Can we talk about the Brexit vote??

[regentrude]

I think lesser politicians weighing in (and candidates) is more "okay" by international standards. IIRC, Obama said something a week or so ago and it was relatively low key. I doubt he'd come out today and say anything, though I guess I could be wrong. In a few weeks or months once things have shaken out, maybe? But, yeah, bad etiquette for world leaders to be very vocal today about UK's internal affairs.

 

The president made a statement today. As the world would have expected. This goes beyond a UK internal affair.

I fail to see how a balanced and respectful comment like the one below would be "bad etiquette". It is the world leaders' job to react to such events and discuss how this is going to affect everybody.

 

The people of the United Kingdom have spoken, and we respect their decision. The special relationship between the United States and the United Kingdom is enduring, and the United Kingdom’s membership in NATO remains a vital cornerstone of U.S. foreign, security, and economic policy. So too is our relationship with the European Union, which has done so much to promote stability, stimulate economic growth, and foster the spread of democratic values and ideals across the continent and beyond. The United Kingdom and the European Union will remain indispensable partners of the United States even as they begin negotiating their ongoing relationship to ensure continued stability, security, and prosperity for Europe, Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the world.

 

http://fortune.com/2016/06/24/obama-brexit-vote-eu-statement/

 

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by regentrude

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I've been following this in the UK papers but would love to hear something from people that live there and not just politicians. The lack of coverage in the US is ridiculous I think- this is HUGE!

It is headline news on the Washington Post and the New York Times today and I have seen numerous articles on the same in those 2 papers.

[eternalsummer]

In a global world, what happens in Europe will directly affect the US.

It will affect US economy and also has strategic implications .

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/brexit-expected-to-rattle-u-s-economy-shake-its-influence-1466741275

 

Yes, I realize, but the fact remains that it is more significant for say Merkel than it is for Obama, and certainly more significant for your average Frenchman than for the average American.

 

 

I think the implications for the US economy and international relations exist not just because of the Brexit itself but because of some of the factors that led to the Brexit, right?  They did not leave the EU for no reason; they left because the EU is at a point of crisis.   That crisis certainly has international implications, but they would have and will come to a head whether or not the UK is a formal member of the EU.

[eternalsummer]

Also, honestly, I think governance by referendum is just generally a mistake unless it's at the uber local level. The mass electorate imposing mandates and so forth is usually just bad. Elect officials, let them become the experts, let them make the decisions, if you don't like them, vote them out. At least, that's my own feeling about the matter.

 

ETA: To be clear, I find this a repeated problem in many US states generally... I don't know enough about how it works out in UK.

 

Well I think democracy in general is kind of suspect, especially with a very wide franchise, but that is another argument :)

 

As long as we're doing democracy, referendums and the popular vote are okay with me.

[Murphy101]

More importantly than Scotland or Northern Ireland, other EU countries may experience similar referendums to leave the EU; the right is making pretty significant strides in many European countries already, largely as a response to Euro instability and especially the tenuous and controversial immigration situation.

 

Already the right-leaning parties in France, Denmark, the Netherlands, Sweden, etc. are signalling a willingness to raise the issue.

 

 

Personally I thought they'd Remain by a very small margin; certainly the media and celebrities and mainstream politicians, etc. were pretty heavily pushing Remain. It does remind me somewhat of the support for Trump (and to some degree Bernie) - everyone says oh this is ridiculous, the sky will fall if Trump is elected, he's not qualified, etc. - but he has a significant base of support which is not necessarily strictly partisan, and that base doesn't trust what people in positions of power tell them.

To be fair, those countries have been rumbling about it before now too. It's not like Britain is the only country disgruntled with the EU. And it could go the other direction, after seeing this happen in Britain, maybe those other countries (and the EU as a whole) will take the concerns being brought up by the populace wanting to leave seriously and will be more proactive than Britain was in their reaction instead of assuming the populace won't come together to vote for leaving.

[Murphy101]

My phone was digging me with breaking news when the vote came in. Every news station I've turned to is covering it.

 

ETA: which I'm surprised by bc normally I have to go digging for news on anything other than trump and gorillas.ðŸ˜

Edited June 24, 2016 by Murphy101

[Farrar]

Well I think democracy in general is kind of suspect, especially with a very wide franchise, but that is another argument :)

 

As long as we're doing democracy, referendums and the popular vote are okay with me.

 

But we're not really... we're doing a republic. Switzerland is doing a democracy.

 

 

[SporkUK]

Other countries have had referendums to leave the EU and still remained, some repeatedly. Honestly, with how close it was and how torn the Tories are right now, I'm not sure what they're going to do. 

 

With Cameron leaving, we likely won't know what the government plans to do until he is replaced which, by his own account, won't be until October. I think they're waiting to see how things even out over the next few months before making a plan [and the negotiations to leave will take at least 2 years] however, the entire thing is leaving millions in a very vulnerable limbo, and millions more who are scared who the far rights next target will be if the UK leaves and their Brexit dreams don't become reality. I'm far more scared of that than us leaving the EU. That vulnerable limbo, which involves a lot of companies, plus our debts plus potential lack of EU protection on several financial issues is going to send the markets spiraling. 

