WWYD - possibly creepy guy

[Renthead Mommy]

Just a quick update - I am at work and don't have the time to reply individually, but thank you all for your input.  For those of you who have been hurt in the past by being too trusting, I am sorry and hope you can find healing.

 

I don't think I am naive.  I have watched enough crime shows to know the ugliness that is out there.   :crying:   Even though it has never personally touched my life.  Someone mentioned that churches/church people are often taken advantage of.  And I realize that.  With monetary things, I don't think it matters so much.  With my daughters safety, that's a whole different story.

 

We are dealing with the situation and above all I am going to do what I think best protects my daughter, which at this point would be quitting or having me there with her.  I honestly didn't think that this guy was dangerous.  I have talked with him several times after church and he seems (seemed?) harmless, but I guess you never can know.  I would rather be safe.

 

Maybe he is "creepier" than I thought.  When I went with her yesterday, he didn't drop by.  Although he might have been gone.  I asked my husband and he clarified for me that "Steve" is paying minimal rent so he must be making some money somewhere.

 

DD has a very variable schedule.  Basically all she needs to do is make sure that the building is clean for Sundays and for Wednesdays and any special events.  She sometimes cleans right after services or she waits half a week and cleans right before, depending on what else she has going on.  So, he is definitely watching for her and comes over whenever she is there.  Which sounds really creepy to me when I see it in writing.  Although, he just might hang around the church a lot.  His cabin is kinda tiny and he might feel like the church house is "open property."

 

I checked the doors and at this point there is definitely no way to lock them.  Although I am sure that can be fixed.  But I still would not be really comfortable with her going to and from the building.

 

So, anyhow, thanks for all your input.  Like I said, I think we are dealing with things, but it is good to hear everyone's input.

 

I am going to suggest locks on the doors and a sign closed for cleaning...that sounds like a good idea in general even if it is not my DD that is doing the cleaning.

 

Locking doors and a closed sign are good.  But are you actually going to TELL someone in charge what is going on?  

[cintinative]

 

Maybe he is "creepier" than I thought.  When I went with her yesterday, he didn't drop by.  Although he might have been gone.  I asked my husband and he clarified for me that "Steve" is paying minimal rent so he must be making some money somewhere.

 

DD has a very variable schedule.  Basically all she needs to do is make sure that the building is clean for Sundays and for Wednesdays and any special events.  She sometimes cleans right after services or she waits half a week and cleans right before, depending on what else she has going on.  So, he is definitely watching for her and comes over whenever she is there.  Which sounds really creepy to me when I see it in writing.  Although, he just might hang around the church a lot.  His cabin is kinda tiny and he might feel like the church house is "open property."

 

He is watching her. That in and of itself should send off lots of red flags. She needs an escort into and out of the building and she needs a locked building. 

 

My experience in college was someone who was socially awkward at first morphed into full on mental illness, stalking and threats, then protective orders and fear on my part (and for my friend who he threatened). The person was barred from campus and still returned to seek her. 

 

As I look at it-- If you are both wrong--all you risk is a part time job. If you are right, and he is a threat, you risk a lot more.    

[AnthemLights]

Locking doors and a closed sign are good.  But are you actually going to TELL someone in charge what is going on?  

Yes, I will.  That's what I meant by the last line of the update.  I am going to talk to the pastor about the whole situation.  The locks and sign would have to go through him, which I don't think - actually, I should say, I know - will be a problem at all.  :001_smile:

[StephanieZ]

FWIW, this is the story that screams in my head when I read this OP. 

 

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=16052

 

A lone employee of the vet hospital arrived earlier than other staff, and she was stalked, raped, and murdered at the clinic while there alone. 

 

Security measures are critical. This situation of a lone female alone in a building just scream DANGER DANGER DANGER to me. 

 

Whether or not the man in the OP is a risk, the entire situation is a risk. I would not allow it a single time. If I wanted my child to continue to serve/work in this manner, I'd only permit it if I or another adult were available to hang out during her entire shift. I'd sit and play on my phone or read a book or even help with a volunteer church task. But, I'd be there, with my phone in my hand, the entire time. Period. 

 

And, personally, I'd question the judgment of the church for allowing this situation to exist. They need to correct their procedures. If the church must remain unlocked at all times, then no one should be there alone -- at least not at the church's request. Ever. Personally, even if the facility were locked, I wouldn't allow my underage child to go there alone. 

[JustEm]

Are there times during the week that other people are at the building aside from when the building should already be cleaned? Like office hours for someone or something. If it can be arranged where your dd is doing the cleaning when someone else is there I see no reason for her to have to quit. Or possibly they could have 2 people doing the cleaning. In that case it would be less hours and pay but she still would have a job she enjoys.

[AnthemLights]

Are there times during the week that other people are at the building aside from when the building should already be cleaned? Like office hours for someone or something. If it can be arranged where your dd is doing the cleaning when someone else is there I see no reason for her to have to quit. Or possibly they could have 2 people doing the cleaning. In that case it would be less hours and pay but she still would have a job she enjoys.

 

There are no administrative offices in the building.  Pastor's study is at his home.  Clerical work is also done off-site.  Two people cleaning would be a good solution, I think.  (In conjunction with some of the other measures suggested.)  Yes she would have to split the cost, but maybe better than quitting?

[gardenmom5]

His cabin is kinda tiny and he might feel like the church house is "open property."

 

if he really feels like the "church house is open property" so he has a larger space in which to wander - I'd be very concerned.

 

at this point - locks are nice, but no guarantee of safety as he could be in the church before she came and then she'd lock them with him already inside?  unless it is locked at all times, and only authorized person's have a key, it's not safe.   she would be in the open going to and coming from her car - again, not a safe position.

she should never be alone there - sorry, that's just the way the ball bounces.  for her own growth, it would be good for her to firmly tell him to leave her alone (with you or your dh as back-up.).

