Can we talk about the Brexit vote??

[Serenade]

 

Activist investors here in the US have an overwhelming amount of control of business practices. Now the board is bemoaning the fact that said offshore company isn't performing at the peak level they had assumed. 

 

 

One of the best consulting jobs my DH ever had was picking up the pieces for a job that had originally been outsourced to India and had failed.  It ended up costing the company a whole lot more -- the initial cost of outsourcing the job to India, and then they had to pay for it again with US engineers completing the project.

[Laura Corin]

But would the jobs no longer be considered a minimum wage job had workers not willing to work for less entered the picture? I am not trying to be argumentative, I am just curious. As an American our system is so different and no one can deny that illegal immigration and offshoring have definitely effected wages here. It just seems hard for me to understand the snobbery implied that someone would rather be unemployed than take a physically difficult job, as a country wide affliction if other issues were not in play.

 

As mentioned in a post above- offshoring and outsourcing has done major damage to the IT industry here. My husband has had to deal with it in his position at his company. The board DEMANDED they offshore to India and another Central American company because they could get workers for less than half of the wages commanded in the US. It made my husband physically ill to deal with the lay offs of honestly more qualified US workers in this instance to meet with the demands of the board. However the board was going to have its way and all he would have won by fighting is a loss of his own job.

 

Activist investors here in the US have an overwhelming amount of control of business practices. Now the board is bemoaning the fact that said offshore company isn't performing at the peak level they had assumed. There is a language barrier, there are management differences across cultural borders (big surprise- they're people not automatic robots and employing them with a US firm doesn't automatically make them privy to all things American). I find it hard to believe the same doesn't happen in the UK. Is it the fault of the Indians my husband company outsourced to that they are willing to work for a wage, that although acceptable in terms of minimums, is still far beneath the living wage? No, definitely not. Is it the fault of the board who's job in life is profit? I don't know. It's an extremely complicated issue. I just am struggling to see how in Britian, immigration doesn't play SOME role in wages, even if it's not clearly black and white. It seems impossible that is has zero effect. I'm not buying it. That's not to say it justifies xenophobia, but rather than dismissing it completely as having any affect at all seems suspect. There is no way I can see that immigration doesn't have societal effects, be they positive or negative. It will have an effect of some sort though. I mean it's the story of the world in itself right? If populations were static they would be leas war and far less social change. But that never happens.

 

I'm sure it doesn't have zero effect on wages, but given that Britain is an expensive place to do business, if the workers (British or foreign) were paid more than minimum wage, many of the jobs would cease to exist.  In agriculture, for example, under the EU, there are no barriers to trade, so if agricultural workers were paid more, then the prices would be high enough to equal the transport costs of bringing produce in from other countries.  One example is asparagus: it is available year-round here, imported from various countries, but British asparagus is only available for about a month.  There is a small premium that shoppers will pay but it's not much.  At the same time, because the season is short, the harvest (by hand) has to take place very fast.  So you need fast, low-paid workers, otherwise the product will cease to exist.

 

It is hard to disentangle, however: not enough British people are going into nursing, for example, and the NHS imports nurses not just from the rest of Europe but also around the world (notably The Philippines).  To what extent do low wages discourage British people (starting salary is £21,000) and to what extent do people just not want to do those jobs in a low-unemployment situation (the lowest in many years)? I don't know.  ETA: in the case of nursing, I think that the wider variety of jobs available to women has had a big effect and has turned people away from traditional roles.

 

There's some history: during the 1980s, under Margaret Thatcher, in order to reduce the unemployment figures following the closure of nationalised industries, many people were put onto disability benefit who were not actually disabled.  It was a way of massaging the figures.  Not working became a generational habit in those areas which is hard to break.  Those people were screwed over, as were their children.  Resentment as well as a lack of work habits are understandable. I live near one of those areas, and they are bleak.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Laura Corin

[Laura Corin]

One more question- who controls the minimum wage in the UK? Does the EU have a say in it, or is it like in the US where it's determined state by state (or in your case country by country) with the exception of federal jobs and federal contractors?

 

The minimum wage is country-by-country, so a higher wage in Britain potentially draws in people from other countries.  It's currently £7.20 an hour.

[FaithManor]

One of the best consulting jobs my DH ever had was picking up the pieces for a job that had originally been outsourced to India and had failed.  It ended up costing the company a whole lot more -- the initial cost of outsourcing the job to India, and then they had to pay for it again with US engineers completing the project.

Same thing for my DH. He has made good money fixing bad code from outsourcing. Sometimes it isn't even so much bad code, but simply a cultural lack of understanding of what the US business needs the software to do because the foreign worker doesn't really understand the needs. You can't make someone who has never worked in American business before, understand this. They need years of exposure. There is a major learning curve there.

 

Now dh's company does not outsource at all. After years of pushing it and not getting the results they wanted in the time frame they wanted it, they have moved all of their IT work in house, but then they had trouble hiring enough American tech personnel to get the work done and are still understaffed. Another bad outcome of outsourcing because when that hit its pinnacle, many workers took early retirement, the workers that became unemployed went to work in other sectors, and colleges did not heavily market their comp sci departments figuring that there might not be much work ahead for the young comp sci graduate. It left a hole. A big, big hole. 

 

Now companies are begging for comp sci graduates. And round the mulberry bush we go!

[Guest]

Same thing for my DH. He has made good money fixing bad code from outsourcing. Sometimes it isn't even so much bad code, but simply a cultural lack of understanding of what the US business needs the software to do because the foreign worker doesn't really understand the needs. You can't make someone who has never worked in American business before, understand this. They need years of exposure. There is a major learning curve there.

