Hijab or christian covering

[moonsong]

Something I've noticed is when a christian woman wears a headcovering she is legalistic and opressed. When a Muslim woman wear's a hijab its just part of her religion. What's the difference?

[SparklyUnicorn]

 I think people assume similar things about Muslim women. 

[Charlie]

Something I've noticed is when a christian woman wears a headcovering she is legalistic and opressed. When a Muslim woman wear's a hijab its just part of her religion. What's the difference?

 

The point of view of the person making the statement.

 

edited to add - and context, I think.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Charlie

[Tanaqui]

I've never seen anybody saying that.

Actually, the only people I've seen using the word "legalistic" are Christians generally claiming that their approach is not as "legalistic" as somebody else's approach (and that's why their denomination is better) and those Christians don't generally seem to have a high view of Muslims either.

[Janeway]

Sadly, I assume oppressed about anyone who feels their religion or culture requires one gender to cover up more than the other.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Sadly, I assume oppressed about anyone who feels their religion or culture requires one gender to cover up more than the other.

 

I assume this as well, but I'm not sad.  I don't like what it represents.  This does not mean I dislike anyone in particular over these rules or think people shouldn't be free to do it.  I just don't like, again, what it represents in my mind.  And I don't care what religion is behind it.

[Janeway]

When I think of the term legalistic, I think of stuff like must have services on Saturday, not Sunday, or must not have instruments in service. But that they believe their way is the only way.

[eternalsummer]

I think both things are religious expressions of what is a pretty natural tendency in humans (that is, different dress codes for men and women and some degree of symbolism for women that says "sexually off-limits to everyone except spouse").  For me, the hijab is not much different than headcoverings worn by women in various societies now and historically; however, the full-tent thing they wear in Saudi Arabia seems a bit extreme, in the way that string bikinis seem extreme on the other end here in the West.

[Guest]

Never heard that here, But I don't believe many feel Amish or Mennonite are oppressive to women.

[Mimm]

 I think people assume similar things about Muslim women. 

 

:iagree:  I see this said about Muslim women constantly.

[bolt.]

Something I've noticed is when a christian woman wears a headcovering she is legalistic and opressed. When a Muslim woman wear's a hijab its just part of her religion. What's the difference?

When a Christian woman wears a head coving in western nations, she is choosing an element of fashion that does not have roots in her culture. She is, instead, doing so out of a desire to live according to a book that she respects and considers authoritative. That book (the Christian Bible) is revered by all Christians -- yet we see a variety of interpretive approaches about the real-time applications of its instructions.

 

When a woman chooses a head covering, and indicates that such covering is Biblically motivated, she reveals a hint about her interpretative approach to the Bible. She thus 'hints' that she tends to apply NT instructions as literally as reasonably possible -- and that she is not afraid or unable to live in that way.

 

A tendancy to literal interpretation and direct application of the Bible (at least the NT) is not *itself* legalism, but, exprientially -- people may find it correlates closely. No one can be very legalistic without a literal-and-direct interpretation style, therefore most people who are legalists do employ that style. Of course, so do some not-too-legalistic people... But the association is formed by the majority.

 

In addition, other 'hints' of legalism among Christians are the visible traits of semi-evangelical 'fundamentalists' -- one of those known traits is an exaggeration of gender ideals and a devaluation of women generally using a variety of restrictions to keep women in roles of lesser authority and/or follower-only roles.

 

Therefore a Christian woman in a headscarf sends a double 'hint' of legalism because our culture presumptively reads female-only coverage requirements as a devaluation indicator.

 

So, with two hints, people jump to conclusions.

 

When a Muslim woman wears a hijab, people correctly identify that as a normal practice in her home culture-and-religion. They assume that, having been raised to see her hair as somewhat of a 'private body part' that she is more comfortable covering it than uncovering it. An observer may not agree with that view of hair, but they can see it as a cultural difference in combination with religion.

 

It reads less like a 'over the top' religious choice (that not all believers apply to themselves) and more like a cultural norm (which it is).

 

And that's why.

Edited January 29, 2017 by bolt.

[eternalsummer]

I am not a Christian, fundamentalist or otherwise, but I would suspect that many Christian women who cover their hair are participating in a cultural norm, for their subset of the culture.  Their friends probably often cover their hair, other women at their church (who may comprise most of their meaningful social interaction) probably cover their hair, etc.