 

The Remain campaign was awful and complacent and as angry as I am by the downright lies from the far right Leave campaign on this, I am far more upset at how little thought the Remain campaign and many of the big names that spoke out for them thought about the issues. It's like they thought throwing big numbers and telling those with concerns that they were xenophobic racists and comparing them all to Farrage would win people over. That never works, it makes people feel that voting the other way is 'against the establishment'. We needed a big enough voice to go through how all the big fears like housing and immigration and so on show how leaving will negatively affect all of those. We needed a more organized campaign to talk to people not leaflets with quotes - many from people without their knowledge. They were complacent, and it's going to hurt all of us except those elites that'll be fine either way. 

[FairProspects]

Can anyone comment on how the Brexit will affect the LIBOR? I am curious as we are thinking about refinancing soon and I can't find any commentary about it in the media yet.

[redsquirrel]

If the UK dissolves in the next 5 years what does that mean for NATO? Would Scotland and Ireland be asked to join? 

 

Someone asked what happens next.  The Brexit isn't legally binding and Parliament has to do stuff.  Cameron has resigned but will be around until October.  He is leaving this mess for someone else to clean up. So Parliament has to "invoke article 52" , which sounds like something from a cartoon.  Then the UK begins negotiations with the UK to set the terms for their leaving. That isn't happening until there is a new PM.  That might be Boris Johnson, the current mayor of London.

 

Now, there is a chance that the UK could instead renegotiate terms and remain in the EU, but the thought is that the rest of the EU is NOT interested in that. They don't want to set a precedent for members acting out and getting rewarded.  

 

I don't know if things like votes in Scotland or Ireland will happen before or after that, but the EU stuff is predicted to take about 2 years.

Edited June 24, 2016 by redsquirrel

[Laura Corin]

 

The Remain campaign was awful and complacent and as angry as I am by the downright lies from the far right Leave campaign on this, I am far more upset at how little thought the Remain campaign and many of the big names that spoke out for them thought about the issues. It's like they thought throwing big numbers and telling those with concerns that they were xenophobic racists and comparing them all to Farrage would win people over. That never works, it makes people feel that voting the other way is 'against the establishment'. We needed a big enough voice to go through how all the big fears like housing and immigration and so on show how leaving will negatively affect all of those. We needed a more organized campaign to talk to people not leaflets with quotes - many from people without their knowledge. They were complacent, and it's going to hurt all of us except those elites that'll be fine either way. 

 

There's a motion of no confidence in the Labour Leader being tabled, largely because his failure to mount a decent campaign to remain left Labour voters unsure what to do, and unwilling to go with Cameron's favourite option:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36621777

 

Decent leadership from Labour might well have swung the referendum the other way.

 

 

[Butter]

When we Skype my MIL on Sunday we'll have to see what she thinks of all this.  She never really said much either way over the last few weeks.  She's English (from Northamptonshire - the cities where her sisters still live all voted out), but she lives in Ireland.  It was easy when they retired there since she was an EU citizen (FIL was American, but he died about 10 years ago).  So we're curious what, if any, effect this will have on her personally.

[redsquirrel]

Other countries have had referendums to leave the EU and still remained, some repeatedly. Honestly, with how close it was and how torn the Tories are right now, I'm not sure what they're going to do. 

 

With Cameron leaving, we likely won't know what the government plans to do until he is replaced which, by his own account, won't be until October. I think they're waiting to see how things even out over the next few months before making a plan [and the negotiations to leave will take at least 2 years] however, the entire thing is leaving millions in a very vulnerable limbo, and millions more who are scared who the far rights next target will be if the UK leaves and their Brexit dreams don't become reality. I'm far more scared of that than us leaving the EU. That vulnerable limbo, which involves a lot of companies, plus our debts plus potential lack of EU protection on several financial issues is going to send the markets spiraling. 

 

The Remain campaign was awful and complacent and as angry as I am by the downright lies from the far right Leave campaign on this, I am far more upset at how little thought the Remain campaign and many of the big names that spoke out for them thought about the issues. It's like they thought throwing big numbers and telling those with concerns that they were xenophobic racists and comparing them all to Farrage would win people over. That never works, it makes people feel that voting the other way is 'against the establishment'. We needed a big enough voice to go through how all the big fears like housing and immigration and so on show how leaving will negatively affect all of those. We needed a more organized campaign to talk to people not leaflets with quotes - many from people without their knowledge. They were complacent, and it's going to hurt all of us except those elites that'll be fine either way. 

 

 

There's a motion of no confidence in the Labour Leader being tabled, largely because his failure to mount a decent campaign to remain left Labour voters unsure what to do, and unwilling to go with Cameron's favourite option:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36621777

 

Decent leadership from Labour might well have swung the referendum the other way.