 

I was about this age when I had a very socially awkward (and probably missing more than a few screws) 30 something giving me rides a few times.  I never felt fear, though I did find him very weird.  (so far as I know, he was harmless/mentally ill/low-IQ.)

 

our church policy is door is locked.  women do not go into it by themselves.  if they teach an early morning class (we have a five-days a week early morning seminary class for teens) - a designated male is there to make sure the building is safe (people have been  known to break-in overnight).  there are always at least two women.  (safety in numbers).  that's just scratching the surface of safety protocols.

 

OP, your church has no safety protocols - and they need to implement some asap.  if your pastor doesn't do something proactive or brushes off your concerns - I seriously would be looking for another church.   while the shepherd is admonished to seek after the one, they are ALSO admonished to make sure the other 99 are safe.

 

 

eta: the fact he asks her to play piano, leaves when your ds or you are there with her - is a big flag. (if he were just lonely - he'd be talking to you or your ds.  lonely people will talk to whomever is there.)  she's uncomfortable - only you know how uncomfortable.  but this is a great opportunity for her to learn to listen to her gut.  it's warning her.

Edited August 4, 2016 by gardenmom5

[SparklyUnicorn]

Could be he is just enjoying the company, but really I wouldn't feel comfortable with that either. 

[Happy2BaMom]

Creepy. 

 

IMHO, he is either grooming her or "watching" her. Either way, it's predatory. 

 

He can find plenty of companionship, male and female, in many, many other places. From people who are not underage. From people who would be more his peers. 

 

I had a friend who was raped at 14 by someone in her church, someone who was 'known'. So that makes me both paranoid and cynical. So I personally would not let my daughter be there alone. I'd be curious to see how long this guy kept coming in to say 'hi' if dad or mom started showing up with dd every single time. 

[gardenmom5]

Could be he is just enjoying the company, but really I wouldn't feel comfortable with that either. 

 

if it was "just the company" - why would he leave if her brother or mother were there?  he only stays when she's there by herself.  THAT is a big flag.

[cintinative]

if it was "just the company" - why would he leave if her brother or mother were there?  he only stays when she's there by herself.  THAT is a big flag.

:iagree:   I know my past experience is definitely flavoring the way I look at this, but even IF he is harmless, his behavior does not appear to be so.  OP I want to apologize if I seem harsh on this. It is very hard to put aside that experience I had in the past. God so clearly warned me about the person. If I had not listened, I am not sure what would have happened.  I am so grateful your daughter felt safe telling you and that you are acting on it.  

[Renthead Mommy]

I keep thinking about this open, unlocked building.  How is that even possible?  How does their insurance even allow that?  I get churches used to be sanctuaries for people in need and all left unlocked for people to come in when needed or pray or whatever whenever, but that was through history and before the days of liablity insurance and property insurance and well so many more crazy people in general. 

 

If that place is open all the time, anyone could come in anytime and be waiting for anyone, not just the 16yo.  

 

I keep thinking back to that mom who taught early morning yoga and came in at 5am and someone was there and murdered her.  Now that may have been a planned murder (I don't remember, thinking it had something to do with the husband)  but still!  And this was a locked building.

[tampamommy]

"TACA" = Target, Approach, Converse, Attack - this is the protocol used by most attackers. This guy is at the Converse stage. Scary, scary. I would immediately get your daughter out of the situation permanently and bring this to the attention of the church leadership. I sent you a private email with more details based on my professional experience. He is demonstrating very abnormal behavior, no matter what the cause.

 

Always listen to your instincts! Don't make excuses for them, worried that you will hurt someone's feelings. Female victims of attacks almost always had creepy/danger instincts at some point prior to their attack that they ignored.

 

Be safe, everyone. :)

 

 

[AnthemLights]

:iagree:   I know my past experience is definitely flavoring the way I look at this, but even IF he is harmless, his behavior does not appear to be so.  OP I want to apologize if I seem harsh on this. It is very hard to put aside that experience I had in the past. God so clearly warned me about the person. If I had not listened, I am not sure what would have happened.  I am so grateful your daughter felt safe telling you and that you are acting on it.  

 

No worries....I do not feel like anyone is coming across as harsh.  Just concerned, which is sweet and well-intentioned.  We are definitely not going to let the situation slide...I am a firm believer in listening to your gut.   :001_smile:

[Daria]

No, definitely no locks. The doors are those metal ones (industrial?) with crash bars.

 

The two times ds went along, he stopped in but didn't stay as long as previous times and didn't ask her to play the piano.

 

If I went along, I think he would sit down and talk. Brew some coffee maybe. He really does seem kind of lonely, more than anything else.

Every school I have worked at has those crash bars, and the doors can always be locked so that you can't access them from the outside. There is a little hole you stick a pin in to change it. When you do that, the bar pops out and then you can only open from the inside.

 

I would have you, your husband, or the pastor or someone else in a position of authority talk to him and say "I am sure you mean no harm, but we are teaching our daughter to be vigilant for her own safety, and part of that is making sure that she isn't in an enclosed space alone with an adult male. She feels uncomfortable breaking that rule, and we feel uncomfortable loosening that rule while she is so young. I am asking you to respect our wishes and not enter the church when she is there alone."

 

Then if he responds in a way that you feel is decent, maybe invite him to lunch with your whole family or something to get to know him better, but still have her lock the door. If he responds in a way that makes you uncomfortable then have her stop.

[AnthemLights]

Every school I have worked at has those crash bars, and the doors can always be locked so that you can't access them from the outside. There is a little hole you stick a pin in to change it. When you do that, the bar pops out and then you can only open from the inside.

