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Hijab or christian covering


moonsong
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You've encountered multiple liberal women who give you a hard time for covering at the same time as they are all 'Oh, I love the hijab!" ?

 

Must make them different outside Sydney.

 

No, they don't love the hijab. But when I point out their criticism, they tell me the hijab is different, and my covering is not 'ok' in the same way the hijab is because it's not cultural and the majority church doesn't do it. The hijab is 'different' apparently. I have literally been told the hijab is ok but my veil is not.

They are people who are outspoken in support of muslims (a common conversational topic these days with trump and other drama) even while making snide comments or open criticisms of my coverings. 

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No, they don't love the hijab. But when I point out their criticism, they tell me the hijab is different, and my covering is not 'ok' in the same way the hijab is because it's not cultural and the majority church doesn't do it. The hijab is 'different' apparently. I have literally been told the hijab is ok but my veil is not.

They are people who are outspoken in support of muslims (a common conversational topic these days with trump and other drama) even while making snide comments or open criticisms of my coverings. 

 

So we're talking about like a couple people? Why on earth would you have more than 1 conversation with them?

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So we're talking about like a couple people? Why on earth would you have more than 1 conversation with tT

 

3 I can think of quickly. I don't know about 'self identified' liberals, I wasn't debating that part, only talking about the fact there are some people out there who believe hijabs are different to christian coverings and that muslim coverings are more acceptable.

 

I don't set out to talk to them. But one of these people is my (definitely liberal) step mother, another attends my church (neither liberal nor conservative, but is very pro-muslim), so I can't very well avoid them completely either. Most of the rest of my family hates my covering too, but they also hate muslims so at least they're consistent in being wrong  :glare:

Edited by abba12
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3 I can think of quickly. I don't know about 'self identified' liberals, I wasn't debating that part, only talking about the fact there are some people out there who believe hijabs are different to christian coverings and that muslim coverings are more acceptable.

 

I don't set out to talk to them. But one of these people is my (definitely liberal) step mother, another attends my church (neither liberal nor conservative, but is very pro-muslim), so I can't very well avoid them completely either. Most of the rest of my family hates my covering too, but they also hate muslims so at least they're consistent in being wrong  :glare:

 

I'm sorry that you have to deal with people that denigrate something that is important to you, Abba.

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In some majority Muslim countries if women don't wear a head covering, or full body and face cover in some instances, they are threatened with being beaten, raped, publicly shamed etc. That's clearly the oppression of women.

 

In cases where Christian women dress modestly in majority Christian countries they are not doing it for fear of punishment, hence it could be seen as an act of virtue rather than one of fear.

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Something I've noticed is when a christian woman wears a headcovering she is legalistic and opressed. When a Muslim woman wear's a hijab its just part of her religion. What's the difference?

 

This is an interesting discussion.

 

I think these two ideas are sometimes held by the same people, but the reasons are understandable, if not always logical. For example, they may not feel like they should be calling out Muslim women, who they think are subject to wrongheaded attitudes by westerners, even if in and of itself they aren't a fan of head-covering.  They may not see CHristians as being in that same boat (which may or may not be true - head-covering Christians aren't in a lot of powerful positions in my experience.)

 

Also, as mentioned above, they may assume that it is a matter of being normative in dress or an extremist.  That's a little incorrect, I think - Muslim women born hear may still headcover, and in some Muslim countries many don't cover.  But in many cases its true in the sense that many Muslim women who cover do it without it being a very conscious statement, if they did come from a place where that is usual.

 

I find people often forget how recently head covering for women was the norm in North America - not scarves so much as hats, and more social than religious, but I used to know a lot of elderly ladies who still dressed according to that convention.

 

Personally, I don't really have a problem with gender-specific clothing in most cases.  I think clothing is actually a pretty reasonable way to show sex differences which many (most?) people want to highlight to some extent at least some of the time - its pretty benign whether convention says men and women can wear skirts or not, or certain colours, or whatever.  Not like telling people they can't do particular jobs or drive, or other things.  But since there is an arbitrary quality, it does require some level of social agreement to have those kinds of markers at all.