 

 

I've heard quite a few supporters of Remain criticize the Remain leaders for just this very thing.  They have been quite vocal about it over the past few weeks. They were pointing out that continuously calling another side racist xenophobes doesn't exactly win hearts and minds.

 

Laura, Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU. Was the Remain campaign any different in Scotland?

[Guest]

Because it is huge and carries many political ramifications. Scotland may revive the independence vote. Northern Ireland may revive push for independence, which could dangerously increase tensions in Northern Ireland.

When UK leaves EU, more burden will fall on Germany, since UK was another one of the few net payers; increasing strong anti-Euro faction may push for Germany leaving the EU. Which would be disastrous for rest of Europe.

 

If you mean it literally financially: my take is that it is neither buy nor sell. It is sit tight and wait.

Weak euro is good for tourists, but for US industries a very strong dollar is problematic.

Yes- I meant US financial markets specifically.

[SporkUK]

Boris Johnson will likely make moves, if not already, for PM -- though the current mayor of London is Sadiq Khan, Johnson lost to him last month which is likely why Johnson started to be a Leave mouthpiece after previously been against leaving, he needed to be relevant and centre of attention again. 

 

It will be interesting to see how the Labour vote goes, though I find it frustrating to put it all on Corbyn particularly as so many knives have been out for him since before he was Labour leader. I know my local Labour MP is going all 'God help us all', but she did nothing other than throw barbs at the Leave camp [both halves of my city and both sides of my wider county voted out, they're usually politically opposite in local and general elections]. 

 

It's all a mess. We need better, more organized leadership but the games of Westminister seem to be against such things. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by SporkUK

[Guest]

It is headline news on the Washington Post and the New York Times today and I have seen numerous articles on the same in those 2 papers.

Well of course today- I'm just talking about the last two months in general coverage. It was lacking. If you polled Americans prior to yesterday about "what is Brexit?" I would be very curious to know how many could've given an accurate response. I would love to be surprised that 90% could have, but I doubt it.

[trulycrabby]

I have to say that this result has really really caught me by surprise; and I have been following Brexit pretty closely. Blindsided, in fact.

 

I think France's economy will grow as a result of this vote as many banks that have offices in the UK will relocate to France.

Edited June 24, 2016 by trulycrabby

[trulycrabby]

Well of course today- I'm just talking about the last two months in general coverage. It was lacking. If you polled Americans prior to yesterday about "what is Brexit?" I would be very curious to know how many could've given an accurate response. I would love to be surprised that 90% could have, but I doubt it.

Many of us have been following it extremely closely in the US. I have been watching and reading about it daily for weeks. I was still blindsided, even though I know how closely the polls ran leading up to the vote.

 

Even our local news covered it, and they pretty much stay out of national news unless it is huge.

Edited June 24, 2016 by trulycrabby

[Murphy101]

It's been covered in the US news prior to today but I suspect most people didn't know what the hell it was. Because it was almost exclusively covered under financial news as "Brexit" with only vague explaination of what that was. I know I had to explain to a relative that it wasn't about a company on the stock market.

 

And horror of horrors, to me anyways, there's more than one US citizen that does not know what the EU or the euro is.

[FaithManor]

I think that if there is going to be a potential of future referendums to leave, referendums that may very well be successful in the wake of this, it will come from Denmark and France. The Danish voters already feel nothing but at best a tenuous putting up with of the EU at best. France, in the wake of the angry turmoil created by the railroading through of huge changes to employee rights by a president and cronies that have fallen out of favor with low income and middle class voters, is I think ripe to consider doing something drastic, and leaving the EU which an increasing number of voters believes costs more money than it is worth may be the radical thing they get behind.

 

My sister lives in Normandly, Caen specifically, and her husband is a French citizen. (She is applying for French citizenship.) Their perspective on this has been interesting as they perceive some serious anger at the EU from their peers, and well, my brother in law is NOT a fan. His father's generation, the kids, teens, and young adults who survived WWII are very pro EU however as their numbers dwindle and the number of low income and lower middle class increases, the imbalance and discontent rises, he believes it is only a matter of time - ie in the next five years - before the French people have the votes to leave and the determination to force their politicians to follow through with it. The recent rioting may indicate that he is right. 

 

I am still trying to learn more about all of this. My knowledge as been admittedly quite sketchy, but while I think in the short term it won't have that much effect on the US, in the long term I think it could as the implications for global trade and NATO come to light. So my posts are nothing more than pure speculation and the results of skype conversations with Sis and brother in law.

[Jane in NC]

Well of course today- I'm just talking about the last two months in general coverage. It was lacking. If you polled Americans prior to yesterday about "what is Brexit?" I would be very curious to know how many could've given an accurate response. I would love to be surprised that 90% could have, but I doubt it.

