persists, I have her "help" me at the board after I model a few times. I'm honest if she asks me to check her work, but in more of a "hmm, let's look at this step again".  Sometimes she unravels at that, but she is learning to be more resilient. I don't have a problem correcting her usually, but she is a bit insecure in math just because she sees her brother do it naturally.  She doesn't see that she is just about the same level of intake/understanding, and maybe could be the same as him, if she was as interested in it as he was. So, I try to impersonalize this subject as much as possible. 

 

My DD is younger, but maybe this can help. 

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm a bit of a perfectionist myself, and so I tend to try to be sympathetic--"I always hate getting things wrong, too.  Finally I started to check my work before I turned it in, and usually I could catch things myself that way."  Staying calm is crucial.  

 

If she gets mad at you, and you kind of raise your eyebrows at her and make a funny face, does that help her catch herself?  Or does it just inflame things further?

 

If you said, "Hey, I think you're really mad at your own self, so why yell at me?  Go yell in a mirror!" would you be able to make that sound funny and non inflammatory?  

 

So much of this is injecting calm into the situation, and it's very individual.

 

DIVE CD's were great in our family because DD hated math, and they took the instruction part of the lesson out of our relationship 'bank'.  So then we went into correcting wrong work more positively.  Also, sometimes I'd offer choices--do you want to walk me through how to do this correctly, or do you want to try it by yourself?  That way correcting it wasn't optional, but the approach was hers to own.

 

I wouldn't way that we entirely solved this, but those techniques took us down from Defcon 7 to maybe 3, which was quite an improvement.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by Carol in Cal.

[Kerileanne99]

I have a perfectionist as well. It is an ongoing issue, so I empathize:)

 

One thing that has really helped? I read the book Mindset by Dr. Carol Dweck, and then did the Brainology modules with my dd. It taught (both of us!) to look at mistakes differently. I learned to start celebrating mistakes in a way, using language like oh, that was an awesome mistake! I can see your thought process, and how you arrived at this answer.

I will say we had to do this away from math at the beginning as it was much easier to start with things that weren't so high-stakes for her. Math is a huge deal to her:)

It has taken a few months, but she went from screaming meltdowns to bringing me a mistake she can't figure out as a challenge😳

Best homeschool supplement yet, as it has helped in every single area of school:)

[mamamoose]

Yes I did ask her about that and she said she'd be glad to so she could write down the correct answer. 😟

I also have a 5th grader and she is a lot the same. Correcting her work is not an option, but I let her correct her own while I sit with her. It's a struggle for sure. I'm also considering outsourcing some math.

[MotherGoose]

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful replies! We have tried the dive cd for one day, and have had her check her own work for a couple of days. She is being honest, and I'm making sure she redoes problems. I'm overhearing her talk to herself, and she says things like, "Now why did I do that?!" Which I find encouraging. She's not been fussing at me. She really does pretty well with my instruction on new topics, but it's the constant careless errors that make me very frustrated. So we shall see. I definitely have trouble remaining calm about it, especially when I nicely point out something and she has a fit. I know you aren't supposed to compare Kids, but it does help me realize it's not all my fault...homeschool mama wondering if I created this problem and could have prevented it...I Can point out errrors to younger sister and she fixes them without gettting mad at me. I'm certain I contributed to the problem, and don't always handle things well, don't get me wrong.

Edited February 11, 2017 by MotherGoose

[Farrar]

Yes I did ask her about that and she said she'd be glad to so she could write down the correct answer. 😟

 

Sounds like things are going better, which is great. But I did want to say... really, there's nothing wrong with this. I mean, if she can show you she did it, then you hand over the answer key but don't interfere, and she corrects it herself by fixing them all so that it's all correct... I think that's okay. She's still getting the feedback of seeing what she got wrong, which is the most important part. And, honestly, you're going to be able to see if the paper ended up covered with erasings or not. And if it was, just assign her more practice or do another lesson on it. And if it wasn't, let her feel better about the perfected paper and move on.

[MerryAtHope]

Do you have her correct errors in front of you or walk her through and show her the errors--or do you simply hand it back with some problems marked that need to be fixed, and let her do it on her own? There may be something in the dynamic of how you handle corrections that could be changed to make things work better.

[MotherGoose]

Do you have her correct errors in front of you or walk her through and show her the errors--or do you simply hand it back with some problems marked that need to be fixed, and let her do it on her own? There may be something in the dynamic of how you handle corrections that could be changed to make things work better.

