Do you think $250,000/year is wealthy?

[HRAAB]

Um....I was quite poor in college. I worked almost full-time and still ended up with 30,000 in student loans. We (dh and I) were quite poor in grad school. We did not have extras. We lived in married student housing because it had the cheapest rent, etc. We came out of school with $100,000 in student loans. I think your statement is a gross overgeneralization.

 

This is just a general comment. If you have $100,000 or $75,000 or $50,000 in student loans, and can look at your life now and say, "it was worth it", it has paid off with employment, the experience was very worthwhile, etc., it was a good decision and I wouldn't do it differently, then it's good. I know several people who regret their huge student loans and do wish they had done it differently. Their current employment is not justifying the amount of the loans they have, especially with mortgages, car payments and children. It's different for different people.

 

I'm thankful my dh and I didn't have student loans, and I would in no way be comfortable with that huge of a debt. But, of course, our earning power is less with our business degrees from a state college than what someone coming out of a private college probably has.

 

Janet

[SheilaZ]

It still all boils down to choices. DH and I chose to live in a less expensive house, so we could afford our mortgage. We chose not to take yerly vacations, so we can afford for me to stay home and homeschool.

 

I chose an affordable state run college so I could afford my student loans. I worked each year to pay for my costs and took extra credit hours because there was a flat rate after 15 hours. (takiing 19 hours meant I got a "free" class and lab. Woohoo!)

DH chose a small local college and lived at home because he had a set amount of money for college. He graduated with no student loans at all.

 

DH is working on his masters now. He is taking long distance classes after his work day. It's taking longer but he's still able to do his regular job and support his family. Sure, he'd love to just take off and knock out his masters...but he's not willing to incur the debt to do it.

[Scarlett]

Um....I was quite poor in college. I worked almost full-time and still ended up with 30,000 in student loans. We (dh and I) were quite poor in grad school. We did not have extras. We lived in married student housing because it had the cheapest rent, etc. We came out of school with $100,000 in student loans. I think your statement is a gross overgeneralization.

 

100K in student loans? That boggles my mind. Are one of you a doctor or lawyer? Do you make enough money now that you think 100K in loans is not so much?

 

Oh I see you both went to grad school. I just disagree with incurring that sort of debt to have an advanced degree. I would never do it. I would strongly discourage my son from doing it.

 

250K would go a lot further without 100K in loans.

 

Choices. We all have to live with our choices.

[LisaKinVA]

There is one tax figure I've seen repeated here, that is NOT correct.

 

The 35% tax bracket does NOT, I repeat, does NOT include Social Security, Medicare, etc. Those taxes are in addition to the 35% income taxes.

 

When I was self-employed (S-Corp) from 1999-2001, I made over $100k a year. Guess how much (TOTAL) went to taxes? 45%. 20% went to Social Security and Medicare, 7% went to state taxes and the other 20% went to income taxes. Sure, I got to "keep" about $55,000 -- Our mortgage was $1,500 a month (not including property taxes, or utilities), I had to pay for our own health care (over $1,000 a month), food, etc. Oh, and there are the medical bills our health care didn't cover we had to come up with money for (about $18,000). We had one car payment as well. It all got eaten up pretty fast. Our home was 1700 sq. ft. I drove a 2yo car we bought used, my dh drove a 10yo car. We were not living "high on the hog" by any stretch.

 

In all of their earning lives, my in-laws made over $250k for a total of 10 years. Due to the business they are in, they aren't allowed to deduct many things that other businesses may -- however, they are also responsible for paying 100% of their Social Security, 100% of their health care, and if they want retirment money -- save for that too.

 

Will they ever retire -- despite making over $250k a year for 10 years? Nope. They will be working at the bed and breakfast they are building for their so-called "retirement."

 

Where I currently live, it is not uncommon to have two professionals in a household who combined make $250,000 a year. They carpool to save money, live in a solidly middle-class home, and basically work hard to create a future for their family. At times, one or both may work 70-80 hours a week.

 

Everyone I know in that $250k+ income bracket (I don't know anyone who is independently wealthy... err, doesn't work), works extremely hard for the money -- and if I put myself back into the market for a higher-paying job, my dh and I would be in that $250k bracket.... easilly.

 

I would feel a bit more comortable -- but I wouldn't feel "wealthy." At least not immediately. Maybe after a few years I would... but certainly not right away.

 

I also wouldn't be taking it for granted. We've seen our family income swing from a high of $135k to a low of $24k. So, I wouldn't count on anything "lasting" like that.

 

Are we better off today than we were 8 years ago? No. But, are we better off than we were 7 years ago? H E double L yeah. Next year -- as long as nothing changes for us financially -- we will be making more than dh and I ever have made jointly since we've been married. However, we will still be way behind on the saving curve -- after losing close to $100k in the tech bubble. I guess it's a "good" thing we plan to keep working into our 70's...

 

Everyone has a story -- so to me, to blanketly say that "anyone" making $250k a year is "wealthy," despite where they live, or what they've come through is a fallacy. It's an arbitrary number. Anyone who works hard for their money, to me, is a working-class American. Some are tradesmen, blue-collar workers, who earn with physical labor. Some are professionals who pursued advanced degrees and had to spend YEARS working long hours for next to nothing, and finally get noticed or promoted. Some, served in the military, got out and worked 2 jobs and put themselves through college -- and rarely saw their young families -- finally to reach a modest level of success in their early 50's.