 

Does this depend on one's choice of media? I regularly listen to BBC World News so of course one heard about Brexit there.  Business publications and programs have been giving the topic a lot of coverage for some time.  We subscribe to Bloomberg Business Week and regularly listen to Marketplace on NPR.

 

I don't watch Cramer and his ilk but it would seem that programs that follow stocks would have been discussing this too.

 

Since what appears as "news" in the States seems more like celebrity coverage, perhaps people here were unaware.  And that is sad if they wonder why their 401-K is tanking today.

 

[Guest]

I think that if there is going to be a potential of future referendums to leave, referendums that may very well be successful in the wake of this, it will come from Denmark and France. The Danish voters already feel nothing but at best a tenuous putting up with of the EU at best. France, in the wake of the angry turmoil created by the railroading through of huge changes to employee rights by a president and cronies that have fallen out of favor with low income and middle class voters, is I think ripe to consider doing something drastic, and leaving the EU which an increasing number of voters believes costs more money than it is worth may be the radical thing they get behind.

 

My sister lives in Normandly, Caen specifically, and her husband is a French citizen. (She is applying for French citizenship.) Their perspective on this has been interesting as they perceive some serious anger at the EU from their peers, and well, my brother in law is NOT a fan. His father's generation, the kids, teens, and young adults who survived WWII are very pro EU however as their numbers dwindle and the number of low income and lower middle class increases, the imbalance and discontent rises, he believes it is only a matter of time - ie in the next five years - before the French people have the votes to leave and the determination to force their politicians to follow through with it. The recent rioting may indicate that he is right.

 

I am still trying to learn more about all of this. My knowledge as been admittedly quite sketchy, but while I think in the short term it won't have that much effect on the US, in the long term I think it could as the implications for global trade and NATO come to light. So my posts are nothing more than pure speculation and the results of skype conversations with Sis and brother in law.

I am very curious to know if this will now have NATO being a bigger part of the discussion here in presidential politics. It's already been a topic, but I feel like now it might be a BIG topic, if that makes sense.

[FaithManor]

I think if you broke the poll down by "what media outlet do you consult for news" then you'd probably find that Americans watching mainstream weren't particularly informed, but those that are NPR, BBC, and PBS people - oh and for me, we also regularly read the Copenhagen Post - were more aware, more informed. Now my version of "more informed" for myself in particular is still more ignorant than I'd like to be about the issue, but I'm learning at least.

 

 

[Pawz4me]

Well of course today- I'm just talking about the last two months in general coverage. It was lacking. If you polled Americans prior to yesterday about "what is Brexit?" I would be very curious to know how many could've given an accurate response. I would love to be surprised that 90% could have, but I doubt it.

 

It's been well covered by most credible news outlets for months now. Even locally in my little area -- there's a talk radio/investment program where it's been discussed quite a lot by a couple of local financial advisers. But certainly it hasn't gotten the screaming headline coverage that Trump has. ;)

 

DS is in Copenhagen doing a business/economics major related study abroad program. He texted this morning and said his professors are stunned. Like most people they apparently expected a close vote but for Remain to win. They're very concerned about Denmark being next.

[Murphy101]

I think that if there is going to be a potential of future referendums to leave, referendums that may very well be successful in the wake of this, it will come from Denmark and France. The Danish voters already feel nothing but at best a tenuous putting up with of the EU at best. France, in the wake of the angry turmoil created by the railroading through of huge changes to employee rights by a president and cronies that have fallen out of favor with low income and middle class voters, is I think ripe to consider doing something drastic, and leaving the EU which an increasing number of voters believes costs more money than it is worth may be the radical thing they get behind.

 

My sister lives in Normandly, Caen specifically, and her husband is a French citizen. (She is applying for French citizenship.) Their perspective on this has been interesting as they perceive some serious anger at the EU from their peers, and well, my brother in law is NOT a fan. His father's generation, the kids, teens, and young adults who survived WWII are very pro EU however as their numbers dwindle and the number of low income and lower middle class increases, the imbalance and discontent rises, he believes it is only a matter of time - ie in the next five years - before the French people have the votes to leave and the determination to force their politicians to follow through with it. The recent rioting may indicate that he is right.

 

I am still trying to learn more about all of this. My knowledge as been admittedly quite sketchy, but while I think in the short term it won't have that much effect on the US, in the long term I think it could as the implications for global trade and NATO come to light. So my posts are nothing more than pure speculation and the results of skype conversations with Sis and brother in law.

My kids were asking why I'm all over the news this morning and why this is important. I am explaining that one day their children will be reading about this in their history books.

 

But it is really difficult to explain to young people all the likely and possible implications. Which is frustrating bc they will likely be the ones who will have to choose a side to fight for if it comes to it.

 

Putin must have the biggest freakin grin he has had in the last decade. 😒

 

And I'm not even a fan of the EU. I get why they wanted it, but it's been a hot mess in the making from the start from my perspective.