 

I would have you, your husband, or the pastor or someone else in a position of authority talk to him and say "I am sure you mean no harm, but we are teaching our daughter to be vigilant for her own safety, and part of that is making sure that she isn't in an enclosed space alone with an adult male. She feels uncomfortable breaking that rule, and we feel uncomfortable loosening that rule while she is so young. I am asking you to respect our wishes and not enter the church when she is there alone."

 

Then if he responds in a way that you feel is decent, maybe invite him to lunch with your whole family or something to get to know him better, but still have her lock the door. If he responds in a way that makes you uncomfortable then have her stop.

I watched the video that someone posted upthread and didn't see anything like that on the church doors, but I can look again.   I tend to agree with gardenmom, though, that at his point locks are no guarantee of safety.

 

I felt uncomfortable with the situation to start with and after reading everyone's thoughts on the situation, I feel even more strongly that I can't let this continue.  

[ktgrok]

This. Maybe it's because I don't believe every guy on the planet is a horny deviant on the verge of becoming a sexual predator, but it sounds to me like the guy is just lonely and probably mentally ill. The pastor should definitely talk to him since he's making the girl uncomfortable, but jeez people, put down the pitchforks. If the guy was a woman it would be a non-issue for most people.

 

Except when there is a guy with her, he doesn't stay to hang around and talk. Only when she's alone. I'm sorry, that's a red flag.  It doesn't mean he's a predator, but it IS a sign of a POSSIBLE predator. 

 

Also, mental illness can be a factor in sexual assault, so one doesn't mean the other isn't possible. 

 

Either way, we don't have girls in a position where they are alone in a vulnerable situation with a man twice their age, who is creeping them out. No one is saying to arrest the guy or put him in jail. They are saying this is a potential risk, and to put a stop to the risk. 

 

Are you claiming there is no risk to a homeless man of unknown mental status, who makes a girl feel creeped out, trying to get alone time with said girl? That the situation should be ignored?

[Mergath]

Except when there is a guy with her, he doesn't stay to hang around and talk. Only when she's alone. I'm sorry, that's a red flag. It doesn't mean he's a predator, but it IS a sign of a POSSIBLE predator.

 

Also, mental illness can be a factor in sexual assault, so one doesn't mean the other isn't possible.

 

Either way, we don't have girls in a position where they are alone in a vulnerable situation with a man twice their age, who is creeping them out. No one is saying to arrest the guy or put him in jail. They are saying this is a potential risk, and to put a stop to the risk.

 

Are you claiming there is no risk to a homeless man of unknown mental status, who makes a girl feel creeped out, trying to get alone time with said girl? That the situation should be ignored?

Of course not. I never said that, and you'll see if you actually read my posts that I said the OP should do whatever she feels is necessary to keep her dd safe. The pastor should definitely talk to the guy and tell him he's making her uncomfortable. (Something else I already said in this thread.)

 

But the people who feel the church should kick the guy out, or who claimed he's obviously a predator and the police should be notified, well, let's just say they aren't showing a lot of compassion for a homeless, possibly mentally ill man. It's funny how Christian love only seems to apply to those who are easy to love. Everyone else can just gtfo.

[ktgrok]

Of course not. I never said that, and you'll see if you actually read my posts that I said the OP should do whatever she feels is necessary to keep her dd safe. The pastor should definitely talk to the guy and tell him he's making her uncomfortable. (Something else I already said in this thread.)

 

But the people who feel the church should kick the guy out, or who claimed he's obviously a predator and the police should be notified, well, let's just say they aren't showing a lot of compassion for a homeless, possibly mentally ill man. It's funny how Christian love only seems to apply to those who are easy to love. Everyone else can just gtfo.

 

No, people said the pastor should kick him out if he continues the behavior after being told to stop. Which is reasonable. And to contact to the police to find out IF he' has a record. As a background check, not to turn him in. 

[heartlikealion]

Of course not. I never said that, and you'll see if you actually read my posts that I said the OP should do whatever she feels is necessary to keep her dd safe. The pastor should definitely talk to the guy and tell him he's making her uncomfortable. (Something else I already said in this thread.)

 

But the people who feel the church should kick the guy out, or who claimed he's obviously a predator and the police should be notified, well, let's just say they aren't showing a lot of compassion for a homeless, possibly mentally ill man. It's funny how Christian love only seems to apply to those who are easy to love. Everyone else can just gtfo.

 

Now you sound like you're doing what you are upset with others doing... putting words into people's mouths or ascribing links that may or may not be there (the posters must be Christian. Hateful Christians).

 

Personally I think it's irresponsible of the church if they didn't background check the guy/find out more about him (not sure we got an answer on that). I would urge the ones in charge to do that whether it was a temple or mosque or non religious school, etc. Doesn't matter. Just seems like you should know who the heck you're renting to is someone you want lurking around your property and/or friends/clients/patrons/whatever. I don't call landlords uncompassionate for routine background checks.

 

Calling the cops might have been a "cop out" (heh) for shooing him in a way that didn't leave it up to the OP's family, not necessarily attributing a crime to him. But my initial response when I read that was it may be overboard to involve the cops.

 

Not directed at anyone in particular... back to the locks. I don't think it's totally strange for a church to not be locked, but I think it's strange for it to not have locks. I mean, what if they need to use it as a safe zone during a storm or such? Securing doors seems important for one reason or another.

[Katy]

Of course not. I never said that, and you'll see if you actually read my posts that I said the OP should do whatever she feels is necessary to keep her dd safe. The pastor should definitely talk to the guy and tell him he's making her uncomfortable. (Something else I already said in this thread.)