 

And, I don't begrudge any of them one red cent.

 

Saying that, from my dark corner of the basement (I have to keep the lights off, because the hallogen bulbs make me sweat... and being 7mos. pregnant, sweating isn't my idea of fun).

[Scarlett]

 

Everyone has a story -- so to me, to blanketly say that "anyone" making $250k a year is "wealthy," despite where they live, or what they've come through is a fallacy. It's an arbitrary number. Anyone who works hard for their money, to me, is a working-class American. Some are tradesmen, blue-collar workers, who earn with physical labor. Some are professionals who pursued advanced degrees and had to spend YEARS working long hours for next to nothing, and finally get noticed or promoted. Some, served in the military, got out and worked 2 jobs and put themselves through college -- and rarely saw their young families -- finally to reach a modest level of success in their early 50's.

 

And, I don't begrudge any of them one red cent.

 

Saying that, from my dark corner of the basement (I have to keep the lights off, because the hallogen bulbs make me sweat... and being 7mos. pregnant, sweating isn't my idea of fun).

 

I have one question..........did you once live in AR?

[Renee in NC]

Lisa, I posted the tax figure using a 1040 calculator. I didn't just use the 35% number that gets thrown around.

 

FICA (both sides) is 15.3% up to $89,500 and then 2.9% after that. I factored in the self-employed health insurance deduction, the student loan deduction, 4 people in the family, and that it was a Sole Prop (so paying both sides of the FICA.)

 

With an S-Corp, you don't pay both sides of the FICA on your total income, but rather on your reasonable salary. The rest is considered investment income and only pays federal income tax. When I worked for a CPA, they did *numerous* things to shelter income from tax. We did have a couple of bed and breakfasts and there are ways to deduct the expenses legally while also accounting for personal use of the premesis.

 

I am sorry that you paid 45% of your income in taxes - a good accountant would have helped you pay less. I don't care HOW much you make - no one should be paying 45% of their income in income taxes.

[sagira]

We're not poor here in Florida, and we make around $45,000-$50,000. We're middle class, and I think making $250,000 is wealthy, as that's four times as much as we're making. We take vacations, own our own home, are well fed, and our Christmas tree is full underneath on Christmas morning. I consider myself firmly middle class.

 

Yes, there has been so belt-tightening recently, things like no extravagant gifts, bargain shopping for costumes and staying one less night at the hotel for our vacation, but nothing too serious or urgent. Dh works in retail and his store has been hit quite hard this year, but it's turning around.

Edited October 16, 2008 by sagira

[Colleen]

The fact that we all might make choices that limit our disposable income doesn't change the fact that $250,000 is wealthy.

 

It seems to me that some people are saying that it isn't "wealthy" mainly because they don't want the connotations that they think go with that term. But the fact that you are wealthy doesn't mean, imo, that people should have a grudge about you, or that the government should lay a heavy tax burden on you. To me, it means acknowledging the degree to which God has blessed you financially. It's not bragging, it's just being truthful.

 

It's also respectful of others with less to acknowledge that, imo. If a person from a third world country came to our apartment, and looked around at wonder at our home, at our computers, all of our food in the cupboards, tv, etc., etc., and told us how blessed we were to be so wealthy, I wouldn't say, "Well, actually, when you live here in the US, this is NOTHING!!!"

 

You summed this all up perfectly, Erica.

[LisaKinVA]

I have one question..........did you once live in AR?

 

Yes... is it that obvious? :D Or do I know you from that point in life?

[Renee in NC]

I just used an income tax calculator for an income of $110,000 in VA with a family of 3. I figured both sides of FICA, federal income tax, and state income tax and it came to just under $28,000 - about 25.4%.

[LisaKinVA]

I just used an income tax calculator for an income of $110,000 in VA with a family of 3. I figured both sides of FICA, federal income tax, and state income tax and it came to just under $28,000 - about 25.4%.

 

I wasn't living in VA at the time... taxes were higher in the state I was living. I would have paid less in VA than I did where I was living at the time.

[Scarlett]

Yes... is it that obvious? :D Or do I know you from that point in life?

 

:lol: No...on both counts. I confused someone else on the boards yesterday with you...I made reference to her time in AR and she sent me a PM asking me what AR means. :)

 

That's all. Just satisfying my curiosity.

[Renee in NC]

I wasn't living in VA at the time... taxes were higher in the state I was living. I would have paid less in VA than I did where I was living at the time.

 

VA does have lower taxes! Ours in NC start at 6%.:glare: So, you could have paid up to 4% more depending on the state. If it was AR, revise the above numbers up an additional 1.25%.

 

My mother has it the best - FL doesn't have state income tax.:D

[Jenny in Atl]

No, in a CAPITAL market $250,000 is NOT wealthy.

In a socialist economy, YES it is, because not everyone can achieve it.

Purely from a small business perspective, why would anyone risk mortgaging their home and personal assets to start a business if their wealth tops out at $250,000? There is SUBSTANTIAL risk in starting a small business, thus, there must be the hope for SUBSTANTIAL reward. That's how a capital market works.

 

A free enterprise capital market system doesn't work that way to redistribute wealth. It doesn't stimulate small business, it hinders it, it doesn't stimulate jobs, it cuts jobs by cutting the source of the jobs. It's socialism.