[eternalsummer]

I think if you broke the poll down by "what media outlet do you consult for news" then you'd probably find that Americans watching mainstream weren't particularly informed, but those that are NPR, BBC, and PBS people - oh and for me, we also regularly read the Copenhagen Post - were more aware, more informed. Now my version of "more informed" for myself in particular is still more ignorant than I'd like to be about the issue, but I'm learning at least.

 

I dunno, I heard about it on 2 different conservative talk radio shows last week, and they're not even shows I listen to - just scrolling through the AM stations.  

[Lecka]

I have seen it covered, but most of the coverage I have seen assumed that the vote would end in "remain."

 

The Jo Cox tragedy was at the top of my news feeds, for example, too. But a lot of the coverage was more focused on the issue of gun violence, and contrasting the levels of gun violence here (in the US) and there, especially happening around the same time as the tragedy in Orlando.

 

The coverage was not really about Brexit and "what if it happens," and that coverage even came across more like "it is a blow to the leave side," so it was more in the same vein of "remain will win."

 

That is how it has come across to me, anyway. It has come across like "they are having this vote, but it is just to show that the leave side is really a minority and shouldn't be listened to."

Edited June 24, 2016 by Lecka

[Joules]

I think if you broke the poll down by "what media outlet do you consult for news" then you'd probably find that Americans watching mainstream weren't particularly informed, but those that are NPR, BBC, and PBS people - oh and for me, we also regularly read the Copenhagen Post - were more aware, more informed. Now my version of "more informed" for myself in particular is still more ignorant than I'd like to be about the issue, but I'm learning at least.

 

Yes, I've been following the issue pretty closely partly because of the parallels with things here.  Those are my primary news sources though I hit the websites of the more regular stuff: CNN, NBC, and FOX every day.  Brexit has definitely been covered, but not the main headline.

[Joules]

It's been well covered by most credible news outlets for months now. Even locally in my little area -- there's a talk radio/investment program where it's been discussed quite a lot by a couple of local financial advisers. But certainly it hasn't gotten the screaming headline coverage that Trump has. ;)

 

DS is in Copenhagen doing a business/economics major related study abroad program. He texted this morning and said his professors are stunned. Like most people they apparently expected a close vote but for Remain to win. They're very concerned about Denmark being next.

 

I'm betting there are some people in the UK who are really wishing they took the trouble to go out and vote!

[Murphy101]

I have seen it covered, but most of the coverage I have seen assumed that the vote would end in "remain."

 

The Jo Cox tragedy was at the top of my news feeds, for example, too. But a lot of the coverage was more focused on the issue of gun violence, and contrasting the levels of gun violence here (in the US) and there, especially happening around the same time as the tragedy in Orlando.

 

The coverage was not really about Brexit and "what if it happens," and that coverage even came across more like "it is a blow to the leave side," so it was more in the same vein of "remain will win."

 

That is how it has come across to me, anyway. It has come across like "they are having this vote, but it is just to show that the leave side is really a minority and shouldn't be listened to."

That's what I saw too.

 

To sum before the vote:

 

"Oh this brexit thing is no real concern. It's just a few rabble rousers no one takes serious. So financial market is going to be fine."

 

To sum after the vote:

 

"Oh sh!t. How'd that happen?! And wth? You mean there's possible non-financial fallout too?!"

[chiguirre]

Well, it didn't take long for the other shoe to drop and kick Boris in the butt:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/boris-johnson-no-need-haste-eu-exit-negotiations

 

I'm sorry, but once the vote's in you can't just say, "Nothing will change in the short term...". The EU leaders are cracking their knuckles for an exemplary show of nasty negotiating, Scotland's already gearing up for a new independence referendum and the Leavers are saying there's no need for haste. That bright light they see is the train just as it rolls right over them. I can't believe these dudes didn't have a plan in place for the day after! Didn't they learn anything from the whole Greek NO debacle last year? They're going to end up like Alexis Tsipras begging for mercy as Brussels dictates terms. Geez, what political malpractice!

Edited June 24, 2016 by chiguirre

[Lady Florida.]

Well of course today- I'm just talking about the last two months in general coverage. It was lacking. If you polled Americans prior to yesterday about "what is Brexit?" I would be very curious to know how many could've given an accurate response. I would love to be surprised that 90% could have, but I doubt it.

 

I have been reading about it for a few months in online sources, including mainstream ones. I mostly read, BBC News (which I think in the U.S. is actually part of BBC America), NPR and NBC.com and they've each covered it extensively. It hasn't always been on their front page, but I'm not one to only read headlines then ignore the other news. Sometimes I had to click on the World tab to read about it, but I've still been find news about Brexit. I think Americans who didn't know about it didn't bother to know about it. <------ Sadly, that's rather typical of many Americans when it comes to world news. 

 

Does this depend on one's choice of media? I regularly listen to BBC World News so of course one heard about Brexit there.  Business publications and programs have been giving the topic a lot of coverage for some time.  We subscribe to Bloomberg Business Week and regularly listen to Marketplace on NPR.