 

Mind you, that's social convention, which can be pretty powerful, but isn't law.  Modesty laws, if it were just an individual thing, I can do without.  They may have other uses though in terms of things like advertising and such.

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Oh - in the case where it is people of the same religion, I think there can be a totally different dynamic.  I can easily imagine a Catholic, for example, who doesn't agree with Catholic women covering, for theological reasons, but has no issue with a Muslim women covering.  But in the latter case, she's likely not thinking in terms of Islamic theology at all but instead in a more general social sense.

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I've never come across the sentiment that a Muslim woman should be supported in wearing head covering, but Christian women should be shamed from the same thing. Does anyone have some reference? A blog or article or forum where people support this? It would be interesting to hear it first account.

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I've never come across the sentiment that a Muslim woman should be supported in wearing head covering, but Christian women should be shamed from the same thing. Does anyone have some reference? A blog or article or forum where people support this? It would be interesting to hear it first account.

 

abba12 related her experiences with this in posts 52, 55, and 58.  

Edited by marbel
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In some majority Muslim countries if women don't wear a head covering, or full body and face cover in some instances, they are threatened with being beaten, raped, publicly shamed etc. That's clearly the oppression of women.

 

In cases where Christian women dress modestly in majority Christian countries they are not doing it for fear of punishment, hence it could be seen as an act of virtue rather than one of fear.

While I understand the distinction you're trying to make, the idea that Muslim women cover out of fear (= bad), and Christian women cover out of faith (= good/acceptable) is incredibly reductionist.

 

The OP is actually asking about different attitudes from non-covered women toward head-covering Christian vs. Muslim women in (presumably, because head covering is not a majority practice where she is) a non-Arabic country.

 

Not all Muslim women choose to wear hijab, especially where it is not a majority practice, and Muslim women who cover do so by choice, and often it can be an expression of deep faith, just as it can be for Christian women. As neither are residing in a larger culture that practices/insists on head covering, I think the only safe assumption about a women wearing a head covering is that her head is covered. To assume faith or lack thereof, or fear or lack thereof, based on the particular religion practiced is presumptuous.

 

This is really important to my heart because any implication that the many lovely young Muslim women I've met and welcomed into my heart are fearful rather than faithful or are not treasured by their families, simply because of their faith or country of origin, makes me sad.

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I'm a Christian woman who used to cover during church services due to "biblical conviction" (I was neither legalistic of oppressed), but who no longer covers for that reason. Conviction and interpretation can change, believe it or not.  Plus I came to my personal conviction after a sincere study of the scriptures, verse by verse.  Then I talked with people who did the exact same thing (made a sincere study of the scriptures, verse by verse) but came to the opposite conclusion.  It was baffling!  And in the back of my mind, I thought, "It's been 2000 years -- hasn't the church figured this out by now??"

 

That said for background's sake, I still cover for church services and prayer, but now it's because it's church tradition and not because I personally decided to based on my own study of the scriptures.*  It's made a huge difference in my thoughts on and approach toward head covering.  I don't even really think about it anymore; I don't have to wonder if my interpretation or conviction will change.  I cover because most Orthodox women throughout the world and throughout time cover(ed). Why?  Tradition.**  If you look at icons, the vast majority of women saints have a headcovering on (except maybe St. Mary of Egypt and a few others?), the Theotokos always has a head covering on, etc.  So I wear one, too. If it means I'm different from men, so be it.  I am.  They traditionally wear beards. 

 

As for the approach of the church toward women, I can truly say I've never felt more respected as a woman than I have in the Orthodox church.  Others may think that because I can't do certain things (be a priest, go into the altar, etc.) that I'm oppressed but I don't agree that varying roles based on gender equals oppression. 

 

*By the way #1, not all Orthodox Christian women cover for church (nor do all men have beards) in modern times and especially in the west, and I hope I have no negative thoughts or judgment toward those that don't.  Also, rare is the Orthodox woman in our western society who covers all the time.  Covering is a practice, not a theological statement.from my understanding.   

 

**By the way #2, tradition is not bad. That's an unarguable given when it comes to what I write. (As in, you can't argue about that with me.  I'm already wholeheartedly convinced that tradition is not bad.)

Edited by milovany
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