 

Now dh's company does not outsource at all. After years of pushing it and not getting the results they wanted in the time frame they wanted it, they have moved all of their IT work in house, but then they had trouble hiring enough American tech personnel to get the work done and are still understaffed. Another bad outcome of outsourcing because when that hit its pinnacle, many workers took early retirement, the workers that became unemployed went to work in other sectors, and colleges did not heavily market their comp sci departments figuring that there might not be much work ahead for the young comp sci graduate. It left a hole. A big, big hole.

 

Now companies are begging for comp sci graduates. And round the mulberry bush we go!

I wish the board would come to that conclusion at dh's company. They are crying over the disaster this has turned into for exactly the reasons you listed, but with the activists in control of the board all they care about it driving the stock price up so they can most likely dump it here in the near future when they hit their threshold. The higher my dh has risen the more sour my attitude towards corporate America has become because my eyes have been opened to things I never had a clue about before.

[Guest]

People want the old certainties back - good manufacturing jobs, for example. They don't want zero contract work, or jobs that barely support them. They want decent housing, and decent schools and a good day's pay for a good day's work.

 

It's easy to sneer at those desires as 'out of touch', And frankly, that was the tone of Remain. Complete lack of empathy and understanding for those who felt the only autonomy they had was to vote Leave, even though that result only worsens their situation.

 

Many people enjoy the fruits of globalization. Many people don't. Until the 'don'ts' have their concerns dealt with, properly - and that doesn't mean austerity politics - people will continue to choose and vote 'the wrong way'.

So Sadie, is this (Brexit) going to have any impact on y'all in Australia? I saw some mention of comparing that certain things in Britain may soon be like some things Australians have to deal with (something about points I didn't understand) that didn't seem like a good thing. Any more insight on how this will or won't effect y'all?

[Bluegoat]

I think the other side of the fears of unemployment are issues around housing.  Directly this is more about bad housing policy, and London-centric development, which aren't an EU thing. When many people are competing for inadequate low and medium income housing, and they are seeing workers who will be looking for that same kind of housing coming from other places, they are pretty resentful.  And more so when they are having to move out of the areas they grew up in or are near family, even though locals are supposed to be given first choice.

 

It's much like Sadie said IMO - the parties associated with being pro-EU have in the past talked a good talk on things like reducing classism or looking out for the workers and poor, but those days seem to be over - they simply aren't being seen by those people, the most disenfranchised of voters, to be doing anything for them.  Not even listening, or worse, mocking their experience. 

 

There is real truth to the concept of throwing a spanner into the works - people with no access to power will assert it in any way they can when there is a chance, just to make a change - a change might be better, it might provide more scope to act.   If people get to that point, it's a problem with governance or institutional structures.

 

 

[Murphy101]

People want the old certainties back - good manufacturing jobs, for example. They don't want zero contract work, or jobs that barely support them. They want decent housing, and decent schools and a good day's pay for a good day's work.

 

It's easy to sneer at those desires as 'out of touch', And frankly, that was the tone of Remain. Complete lack of empathy and understanding for those who felt the only autonomy they had was to vote Leave, even though that result only worsens their situation.

 

Many people enjoy the fruits of globalization. Many people don't. Until the 'don'ts' have their concerns dealt with, properly - and that doesn't mean austerity politics - people will continue to choose and vote 'the wrong way'.

I don't think you and I have ever been so in agreement political understanding.ðŸ‘😎

[Anacharsis]

But is that really true, or is it that British people don't want to do those jobs for the wages companies want to pay?  Normally then, if the market were controlling, companies would have to pay more or offer better benefits in order to get workers.  

 

In the US, for example, tech companies would rather have a foreign worker they can pay $50,000 a year than an American worker who expects to have decent housing in San Francisco and pay off college debt, and therefore expects to make $100,000 a year or more.  (Just throwing out these numbers.)  The idea that "no one wants these jobs" is sometimes an incomplete thought that really means "no one wants these jobs at what we want to pay".  

 

ETA cross posted similar thought above.

 

What interests me about this is that it seems to contradict Adam Smith's idea that risky or unpleasant jobs will always pay more than safe or pleasant jobs (that there will be a compensating differential).

​

​I guess the question I am curious about is why that would be so...

Edited June 27, 2016 by Anacharsis

[MistyMountain]

I am seeing that there has been a lot of open racism after this vote and people are saying things like we voted to kick you out so leave. Some people have been hearing it from multiple people more then they did their entire lives. People are being openly hostile. It really deeply saddens me that people blame all their problems on immigration. It can be worse here if we manage to elect a certain someone.

[Murphy101]

What interests me about this is that it seems to contradict Adam Smith's idea that risky or unpleasant jobs will always pay more than safe or pleasant jobs (that there will be a compensating differential).

Not familiar with him, but that sounds like he never opened a history book.

 

Unpleasant jobs will always have job openings. Whether they pay well depends greatly. It might pay well or it might be slavery. Usually it's just reliable decent employment, which is no small thing to attain either.

[goldberry]

I am seeing that there has been a lot of open racism after this vote and people are saying things like we voted to kick you out so leave. Some people have been hearing it from multiple people more then they did their entire lives. People are being openly hostile. It really deeply saddens me that people blame all their problems on immigration. It can be worse here if we manage to elect a certain someone.

 

It's taken many years to reach the point where open racism is not socially accepted.  Once we go back there again (which is happening in the US also) where does it stop?