 

I don't watch Cramer and his ilk but it would seem that programs that follow stocks would have been discussing this too.

 

Yes, I do think one's choice of news sources affects what they'll get to see as news, but I have seen it on mainstream media. We don't have cable and don't subscribe to any print newspapers or news magazines, so if I want to see what a dedicated news source considers news I have to go online. I've seen it covered online in my choice of news sites.

 

 

Since what appears as "news" in the States seems more like celebrity coverage, perhaps people here were unaware.  And that is sad if they wonder why their 401-K is tanking today.

 

Haha! True. CNN used to be in my News bookmark folder and I recently deleted it because I was tired of having to dig through celebrity coverage to find actual news. I've heard it called Celebrity News Network, and for the last couple of years that's certainly been an accurate description IMO. Mainstream it might be, but news it is not. That's a shame really, considering it was the first  dedicated news channel. I remember when it was cutting edge (and considered a bit crazy by network executives) to have a tv channel that only showed news.

[FaithManor]

I dunno, I heard about it on 2 different conservative talk radio shows last week, and they're not even shows I listen to - just scrolling through the AM stations.  

Our local news stations haven't said a word. Just answering these questions from a regional perspective, not all that many of the people in this area watch the world news after the local stations. So even if ABC does a story on it, they aren't seeing it. because they watch ABC local and then turn it off, or simply tune out because they don't seem to care about this kind of thing. When I've talked with people - I'm a regular at our township board meeting as well as 4H council meetings in addition to county commissioner's meetings - what I find is that those that have any interest in world news will check online but the funny thing is they admit to not clicking on the stories except those related to terrorist attacks or the olympics. So it appears that they are concerned about attacks and sports, but not necessarily political and economic news from other countries.

 

In my area of Michigan this is pretty common.

 

I would be interested to know what our Canadian hivers think about all of this. I have missed a few posts on the thread. Have any of them checked in?

[Murphy101]

Two world wars just across the Channel and in the skies overhead within fifty years, and living during them with the imminent threat of invasion, probably had a lot to do with it. It's all very well for us to know in hindsight that the wars would be won and there would be no invasions, but joining a cooperative organisation thereafter seemed like a very good idea to my parents' generation. This was my home town - 81,000 houses destroyed:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bristol+blitz&safe=off&client=firefox-b-ab&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnlsak4sDNAhUoJsAKHS8wDacQsAQIMA&biw=1696&bih=945

 

And this was London:

 

http://bombsight.org/#15/51.5050/-0.0900

 

Those cute Keep Calm and Carry On posters have a not-so-cute provenance:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_Calm_and_Carry_On#Design_and_production

 

I wanted to say thanks for those links. Several of my limited Fb feed has been posting those cutsie keep calm memes and I'm finding it annoying. By all means hysteria is not helpful, but let's not pretend this is not very serious and concerning either.

 

I'm going to link to that wiki in response.🙂

Edited June 24, 2016 by Murphy101

[goldberry]

Boris Johnson will likely make moves, if not already, for PM 

 

OT, but what the heck is up with that guy's hair?   :confused1:   Just saying...

He sure won't be competing with Canada for best-looking world leader...

Edited June 24, 2016 by goldberry

[Laura Corin]

 

I don't know if things like votes in Scotland or Ireland will happen before or after that, but the EU stuff is predicted to take about 2 years.

 

If there is another Scottish Independence referendum, it will be within those two years, so Scotland doesn't have to leave and then ask to join - it might not meet economic requirements......

 

I've heard quite a few supporters of Remain criticize the Remain leaders for just this very thing.  They have been quite vocal about it over the past few weeks. They were pointing out that continuously calling another side racist xenophobes doesn't exactly win hearts and minds.

 

Laura, Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU. Was the Remain campaign any different in Scotland?

 

I don't think that the campaign was much different.  Scots tend to be more left-wing and communitarian, and the Conservative party is tiny.  They also value(d) the EU as a counterbalance to the power of England.

 

Boris Johnson will likely make moves, if not already, for PM -- though the current mayor of London is Sadiq Khan, Johnson lost to him last month which is likely why Johnson started to be a Leave mouthpiece after previously been against leaving, he needed to be relevant and centre of attention again. 

 

 

Not quite.  Boris decided not to run for a third term as London Mayor after having been elected to parliament.  Sadiq Khan ran against Zak Goldsmith.

 

L

Edited June 24, 2016 by Laura Corin

[Murphy101]

OT, but what the heck is up with that guy's hair? :confused1: Just saying...

He sure won't be competing with Canada for best-looking world leader...

So glad I'm not the only one wondering if weird hair is some kind of PM requirement. 😆 Edited June 24, 2016 by Murphy101

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I wanted to say thanks for those links. Several of my limited Fb feed has been posting those cutsie keep calm memes and I'm finding it annoying. By all means hysteria is not helpful, but let's not pretend this is not very serious and concerning either.