 

I find this amusing since you are posting from one of the biggest welfare states in the US. Where has anyone one said 250k should be the limit to what a business makes, small or large? I'm a Fair Tax fan, so you will get no debate from me that taxes are no fun, but please... 250k in Alaska. You would be living high on the hog. Wealth does not equal bad. Spreading the wealth around if don't w/o force is good. I don't love socialist systems, but I also think pure capitalism is any better. The question we have to ask it how can we help others to help themselves w/o taring each other down?

[LisaKinVA]

:lol: No...on both counts. I confused someone else on the boards yesterday with you...I made reference to her time in AR and she sent me a PM asking me what AR means. :)

 

That's all. Just satisfying my curiosity.

 

For the sake of curiosity, these are all the states in which I have lived:

 

San Francisco Bay Area, CA

Atlanta, GA,

Ft. Lauderdale, FL,

Ft. Smith, AR and

Lynchburg, Vienna and Fredericksburg, VA.

I also resided in DC for awhile, but it's not a state.

 

I've paid taxes in FL, AR and VA... I filed my first return in 1985. Highest wage-earning year was 2000... although, I could be earning about 3x my current income if I wanted to put my kids in school, stop working from home and commute to DC again (NOT happening).

 

Saved and paid my way through college, although I did take out about $7k to make it through my final year. Was strongly encouraged to either get my masters/doctorate or attend law school. Couldn't justify the $$$ for my masters, and after doing a stint as an intern in a DC law firm, couldn't stand the lifestyle of a young lawyer.

 

Ahh, the choices I've made... and my 2yo just brought me "flowers" (dandylions). Such a sweetie.

[SquirrellyMama]

$250,000 would be wealthy around here. I haven't read all the replies but I do want to say that I don't think things like student loans should be deducted from the amount when deciding whether it is wealthy.

 

Someone could say, "I make $500,000 but when you deduct cars, house, loans, credit cards, and cable we are really not wealthy." Those are all choices you make. You can live without a $300,000 house or a new car. I realize that houses are more expensive in some areas but you have the choice of moving.

 

We gross $55,000 (net around 47,000) and we are not poor. Although some people might think we are with all three of our children sharing one room, no cable tv, no playstation and we all wear consignment shop clothing.

 

Kelly

[Mamasteff]

But I'm thinking that if you are making more than 97% of the population of a rather wealthy country, it seems pretty ridiculous to think you are "middle class."

 

Unless math has changed recently, 97% is NOT middle. I have noticed that most people THINK they are middle class when they definitely are not.

 

FWIW, I live in Southern California and we make combined less than $100k. We have a 45 year old house with floors and windows that need replacing. We do not have a pool. We do not belong to the country club. My husband's used car cost $1000 from a friend at church.

 

I do NOT think we are poor. My husband is considering sending dd to private school. We have two cars (not new, not gorgeous, but serviceable). We are paying into retirement accounts (another whole ball of twine after last week!).

 

Especially compared to another country we lived in previously, we are wealthy. Now, I can come home from a friend's house and be sad because her house was built in 2005 and has 3200 sf, she has a nice new luxury SUV and $300 shoes- and I know she thinks she is "middle class" and "struggling to make ends meet." Or I can come home and compare my 1500 sf home to the 500 sf home with concrete walls and dirt floor of my friends overseas, who moved into the "middle class" when they bought a used refrigerator (their first one ever!), who always went above and beyond in their generosity, giving my kids clothing, slaughtering a sheep to share with us, giving us the biggest and best of what they had.

 

I think anyone with $250k a year who thinks they are middle class needs to look very carefully at choices they have made, square footage and year of construction of their home, car - make, model and payments, etc.

[LisaKinVA]

My mother has it the best - FL doesn't have state income tax.:D

 

 

While I'm not a fan of income taxes... FL gets their money other ways (registering a car, at least when I lived there, was very expensive, although you could drive a POS car with headlights that fell out when you went over a speed bump -- as were property taxes)

 

I've been moving more and more into the Fair Tax (consumption tax) camp.

[Renee in NC]

While I'm not a fan of income taxes... FL gets their money other ways (registering a car, at least when I lived there, was very expensive, although you could drive a POS car with headlights that fell out when you went over a speed bump -- as were property taxes)

 

I've been moving more and more into the Fair Tax (consumption tax) camp.

 

I agree with you.

 

My mother pays pretty high property taxes and they are getting ready to go higher. FL gets most of their tax revenue from tourism, so when tourism goes down, so do revenues. She also pays an additional 10 cents per gallon of gas.

[bkpan]

$250,000 would be wealthy around here. I haven't read all the replies but I do want to say that I don't think things like student loans should be deducted from the amount when deciding whether it is wealthy.

 

Someone could say, "I make $500,000 but when you deduct cars, house, loans, credit cards, and cable we are really not wealthy." Those are all choices you make. You can live without a $300,000 house or a new car. I realize that houses are more expensive in some areas but you have the choice of moving.

 

We gross $55,000 (net around 47,000) and we are not poor. Although some people might think we are with all three of our children sharing one room, no cable tv, no playstation and we all wear consignment shop clothing.

 

Kelly

 

Yes, that's just it. 250K is wealth no matter where you live. It is that number that may enable you to live where you are. I just keep shaking my head at this thread. Why is this so difficult to acknowledge I wonder?