 

For Muslim women, on the other hand, I don't think you can so easily separate culture and religion, and say that the headscarf is a product of culture only.  Secular Jewish women in Israel aren't wearing hijabs.  Conservative (not sure of the correct term) Muslims are.

[bolt.]

I am not a Christian, fundamentalist or otherwise, but I would suspect that many Christian women who cover their hair are participating in a cultural norm, for their subset of the culture. Their friends probably often cover their hair, other women at their church (who may comprise most of their meaningful social interaction) probably cover their hair, etc.

 

For Muslim women, on the other hand, I don't think you can so easily separate culture and religion, and say that the headscarf is a product of culture only. Secular Jewish women in Israel aren't wearing hijabs. Conservative (not sure of the correct term) Muslims are.

Yes, Chrstian women who cover their hair might certainly be part of subcultures where other women do the same.

 

I had no intent to separate culture and religion. Religion is part of culture / culture includes religious practices.

 

I'm not trying to explain why people wear head coverings.

 

I'm trying to explain on what basis people (bystanders) make distinctly different assumptions about people wearing head coverings from population ( a ) known or pursued Muslims, and population ( b ) known or presumed Christians.

Edited January 29, 2017 by bolt.

[Farrar]

In general I think people either think it's true of both or neither. But... if there's a difference, my guess is that it's because mainstream Christianity in the US does not require that women cover their heads and that people often assume that anything that goes above and beyond what they themselves do must therefore be extreme.

 

I would personally feel oppressed if I were required to cover up. But I am happy to let individual women decide for themselves how they want to dress and feel about covering. Of course, to be able to have the choice to decide is a privilege of living in a country like the US. It's different for many women in other nations, but my desire to oppose requiring covering up doesn't mean I can't also be for the freedom to cover if you choose.

[marbel]

Partly, it depends on what people are used to and what is familiar to them.   

 

In my area there is a fair population of Amish and Mennonites, so it's not unusual to see women going about with their hair covered.  In general, no big deal. There are fewer Muslim women in hijab to be seen, but there are some, and mostly it's still no big deal. But this is a pretty diverse area.

 

But, there will always be people who think anything out of the ordinary or out of their personal experience is weird and possibly wrong.  Some people don't like any religion and find any outward sign of someone's faith distasteful.  Some dislike one religion or the other, so will think covering is fine for one group but not OK for the other.  Some people, for example, think that Christianity as a whole is oppressive to women, so seeing someone with her head covered will reinforce that idea in their minds. 

 

I assume that in the US, most women who wear head coverings are doing it because they choose to. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Partly, it depends on what people are used to and what is familiar to them.   

 

 

This is a huge part of it for me.  I admit sometimes I'm just downright afraid and confused because I'm not familiar with it.  Growing up I never saw anyone with any head covering except the occasional grandma.  I never met a Muslim person growing up.   Now I see them everywhere and the ones I encounter keep to themselves.  They seem to be as leery of me or something.  They don't want to be friends with me.  This is before knowing I'm an atheist.  So I am not sure what to make of that.  Might just be the cultural gap or language gap is too huge. 

 

I'm not crazy about Christianity, but I'm not unfamiliar with it.  So it doesn't seem strange to me.  Even when it is strange. 

 

As an atheist though there is no "in" for me to reach out and befriend.  Plenty of Christians put up with me.  Muslims, not so much.  HOWEVER, I realize there could be plenty of Muslims who might.  I just haven't encountered any yet.

 

And then most of the Christians I know seem to treat their religion like something they do privately or once a week.  They don't wear their religious convictions outwardly.  Of course some do, but they don't want to have anything to do with me generally.  And the feeling is mutual because yeah how do we work around that?  We don't beyond being civil. 

[wonderchica]

Oh, I know plenty of people who think hijab is oppressive. I disagree, but I hear people say that all the time.

[MedicMom]

Never heard that here, But I don't believe many feel Amish or Mennonite are oppressive to women.

I am very familiar with both Amish and Mennonite culture, and I absolutely feel they are oppressive towards women.

 

I personally feel the same way about a Christian head covering as I do a hijab, and I am a Christian. I feel that they both symbolize a religious and culturally view of women that I can't support.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I tend to think of both as an oppressive cultural practice.