 

I'm going to link to that wiki in response.🙂

It is serious. It is concerning mainly because of the uncertainty. However, for those outside the UK, the impact is likely being massively overstated. In general, keep calm is fairly solid advice.

[Bluegoat]

The German chancellor made a statement. I expect other notable European politicians to comment as well.

I do not think it is breach of etiquette to comment on an event that affects the global political situation and directly your own country as well.

Of course, there is not much TO say at this point - regrettable, should stay calm, long process ahead, EU still valuable, need to work together for democracy, blah blah. I mean, what else can a sensible person say? 

Which is also why I don't really see what we would US politicians expect to comment.  

 

Comments I think have been limited in scope though.  It makes sense for  German politician to comment on what the effect would be on Germany or the EU, or a Canadian or American to make some comment on how it might effect economic or trade issues with their country, it's appropriate for a business to comment on what the effect might be in their sector.

 

But when you get into someone like the president of the US, in a public comment, saying whether the people of the UK are better off in our out of the EU, it gets a bit dodgy.  They are a nation, they don't need to decide what is best based on what would be best for any of those groups.  For that matter, they might think that national sovereignty, or something else, is more important than just economic success.  "You British need to stay in the EU" is just overstepping, it would be like telling the people of Switzerland, who clearly do not want to be in the EU, that they should.

 

Beyond that, in the immediate aftermath of a vote like that, no one wants to destabilize things more than necessary.

[Murphy101]

It is serious. It is concerning mainly because of the uncertainty. However, for those outside the UK, the impact is likely being massively overstated. In general, keep calm is fairly solid advice.

Generally I agree. But being concerned and discussing it is not exactly mass hysteria, so filling feeds with "keep calm" seems rather dismissive.

 

And I disagree completely and strongly that those outside the UK are not going to be massively impacted. I think the impact in the states will be more gradual and take longer feel, but I don't think it is overstated to suggest this is going to have massive impact outside the UK.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Generally I agree. But being concerned and discussing it is not exactly mass hysteria, so filling feeds with "keep calm" seems rather dismissive.

 

And I disagree completely and strongly that those outside the UK are not going to be massively impacted. I think the impact in the states will be more gradual and take longer feel, but I don't think it is overstated to suggest this is going to have massive impact outside the UK.

Explain.

[Murphy101]

Maybe this will scare the crap out of enough members in the EU that some major changes will happen to address the concerns causing so many to want out.

 

I'm too pessimistic to think that likely, but contrary enough to still be hopeful.

[SporkUK]

 

Not quite.  Boris decided not to run for a third term as London Mayor after having been elected to parliament.  Sadiq Khan ran against Zak Goldsmith.

 

L

 

You're right, I should have said his party lost. 

 

And now Johnson is backpedalling away with "there is no need for haste" in leaving the EU... and several Brexit politicians are admitting to lying...and people are pointing out that Farage said that in a 52-48 split there would be "unfinished business" and a need for a second referendum [he just assumed that remain would win as well]. 

 

It's all gone weird [though not as odd as Boris Johnson's hair] like no one had any plans for this. 

[Murphy101]

Explain.

So much depends on the meeting Wednesday...

 

I can't even think where to begin at the moment.

 

So far I'm annoyed the only news discussion is about finance. That's sure important, but it's also just a hinge point. It's what that leads to that is most concerning. And no, I don't think the problems will be contained to UK borders.

[Bluegoat]

Our local news stations haven't said a word. Just answering these questions from a regional perspective, not all that many of the people in this area watch the world news after the local stations. So even if ABC does a story on it, they aren't seeing it. because they watch ABC local and then turn it off, or simply tune out because they don't seem to care about this kind of thing. When I've talked with people - I'm a regular at our township board meeting as well as 4H council meetings in addition to county commissioner's meetings - what I find is that those that have any interest in world news will check online but the funny thing is they admit to not clicking on the stories except those related to terrorist attacks or the olympics. So it appears that they are concerned about attacks and sports, but not necessarily political and economic news from other countries.

 

In my area of Michigan this is pretty common.

 

I would be interested to know what our Canadian hivers think about all of this. I have missed a few posts on the thread. Have any of them checked in?

 

My feeling is that for a lot of people who want to leave, it will not have quite the effect they hoped - even as non-members, they will still be very affected by the EU.

 

That is assuming it doesn't start a larger breakdown, and that is something I see as entirely possible.  I don't know that that would be a bad thing - I think there are a lot of elements of the EU that people don't see as working for them, or connected at all to their concerns, or that they have any way to make their concerns count.  I think many people are rightly worried about things like control of their currencies and their economic direction.