 

I don't believe that wealth is that subjective. We may not want to see ourselves as "wealthy" because of connotations, but that doesn't change the math.

 

Money is simply "freedom" to me. The more you have, the freer you are to make choices in life. Yes, they are simply choices. Some have them, and many do not.

 

I just think that anyone who doesn't think that a quarter of a million dollars isn't wealthy just isn't thinking this through. And, it just saddens me for those who really struggle through life. How do you suppose it appears to those looking from the bottom up at those that make that kind of money, and don't think they're wealthy?!?

 

Sorry, I'm not entirely sure why this thread seems so dreadfully sad to me. It just does.

 

Kim

[Scarlett]

I agree with you.

 

My mother pays pretty high property taxes and they are getting ready to go higher. FL gets most of their tax revenue from tourism, so when tourism goes down, so do revenues. She also pays an additional 10 cents per gallon of gas.

 

We pay $1400 a year in real estate taxes. Just paid our $300 personal property tax...on our two old cars. Our real estate taxes are high for this area. My parents pay nothing after the homestead exemption.

[Tracey in TX]

AWWWW - did you have to go there?

 

A&M is really a very good school. I didn't go there, but if I had it to do over again, I would have. Tech is really coming up as well, especially in the science fields.

I graduated from Tech b/c DH relo'd here, but do not want DCs attending TTU or living in Lubbock. Is A&M public? I thought it was private, hence my not mentioning it as a viable option.

[LizzyBee]

Our society is indoctrinated into thinking that the "wealthy" owe the rest. They should pay the higher taxes. They are to be despised. They are to be judged on how they spend their money. Etc.

 

 

FTR, I don't feel that way at all. Because of my profession, I regularly work with people who are worth millions. Some of them were born into families with money and some of them have worked their way out of poverty. (Those I know who were born into money are also hard workers.) A partner at a firm where I used to work asked me if working with wealthy people made me want what they had. Honestly, no. I've not found people with more money to be happier than people with less money. Most of them are no less stressed about money than people who are barely scraping by. They have more money; they create bigger bills. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have more money than I have. But I don't envy those who have more and I respect their willingness to work hard to get where they are. I've made other choices and I don't regret the choices I've made, just as I respect the choices others have made. All that to say, just because I answered the OP's question with a yes, please don't read motives or emotions that don't exist into that answer.

 

I'm adding a smilie because I'm concerned this post will sound emotional or defensive even though it's not. :001_smile:

[momto2Cs]

Yes, that's just it. 250K is wealth no matter where you live. It is that number that may enable you to live where you are. I just keep shaking my head at this thread. Why is this so difficult to acknowledge I wonder?

 

I don't believe that wealth is that subjective. We may not want to see ourselves as "wealthy" because of connotations, but that doesn't change the math.

 

Money is simply "freedom" to me. The more you have, the freer you are to make choices in life. Yes, they are simply choices. Some have them, and many do not.

 

I just think that anyone who doesn't think that a quarter of a million dollars isn't wealthy just isn't thinking this through. And, it just saddens me for those who really struggle through life. How do you suppose it appears to those looking from the bottom up at those that make that kind of money, and don't think they're wealthy?!?

 

Sorry, I'm not entirely sure why this thread seems so dreadfully sad to me. It just does.

 

Kim

 

:iagree:

[Bess]

I think anyone with $250k a year who thinks they are middle class needs to look very carefully at choices they have made, square footage and year of construction of their home, car - make, model and payments, etc.

 

 

Agreed!!!

 

This thread is something else. My goodness, aren't we spoiled Americans to think that one has to make over $250,000 a year to be considered wealthy. Sheesh. That is absolutely ridiculous!

[KidsHappen]

There is one tax figure I've seen repeated here, that is NOT correct.

 

The 35% tax bracket does NOT, I repeat, does NOT include Social Security, Medicare, etc. Those taxes are in addition to the 35% income taxes.

 

When I was self-employed (S-Corp) from 1999-2001, I made over $100k a year. Guess how much (TOTAL) went to taxes? 45%. 20% went to Social Security and Medicare, 7% went to state taxes and the other 20% went to income taxes. Sure, I got to "keep" about $55,000 -- Our mortgage was $1,500 a month (not including property taxes, or utilities), I had to pay for our own health care (over $1,000 a month), food, etc. Oh, and there are the medical bills our health care didn't cover we had to come up with money for (about $18,000). We had one car payment as well. It all got eaten up pretty fast. Our home was 1700 sq. ft. I drove a 2yo car we bought used, my dh drove a 10yo car. We were not living "high on the hog" by any stretch.

 

In all of their earning lives, my in-laws made over $250k for a total of 10 years. Due to the business they are in, they aren't allowed to deduct many things that other businesses may -- however, they are also responsible for paying 100% of their Social Security, 100% of their health care, and if they want retirment money -- save for that too.

 

Will they ever retire -- despite making over $250k a year for 10 years? Nope. They will be working at the bed and breakfast they are building for their so-called "retirement."

 

Where I currently live, it is not uncommon to have two professionals in a household who combined make $250,000 a year. They carpool to save money, live in a solidly middle-class home, and basically work hard to create a future for their family. At times, one or both may work 70-80 hours a week.

 

Everyone I know in that $250k+ income bracket (I don't know anyone who is independently wealthy... err, doesn't work), works extremely hard for the money -- and if I put myself back into the market for a higher-paying job, my dh and I would be in that $250k bracket.... easilly.

