s/o Drunking and rape thread-Porn

[frogger]

There were a lot of topics in the other thread but what really surprised me was the lack of even the word "Porn" once, although I may have missed it.  There were a lot of pages. I'm curious why. 

 

The reason I say that is because the discussion did turn, at times, to what society teaches boys. I do have a hard time with the word society. Certainly what is taught in my home is not taught in all homes. The actions and attitudes of parents even within the dimensions of this group (which is much smaller probably than society at large) are going to be very different.  Some people are very religious and some are not for lack of a better description.

 

 

People (both boys and girls) can accidentally see something  even with computers in our home. Certainly it is easier to seek out than ever before if you are interested in it.  Sometimes what is being accessed on the web is not even just a picture of a pretty girl but can be sick and degrading, torturous and abuse. Sometimes kids get pulled in. What starts as a mere child seeing something may become an obsession.  It is hard for me to imagine an average child suddenly wanting to do the things that are available to watch. But if they continue to view it it can change their view of normalcy and it certainly turns women into objects rather than humans. What most evil requires is that empathy being turned off. That thinking that this person isn't human rather than empathizing with, "How would you feel?".  You read about crimes that you wonder how anyone could get themselves to do such things when it would make others sick. 

 

I suppose it is dangerous to start another thread but it really surprised me when I thought back about it and the whole teaching our boys thing that is wasn't mentioned at all. Perhaps there were just too many other things being talked about. 

 

 

[SproutMamaK]

I'm about as anti-porn as you can get... but I don't think it's related to rape. Let's face it, 99% of college guys are watching porn, and most of them don't become rapists. I believe as you do that porn slowly degrades women in the minds of men, seeing them (at first glance, at least) as nothing but objects. But seeing something as object does not, in the minds of most men, equate to seeing it as an object that they have a right to, any more than seeing a cool power tool in the store makes them think they have the right to steal it. Porn is an easy sexual outlet. Rape isn't about sex at all; it's about power. While I have a LOT of problems with porn, I don't believe it feeds the same impulses that lead some people to rape.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't know.  I think...these guys can find willing sexual partners, but instead they go and find someone incapacitated or force people.  Not sure how that is related to porn exactly.  To me it's more about control and power rather than just sex.

 

 

[Katy]

I'm about as anti-porn as you can get... but I don't think it's related to rape. Let's face it, 99% of college guys are watching porn, and most of them don't become rapists. I believe as you do that porn slowly degrades women in the minds of men, seeing them (at first glance, at least) as nothing but objects. But seeing something as object does not, in the minds of most men, equate to seeing it as an object that they have a right to, any more than seeing a cool power tool in the store makes them think they have the right to steal it. Porn is an easy sexual outlet. Rape isn't about sex at all; it's about power. While I have a LOT of problems with porn, I don't believe it feeds the same impulses that lead some people to rape.

 

I agree.  But this is an interesting spin-off.  If you cannot consent to sex while under the influence, and most porn-stars and strippers are under the influence to do their jobs...  can they really give consent to that work?  Just another moral issue with porn.

[ktgrok]

I'm against porn. I think it degrades women, that it often leads to trafficking or abuse, and that it does objectify women. But, I think that porn isn't going to turn a boy who has been raised properly into a rapist. 

 

I also think some people miss that there is a HUGE difference between BDSM that is consenual and rape. Plenty of people are into such things, and yet appalled by rape. Now, adolescents with no real world knowledge might not get that, and again, I'm against porn, but would not want certain role playing to be confused as pseudo rape. 

[Georgiana Daniels]

I agree.  But this is an interesting spin-off.  If you cannot consent to sex while under the influence, and most porn-stars and strippers are under the influence to do their jobs...  can they really give consent to that work?  Just another moral issue with porn.

 

I didn't realize this.

[Scarlett]

I just watched a clip the other day of Ted Bundy discussing how his porn addiction was instrumental in all the sick things he did.

 

I think porn doesn't affect all men that way.....but I definitely believe it does some.

[jeninok]

We talk a lot about porn here. How something like the magazines his grandad has (seriously like 40 years of playboy, thankfully now well hidden) is very different than the porn he will find online.

That the stuff online is degrading, related to trafficking and not at all what it is like in the real world.

 

I think shows like Game of Thrones can be more damaging in that they are widely accepted and loved by a huge amount of people, but use women as set design and so.much.rape.

 

We don't watch it here, I got through a couple episodes at the beginning but between the rape and the killing of the wolves I couldn't do it.

 

We totally watched Jessica Jones though, which many find dark or violent, however she is one of the best fully realized women I've seen in a show.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm against porn. I think it degrades women, that it often leads to trafficking or abuse, and that it does objectify women. But, I think that porn isn't going to turn a boy who has been raised properly into a rapist. 

 

I also think some people miss that there is a HUGE difference between BDSM that is consenual and rape. Plenty of people are into such things, and yet appalled by rape. Now, adolescents with no real world knowledge might not get that, and again, I'm against porn, but would not want certain role playing to be confused as pseudo rape. 

 

This leads to another thing I wonder about.  Is it entirely about someone being raised properly?  If you consider the fact that some people have particular sexual preferences or things they get off on, maybe in some cases it's not just because of a lousy upbringing.