[hornblower]

What interests me about this is that it seems to contradict Adam Smith's idea that risky or unpleasant jobs will always pay more than safe or pleasant jobs (that there will be a compensating differential).

​

​I guess the question I am curious about is why that would be so...

 

I think he was predicating on a closed system & good bargaining powers of employees plus transparent wage schemes. It's what *should* happen in a free responsive market. It doesn't happen because the capital controllers exploit workers by setting up rules to limit bargaining power, by going outside the closed system (importing workers, getting scabs etc).  My pov is that capitalists only want free market when it suits them.  We have an ongoing problem here in Canada with 'temporary foreign workers' working in fast food joints. If they weren't allowed to import workers who are wiling to work in atrocious conditions for crap pay, they'd have to raise the salaries until locals found the exchange of labour for capital worthwhile. 

[Anacharsis]

​​

Not familiar with him, but that sounds like he never opened a history book.

 

Unpleasant jobs will always have job openings. Whether they pay well depends greatly. It might pay well or it might be slavery. Usually it's just reliable decent employment, which is no small thing to attain either.

​​

He was a Scottish economist -- definitely worth a read if that is an area that interests you. (His books, like The Wealth of Nations, are now all in the public domain.) Maybe my understanding of him is flawed; he was fairly well-read for his time.

 

​Here's the part I was thinking of:

​

​​​The wages of labour vary with the ease or hardship, the cleanliness or dirtiness, the honourableness or  dishonourableness of the employment. Thus in most places, take the year round, a journeyman tailor earns less  than a journeyman weaver. His work is much easier. A journeyman weaver earns less than a journeyman smith.  His work is not always easier, but it is much cleanlier. A journeyman blacksmith, though an artificer, seldom   earns so much in twelve hours as a collier, who is only a labourer, does in eight. His work is not quite so dirty, is  less dangerous, and is carried on in daylight, and above ground. Honour makes a great part of the reward of all  honourable professions. In point of pecuniary gain, all things considered, they are generally under- recompensed, as I shall endeavour to show by and by. Disgrace has the contrary effect. The trade of a butcher is  a brutal and an odious business; but it is in most places more profitable than the greater part of common  trades. The most detestable of all employments, that of public executioner, is, in proportion to the quantity of  work done, better paid than any common trade whatever.

 

Hunting and fishing, the most important employments of mankind in the rude state of society, become in its  advanced state their most agreeable amusements, and they pursue for pleasure what they once followed from  necessity. In the advanced state of society , therefore, they are all very poor people who follow as a trade what  other people pursue as a pastime. Fishermen have been so since the time of Theocritus. A poacher is  everywhere a very poor man in Great Britain. In countries where the rigour of the law suffers no poachers, the  licensed hunter is not in a much better condition. The natural taste for those employments makes more people  follow them than can live comfortably by them, and the produce of their labour, in proportion to its quantity,  comes always too cheap to market to afford anything but the most scanty subsistence to the labourers.

 

Disagreeableness and disgrace affect the profits of stock in the same manner as the wages of labour. The   keeper of an inn or tavern, who is never master of his own house, and who is exposed to the brutality of every  drunkard, exercises neither a very agreeable nor a very creditable business. But there is scarce any common  trade in which a small stock yields so great a profit.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Anacharsis

[Guest]

It won't affect us, other than to make a win in next week's federal election more likely for out own Tories ( on the basis that in times of insecurity, voters tend to stay with the incumbent.) It's possible that what is happening with Labour UK will impact on our Labor party if they lose the election.

 

Weirdly, although we are a monarchy, with Elizabeth ruling over us, what happens in the UK has far less impact on us than what happens in the US. The UK washed their hands of AU quite some time ago.

 

 

Yes, we have a points system for immigration. I'm not quite sure how the points are awarded, and I think it changes, depending on what skills we need at any particular time. We're not the poster children for immigration though by any stretch of the imagination.

Thank you. I am completely ignorant of all of this- and it's hard for me to just read papers and have a true idea of what is going on. Like the parties- I have no idea about which parties are for what or even where to go to get a better understanding- our two party system is so completely different. I think that's why so much of this is fascinating to me. Likewise I had no idea the US had a bigger influence over y'all than the UK. The monarchy thing outside of the UK is a concept I've never understood completely. I wasn't sure how exactly it impacted Australia and Canada.

[FaithManor]

On the work "people don't want to do" I have to ask- is it that they find the work so beneath them they don't want to, or is it that the immigrants have driven the price down to such a level that it isn't worth it? I often hear that same thing said here about illegal immigration but I don't really understand it. The work is the work and I can't see unemployed unskilled workers turning their noses up at them, but here because they are illegal they get paid dirt wages and no citizen would probably readily work for half of minimum wage. It's pointless because you can't live off of it and the employers wouldn't hire you anyway because then it's theoretically reportable. Most citizens are going to demand at least minimum wage, but the illegal immigrants are at the mercy of the system because if they speak up they risk deportation. I personally fine it abusive to the illegal immigrants. I know in the UK the illegal part is moot. But it seems there is still must be some economic inequality at play, rather than some snooty people who don't want to farm or provide nursing care or something?? I mean when pay it good an awful lot of people are willing to put up with distasteful jobs.

Those that hire illegals here often do so to avoid paying the employer portion of social security, liability insurance, workman's comp, unemployement insurance,  etc. They will still offer minimum wage most of the time, but it cuts their overhead to not pay into the system on those wages. Since these workers are illegal and afraid of being deported it means the business can also get a way with a lot of OSHA violations because the worker is afraid to be found out by authorities and won't report problems or injuires nor will they sue their employers. Some of them are horrifically injured on the job in absolutely awful working conditions, but they won't tell ER docs how it happened or where so that their relatives that work for the same individual will not lose their jobs or get deported when officials investigate.