 

I would feel a bit more comortable -- but I wouldn't feel "wealthy." At least not immediately. Maybe after a few years I would... but certainly not right away.

 

I also wouldn't be taking it for granted. We've seen our family income swing from a high of $135k to a low of $24k. So, I wouldn't count on anything "lasting" like that.

 

Are we better off today than we were 8 years ago? No. But, are we better off than we were 7 years ago? H E double L yeah. Next year -- as long as nothing changes for us financially -- we will be making more than dh and I ever have made jointly since we've been married. However, we will still be way behind on the saving curve -- after losing close to $100k in the tech bubble. I guess it's a "good" thing we plan to keep working into our 70's...

 

Everyone has a story -- so to me, to blanketly say that "anyone" making $250k a year is "wealthy," despite where they live, or what they've come through is a fallacy. It's an arbitrary number. Anyone who works hard for their money, to me, is a working-class American. Some are tradesmen, blue-collar workers, who earn with physical labor. Some are professionals who pursued advanced degrees and had to spend YEARS working long hours for next to nothing, and finally get noticed or promoted. Some, served in the military, got out and worked 2 jobs and put themselves through college -- and rarely saw their young families -- finally to reach a modest level of success in their early 50's.

 

And, I don't begrudge any of them one red cent.

 

Saying that, from my dark corner of the basement (I have to keep the lights off, because the hallogen bulbs make me sweat... and being 7mos. pregnant, sweating isn't my idea of fun).

 

 

:iagree: I would rep you if I could.

[mo2]

Yes, that's just it. 250K is wealth no matter where you live. It is that number that may enable you to live where you are. I just keep shaking my head at this thread. Why is this so difficult to acknowledge I wonder?

 

I don't believe that wealth is that subjective. We may not want to see ourselves as "wealthy" because of connotations, but that doesn't change the math.

 

Money is simply "freedom" to me. The more you have, the freer you are to make choices in life. Yes, they are simply choices. Some have them, and many do not.

 

I just think that anyone who doesn't think that a quarter of a million dollars isn't wealthy just isn't thinking this through. And, it just saddens me for those who really struggle through life. How do you suppose it appears to those looking from the bottom up at those that make that kind of money, and don't think they're wealthy?!?

 

Sorry, I'm not entirely sure why this thread seems so dreadfully sad to me. It just does.

 

Kim

 

:iagree:, coming from someone on the "bottom." We make less than $30,000 with both of us working. It is very limiting. No one will ever convince me that $250,000 is not wealthy.

[Tracey in TX]

 

I don't believe that wealth is that subjective. We may not want to see ourselves as "wealthy" because of connotations, but that doesn't change the math.

 

Money is simply "freedom" to me. The more you have, the freer you are to make choices in life. Yes, they are simply choices. Some have them, and many do not.

 

I just think that anyone who doesn't think that a quarter of a million dollars isn't wealthy just isn't thinking this through.

 

 

Kim

 

It is not wealthy. Perhaps from the outside looking in, but it really isn't. It's a comfortable, luxurious existence. Perhaps year after year of a strong six figure income one could amass wealth. Wealth is not an accumulation of things, stuff. That really is meaningless. It's about security and all that entails. The ability to sleep knowing insurance is covered, mortgage is (or someday will be) paid in full, kids' college education is funded, and retirement is a possibility without the expectation social security will cover any of it. These are all examples of what wealth accomplishes, but takes years to accomplish. Unless you're living with your parents hoarding away money.

To say $250,000 is wealthy and ridicule those who disagree is blatantly wrong. And naive.

[Scarlett]

It is not wealthy. Perhaps from the outside looking in, but it really isn't. It's a comfortable, luxurious existence. Perhaps year after year of a strong six figure income one could amass wealth. Wealth is not an accumulation of things, stuff. That really is meaningless. It's about security and all that entails.

 

 

Ok, this made my head spin.

 

It isn't wealthy, but it is a comfortable, luxurious existence. ??? Ok, if you want to say it is a comfortable luxurious existence instead of wealthy, I'm good with that.

 

Perhaps year after year of a strong six figure income one could amss wealth...but wealth is not an accumulation of things. ??

 

:confused:

[laughing lioness]

Absolutely. We know several families that make this much and they are wealthy. Sure, most of them went to school for a long time to get there but the fact that they had the freedom to do so (and generally the availability of student loans) doesn't detract from the status of wealth that they are now enjoying or that they are making far more the most people in the world.

 

I've lived on both coasts and while that amount of money doesn't go as far in CT or CA as it would here, it doesn't keep anybody on bread line either.

[Renee in NC]

We pay $1400 a year in real estate taxes. Just paid our $300 personal property tax...on our two old cars. Our real estate taxes are high for this area. My parents pay nothing after the homestead exemption.

 

Ahhh....my mother paid $5000 last year in property taxes on her main home and another $3000 or so on her rental properties. She is in Volusia County and in the past would have been "wealthy" (or pretty durn close to it!)

[Colleen]

It is not wealthy...It's a comfortable, luxurious existence.

 

"I'm not wealthy; I just lead a luxurious existence.":rofl:

 

To say $250,000 is wealthy and ridicule those who disagree is blatantly wrong. And naive.

 

No less "wrong" or "naive" than your own opinion.