 

I did once meet a woman who decided to cover later on in her life.  She also did not make her daughter cover.  She said she came to the conclusion on her own after many years.  She didn't feel pressured.  I believed her.  I really really did.  But I have not met many like her. 

 

I suppose we could look at any attempt to make our kids follow our personal religious practices as somewhat oppressive.  Although many see different rules for girls as particularly oppressive (stuff like raising a girl with the thought that she will be a wife and have children and doesn't need the same level of education).  To me insisting on covering up is a step beyond attending a particular church or reading from a particular book.  What's the message?  I don't understand the message.  How is this not telling a girl that she is "other".  That she needs to hide part of herself to protect herself and protect males?  I know some describe it as a special relationship with their god, but why is god having this very different relationship with girls vs boys?  I don't understand that.

[regentrude]

As an atheist though there is no "in" for me to reach out and befriend.  Plenty of Christians put up with me.  Muslims, not so much.  HOWEVER, I realize there could be plenty of Muslims who might.  I just haven't encountered any yet.

 

In which capacities have you interacted with Muslims? They are part of community, and participate in normal community activities. They are colleagues and spouses of colleagues and students and fellow parents. They attend Zumba class, parenting groups, go to the library.

It does not require religion as an "in" to interact with people.

[Rosie_0801]

I think both things are religious expressions of what is a pretty natural tendency in humans (that is, different dress codes for men and women and some degree of symbolism for women that says "sexually off-limits to everyone except spouse").  For me, the hijab is not much different than headcoverings worn by women in various societies now and historically; however, the full-tent thing they wear in Saudi Arabia seems a bit extreme, in the way that string bikinis seem extreme on the other end here in the West.

 

The tent thing is a burqa, and it's from Afghanistan, not Saudi.

[SparklyUnicorn]

In which capacities have you interacted with Muslims? They are part of community, and participate in normal community activities. They are colleagues and spouses of colleagues and students and fellow parents. They attend Zumba class, parenting groups, go to the library.

It does not require religion as an "in" to interact with people.

 

I haven't seen them in any of the activities you mention.  But me in particular, I met up with a couple via homeschool groups.  I met up with one in a library (she lived up the street from me).  I thought we hit it off pretty well and our kids got along so great.  Apparently she didn't think so.  I know I can't be sure, but I honestly think she probably felt we were too different.  She was very traditional (full body covering).

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah see that's the weird thing to me.  They are part of the community, but they aren't at any community activities I've been to.  So either I have very specific tastes, or they have their own activities they feel more comfortable attending.  There isn't much mingling.

 

Now I assume I'd probably encounter them in school related activities.  They don't all attend separate schools. Although they do have a Muslim school in my city.

 

 

[eternalsummer]

I did once meet a woman who decided to cover later on in her life.  She also did not make her daughter cover.  She said she came to the conclusion on her own after many years.  She didn't feel pressured.  I believed her.  I really really did.  But I have not met many like her. 

 

I suppose we could look at any attempt to make our kids follow our personal religious practices as somewhat oppressive.  Although many see different rules for girls as particularly oppressive (stuff like raising a girl with the thought that she will be a wife and have children and doesn't need the same level of education).  To me insisting on covering up is a step beyond attending a particular church or reading from a particular book.  What's the message?  I don't understand the message.  How is this not telling a girl that she is "other".  That she needs to hide part of herself to protect herself and protect males?  I know some describe it as a special relationship with their god, but why is god having this very different relationship with girls vs boys?  I don't understand that.

 

well, girls and boys have some fundamental biological, cultural, psychological differences.

 

the law treats them differently even here in the US in a few respects, and obviously natural inclinations and societal roles are different - men hold most of the jobs in most of the most dangerous professions (loggers, fishermen, trash collectors, construction, electricians, farmers, etc.) and these are not professions women are making a big deal about getting more access to.  Men are the only ones required to register for the draft; women still bear children and nurse them and do the vast majority of (especially early-life) childcare, both for their own and other children (as elementary school teachers and daycare providers and nurses, etc.)

 

So when there are differences both concrete in body and brain and function and differences in the way men and women function in a society or culture, it makes sense for that society's conception of god to incorporate those differences.