 

So in terms of hourly wage, there is no savings to the employer. But when one considers the payroll withholding as well as other programs the employer must pay into for each employee of record, then the savings really add up. It is immoral in my opinion, total human trafficking but not rare around here unfortunately.

[FaithManor]

It's taken many years to reach the point where open racism is not socially accepted.  Once we go back there again (which is happening in the US also) where does it stop?

Scare me too!

 

Makes me want to grab my family and take up residence on a bungalow in Fiji. Now maybe I have that place built up to an idealic extreme in my mind, but you are hard pressed to ever here anything but good about Fiji!

 

I am very frightened for this country. 

[JumpyTheFrog]

We have an ongoing problem here in Canada with 'temporary foreign workers' working in fast food joints. If they weren't allowed to import workers who are wiling to work in atrocious conditions for crap pay, they'd have to raise the salaries until locals found the exchange of labour for capital worthwhile.

  

 

We have a friend that used to be a contractor. My area has many, many illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America. A few years ago my friend said that house framers in our area only earn $8-10 per hour for a hot, hard job. There is plenty of work for them, but I guess the wages are remain low because so many keep coming. Supply and demand.

 

Those that hire illegals here often do so to avoid paying the employer portion of social security, liability insurance, workman's comp, unemployement insurance,  etc. They will still offer minimum wage most of the time, but it cuts their overhead to not pay into the system on those wages. Since these workers are illegal and afraid of being deported it means the business can also get a way with a lot of OSHA violations because the worker is afraid to be found out by authorities and won't report problems or injuires nor will they sue their employers. Some of them are horrifically injured on the job in absolutely awful working conditions, but they won't tell ER docs how it happened or where so that their relatives that work for the same individual will not lose their jobs or get deported when officials investigate.

 

Our newspaper had a series last year about all the illegal workers who weren't receiving their pay. My area apparently has a huge problem with contractors highering people and then not paying the wages promised. I think this is in addition to not paying the state for unemployment, worker's comp, etc. I think it is a real problem, not only for the workers, but for citizens and legal residents. Having a ready supply of poorly paid workers afraid to demand fair treatment and safe work conditions does not encourage employers to treat their legal employees better.

[Guest]

 

We have a friend that used to be a contractor. My area has many, many illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America. A few years ago my friend said that house framers in our area only earn $8-10 per hour for a hot, hard job. There is plenty of work for them, but I guess the wages are remain low because so many keep coming. Supply and demand.

 

 

Our newspaper had a series last year about all the illegal workers who weren't receiving their pay. My area apparently has a huge problem with contractors highering people and then not paying the wages promised. I think this is in addition to not paying the state for unemployment, worker's comp, etc. I think it is a real problem, not only for the workers, but for citizens and legal residents. Having a ready supply of poorly paid workers afraid to demand fair treatment and safe work conditions does not encourage employers to treat their legal employees better.

This seems to be a predominant issue here too. There are multiple places in surrounding towns where the illegals wait in huge groups outside to be picked for day labor. They have no idea who is picking them up, where they are going, or the conditions under which they will be working. Then we have the cooks in many restaurants riding their bicycles on dangerous roads to and from the restaurants late at night (which are ironically often Chinese restaurants go figure). They live in bad apartment complexes with no transportation (Houston and surrounding areas have terrible to nonexistent public transit and it's difficult to live here without a vehicle. Bikes aren't really a safe option in most areas outside of the loop.) They aren't getting paid minimum wage in many instances and are lucky if they're included in any tip sharing that may occur. I don't know the answer to illegal immigrantion here, but I certainly don't blame them from fleeing corrupt and cartel overrun countries to seek something better. I wish everyone would stop making it a hill to die on rather than compromise on a solution, recognize that they are here and deal with it like we are dealing with actual people and not some theoretical concept that can be shipped away like a piece of garbage. I know that this is unrelated to Bexit, but it does seem immigration, be it refugee, illegal or legal is a world wide issue coming to a head these days. Edited June 27, 2016 by texasmom33

[nobeatenpath]

Makes me want to grab my family and take up residence on a bungalow in Fiji. Now maybe I have that place built up to an idealic extreme in my mind, but you are hard pressed to ever here anything but good about Fiji!

 

 

 

I know you were just joking but Fiji is a country with outright open racism against various ethnic groups, political instability in that it has had multiple coups over the past 20 years, and is in very poor democratic and economic times.

 

Not to pick on you, but this kind of underlines the whole argument when it come to people who don't really know the UK arguing about Brexit - it either becomes an argument about issues in the US - which yes do affect the rest of the world but guess what? My future and my child's future have been thrown in to turmoil with this vote - or is based on assumptions that have nothing to do with reality on the ground.

 

This is a big deal for some of us - it's about more than if London will be become cheap for holidays. It is about potential financial hardship*, it is about lost opportunity, it is about extreme uncertainty and it is about the rise of open racism and yes, outright facism. This vote has screwed over my family's future, and the future of many other families, and it was based on ignorance.

 

 

* A friend was in touch with me, in tears, saying her business will not survive another recession in the UK and if that is the case she will lose her house as well. She has no idea what will become of her family, including her son.

 

 

 

[hornblower]

There's already talk of other countries trying to leave the EU. The idea that Europe will balkanize again is frankly very scary. Nationalism is a horrible, destructive force. 
 