[LisaKinVA]

I suppose some people have a different definition of "wealthy" -- to me, "wealthy" means NOT having to work to maintain a comfortable living.

 

Growing up, those were the "wealthy" people. Not the people who were working shoulder to shoulder with others, but maybe in a different line of work. People who worked, but earned a good deal more than my family were considered "well off" -- but not necessarilly "wealthy."

 

It's a matter of definition.

 

Perhaps, it's more that I've lived the vast majority of my life in high-wage, high-cost-of-living areas (other than the year I was in Atlanta), that has "skewed" my viewpoint.

 

But, growing up, the only "wealthy" person my parents and grandparents ever spoke of, was an aunt (my grandma's aunt) who owned a majority share of an oil company, and lived off of the profits. The accountant that made about 3-4x what my parents did were "well off." They weren't wealthy.

 

So, that mentality was passed down to me from my gradparents (one, a farmer and the other a union assembly line worker), and my parents.

 

Where, instead of classifying people by those who work for a living to better their lives, versus those who are instead able live off of the work of others as wealthy -- we define it by an arbitrary amount of money.

 

Maybe, then, it's not my view of who is "wealthy" that is skewed -- but time and various economic policies over the last 70 years which has done the "skewing."

[RebeccaC]

I posted this earlier on a thread that Jean in Wisc started but I thought I would post it here to.....

 

I have not read all of this thread but I am going to dive in a bit different way.... Before I do tho here is background on me, my parents were missionaries in the bush in Ethiopia and I have been over seas in a few third world countries. Growing up there was more than one year when all we got for Christmas was an orange and we thought we were lucky. My folks got food stamps often while raising 8 kids with my dad in endless grad schools and pastoring starter churches. As a young adult on my own I have live in poverty and in some pretty scary places while working my way through what seemed like never ending college. My grandparents were adults during the great depression and my mother's parents, who live in OK could tell stories that would make the hair stand up on the back of your head.

 

Now to my point and one of the reasons why I view 250,000 as the breaking point between being really wealthy and upper middle class. When our son was 20 months old he had a series of night terrors over 3 weeks which began a regression in him. Between ages 24 months and 30 he made a rapid nose dive from being an obviously gifted baby, pecking tunes out on the piano, speaking and running at 5 months, etc... to be severely Autistic, what he had was something called LKSv that present as autistic but is treatable medicaly but that is for another discussion.

 

At that time the therapy that worked for kids on the spectrum was ABA Applied Behavior Analysis or Lovaas. To really do Lovaas right the bill would be around 80 to 100,000. a year. It was pretty standard then and even now that once an insurance companies see the dx Autism they stop paying for therapy. Before the formal dx we had speech and OT paid by insurance after no payment. At that time dh was making 30 to 35,000 a year. JFS in IL knew me then and how we met was at a support group for parents with kids on the spectrum.

 

Now it just so happened that Speaker Hastert was our congressman and that some one in my church knew him personally and was a big player in IL and national politics. Once Hastert heard about my kids he wanted to meet me and from there CAN, and for awhile I, was able to lobby in Washington. Through CAN, Cure Autism Now, I met families all over the united states in all kinds of financial states. I met high paid DC lawyers making 250,000 a year but spending 100,000 on Lovaas. I met premier scientist in the medical field who had pantens on medical equipment making close to 250,000 but spending again 100,000 for Lovaas plus money to see other docs to treat the autism his son had. They were lucky in that they had the funds to pay for needed treatment. I also met families who could not deal with their child with autism and after a few years of Lovaas and little to no improvement had to place the child in a home and so out of their pocket came the money to pay for placement in a place where they would not have to worry that their mute child would be sexually abused. I knew families who saved most of their income for when they died so that their adult son or daughter with Autism could be placed in a safe place.

 

This past summer one way I fed my kids was to go to local food pantries and stand in line. It was humiliating at first but it was do that or default on our mortgage that had adjusted up on our 550 sq foot, 1 bath, 2 bedroom, fixer upper house. If I were to compare our income to 250,000 I would think Wow that is wealthy, stinking rich, what we could do with...... Why on earth am I standing in food lines while some one, some where is eating way better than we are, living in a much nicer house, driving a car younger than 20! I could get really angry, envious, think they should pay more taxes or...... However I then thought of the folks I knew making 250,000 paying close to 150,000 a year between Lovaas and Dr. Chez or another MD to save their son or daughter and remember hearing that they had done the same after selling every thing they had.

 

I also talked on the phone or met folks to strategize how to get a bill through congress who made 7 figures and they had no worries financially but would have given all of those 7 figures to heal their son or daughter and no matter how much money they threw at Lovaas or.... nothing helped. Bottom line is I ended up more wealthy than all of those folks, and God only knows why because I am no better, but my son responded to medical treatment, was able to tolerate the meds and today could not be dx as Autistic. My sons have their health we are wealthier than some multimillionaires I know and some folks who made 250,000 a year living a higher life style than we ever have and that is humbling. I am eternally grateful but sometimes I wonder why........

 

I often think of this saying, comparison is the death of contentment. Money can be lost in a day like we have seen in the last couple of weeks or it can be lost through and unforeseen tragedy like Autism or some other illness not covered by insurance or it can be lost...... I suppose that the ideal, living in a small town in the middle of nowhere making 250,000 a year is wealthy as long as there is no other mitigating circumstance that sucks the wealth out of the 250,000. Those of you making 24, 30, 50,000 a year may be wealthier than the folks making 250,000 who just learned that their two year old is severely autistic. I know I was even standing in line once or twice a week at a food pantry this summer.