 

But the people who feel the church should kick the guy out, or who claimed he's obviously a predator and the police should be notified, well, let's just say they aren't showing a lot of compassion for a homeless, possibly mentally ill man. It's funny how Christian love only seems to apply to those who are easy to love. Everyone else can just gtfo.

 

I'm the one who suggested contacting the police, and I'm Christian. I'm also the daughter of a police chief, with many cops in the family.  I was also a little girl who had something creepy happen with a man trying to kidnap me when I was young.  It was strange and awkward and I wasn't sure we should call the police (I was not in my hometown, and what was going on was weird but not illegal, and it stopped when a police car drove by), but we decided to do so. The police thanked us for contacting them, and told my mother it sounded like the man was trying to kidnap me. A man fitting the same description with the same vehicle attempted to kidnap two girls a few days later right in front of their school.  By the grace of God and a few martial arts classes, those girls escaped too.  On this man's third attempt, he was arrested.  The police might not have been on such high alert if they hadn't had two incidents from a man with the same vehicle and description that same week.

 

Believe me, getting called into a suspicious situation before a crime happens is the kind of call police want to take.  If the man is completely innocent and just has bad social skills, they can suss that out.  But if not, if he has a criminal history, notifying them that something suspicious is going on will prevent an attack.

 

There is nothing un-Christ-like about providing safe boundaries for our children.  There is nothing un-Christ-like about letting police know there is something sort of shady going on.  And this is shady.  He is only hanging around when an underage girl is alone.  He is exhibiting grooming behaviors in a very isolated area.  There is nothing wrong with prioritizing her safety over being polite.  Police aren't evil (at least not most).  We're not talking about a strange situation with a minority.  We're talking about specific grooming behavior of a teenage girl by a man in his thirties.  Calling police will do absolutely nothing except helping the girl to trust her own instincts if he's innocent.  He's not going to get thrown in jail for being insensitive.  But if police do find a history and arrest him, then they needed to be told.  If police do find a history and talk to him, he'll know he hasn't found an easy victim here and he will move on to a girl with a less vigilant family.

 

I know you have had many issues with hypocritical Christians, and I wish I could tell you there aren't serious problems with hypocrites.  We both know that they are. But I am not being hypocritical in this situation.  I am simply more concerned with her safety than I am with offending a man who, at the very least, is acting in a way that needs correction.  And there is nothing wrong with that.

[Mergath]

I'm the one who suggested contacting the police, and I'm Christian. I'm also the daughter of a police chief, with many cops in the family. I was also a little girl who had something creepy happen with a man trying to kidnap me when I was young. It was strange and awkward and I wasn't sure we should call the police (I was not in my hometown, and what was going on was weird but not illegal, and it stopped when a police car drove by), but we decided to do so. The police thanked us for contacting them, and told my mother it sounded like the man was trying to kidnap me. A man fitting the same description with the same vehicle attempted to kidnap two girls a few days later right in front of their school. By the grace of God and a few martial arts classes, those girls escaped too. On this man's third attempt, he was arrested. The police might not have been on such high alert if they hadn't had two incidents from a man with the same vehicle and description that same week.

 

Believe me, getting called into a suspicious situation before a crime happens is the kind of call police want to take. If the man is completely innocent and just has bad social skills, they can suss that out. But if not, if he has a criminal history, notifying them that something suspicious is going on will prevent an attack.

 

There is nothing un-Christ-like about providing safe boundaries for our children. There is nothing un-Christ-like about letting police know there is something sort of shady going on. And this is shady. He is only hanging around when an underage girl is alone. He is exhibiting grooming behaviors in a very isolated area. There is nothing wrong with prioritizing her safety over being polite. Police aren't evil (at least not most). We're not talking about a strange situation with a minority. We're talking about specific grooming behavior of a teenage girl by a man in his thirties. Calling police will do absolutely nothing except helping the girl to trust her own instincts if he's innocent. He's not going to get thrown in jail for being insensitive. But if police do find a history and arrest him, then they needed to be told. If police do find a history and talk to him, he'll know he hasn't found an easy victim here and he will move on to a girl with a less vigilant family.

 

I know you have had many issues with hypocritical Christians, and I wish I could tell you there aren't serious problems with hypocrites. We both know that they are. But I am not being hypocritical in this situation. I am simply more concerned with her safety than I am with offending a man who, at the very least, is acting in a way that needs correction. And there is nothing wrong with that.

It's possible to ensure the girl's safety and treat the man with kindness. And I do think it's unkind to ascribe criminal intent to a man when a woman doing exactly the same thing wouldn't even trip someone's radar. I'm totally on board with locking the doors and talking to the pastor just to be safe. But seriously, talking to someone doesn't make a person a criminal. And maybe he didn't come out when there were more people because he's shy. Maybe he was off at a job interview. Maybe he was taking a nap. People here are so quick to judge men and act like they're all just waiting for their chance to rape someone. It makes me glad I don't have any boys.

[38carrots]

What I find the most troublesome and concerning that the church officials seem not to have any problem with the situation. They must know she's cleaning the space and the loner guy is there? It is possible he has no ill intentions(maybe mental health issue, maybe developmental delays, maybe he is an awkward guy who doesn't know any better, whatever), HOWEVER, the church is not being proactive and this is how abuse ends up being glossed over. *THIS* is the troubling part. Shudder.

[Katy]

It's possible to ensure the girl's safety and treat the man with kindness. And I do think it's unkind to ascribe criminal intent to a man when a woman doing exactly the same thing wouldn't even trip someone's radar. I'm totally on board with locking the doors and talking to the pastor just to be safe. But seriously, talking to someone doesn't make a person a criminal. And maybe he didn't come out when there were more people because he's shy. Maybe he was off at a job interview. Maybe he was taking a nap. People here are so quick to judge men and act like they're all just waiting for their chance to rape someone. It makes me glad I don't have any boys.