[Guest]

There's already talk of other countries trying to leave the EU. The idea that Europe will balkanize again is frankly very scary. Nationalism is a horrible, destructive force.

 

It can be destructive for sure, but it doesn't seem globalization was all sunshine and roses for a lot of places either. It seems to be the cause of many of the rises in nationalism because of the way it's worked out, as a few people mentioned above. The drumbeat that everything has to go global seems to be marginalizing all but the most elite who will be okay financially no matter what is outsourced or what regulations pop up. Globalization seems to have also exploited a whole lot of vulnerable populations rather than bringing them up in the world. The sex trafficking alone is a horrid byproduct. Yes it existed before but not near at the extent as it does now.

[hornblower]

I have to run out the door but wanted to comment that globalization =/= internationalism. 

I don't support globalization.

Globalization is about corporate greed, exporting jobs, hiding environmental responsibility, dodging taxes etc. It's a totally different thing than internationalism. 

[nobeatenpath]

I'm with Hornblower on this - the idea that we can only be connected internationally through globalization is not something I would agree with. It is possible to have a system of interconnected nations on the basis of something other than capitalism.

[Guest]

I'm with Hornblower on this - the idea that we can only be connected internationally through globalization is not something I would agree with. It is possible to have a system of interconnected nations on the basis of something other than capitalism.

I guess I am not clear enough on the system then to understand- I mean isn't the EU largely financially based? There is a price for belonging, right? The bailout for Greece came at a heavy financial penalty and they're now largely at the mercy of the Germans it seems. I'm sure I'm missing a lot, but the EU seems like a socialist federation in many ways- someone still has to pay the piper for those who can't. Whether it's tagged a capitalism or anything else it still comes down to money, couched in terms of trade agreements and other financial arrangements, right?

Edited June 27, 2016 by texasmom33

[goldberry]

 

Not to pick on you, but this kind of underlines the whole argument when it come to people who don't really know the UK arguing about Brexit - it either becomes an argument about issues in the US 

 

Respectfully, most of us I think are reading and participating in this thread because we realize we don't fully understand and want to understand more. And naturally, those of us in the US are going to comment and speculate on similarities and how things might play out here as well.  

 

I'm sorry for what you and your friends are going through.

[Laura Corin]

What interests me about this is that it seems to contradict Adam Smith's idea that risky or unpleasant jobs will always pay more than safe or pleasant jobs (that there will be a compensating differential).

​

​I guess the question I am curious about is why that would be so...

 

When Adam Smith was writing, the choices were working, starving or the Workhouse.  The UK has a benefits system that I wholeheartedly support, but I'm not blind to the fact that - for a small minority of people - the existence of benefits makes low-paid and unpleasant jobs unattractive, whilst immigrants may have a different attitude.  AS also lived at a time when imports and exports were much more difficult than they are now, so expensive labour in one country was not easy to replace with cheap labour in another country.

 

 

This is a big deal for some of us - it's about more than if London will be become cheap for holidays. It is about potential financial hardship*, it is about lost opportunity, it is about extreme uncertainty and it is about the rise of open racism and yes, outright facism. This vote has screwed over my family's future, and the future of many other families, and it was based on ignorance.

 

 

* A friend was in touch with me, in tears, saying her business will not survive another recession in the UK and if that is the case she will lose her house as well. She has no idea what will become of her family, including her son.

 

Yes.  It's hard at the moment.  I spent the whole of Sunday raging inwardly (mostly) about what had been done to my country by people some of whom had no idea what they were doing.  I have no problem with those who made a reasoned decision that Britain would be better outside of the EU, but a thoughtless protest vote on something so important makes me angry.

 

On a minor level, as it affects our family: Husband is freelance and depends on companies wanting to take on his services, which may not be considered core in a time of crisis.  So probably reduced job offers for him and he's already underemployed due to his age.  I was about to apply for a better paying job (an extra £7,000 per year plus better pension) within my organisation.  But it's not a line job - rather it's in a support function, and could well get cut when the organisation realises the damage that Brexit will cause.  I had a pretty good chance at that job.  'Hobbes' will probably have to pay more in university costs.  I have no way of knowing what reduced job opportunities my sons will experience in the next few years.  Our retirement income is based on the value of a flat that we have rented out - the value and rent will probably fall.  Meanwhile, I have my mother living with me, who is heavily dependent on the NHS (and the economic health of the country as it feeds into taxes) and will be very dependent on social care over time (ditto).

 

Respectfully, most of us I think are reading and participating in this thread because we realize we don't fully understand and want to understand more. And naturally, those of us in the US are going to comment and speculate on similarities and how things might play out here as well.  

 

 

Yes.  It's understandable.  But we are feeling pretty raw.

[LisaKinVA]

I see lots of parallels between what led to the Brexit and turmoil that has been stirring in the US for decades (yes...decades -- my first recollection of this dates back to Bush, Sr.'s presidency, and personal run-ins with Jeb in political inner-workings of FL).   I also know that the Leave campaign brought in US strategists for messaging/polling.  The person they hired is very good at what he does -- although, personally, I've had many a disagreement with him since the early 90's. He is well trained (PhD from Penn St), and years and years of experience with public policy debate, and running communications for Presidential Campaigns.  He was no novice. 

 

This situation being seen in GB is happening throughout Europe right now (as many others have mentioned).  The rumblings can be felt around here, as well (even though Italy probably benefits more from the EU than GB ever did).

 

There is a feeling of us/them (political elite vs.working class), and the condescension if often times not imagined.