[Michelle My Bell]

Um Yeah! Where I live anyway!!!

 

Michelle

[Rhondabee]

Can you guys not see by now that you all are dealing with two different definitions of wealth?

 

One definition is relative, and loosely paraphrased as: "Able to buy whatever you (I) want without too much thought."

 

The other is: "Not needing to work, because your accumulated assets are earning you enough money without your continuing efforts - and still, you are able to buy whatever you want without too much thought."

 

So, by the first definition, $250k is (for most people) "wealthy", even though that wage-earner still has to go out and earn that wage every day.

 

But it would really take years of saving the majority of that $250k in order to build an accumulation of assets that would pay you $250k/year even after you quit working - and it would only be *after* that lump sum was accumulated that the person would truly be "wealthy" if you consider the second definition.

 

Personally, I come down on the side of "if it all goes away if you can't get to work, then it isn't wealth". Not that I can't understand calling certain working-class people "wealthy". I'm sure I have, and will continue to do so - but only in the relative sense of the word.

 

=)

Rhonda

[PiCO]

Is there really such a thing as 'good debt'. My dh and I have always viewed debt as undesirable, even bad, although sometimes unavoidable. Our dd's are our dd's. No wonder they want to avoid debt at all costs.

 

Janet

 

I believe certain business investments are good debt. For example, borrowing money to purchase a building in which to run a business. This might enable you to run a more efficient or more profitable business, thus paying for the debt service with a little extra left over. And then in the end you have a building.

[Zelda]

Yes, that's just it. 250K is wealth no matter where you live. It is that number that may enable you to live where you are. I just keep shaking my head at this thread. Why is this so difficult to acknowledge I wonder?

 

I don't believe that wealth is that subjective. We may not want to see ourselves as "wealthy" because of connotations, but that doesn't change the math.

 

Money is simply "freedom" to me. The more you have, the freer you are to make choices in life. Yes, they are simply choices. Some have them, and many do not.

 

I just think that anyone who doesn't think that a quarter of a million dollars isn't wealthy just isn't thinking this through. And, it just saddens me for those who really struggle through life. How do you suppose it appears to those looking from the bottom up at those that make that kind of money, and don't think they're wealthy?!?

 

Sorry, I'm not entirely sure why this thread seems so dreadfully sad to me. It just does.

 

Kim

 

So is that how we're going to determine what wealth actually means? What people on the bottom consider wealthy? Should that also be where we go to determine what everything means. Go to the least educated to decide what it means to be educated? Find the dirtiest house and use that as a measure of what's clean by comparison?

 

I have many relatives living on about $450/year (in the Third World). To them, 5x that would be wealthy. But it wouldn't be to us. So, yes, it is relative to other factors and living comfortably is not the same as being wealthy.

[LizzyBee]

I suppose some people have a different definition of "wealthy" -- to me, "wealthy" means NOT having to work to maintain a comfortable living.

 

I've always heard that called "independently wealthy," which is like a subcategory of wealthy. :001_smile:

[Alaska Mom]

I find this amusing since you are posting from one of the biggest welfare states in the US. Where has anyone one said 250k should be the limit to what a business makes, small or large? I'm a Fair Tax fan, so you will get no debate from me that taxes are no fun, but please... 250k in Alaska. You would be living high on the hog. Wealth does not equal bad. Spreading the wealth around if don't w/o force is good. I don't love socialist systems, but I also think pure capitalism is any better. The question we have to ask it how can we help others to help themselves w/o taring each other down?

 

Where has anyone said this? How about looking at the history of any socialist economy. That says it pretty loud and clear to me. And that's what the REAL debate is about, or should be.

 

I fail to see your logic with respect to Alaska. And BTW, Alaska is NOT the highest welfare state when you look at the revenues produced by this state. Alaska is simply a state that does a better job taking care of IT'S OWN (thank you very much free enterprise and Sarah Palin) than do most states who require the FEDERAL government to take care of them.

 

And the "w/o force" statement, now THAT'S amusing, almost.

[Holly IN]

Firmly middle class....Like Joe the plumber....he earned this by his own right...He has his own company which he started up on his own. He built his company from the ground up.

 

So even by Third World standards...$20,000 a year would be wealthy. Here in the US nope! It is not wealthy. My question is why is wealth a bad thing? I read the book "The Millionare next door". Alot of wealthy people do not spend money that other people think they do. They do alot of thinking over things about buying. Alot of them only have 1 tv. We only have 1 tv in our house but we are not wealthy at all. We are middle class (lower). According to Obama we make too much because we are over $42,000. We are under 60,000 though. I highly recommend all to read "The Millionare next door". It is a big eye opener. It really opened my eyes on what we considered wealthy are average Joes like us. They do not live like what Hollywood portrays them as.

 

I am tired of people trying to make others feel guilty for earning money through hard hard work like Joe the plumber. 200,000 is comfortable living not wealthy.

 

Wealthy is a whole other category. It all depends on the POV. Remember there is a difference between Rich and Wealthy. Wealthy is a whole other ball of wax. Rich is entirely different category.

 

I am firm on 200,000 is middle class. Not weath.