 

You can talk to police and still be kind, they are not mutually exclusive.   There is a 99% chance that if this man has a criminal history, the police know about him already.  And there is a 99% chance that if he has no criminal history, he will never know the police were consulted.

 

Did you read the same descriptions I did?  He wasn't away at a job interview, he simply doesn't stay around if he can't be there alone with her.  That's not shyness, it's wrong.  More than anything, it is the child feeling creeped out when alone with someone in an isolated area that is bothersome.  Frankly, if she felt creeped out by a woman who did the exact same thing, my advice would be exactly the same.  It is more rare to get the creeps from a woman, but that doesn't make the fear less valid.

 

Yes, I probably AM more likely to be wary of possible criminal intent than others who didn't grow up hearing stories of women and girls being victimized quite frequently.  But that doesn't mean I'm not also kind.  It doesn't mean I'm a hypocrite.  It just makes me a little more careful than it makes you.

 

Also, I am more ethically comfortable with police than you are in general, judging from previous threads.  And I've had extensive training in abuse and grooming and I'm a mandatory reporter.  So with that in mind, I have zero problems with it at all.  Zero.

 

 

ETA:  "People here are so quick to judge men and act like they're all just waiting for their chance to rape someone"

Most men aren't, but rapists do exist.  Most men are completely innocent, but rape is still quite common. I'm incredulous that you don't think it's a danger, and that I'm leaping to cruel conclusions.  This exact scenario, where a man acts in just this way before attacking a girl is a very common pre-rape scenario.  If you don't know that already, you aren't very well educated on this topic.  Yes, there are horrible stories of false accusation, but there are also horrible stories of legitimate rape. They are real.  And ignoring that fear because you "should be nice" or "should act like a kind Christian" are a HUGE part of the problem.  Your position teaches a girl not to trust herself.  Please, please, think about what you are teaching your daughters about their own fear and trusting their instincts.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Katy

[AnthemLights]

I am not going to get involved in the judging/hypocritical/unloving Christian discussion except for to say that I am going to do whatever makes me and my girl feel safe.  Beyond that, I will try to show as much love/acceptance/respect to the guy as Jesus would have me do.  He is welcome to come over for family dinner or to hang out with my husband, etc  But like others have said, just because I am a Christian doesn't mean that I have to throw common sense or caution to the wind.

 

I called the pastor's wife this evening.  She said that her husband did check into the guys background and that there was nothing really troubling.  The worst thing on his record was a DUI.  She also asked me if anyone had cautioned me about DD working at the church house alone and told me to make sure it doesn't happen.  She didn't think there was a real worry, but definitely better safe than sorry.

 

[ktgrok]

It's possible to ensure the girl's safety and treat the man with kindness. And I do think it's unkind to ascribe criminal intent to a man when a woman doing exactly the same thing wouldn't even trip someone's radar. I'm totally on board with locking the doors and talking to the pastor just to be safe. But seriously, talking to someone doesn't make a person a criminal. And maybe he didn't come out when there were more people because he's shy. Maybe he was off at a job interview. Maybe he was taking a nap. People here are so quick to judge men and act like they're all just waiting for their chance to rape someone. It makes me glad I don't have any boys.

 

I think if a homeless woman was hanging around and acting in odd ways, people would also be concerned. Perhaps not about sexual assault, because statistically that's not as likely with a woman interacting with another woman. 

 

If you honestly think it is normal, not scary behavior for a grown man (who is friends with multiple men in the church according to the OP, so not that socially awkward) to hang around a young girl when she alone and vulnerable, when she's supposed to be working, I think you are naive. No one is asking to lynch the man or drive him out of town. Just recognizing that these are the signs of a predator. If a dog barks and growls at me, he may or may not bite, but it's not rude of me to back the heck away from him. 

[heartlikealion]

I personally do think a woman could set off alarms for people, too. I can't speak for others, but if my son was the one doing the cleaning and told me about some "creepy" woman that would show up when he was alone but not when dd was with him, etc. I would find it a bit odd and start asking questions. I wouldn't want him being alone with this person.

[heartlikealion]

I think if a homeless woman was hanging around and acting in odd ways, people would also be concerned. Perhaps not about sexual assault, because statistically that's not as likely with a woman interacting with another woman. 

 

If you honestly think it is normal, not scary behavior for a grown man (who is friends with multiple men in the church according to the OP, so not that socially awkward) to hang around a young girl when she alone and vulnerable, when she's supposed to be working, I think you are naive. No one is asking to lynch the man or drive him out of town. Just recognizing that these are the signs of a predator. If a dog barks and growls at me, he may or may not bite, but it's not rude of me to back the heck away from him. 

 

I'm not sure. I'm trying to find the quote from Kimmy Schmidt where they talked about the really high percentage of females affiliated with initiating sexual assault (not sure if that's the right word). I don't know if they took into account if it was female with female vs. male with female, though.

[ktgrok]

I'm not sure. I'm trying to find the quote from Kimmy Schmidt where they talked about the really high percentage of females affiliated with initiating sexual assault (not sure if that's the right word). I don't know if they took into account if it was female with female vs. male with female, though.

 

According to this, it doesn't seem so.

 

"96% of people who sexually abuse children are male...."

 

http://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf

[katilac]

  And I do think it's unkind to ascribe criminal intent to a man when a woman doing exactly the same thing wouldn't even trip someone's radar. 

 

Incorrect. 

 

A grown woman who is not a family friend walking over to the church to speak to my teen (daughter or son) while they were working alone, and asking them to play piano and so on, would definitely trip my radar. 