 

There's a really good article in The Atlantic about the Chaos that is the US Political scene right now, and I found myself in agreement with much of what I read.   While the situation in GB and throughout Europe is definitely not the same, it is not altogether different, either.  

 

 

[Faithr]

I just want to say that I have appreciated this thread so much.  I don't really understand the EU or what Brexit was all about.  It is really good to hear from both sides.  It has been most edifying for me.  So thank you ladies for your conversation.  It balances out anything I read in the press.

[Joules]

 

Yes. It's hard at the moment. I spent the whole of Sunday raging inwardly (mostly) about what had been done to my country by people some of whom had no idea what they were doing. I have no problem with those who made a reasoned decision that Britain would be better outside of the EU, but a thoughtless protest vote on something so important makes me angry.

 

On a minor level, as it affects our family: Husband is freelance and depends on companies wanting to take on his services, which may not be considered core in a time of crisis. So probably reduced job offers for him and he's already underemployed due to his age. I was about to apply for a better paying job (an extra £7,000 per year plus better pension) within my organisation. But it's not a line job - rather it's in a support function, and could well get cut when the organisation realises the damage that Brexit will cause. I had a pretty good chance at that job. 'Hobbes' will probably have to pay more in university costs. I have no way of knowing what reduced job opportunities my sons will experience in the next few years. Our retirement income is based on the value of a flat that we have rented out - the value and rent will probably fall. Meanwhile, I have my mother living with me, who is heavily dependent on the NHS (and the economic health of the country as it feeds into taxes) and will be very dependent on social care over time (ditto).

 

 

Yes. It's understandable. But we are feeling pretty raw.

(((Hugs))) to you, Laura. I have relatives in Scotland. I hope that the independence is revisited and Scotland can join the EU easily.

[Laura Corin]

(((Hugs))) to you, Laura. I have relatives in Scotland. I hope that the independence is revisited and Scotland can join the EU easily.

 

But then do we have to join the Euro?  That might not be wise.  There's no particular reason why the EU should give Scotland the concessions that the UK has - Scotland will not be the net contributor that the UK was.

[JoJosMom]

I see lots of parallels between what led to the Brexit and turmoil that has been stirring in the US for decades (yes...decades -- my first recollection of this dates back to Bush, Sr.'s presidency, and personal run-ins with Jeb in political inner-workings of FL).   I also know that the Leave campaign brought in US strategists for messaging/polling.  The person they hired is very good at what he does -- although, personally, I've had many a disagreement with him since the early 90's. He is well trained (PhD from Penn St), and years and years of experience with public policy debate, and running communications for Presidential Campaigns.  He was no novice. 

 

This situation being seen in GB is happening throughout Europe right now (as many others have mentioned).  The rumblings can be felt around here, as well (even though Italy probably benefits more from the EU than GB ever did).

 

There is a feeling of us/them (political elite vs.working class), and the condescension if often times not imagined.

 

There's a really good article in The Atlantic about the Chaos that is the US Political scene right now, and I found myself in agreement with much of what I read.   While the situation in GB and throughout Europe is definitely not the same, it is not altogether different, either.  

 

:iagree:  I think this is the key point.  Yes, the immediate fall-out is not for those of us in the US, but we are experiencing symptoms of the very same underlying problem, so it's probably not unexpected that our focus is on what this will mean for us.  That doesn't mean that we do not have sympathy for those of you directly impacted. :sad:

 

(And the existence of short-term chaos doesn't mean long-term disaster, either.  I remember the predictions of utter financial catastrophe that were made when the UK opted out of the euro, "How can London remain the center of finance without using the common currency?" was the question.  Turned out the answer was "Quite nicely.")

 

[Lady Florida.]

I am seeing that there has been a lot of open racism after this vote and people are saying things like we voted to kick you out so leave. Some people have been hearing it from multiple people more then they did their entire lives. People are being openly hostile. It really deeply saddens me that people blame all their problems on immigration. It can be worse here if we manage to elect a certain someone.

 

This is what I saw this morning. 

 

Not familiar with him, but that sounds like he never opened a history book.

 

 

He's in the history books. He's pretty much the father of the idea of free markets.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith

Edited June 27, 2016 by Lady Florida.

[Lady Florida.]

  

 

We have a friend that used to be a contractor. My area has many, many illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America. A few years ago my friend said that house framers in our area only earn $8-10 per hour for a hot, hard job. There is plenty of work for them, but I guess the wages are remain low because so many keep coming. Supply and demand.

 

 

 

 

My brother was in construction and often worked on jobs with unskilled illegal immigrants. He said for many builders it was cheaper to hire a bunch of unskilled illegal workers to build a house or other building in a sub-par manner, then have one or two people like my brother come in and fix the mistakes than to hire enough people like him to build it in the first place. Part of the low cost was not having to pay SS, taxes, Workman's Comp, etc.

[Guest]

My brother was in construction and often worked on jobs with unskilled illegal immigrants. He said for many builders it was cheaper to hire a bunch of unskilled illegal workers to build a house or other building in a sub-par manner, then have one or two people like my brother come in and fix the mistakes than to hire enough people like him to build it in the first place. Part of the low cost was not having to pay SS, taxes, Workman's Comp, etc.

That's scary. Makes me glad I live in a old house!!

[JumpyTheFrog]

My brother was in construction and often worked on jobs with unskilled illegal immigrants. He said for many builders it was cheaper to hire a bunch of unskilled illegal workers to build a house or other building in a sub-par manner, then have one or two people like my brother come in and fix the mistakes than to hire enough people like him to build it in the first place. Part of the low cost was not having to pay SS, taxes, Workman's Comp, etc.