I've done all. There are definitely problems in the dynamic though. Part of it is me, for sure. There is this waterfall of thoughts going through my head....oh my goodness I'm homeschooling this child and here she is forgetting to regroup, or forgetting that 2 plus 2 is 4 not 5 or writing down the problem incorrectly in the first place. And so it must all be MY FAULT for wanting to homeschool her in the first place, because if she was in brick and mortar school surely she would remember that 2 plus 2 is 4. (Sght exaggeration here, but not much.). I have marked problems wrong and asked her to correct them, but then she says they are correct and what's the problem. Having her correct them herself is helping so far, but we are only a few days into it.

[EKS]

We found here that it works better psychologically for my son to tell me his answer from across the room and I say yes or no.  If he has made a mistake, he has to go back right then and fix it.  The problem with doing the entire problem set first is that the kid thinks they are done and then the parent comes in and tells them they have to redo a bunch of them, which feels really bad.  If you do it problem by problem, they don't get the "Ahh, I'm done" feeling until the parent says the problem is correct.  I know you said you can't sit with her, but I can do this while doing other things as long as I am in the same room (actually, we've also used Skype if I need to be in another room).

 

 

Edited February 12, 2017 by EKS

[lexi]

I have a child like this.

 

For errors on assignments I use colored markers and circle the things that are wrong. She chooses the color and strangely that helps.

 

But we also do address it as a problem. Perfectionism is not healthy. (Ask me how I know! I'm kind of reformed. I still struggle). We have many many discussions about how everyone makes mistakes. Everyone gets things wrongs. No one is perfect. We talk about pride and humility. Over and over and over again. I can say that things are gradually getting better. But it's exhausting! I'm so worn out from it. Oh my goodness!

So you have sympathy and hugs from me. I'm right there with you.

[katilac]

  it's the constant careless errors that make me very frustrated.  

 

Get used to it. From my personal experience, and from reading these boards for umpteen years, careless math mistakes in middle school are a near-universal problem. Student makes careless math errors and has to correct them. Lather, rinse, and repeat for the next three years.

[fralala]

You've received great suggestions, but I just wanted to plug one thing that my (first-born, over-sensitive about math mistakes) daughter seems to have enjoyed and profited from using: the How to Learn Math course from Stanford. I am a huge fan of Jo Boaler, and one of the great take-aways from the brain studies it discusses is that we actually learn more when we make mistakes in math even when we're not corrected. (Obviously this wouldn't go for missing/not understanding an entire concept, or phoning it in, but if you need to change somebody's attitudes toward making mistakes in math-- or life!!-- I think this kind of growth-mindset course is incredibly helpful. I'm still working on it myself. :laugh: )

[HS Mom in NC]

I have one of those.  I refuse to alter reality for her-that would be cruel.  In real life when you get a problem wrong, it's marked as wrong and then you go back and correct it.  That's how life is.  My child's feelings do not reign supreme over all things at all times. Reality doesn't conform to our preferences.  Either the math problem is answered correctly or incorrectly.  It is what it is.  That's the thing about math-it doesn't care how you feel about it.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[BlsdMama]

I have one of those. I refuse to alter reality for her-that would be cruel. In real life when you get a problem wrong, it's marked as wrong and then you go back and correct it. That's how life is. My child's feelings do not reign supreme over all things at all times. Reality doesn't conform to our preferences. Either the math problem is answered correctly or incorrectly. It is what it is. That's the thing about math-it doesn't care how you feel about it.

Yes, this exactly.

 

I have a couple kiddos with learning issues and if it is that then that is a whole different ball of wax. However, since it's not that, I think a reality check is in order. I have a daughter who is exceptionally gifted and this same conversation has taken place in the last two weeks.

 

I am the teacher. It is my DUTY to correct you if you are wrong. This is wrong.

 

We do math like this: read the lesson, do the lesson. If there is anything you don't know, look back at the previous lesson (Saxon notes which lesson for each problem) and see if you can figure it out. If not then leave it to work with me. If you know it, do it.

 

All wrong problems must be redone. No other option. If you get it wrong a second time then I must go through it with you.

 

That has built in consequences.... careless errors must be redone thus wasting time. Not wanting help is even better because then they will waste even more time doing it twice. It WILL sink in. And that conversation may need to be had several times, "This is my JOB. Your job is to be teachable." They can be grumpy with their butt in the seat. In the long haul this will become the norm. Be consistent and stick with your curriculum. As a side note I switched several of my kids back to Saxon this year. After the past 5-6 months, I feel really good about the decision. ;)