[ktgrok]

Again,the OP said this guy is all buddy buddy with the men in the congregation, so he's not totally social unaware. He's made adult friends. 

 

And it's not wrong to be more wary around a man than a woman, the statistics are that most child abusers are men. 

 

[Mergath]

I'm very alert to religious hypocrisy :) but I get putting a dd's feelings of safety while she does her job ahead of giving an unknown-to-her man the benefit of the doubt about his intentions.

 

It's not up to teen girls to do unsupervised outreach with an adult male. It's her job to clean.

 

She doesn't need to jump to judgements about this man, but she's also under zero obligation to put his feelings of inclusion ahead of her feelings of being safe while she does her job. And she doesn't really need to justify her discomfort either.

 

It's not personal - but the statistical facts are assault is most likely to come at the hands of a man. I wouldn't want to be working alone in an isolated place with a unknown-to-me male regularly dropping in to 'chat'. Besides anything else, she's not there to chat.

 

I am sure the church can provide adults and groups to offer friendship if this man is indeed lonely or mentally ill. But it's not a teen's job to do so unless she feels, and is, comfortable and safe.

I don't think the OP's dd needs to do anything like that. I'm talking about us, here, the people on this forum, hearing about a man acting outside the norm and assuming he's a predator. With so many parents of SN kids here and the high rates of autism, I would have expected more compassion. We're all conditioning ourselves to see predators around every corner, in every bit of social awkwardness or oddness. I refuse to live like that. Edited August 5, 2016 by Mergath

[Mergath]

Incorrect.

 

A grown woman who is not a family friend walking over to the church to speak to my teen (daughter or son) while they were working alone, and asking them to play piano and so on, would definitely trip my radar.

You'd be extremely uncomfortable here then, because chatting with strangers to pass the time is common. If I freaked out every time an adult I don't know made small talk with me or dd I'd need to be permanently sedated.

 

Obviously I'm not going to change anyone's mind or argue them into more compassion though, so I'll just bow out.

[heartlikealion]

According to this, it doesn't seem so.

 

"96% of people who sexually abuse children are male...."

 

http://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf

 

I wasn't talking about children exclusively necessarily. I just can't remember the quote from the show. Besides, I don't know if a teen is filed under children. I think sometimes women get away with more touchy feely gestures, too. Not saying that men aren't still the greater percentage. I had a female boss that used to massage our shoulders as we were working and I never knew what to read into it, if anything, but it made a lot of us uncomfortable and yet I don't know if we had the b@lls to complain.

Edited August 5, 2016 by heartlikealion

[heartlikealion]

Talking to strangers to pass time is probably done somewhere public. A grocery store line, a waiting room, perhaps a bus stop. The bus stop, if on a busy road or near businesses, may not be in isolation. Though some may be and those I would be leery about using. You know I've heard that thing before about don't get on an elevator if your gut says no. And lots of people will do it for fear of being rude. And what do they say? Stop doing things just to be nice. Follow your gut.

[gardenmom5]

You'd be extremely uncomfortable here then, because chatting with strangers to pass the time is common. If I freaked out every time an adult I don't know made small talk with me or dd I'd need to be permanently sedated.

 

Obviously I'm not going to change anyone's mind or argue them into more compassion though, so I'll just bow out.

 

this is NOT about 'chatting with a stranger'  (who may or may not be mentally ill, lonely, questionable judgment, etc.)

this is about a girl *who is being creeped* out by this man specifically.  (who has engaged in questionable behavior with a 16 yr old girl - even if it's  not illegal.   it's scaring her.)

 

do you ever get "uncomfortable feelings" from people or situations?  do you listen to those feelings?  or ignore them?  have you read "protecting the gift"?

 

again - this is NOT about chatting with a stranger.  it is about respecting a 16 yo girl's feelings of discomfort about how this man is seeking to engage with her.

[jelbe5]

I have an adult son with autism. I have worked with the mentally ill and the homeless and with criminals and sex offenders. I believe I have compassion for people. But the situation as described gives me concern. He may not be a predator but the behavior is worrisom . . . the fact that he obviously was aware of the young lady coming and then talking to her when she was there alone but then modifying his behavior when she was not alone gives me pause. If nothing else he needs some social skills training but that is not the responsibility of a 16 year old.

 

I know if my daughters were in that situation and told me they were creeped out I would make sure they were never alone in that situation again. That is not accusing anyone of anything but it is respecting the gut feeling of the young people.

 

ETA - I may be biased as I have personally been the victim of robbery at gunpoint. Since then I am much more alert and vigilent of people and my surroundings. I don't live in fear and I go about my daily life but I learnd a lot from that experience and tend to constantly assess situations. I feel that empowers me to make wise choices and put my safety and the safety of my loved ones first.

Edited August 5, 2016 by jelbe5

[fraidycat]

I don't think the OP's dd needs to do anything like that. I'm talking about us, here, the people on this forum, hearing about a man acting outside the norm and assuming he's a predator. With so many parents of SN kids here and the high rates of autism, I would have expected more compassion. We're all conditioning ourselves to see predators around every corner, in every bit of social awkwardness or oddness. I refuse to live like that.

But this isn't every corner, and every bit of social awkwardness. This is a specific situation where the guy doesn't hang around when the girl has another person with her.

[fraidycat]

Yes! This is so different to the teen in question having a boy her own age come up to her at youth group, or something, and interact awkwardly.

 

I am actually not one to freak out about strange men, lol, because I'm aware that one day my ds will be a 'strange man' to someone, and a lot of strange men are just normal blokes I don't know.

 

But the context of this one - isolation, teen on her own, the age gap, the mans persistence in coming over, making requests of her - it set off my 'no way in Hades' meter.

Yep. Context matters.