[eternalsummer]

specifically regarding differences in the way God wants women to dress -this makes a lot of sense to me, as religion (for me) is a concrete encoding of what society feels is the right way to regulate social interactions and obligations.

 

So if you think about it, reproductive obligations and agreements are pretty central to establishing a functional society - if you don't have cultural laws and norms about who gets the reproductive rights to whom, then things can descend into chaos pretty fast as the biological imperative to reproduce is so strong.  A woman, in that way, is a valuable resource, and it is a lot more difficult for a man to ensure that only his genes are being passed on than it is for the woman (as she is bearing the child).  So societies come up with ways to regulate that, and minimize the amount of potential fraud or abuse in the system according to the interests of the people running it.

 

[regentrude]

Yeah see that's the weird thing to me.  They are part of the community, but they aren't at any community activities I've been to.  So either I have very specific tastes, or they have their own activities they feel more comfortable attending.  There isn't much mingling.

 

 

Well, of course you have to take into account what they can and cannot participate in. So you won't see Muslim ladies in an exercise class that is not strictly women only, with no men even accidentally entering. They won't work out next to you in a public gym because they could not take off their covering.

But in ladies-only Zuba class at the women's center, there were a large number of Muslim women.

 

 

As for the lady you met at the library: I have met people, liked them, and then the relationship did not develop further - without there being any differences in origin or religion. That's just a normal thing that can happen.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, of course you have to take into account what they can and cannot participate in. So you won't see Muslim ladies in an exercise class that is not strictly women only, with no men even accidentally entering. They won't work out next to you in a public gym because they could not take off their covering.

But in ladies-only Zuba class at the women's center, there were a large number of Muslim women.

 

 

As for the lady you met at the library: I have met people, liked them, and then the relationship did not develop further - without there being any differences in origin or religion. That's just a normal thing that can happen.

 

 

Yeah I don't know.  I never see them at public events like festivals.  Never at shows in the theatre.  Never at the library.  Maybe there is some other reason for this that I'm not aware of. 

[rose]

It's interesting to me to read all of your responses. As I mentioned in the other hijab thread, I am a Christian woman that wears what essentially is a hijab. I didn't grow up this way at all. My family was very secular. My husband didn't choose it for me either. I chose it when I didn't know anyone else that wore one. I came to it because I desired to follow the instructions left by Paul in 1 Corinithians 11 about how Christian women were supposed to cover. At the time I didn't really understand why and in my early days I even went swimming with a bandana and a swimsuit. I just wanted to obey. If I say that I'm a Christian then I feel like I ought to just obey Jesus (and the apostles) literally. If things are left up for less than literal interpretations of direct NT commands then anything goes. As someone upthread said, I think that my cover makes people guess some of my other convictions (like my views on homosexuality, for example). I think that it's this and the fact that often when someone feels like they need to do something more than what you're doing it makes us uncomfortable that lead to the label of legalism. When Muslims cover sometimes people cut them some slack because they assume that they wear them because it's just part of their native clothing, like an Arab man in a tunic. As I see it, the old testament commands are a different issue. I'm happy to explain that but I don't want to derail this conversation.

[Little Nyssa]

There may be Christian and Muslim women who cover as a personal choice & expression of their faith, whose husbands may wish they did not.

I don't think you can assume that any particular woman is being oppressed & forced to cover.

[Luckymama]

People also forget that some observant Jews cover their hair, either w scarves (I forget the term please excuse me) or with wigs.

[rose]

That's why I was careful to say I consider it an oppressive practice, not, in fact, an indicator that any particular woman is oppressed by her spouse.

 

I hope that this isn't too provocative a question but do you think that women should have to cover their nipples?

 

[MercyA]

As I mentioned in the other hijab thread, I am a Christian woman that wears what essentially is a hijab. I didn't grow up this way at all. My family was very secular. My husband didn't choose it for me either. I chose it when I didn't know anyone else that wore one. I came to it because I desired to follow the instructions left by Paul in 1 Corinithians 11 about how Christian women were supposed to cover. At the time I didn't really understand why and in my early days I even went swimming with a bandana and a swimsuit. I just wanted to obey. If I say that I'm a Christian then I feel like I ought to just obey Jesus (and the apostles) literally. If things are left up for less than literal interpretations of direct NT commands then anything goes. 