 

Yeah, and then businesses complain that they "can't" find Americans willing to do the work. Whenever I hear "jobs Americans won't do" I always mentally add "at the low wages, poor/illegal working conditions, or unpredictable schedule offered".

[KungFuPanda]

I know you were just joking but Fiji is a country with outright open racism against various ethnic groups, political instability in that it has had multiple coups over the past 20 years, and is in very poor democratic and economic times.

 

Not to pick on you, but this kind of underlines the whole argument when it come to people who don't really know the UK arguing about Brexit - it either becomes an argument about issues in the US - which yes do affect the rest of the world but guess what? My future and my child's future have been thrown in to turmoil with this vote - or is based on assumptions that have nothing to do with reality on the ground.

 

This is a big deal for some of us - it's about more than if London will be become cheap for holidays. It is about potential financial hardship*, it is about lost opportunity, it is about extreme uncertainty and it is about the rise of open racism and yes, outright facism. This vote has screwed over my family's future, and the future of many other families, and it was based on ignorance.

 

 

* A friend was in touch with me, in tears, saying her business will not survive another recession in the UK and if that is the case she will lose her house as well. She has no idea what will become of her family, including her son.

People are reading and participating in this thread to better understand what is happening. Berating them for making U.S. comparisons is unnecessary. They're just over-simplifying a bit to construct a general mental map. Nobody thinks it's exactly like U.S. anything.

 

The Fiji comment didn't literally mean Fiji, but "insert island paradise here." Nobody believes an island utopia exists, but it's a nice fantasy. Her sentiment was clear and reading up on the political history of Fiji wasn't really necessary to get that point across.

[goldberry]

 

Yes.  It's understandable.  But we are feeling pretty raw.

 

Thank for for sharing all your knowledge with us.

[Bluegoat]

But then do we have to join the Euro?  That might not be wise.  There's no particular reason why the EU should give Scotland the concessions that the UK has - Scotland will not be the net contributor that the UK was.

 

I heard a really interesting interview today that touched on this, with a Scottish economist who works in the US.  It was an interview rather than an argument, but roughly what he said was:

 

- There is an educated perspective that saw this vote as a way to possibly smash the Euro, even though it was generally pro-European.  THeir view is that the Euro is bound to be very bad for some parts of Europe - wages across for lower-level jobs will ultimatly be reduced to the level of Eastern Europe.  THis will be good for Eastern Europe and some northern manufacturing economies and the rich, very bad for France, Italy, and some others.

 

-Essentially, if the rules say that no country is really allowed to run a deficit, it means that those economies will need to permanently contract.

 

-The vote however was not decided by people like that, but by what he called "Trumpism" which is the working classes who have been totally abandoned by their political representatives, and indeed the lower 60% of the economy who have been told that globalism is great for them  and they can all work as computer programmers. 

 

-We can see this is not really about the economics for people in the Scottish reaction - the referendum to leave the UK was lost essentially, over worries about the economy, but a non-austerity desire for social democracy is still dominant in Scotland.  So now, they say they will try, without the rest of the UK, to get back into the EU.  So - get rid of the UK government pushing austerity and give themselves over to Germany? - and how has that worked out for Greece?

[Guest]

I heard a really interesting interview today that touched on this, with a Scottish economist who works in the US. It was an interview rather than an argument, but roughly what he said was:

 

- There is an educated perspective that saw this vote as a way to possibly smash the Euro, even though it was generally pro-European. THeir view is that the Euro is bound to be very bad for some parts of Europe - wages across for lower-level jobs will ultimatly be reduced to the level of Eastern Europe. THis will be good for Eastern Europe and some northern manufacturing economies and the rich, very bad for France, Italy, and some others.

 

-Essentially, if the rules say that no country is really allowed to run a deficit, it means that those economies will need to permanently contract.

 

-The vote however was not decided by people like that, but by what he called "Trumpism" which is the working classes who have been totally abandoned by their political representatives, and indeed the lower 60% of the economy who have been told that globalism is great for them and they can all work as computer programmers.

 

-We can see this is not really about the economics for people in the Scottish reaction - the referendum to leave the UK was lost essentially, over worries about the economy, but a non-austerity desire for social democracy is still dominant in Scotland. So now, they say they will try, without the rest of the UK, to get back into the EU. So - get rid of the UK government pushing austerity and give themselves over to Germany? - and how has that worked out for Greece?

No kidding. The German Goverment isn't exactly known lately (or maybe ever?) for their warm and fuzzy, forgiving attitudes towards other struggling countries!!

[Bluegoat]

What interests me about this is that it seems to contradict Adam Smith's idea that risky or unpleasant jobs will always pay more than safe or pleasant jobs (that there will be a compensating differential).

​

​I guess the question I am curious about is why that would be so...

 

I think this is one idea where a lot of economists disagree with that idea.  At least some would say that in most cases, it has more to do with how many people there are with the skills to do the job.  An easy, safe job that only a few people can do will probably pay pretty well, a dirty risky job that anyone can do will not pay much.

[Bluegoat]

 International solidarity is one of the pillars of the union movement. I think a lot of people think internationalism is about enjoying each other's food and culture, and taking overseas vacations, but it really isn't. It's about recognizing common aims that transcend national boundaries. And yes, on the basis of class. 

 

However, internationalism is decidedly unfashionable around the Western world and I don't see it undergoing much of a resurgence. 

 

It sure doesn't seem to be at the heart of the workings of the EU these days.  I think many people believe in the EU on those terms, but it's just too far hooked into globalism for those who are economically vulnerable to buy into that.