 

It seems to me like many people want to stay or go depending largely on what the EU does for them - does it help them assert local power or culture against their own national government?  Or does it prevent that?  The idea of a European identity against a national or regional one is a little tenuous at times, and some seem to have depended on that existing.  But that is not an easy thing to do, to create identity like that - I think for some it's a bit like saying "Canadians, Americans, and Mexicans, you should have a shared identity as North Americans, or people who are all part of a free trade zone."  Saying that would just tick people off I suspect.

 

There is something very appealing to people of all political stripes, I think, with saying - lets brush this away, and start fresh, with a new institution that will work better.  I think it is that much easier when there hasn't been a strong shared cultural identity.  And when you add a situation where it seems hopeless to attempt to change the situation from within, you get many people who will say "Why not. At least there could be a chance of change."  That seemed to be a factor in the Scottish referendum too - some people who might have really just preferred a UK where London wasn't so dominant politically, felt that they had already failed to create that situation, it was just impossible. 

 

I also think this isn't just a right thing.  Not all people on the left are supports of high level type social democracy, there is also a fairly significant, if not large, left movement that tends to prefer low level control and localism.  Those people might actually identify more with the EU in some ways, but not appreciate aspects of its structure or power over lower level governance structures, or things like international trade deals that tend toward libertarian or corporatist structures.

[lailasmum]

I voted to remain. It all feels like a massive mess at the moment. I think there is a real feeling of distaste at how ineffective the remain campaign was and the tone of certain parts of the leave campaign. So many figures that the leave campaign were using seem to be falling apart today. There were physical fights between supporters of each side in the town square of my little rural town last week. Its just got so emotionally charged and unpleasant it's made it hard to see through to the facts. I think there'll be a lot of distrust from the public generally in the deals that are done even if this turns out to be a positive move, it's just stirred up lots of uncomfortable issues. Most of my friends voted remain but even those who voted to leave seem pretty confused and shocked too. I think leave didn't address so many issues that their supporters are feeling nervous too now it's all over.

Edited June 24, 2016 by lailasmum

[Bluegoat]

I also think the idea of leaving not in a rush just makes sense, whether or not people think it is a cop-out, or become impatient.  If anyone is doing something that is such a big change, doing so in a measured and deliberate way seems like a good policy to me.  People make mistakes when they rush, and so do countries.  Just think of something like trade deals - the UK is part of all kinds of them simply because they are part of the EU.  Now they need to decide about them , maybe enter negotiations.  That kind of stuff will take time.

[FaithManor]

So much depends on the meeting Wednesday...

 

I can't even think where to begin at the moment.

 

So far I'm annoyed the only news discussion is about finance. That's sure important, but it's also just a hinge point. It's what that leads to that is most concerning. And no, I don't think the problems will be contained to UK borders.

There are definitely other issues for certain. The landscape could get dicey. Ireland could vote for re-unification, and Scotland if it votes for independence - I think that has a greater chance of passing now as the country is already a near 50/50 split so this may swing some votes pro-leaving the UK - would not necessarily have to join the EU as long as it has its ducks in a row before that two year negotiation mark expires. I think they would find support and backing from Ireland, and a unified Ireland not a member of the UK yet a member of the EU, it is going to be a historic "what the heck" for Britain. How that will play out in terms of allegiances is hard to say.

 

One thing I wonder about with the Denmark issue is control of North Atlantic shipping. Denmark controls that one all important strait, and they already charge a premium for the use of it, can't imagine how they might stick it to EU countries if they withdraw, and if that would end well. On top of all of this, there is Putin, and frankly he is such an $$#@@#$%$^$$ one can only imagine what he will do if he thinks this is at all a destabilizing European event. He is, in my opinion, a volatile, unpredictable, power hungry, opportunist. I don't know enough about this yet to know if there is any angle of Brexit that he could use to his advantage, but if there is anything he could exploit to nefarious ends, he'd be the one to find it.  

[Mabelen]

I also think the idea of leaving not in a rush just makes sense, whether or not people think it is a cop-out, or become impatient. If anyone is doing something that is such a big change, doing so in a measured and deliberate way seems like a good policy to me. People make mistakes when they rush, and so do countries. Just think of something like trade deals - the UK is part of all kinds of them simply because they are part of the EU. Now they need to decide about them , maybe enter negotiations. That kind of stuff will take time.

Well, yes, no rushing, but no delaying either. This is what European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, European Council President Donald Tusk, European Parliament President Martin Schulz, and Dutch PM Mark Rutte have to say about that:

 

"We now expect the United Kingdom government to give effect to this decision of the British people as soon as possible, however painful that process may be. Any delay would unnecessarily prolong uncertainty."

[Lady Florida.]

Well, yes, no rushing, but no delaying either. This is what European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, European Council President Donald Tusk, European Parliament President Martin Schulz, and Dutch PM Mark Rutte have to say about that:

 

"We now expect the United Kingdom government to give effect to this decision of the British people as soon as possible, however painful that process may be. Any delay would unnecessarily prolong uncertainty."

 

It sounds like they're saying, "You did this. Now own it." I can't really blame them.