 

I am also a Christian who covers based on Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 11. I didn't grow up with it, and no one else in my church covers, although a few women in my co-op group do.

 

I brought up the subject to my husband, not the other way around. He is supportive. I think he would be fine with me wearing it just to worship services, but I prefer to cover whenever I pray or read the Word aloud, so I keep it on most of the time for convenience.

 

I am neither oppressed nor legalistic.  :)

[Guest]

I am very familiar with both Amish and Mennonite culture, and I absolutely feel they are oppressive towards women.

 

I personally feel the same way about a Christian head covering as I do a hijab, and I am a Christian. I feel that they both symbolize a religious and culturally view of women that I can't support.

How about the snood?

 

I support the right of each one to practice his religion,.as long as it does not interfere with another's right to liberty and pursuit of happiness.(and.that restricted to U.S. citizens in.the U.S.)

Edited January 30, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[Crimson Wife]

There seems to be more free choice involved when Christian and Jewish women headcover in general (not talking about any specific individual). 91% of the "honor killings" in the U.S. involve Muslim immigrants who feel their daughters have become "too Westernized". When a Muslim girl or woman has to fear being murdered by her family, I don't believe that wearing a hijab is truly a matter of free choice.

[Guest]

There may be Christian and Muslim women who cover as a personal choice & expression of their faith, whose husbands may wish they did not.

I don't think you can assume that any particular woman is being oppressed & forced to cover.

I've met three different women who wanted to cover more from personal conviction, whose husbands begged them not to.

 

As a rule, OP, I assume everyone I meet is a free agent, doing what they want to do or what they feel convicted about doing. I've never in my life met someone who thought the act of veiling was hunky dory for Muslims but not Christians, Jews or Pagans. QUITE the contrary.

[Guest]

There seems to be more free choice involved when Christian and Jewish women headcover in general (not talking about any specific individual). 91% of the "honor killings" in the U.S. involve Muslim immigrants who feel their daughters have become "too Westernized". When a Muslim girl or woman has to fear being murdered by her family, I don't believe that wearing a hijab is truly a matter of free choice.

When any person has to fear being murdered by her family, the dress code is the least of their worries.

 

 

I know that you know that murderers are off the rails, but evidently it bears saying anyhow.

[rose]

I want to add that I do expect my girls to cover in public but I honestly don't see how this is different then teaching our children any of our values or expecting them to cover up in any way. If you would wince at your dd in a mini-skirt and a bikini top then you can probably sympathize with how I feel about my dds in public with their hair uncovered. We all need to set standards in our family and teach our values. If at some point they choose otherwise I'll be sad but I won't disown them or anything like that. My dd13 buys into this entirely (at least as far as I can tell). Dd4 of course doesn't think anything of her bonnet (she wears a Hutterite style girls bonnet). For her it's just what girls wear.

[eternalsummer]

It's interesting to me to read all of your responses. As I mentioned in the other hijab thread, I am a Christian woman that wears what essentially is a hijab. I didn't grow up this way at all. My family was very secular. My husband didn't choose it for me either. I chose it when I didn't know anyone else that wore one. I came to it because I desired to follow the instructions left by Paul in 1 Corinithians 11 about how Christian women were supposed to cover. At the time I didn't really understand why and in my early days I even went swimming with a bandana and a swimsuit. I just wanted to obey. If I say that I'm a Christian then I feel like I ought to just obey Jesus (and the apostles) literally. If things are left up for less than literal interpretations of direct NT commands then anything goes. As someone upthread said, I think that my cover makes people guess some of my other convictions (like my views on homosexuality, for example). I think that it's this and the fact that often when someone feels like they need to do something more than what you're doing it makes us uncomfortable that lead to the label of legalism. When Muslims cover sometimes people cut them some slack because they assume that they wear them because it's just part of their native clothing, like an Arab man in a tunic. As I see it, the old testament commands are a different issue. I'm happy to explain that but I don't want to derail this conversation.

 

I am not that familiar with the New Testament (or the Old one, really) but sometimes, as an outsider, I see this kind of thing as an easy way for people who feel like they must really prove their faith strongly to do so without sacrificing all that much.  