 

I've been "groomed" (in hindsight) and stalked by a much older man (a grandparent of a classmate) when I was in high school. He was a regular customer at my place of work.

 

Luckily, my creep-o-meter pinged...eventually. But soon enough. My mom took me to the police. He was charged with stalking and given a restraining order. I don't think he was convicted, but I didn't pay attention - he left me alone, that's all I cared about.

 

I still talk to random men. At airports, grocery stores, at the park, etc. I even take food right into a large crowd of homeless people downtown in the city. I'm not scared of every strange male in my vicinity. I DO listen to my gut, though. And tell my kids to do the same. They don't have to befriend every stranger or known to us person they encounter if it feels wrong to them.

[ktgrok]

I don't think the OP's dd needs to do anything like that. I'm talking about us, here, the people on this forum, hearing about a man acting outside the norm and assuming he's a predator. With so many parents of SN kids here and the high rates of autism, I would have expected more compassion. We're all conditioning ourselves to see predators around every corner, in every bit of social awkwardness or oddness. I refuse to live like that.

 

Again, how is it compassionate to assume there is no problem, allow the man to continue behaviors that are inappropriate, etc? If he IS just perhaps awkward or on the spectrum (although the OP says he has lots of adult men who are his friends in this congregation, so I'm doubting that highly), then it would be MORE compassionate to alert him to how inappropriate his behavior is, so he can learn more appropriate ways to interact. 

 

And if he isn[t just awkward, and is a predator, it wouldn't be very compassionate to allow the daughter to be attacked. 

 

And having been sexually assaulted not once, but twice, and knowing that a LARGE percentage of my friends have been as well, between the ages of 15 and 25, I don't think we are being paranoid to be on high alert about it. When it has happened to you and most of your friends, being aware of the signs isn't paranoid, it's smart. 

 

I'd love to still live in the naive bubble that says men behaving in this kind of way is just nothing, but I don't. 

 

And yeah, the guy that assaulted me (the first time) was a thirty something year old man, married, hanging around a party for college freshmen. He was the brother of the person throwing the party (my drama class teaching assistant), but didn't live there,  and had no reason to be there. There was no one else there his age. Now, as an adult, I can recognize how odd his behavior was, and wish like hell someone else had recognized it back then. Grown men do not hang out with teens, on a regular basis. They don't seek them out for social time. They don't put themselves in isolated situations with them. 

 

Again, if he is just so socially clueless to not know this than the compassionate thing is for someone to tell him, and explain what it can look like, so he doesn't end up in this situation again. But you know, I have a kid on the spectrum, and I am not unaware of the social issues. If he did something like this, I'd want someone to stop him and explain things. 

[ktgrok]

Y

I still talk to random men. At airports, grocery stores, at the park, etc. I even take food right into a large crowd of homeless people downtown in the city. I'm not scared of every strange male in my vicinity. I DO listen to my gut, though. And tell my kids to do the same. They don't have to befriend every stranger or known to us person they encounter if it feels wrong to them.

 

 

Exactly. I am not afraid of men in general. I have male friends. I talk to men all the time, at the store, the bank, wherever. I enjoy the company of men. But when one acts in a way that is KNOWN to be the way that predators also act, you have to take that seriously. Maybe he's not a predator, entirely possible .But ignoring that and finding out later he IS isn't an acceptable option. 

[AnthemLights]

Just a quick clarification....there doesn't seem to be anything at all wrong with this man.  He seems as able-bodied and able-minded as anyone I have ever met.  Rather good looking, definitely charming.  Just, according to him, a man down on his luck who lost everything through no fault of his own.

 

The agreement made with him by our pastor was that he could live in the cabin rent free for two months...long enough for him to get back on his feet.  After that he had to start paying rent or move on.  Like I said earlier, I talked to the pastor's wife last night and she said that he will probably not be there much longer.  He hasn't made much of an effort to find work.  Our pastor is not only a pastor he is also a very well connected, well-respected businessman in town.  He could find a job for anyone, but apparently "Steve" keeps not showing up for job interviews.   :huh:

[AnthemLights]

Exactly. I am not afraid of men in general. I have male friends. I talk to men all the time, at the store, the bank, wherever. I enjoy the company of men. But when one acts in a way that is KNOWN to be the way that predators also act, you have to take that seriously. Maybe he's not a predator, entirely possible .But ignoring that and finding out later he IS isn't an acceptable option. 

:iagree:  And I read back through the responses (and maybe I missed something, forgive me if I did) but the harshest thing anyone said was that it wouldn't be a bad idea to run a background check on this guy.  I don't think that's unreasonable or unloving at all.....just wise.

[Valley Girl]

Just a quick clarification....there doesn't seem to be anything at all wrong with this man.  He seems as able-bodied and able-minded as anyone I have ever met.  Rather good looking, definitely charming.  Just, according to him, a man down on his luck who lost everything through no fault of his own.

 

The agreement made with him by our pastor was that he could live in the cabin rent free for two months...long enough for him to get back on his feet.  After that he had to start paying rent or move on.  Like I said earlier, I talked to the pastor's wife last night and she said that he will probably not be there much longer.  He hasn't made much of an effort to find work.  Our pastor is not only a pastor he is also a very well connected, well-respected businessman in town.  He could find a job for anyone, but apparently "Steve" keeps not showing up for job interviews.   :huh:

 

Especially given the new information, I think you and your daughter have been very wise to listen to what her instincts have been saying. This guy sounds like big-time trouble. Not trying to make you more concerned, but I'd keep a very close eye on things even after he moves on. I would also request a non-official (to start) chat with law enforcement. I don't give a rat's behind if that sounds judgmental or not.