 

It might be true to say that for those people, the EU really harms the idea of internationalism, in a similar way that organizations like the IMF have.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Bluegoat

[Guest]

International solidarity is one of the pillars of the union movement. I think a lot of people think internationalism is about enjoying each other's food and culture, and taking overseas vacations, but it really isn't. It's about recognizing common aims that transcend national boundaries. And yes, on the basis of class.

 

However, internationalism is decidedly unfashionable around the Western world and I don't see it undergoing much of a resurgence.

I'm going to be honest and say that even as a Humanities major in undergrad, taking a zillion sociology courses, I seriously don't ever remember hearing the term internationalism until this thread. Maybe I did and just forgot, but I had entire semesters on globalization and that that was the new thing and we all had to be there or be square. I had to google internationlism after it was posted here. I have to say this has been a HIGHLY informative thread. We need like a Non-American Politics 101 for some of US folks here. We just weren't taught this stuff. Or I wasn't. I heard the term Shadow Cabinet last night too and had to google that as well!

[FaithManor]

I know you were just joking but Fiji is a country with outright open racism against various ethnic groups, political instability in that it has had multiple coups over the past 20 years, and is in very poor democratic and economic times.

 

Not to pick on you, but this kind of underlines the whole argument when it come to people who don't really know the UK arguing about Brexit - it either becomes an argument about issues in the US - which yes do affect the rest of the world but guess what? My future and my child's future have been thrown in to turmoil with this vote - or is based on assumptions that have nothing to do with reality on the ground.

 

This is a big deal for some of us - it's about more than if London will be become cheap for holidays. It is about potential financial hardship*, it is about lost opportunity, it is about extreme uncertainty and it is about the rise of open racism and yes, outright facism. This vote has screwed over my family's future, and the future of many other families, and it was based on ignorance.

 

 

* A friend was in touch with me, in tears, saying her business will not survive another recession in the UK and if that is the case she will lose her house as well. She has no idea what will become of her family, including her son.

So sorry to offended you so deeply.

 

Clearly you did not truly catch the tongue and cheek, and while you are angry that anyone should suggest this might affect America negatively or have a significant impact on American families, you would be wrong.

 

My brother works for a company on an account heavily vested in the UK. They have decided to not renew the contract which is expiring soon due to the uncertainty created by the Brexit vote and informed him that he will be out of a job next month with only 60 days severence pay. He is just about inconsolable as property values have gone down each year here, never recovering from our last recession. So though he owes less than 50% of what he borrowed to buy his home many years ago, he will probably lose the place.

 

He lives one block from me. My family. People all over the world have the potential to be rocked by this.

 

My deepest sympathies to you and your friend. I hope and pray the worst does not happen. I was naive last Friday when I thought the effects wouldn't be felt here very quickly or severely. I was completely wrong.

 

It is RAW for me too.

 

I still wish there was a paradise escape from the global madness where I could take my family to live im peace and beauty.

[Guest]

Honestly, I only hear about internationalism when at a meeting being addressed by a trade union official. It's not really mainstream politics here either.

 

And I still can't get my head around electoral colleges, so you are not alone in needing a primer for politics in other nations!

Well that's good to know! And I can assure you a healthy number of people here are clueless about the electoral colleges as well. They're at the mercy of the red and blue map and the fast talking anchors. You know one thing I was impressed with that I leaned during the Brexit vote is the prohibition on reporting exit polls. I SO wish they would do that here. It's ridiculous. And they're wrong a lot of the time to boot. It's like it doesn't occur to them that some people might LIE. You might as well have a magic 8 ball.

[madteaparty]

Continuing my delusional bend, I don't think Brexit is actually going to happen.

[Jamee]

Continuing my delusional bend, I don't think Brexit is actually going to happen.

 

I've been thinking this too.  I saw that Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales might have veto power.  Anyone have any info on that?  I also so a quick clip that Spain was wanting Gibraltar since they voted remain too. It's all been very, very interesting. I think the biggest shock is that it went to vote with a simple majority rather than a 2/3.  Doesn't seem like it was very thought out.

[Butter]

I've been thinking this too.  I saw that Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales might have veto power.  Anyone have any info on that?

 

In Wales the majority voted to leave (52%).

 

Scottish parliament does not have formal veto power.  The issue is a clause that may require legislation to remove it and Scotland and N Ireland could attempt to block removal.  It's not known if they actually can succeed in blocking it, though.  IF they do, that could be the end of the UK.  It's more likely Scotland will hold another referendum to become an independent country and this time it is likely to pass (the previous one, the "stay" campaign was largely based on if Scotland left the UK, they'd not be able to be part of the EU, but now that's changed).  Scotland voted 62% to remain.  56% of Northern Ireland voted to remain.

 

It's interesting that the two countries that voted to remain actually do have a possible path to remaining in the EU.  Scotland could become an independent country and N Ireland could potentially unite with ROI.

[Serenade]

 I SO wish they would do that here. It's ridiculous. 

 

 

Me, too.

[TCB]

the UK has always governed itself. They didn't give up sovereignty when they joined the EU. They always had their own national and local government. The US, Canada and Mexico have many, many, MANY trade agreements, border agreements to the point where it is difficult to pick them all apart etc, but we remain separate sovereign nations. Being in the EU isn't like being a state. I've seen some people comparing this to a state seceding from the US, but it isn't the same

 

It isn't the same as a state seceding from the US, but it is also not the same as trade agreements between the US, Canada and Mexico. There is a lot more to it than just trade agreements.