 

That sounds like a harsher statement than I meant it to be.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, I've heard that in the NT Jesus says things like "you must leave everything you have, including your family, and follow me," or "don't stop to bury your dead" or "give everything you have to the poor" and I wonder if covering your head is really the most difficult part of Christianity to adhere to so strictly.

 

eta: and by strictly I mean literally

Edited January 30, 2017 by ananemone

[eternalsummer]

The only clothing I have ever felt was weird or made me cringe with regard to young girls (prepubescent girls) is that which is obviously sexualized.  tiny shorts and little tank tops, or two piece swimsuits, or uncovered hair, don't make the grade for me.  I am very socially conservative, fwiw, but I don't see any need to impose gender norms meant for the regulation of sexual roles onto beings who are not yet sexual. (or even potentially sexual)

[rose]

I am not that familiar with the New Testament (or the Old one, really) but sometimes, as an outsider, I see this kind of thing as an easy way for people who feel like they must really prove their faith strongly to do so without sacrificing all that much.  

 

That sounds like a harsher statement than I meant it to be.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, I've heard that in the NT Jesus says things like "you must leave everything you have, including your family, and follow me," or "don't stop to bury your dead" or "give everything you have to the poor" and I wonder if covering your head is really the most difficult part of Christianity to adhere to so strictly.

 

eta: and by strictly I mean literally

I understand what you're saying. For some people I think that this can be the case. For what I in particular believe it's probably one of the least difficult sacrifices. I, for example, believe that we should actually sell our possessions and give them to the poor. Practically speaking what this means to me is that I try to only buy thing that help me or my family do the work that God desires of us. Luxury is forbidden. I am a servant of God and so his work is of the highest priority. I also believe in literally and completely loving my enemies and doing good to those who hate me so this means I am completely pacifist. I would sooner die then fight back. Just wearing a scarf on my head and coming across as weird to strangers is nothing compared to these responsibilities.

[SKL]

I wonder if this is an age thing or possibly regional.  When I was little, it was very common to see women covering their heads with cloth.  My mom did it when she went out - it was to keep her hair in order, but others might not think that.  :)  There are many ethnic communities where I live, so that could be why it was so common then, and still today, many of the older women and more recent arrivals do it.  These are people from Christian, Hindu, and Muslim faiths.  It feels normal to me.

[Guest]

Any random baby could walk up and latch on to dangly lady nips, though. So. Look out.

[Guest]

A friend's toddler once tried to latch on to the boobs of a statue at a garden centre, so yeah, the baby temptation is real!

Aaaawwwwwwwwwwww

[myfunnybunch]

The young Muslim women I have known have chosen to cover voluntarily, even while visiting the USA. (A couple of their friends chose not wear hijab while here.) For them, it is just how they dress. I had a head scarf from Morocco, and asked a pair of exchange students to show me how to wear it, so we discussed wearing hijab specifically, and they said that they felt called to cover their hair, and that they were allowed to choose when to start. For them, it was like a rite of passage, marking a stage in faith and growing up.

 

I assume wearing hijab in the US was for them a little like I might feel visiting a beach at which it was the norm to go topless. I would probably not do so because I would feel uncomfortable, even though it is the norm in that environment.

 

FWIW, the young Muslim women and the young Muslim men we've known and housed and welcomed into our family all spoke warmly and lovingly of their families and of practicing their faith. Wearing hijab for fear of being murdered, or the idea of killing a beloved family member over a head scarf, is as abhorrent to loving Muslim families as it is to ours. Lumping the few "honor killings" that make headlines into the practice of the Muslim faith is just as misguided as lumping the extreme abuse and child death cases caused by following parenting practices espoused by certain Christian authors into all of Christianity.

[rose]

Depends where you live. I believe it's illegal here except on nude beaches.  I can tell you on a 37C day I'd get a nasty case of sunburn if I did.

 

Generally, where I live, climate based (as opposed to gender based) covering is sensible. 

 

As a principle though, no, I don't believe the female nipple has coverable properties male nipples don't possess.

 

Dont forget, I said up thread I support your right to cover.

That's at least that's consistent. I must say I was a little sad to have to go back on topic after that fun segway about random babies.

[MercyA]

I am not that familiar with the New Testament (or the Old one, really) but sometimes, as an outsider, I see this kind of thing as an easy way for people who feel like they must really prove their faith strongly to do so without sacrificing all that much.  