[jelbe5]

Just a quick clarification....there doesn't seem to be anything at all wrong with this man. He seems as able-bodied and able-minded as anyone I have ever met. Rather good looking, definitely charming. Just, according to him, a man down on his luck who lost everything through no fault of his own.

 

The agreement made with him by our pastor was that he could live in the cabin rent free for two months...long enough for him to get back on his feet. After that he had to start paying rent or move on. Like I said earlier, I talked to the pastor's wife last night and she said that he will probably not be there much longer. He hasn't made much of an effort to find work. Our pastor is not only a pastor he is also a very well connected, well-respected businessman in town. He could find a job for anyone, but apparently "Steve" keeps not showing up for job interviews. :huh:

This info, coupled with the fact he has a DUI provides important clues. He is homeless and down on his luck "through no fault of his own" but he is not actively seeking employment (ie spending 6-8 hours a day looking for work). He has at least one DUI on his record. There is a high probability he has driven under the influance more than once - he was only caught one time. So there is possibly a substance abuse problem which might also indicate self-medicating due to untreated mental illness.

 

Homelessness is unfortunate, but it is also another clue. Most people have a family who would be willing to help out. This man may not have any family but we have to consider the possibility that he does and he has managed to alienate family due to poor life choices and lack of personal responsibility.

 

Not showing up for interviews is another clue. It shows lack of judgement, lack of concern, unwillingness to take responsibility and lack of appreciation for a potential opportunity.

 

Again, mental illness can factor into this but it could be he is looking for others to care for him. In any event, he ultimately needs to take some steps towards helping himself and meeting those who are trying to help him halfway to some degree.

 

ETA - the skill of being charming is a red flag. He is possibly very good at manipulating others, getting them to feel sorry for him, etc. It is working for him right now.

Edited August 5, 2016 by jelbe5

[katilac]

You'd be extremely uncomfortable here then, because chatting with strangers to pass the time is common. If I freaked out every time an adult I don't know made small talk with me or dd I'd need to be permanently sedated.

 

Obviously I'm not going to change anyone's mind or argue them into more compassion though, so I'll just bow out.

 

Nope, I live in the deep south, where cashiers call you "honey" and talking to strangers is practically a law. 

 

That's very different from a much older person purposefully walking over to a church where a teenager is alone and WORKING, expecting her to have conversations and asking her to play the piano. I can't even imagine doing that to a teenager that I know well; why would I? They're working. I might pop in and ask if they want me to bring them some lunch, but I'm not going to hang out and watch them clean. 

 

How do you think people should express compassion? His behavior is inappropriate, whether he has issues or not. It needs to be addressed, whether he has issues or not. 

[momacacia]

This guy sounds like big-time trouble. Not trying to make you more concerned, but I'd keep a very close eye on things even after he moves on.

Ditto. He has all the red flags, and knows where your dd works.

[Anne in CA]

I wonder if he is not showing up for job interviews because he knows that when an employer checks his background something yucky will come up.

[Happy2BaMom]

You'd be extremely uncomfortable here then, because chatting with strangers to pass the time is common. If I freaked out every time an adult I don't know made small talk with me or dd I'd need to be permanently sedated.

 

Obviously I'm not going to change anyone's mind or argue them into more compassion though, so I'll just bow out.

 

You know, I enjoy - and agree with - a lot of your posts on other threads, but I totally disagree with this (which, you may not be reading this thread, so perhaps this is a totally moot point). However, if you do, I highly recommend that you (and anyone else interested in the subject) read the book "Protecting the Gift: Keeping Children and Teenagers Safe (and Parents Sane) by Gavin de Becker. He does an excellent job of demonstrating who the true predators are - and it's not the boogeymen driving around in strange cars. 

 

There is a big difference - HUGE difference - between two adult strangers chatting to pass the time because they happen to be in the same elevator or standing in the same lobby or in a long line at the grocery store  - and a 30-something adult repeatedly seeking out an underage adolescent when said adolescent is alone and in a vulnerable position (she's working, so it's not like she can just up and leave). HUGE. To pretend that they are the same - and then accuse those who do recognize the difference of not being compassionate or of being hypocritical (BTW, I'm not a Christian, so can't claim that I'm a hypocritical Christian) is both unfair and untrue. No one is asking you to freak out about making small talk with another adult - you're not an underage, inexperienced girl alone in a small building who does not mutually desire contact with a man who either does not notice or care that his interest is not returned. The two situations are not the same.

 

As I referenced before, there are many, many other places this 30--something adult can "chat with strangers to pass the time".  An empty church with a reluctant 16-year-old girl is not one of them. 

[Denisemomof4]

Because I trusted my gut, and because I was an over protective parent, my son is safe.

 

We became friends with a man from church. He led bible studies and seemed like a devoted Christian. He was such a nice man and spent a lot of time with my family, but outside his presence I had this uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach, one I just couldn't understand. Then he would come around again and I would think I was crazy because he was so nice. He came to my boy's games, helped us stack hay, etc. We thought he was lonely because his family was back in NY. I met the wife and we talked on the phone several times.

 

Turns out he had been molesting boys for 20 years. His brother was as well, and he was a truck driver who took minors over state lines, even into Canada to molest them. When our "friend" was arrested, the detective contacted us because there were TONS pictures of my son on his computer. Thankfully, trusting my gut and being over protective saved my son. My kids didn't like how protective I was but I have no regrets.

 

Your scenario is one that I would not allow. If I couldn't go to the house myself, the job would be over and I would tell the pastor why. She may get upset, as my boys did (only one was targeted as he was the sicko's target age) but I thank God my boys were never harmed.

 

The two sickos are locked up for life now. They are from upstate NY and police were advertising for the public's help because they realized just how big their circle of victims was. The mother died during their trials.

 

I still can't believe we had someone like that in our home.