 

Holly

[Scarlett]

Firmly middle class....Like Joe the plumber....he earned this by his own right...He has his own company which he started up on his own. He built his company from the ground up. Holly

 

Joe the Plumber? He doesn't own the company yet. He said he was thinking about buying it. And it GROSSES about $250-280K a year. He wouldn't even be in the category we are discussing.

[HRAAB]

It is not wealthy. Perhaps from the outside looking in, but it really isn't. It's a comfortable, luxurious existence. Perhaps year after year of a strong six figure income one could amass wealth. Wealth is not an accumulation of things, stuff. That really is meaningless. It's about security and all that entails. The ability to sleep knowing insurance is covered, mortgage is (or someday will be) paid in full, kids' college education is funded, and retirement is a possibility without the expectation social security will cover any of it. These are all examples of what wealth accomplishes, but takes years to accomplish. Unless you're living with your parents hoarding away money.

To say $250,000 is wealthy and ridicule those who disagree is blatantly wrong. And naive.

 

I just can't put comfortable and luxurious together in the same sentence. My couch is comfortable, 10 years old, a few odd stains, but comfortable. The $5,000. + leather couch is luxurious for me. For someone else a $15,000. couch is luxurious.

 

My insurance is covered, our mortgage is paid off, and retirement (up until very recently) looked good. It's still not too bad since we didn't have everything in the market. Of course, what I consider a comfortable retirement might not be comfortable for someone else. My children will go to college, not because we've funded it 100%, but because they know how to work and save and have a lot of determination. We have been working at it from some time now. Dh is 50, I'm 48. I moved out at 18, dh moved out at 21 (he stayed home for college because he could save, I was more hard headed). So I guess according to your definition of wealthy, we are there. And we did this with never earning more than $50,000. annually.

 

I'm not a fool. Of course we're not wealthy. But from where I'm at and with what we have accomplished, and looking at what could be accomplished with $250,000. in a much, much shorter period of time, I'll have to say I guess I'm naive because it is wealthy to me.

 

I am not wrong. Then again, I don't think you're wrong either. Maybe naive. ;) Or could it be we have very, very different definitions of being wealthy?

 

And again, I bear no resentment against anyone who makes that kind of money. Our economy needs you. You employ people. No, I don't think you should be taxed more. No, I don't think you owe me anything. We really like doing it ourselves, anyway. It's a pride issue I need to work on. And I'll say it again, being wealthy isn't immoral or sinful.

 

I wouldn't want to change places with someone who makes that much money, beause I value our family time too much. I see how much people work to make that kind of living. I value the fact that my dh is home in the evenings and on weekends. I value the fact that when he's home, his mind is fully here at home and not worrying about issues at work. There's enough stress with what he does, I don't care for anymore. It wouldn't be worth it for $100,000. even. Value systems can differ; that doesn't mean one is better than another.

 

Janet

[Renee in NC]

Joe the Plumber? He doesn't own the company yet. He said he was thinking about buying it. And it GROSSES about $250-280K a year. He wouldn't even be in the category we are discussing.

 

I was thinking the same thing.

[JennifersLost]

Wealth is not an accumulation of things, stuff. That really is meaningless. It's about security and all that entails. The ability to sleep knowing insurance is covered, mortgage is (or someday will be) paid in full, kids' college education is funded, and retirement is a possibility without the expectation social security will cover any of it. These are all examples of what wealth accomplishes, but takes years to accomplish. Unless you're living with your parents hoarding away money.

To say $250,000 is wealthy and ridicule those who disagree is blatantly wrong. And naive.

 

 

I understand what you're saying, but I have to laugh, too. We're accomplishing all of that on roughly $40,000 a year (it varies wildly). The trick is to try out all your different possible incomes and different possible living arrangements and locations. When we earned around $150 - 200,000 a year in California we were totally poor without a chance of paying off our mortgage let alone having one cent for retirement or college.

 

Here in BC in our small town we can afford everything. I guess that makes us wealthy, eh?

[LizzyBee]

My question is why is wealth a bad thing?

 

I am tired of people trying to make others feel guilty for earning money through hard hard work like Joe the plumber.

 

This is a long thread, so I may have forgotten some posts. But honestly, I don't remember anyone saying that wealth is a bad thing or that someone who works hard is not entitled to the fruits of his/her labor.

[Colleen]

Is there really such a thing as 'good debt'.

 

Of course there's such a thing as "good" debt. Owning a business would be nary impossible without incurring debt. The key is doing so with financial acumen.

[Holly IN]

Ok I must have heard the debate wrong...:confused: Joe the plumber has his own business...this was all over the news a couple days ago about Joe the plumber questioning Obama about spreading the wealth around. Or am I missing something?

 

:001_huh::001_huh::001_huh:

Holly

[HRAAB]

I believe certain business investments are good debt. For example, borrowing money to purchase a building in which to run a business. This might enable you to run a more efficient or more profitable business, thus paying for the debt service with a little extra left over. And then in the end you have a building.

 

You're right. I hadn't gone that far in my thinking. I was thinking of the debt we see so much of right now: credit cards maxed out, unaffordable mortgages, etc.

 

Janet

[HRAAB]

 

Of course there's such a thing as "good" debt. Owning a business would be nary impossible without incurring debt. The key is doing so with financial acumen.

 

Someone else just pointed this out to me. You're absolutely right about business owners.

 

Janet