 

That sounds like a harsher statement than I meant it to be.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, I've heard that in the NT Jesus says things like "you must leave everything you have, including your family, and follow me," or "don't stop to bury your dead" or "give everything you have to the poor" and I wonder if covering your head is really the most difficult part of Christianity to adhere to so strictly.

 

eta: and by strictly I mean literally

 

I'm not offended at all. I have often said that it's much easier for me than to cover than not to gossip. One person gave me a bit of a hard time when I started to cover, and I've been mildly harassed at airports (I was told point blank that I might "have a gun under my skirt"  :rolleyes: ), but generally it is a non-issue and not difficult at all.

 

I do hope that I take all of the New Testament seriously. Consistency is important to me. I appreciate the reminder tonight.

Edited January 30, 2017 by MercyA

[abba12]

I cover as a Christian, and yes I do think there's a double standard. Women who would avidly defend the right of women to wear hijab's have criticised me and made negative comments toward my covering, occasionally quite aggressively. I live in an area with a large Muslim population and I find I get stared at more than they do (even by the Muslims themselves at times!). 

 

I don't believe the Christian covering is a modesty thing. The bible talks about headship and symbolism, not modesty. I will uncover my hair around men in a private setting (dinner in someones home etc) and be covered in public among women-only, so, it's definitely not a modesty thing to my interpretation (no offence to the other ladies if it is for them of course). And of course many women only cover during church services, so there's no modesty factor there at all. However the Muslim covering is entirely modesty-based and covering up, so, for me, there's a huge difference in the coverings and what their purpose and symbolism is. One which is lost on the general public obviously since even in this thread it's become a modesty discussion. But you'll notice many Christian coverings cover far less than the hijab, and many women, myself included, let their hair hang out the bottom rather than wearing a bun. 

 

I think the double standard is because of culture, they dismiss the Muslim covering as cultural (which is, imo, offensive to the people who take it very seriously religiously). But since the mainstream Christian church doesn't cover, anyone who does is extreme and legalistic and scary, or, alternatively, can make the other person feel convicted that they aren't practising their faith 'strongly enough' (most of us don't actually believe that, but our very presence seems to create feelings of inadequacy in some women, I've had women become extremely defensive when I've said nothing at all)

 

It's frustrating, and sad, but I just try not to think about it or ever speak about it anymore.

Edited January 30, 2017 by abba12

[Guest]

"Women who would avidly defend the right of women to wear hijab's have criticised me and made negative comments toward my covering, occasionally quite aggressively"

 

In my experience, sis, "avidly defending the right to" and "aggressively criticizing" are not mutually exclusive.

 

And that, imo, is fine. Can't be friends with every one, but every one OUGHT to have the right to do as they please.

 

That you're only seeing the defense of others rights is probably just because they can't very well criticize you for what some Muslims do.

[abba12]

Honestly, I think this idea that liberal  ("some") women are all about the hijab but loathe covering Christians is a media beat up. 

 

Most liberal women I know personally are all about trying to balance a respect for women's right to cover/not cover, regardless of religion, with a perhaps less than enthusiatic embrace the practice. 

 

Despite the fact that in my personal lived experience, I've encountered multiple women like this, and also never seen a mass media article referencing christian coverings at all, much less sympathising with them over Muslims. Yes, definitely just the media....  :glare:

Edited January 30, 2017 by abba12

[poppy]

Why are Christians scorned and Muslims celebrated? Weird thread.  I know a whole lot of people absolutely do not support Muslim women's headcovering at all, and a portion of them probably would wholeheartedly approve of a Christian woman displaying an atypical level of modesty.  So it probably goes both ways.

 

But when it's "Christians scorned, Muslims celebrated"... hmmmmm.  If / when that happens, it's probably not really about the headcovering. Many very progressive Muslim women wear headcoverings.  This group is well represented in academia and social media.  I think hajib, I picture smart, well educated, outspoken, progressive women I went to college and grad school with.  Women who wear it for religious fundamentalism reason are not as well known - and probably wouldn't' choose to be . I can't see that group getting a huge pat on the back and seal of approval from progressives.    So, I guess I'd say it's more about political alignment than anything else.