 

We are horrified by pedophiles, but they legitimately are sexually attracted to children.  There is no cure.  Nobody raised them to be that way.  Best they can do is treat it like alcoholism and continue to work hard not to do it.

 

There are some VERY bizarre sexual preferences out there.  I think some people would be very surprised by them.  Even stuff like people being attracted to having sex with corpses.  I doubt anyone raised them to be that way. 

 

 

 

 

[Laurie]

This reminds me of something that happened in our home a month or so ago.  It was right before 7pm on a Friday evening.  I was making dinner, and my daughter was watching tv in the adjoining family room. She was waiting for the cartoon "Hey Arnold" to start.  Then my daughter calls to me to come see something on tv.  When I get there,  I see women in fishnet outfits writhing around, touching themselves.  There's a "teen nick" label on the screen while this music video is on.   I told her to turn it off.

Later that evening, I go to the Nickelodeon website to find out what's up with that!  It looked like porn to me.  It turns out that it's some singer named Megan Trainor singing a song called "No."  So I find another website with the lyrics to the song.  She's telling other girls that before they tell a boy "No" they should lick their lips and swing their hips!   Well, if that's what she thinks, then I think she's an idiot!  (Yep, there's that word again.)

 

Who in the world thinks it's appropriate to put that on a kids' television network???   How does that music video affect the boys and girls who see it while they were waiting for "Hey Arnold" to start????

[Tammi K]

 Let's face it, 99% of college guys are watching porn,

 

Really?  Is this statistical or just hyperbole? 

[Catalytic]

This leads to another thing I wonder about.  Is it entirely about someone being raised properly?  If you consider the fact that some people have particular sexual preferences or things they get off on, maybe in some cases it's not just because of a lousy upbringing.

 

We are horrified by pedophiles, but they legitimately are sexually attracted to children.  There is no cure.  Nobody raised them to be that way.  Best they can do is treat it like alcoholism and continue to work hard not to do it.

 

There are some VERY bizarre sexual preferences out there.  I think some people would be very surprised by them.  Even stuff like people being attracted to having sex with corpses.  I doubt anyone raised them to be that way. 

 

In nearly everything "bad" someone does, social media jumps on "well if they had been raised properly/spanked/etc"...it really makes me cringe to see all parents judged that way.

 

I realize that yes, upbringing should have a huge impact on children, but everything cannot be blamed on that imo.

[Farrar]

I don't have a problem with p@rn*** per se.

 

I am against coercion, rape, exploitation, or abuse of anyone in the sex worker industry.

 

I am extremely wary of the state of p*rn on the internet today, especially because it has, as I understand it, become so extreme and, frankly, weird.

 

I'm concerned about kids seeing repeated p*rn (I say repeated just to be clear that I honestly don't think a 10 yo who stumbles on dirty pictures or sees a few seconds of video is typically scarred for life by any stretch). I talk to my kids about how to avoid p*rn online and about why. Specifically, we've talked about how bodies on the internet aren't always real and about how sex on the internet is also not necessarily how sex is. And how seeing that stuff without any context for what's normal can warp your expectations of what's normal and make it hard to enjoy normal sex when they're older and actually ready for it.

 

But I don't think p*rn is inherently evil. It's like drinking. Don't drink if you like. Stay away from the bathtub gin and the moonshine that may give you brain damage. Don't overindulge. But if you like a glass of wine or beer occasionally, hey.

 

I think there are two potential links to rape.

 

On the one hand... Kids who see p*rn and get warped expectations about sex could be more likely to rape. There's a lot of non-consensual (whether actual or staged) p*rn online. If you watch that and get wired to think that's the way it should be, I think that's a problem.

 

On the other hand... I think part of the reason that we have such a problem with rape culture is that our society as a whole has a deeply unhealthy attitude toward sex. I think the message that sex is mysterious, forbidden, bad, etc. does not lead to healthy relationships or healthy attitudes toward sex. I think the message that girls need to cover up and boys will be boys can sometimes go right alongside the whole "p*rn is bad bad bad!" message. It's a message of shame and sex. And that is part of our problem. We need to be more open about sex in our society if we want to get better at preventing rape. We have to be willing to talk more about sex, especially healthy sex, in order to help young men understand what that looks like. I don't know how you do that - how you get sex positive - while also being blanket condemning of all things pornographic.

 

So... I think there's two tiers to that link and they're in opposite directions in some ways, but both are about making a healthier view of sex across society.

 

 

 

 

 

*** (typing it weird because as I understand it, this is a word than can garner extra spambot attention if used too much).

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

In nearly everything "bad" someone does, social media jumps on "well if they had been raised properly/spanked/etc"...it really makes me cringe to see all parents judged that way.

 

I realize that yes, upbringing should have a huge impact on children, but everything cannot be blamed on that imo.

 

Well and even if there is an element of upbringing.  Your parents share genes and epigenetic factors with you.  If there is a propensity towards certain behaviors there's a propensity.

 

This is not to say there is no point in trying to change things. It's just what exactly are we up against when trying to change it?

Edited June 8, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[SparklyUnicorn]

oh dang wrong word...editing...

 

hopefully nobody saw that

 

[SproutMamaK]

Really?  Is this statistical or just hyperbole? 

 

Just hyperbole. The only thing even resembling a non-partisan source for stats seems to say around 70% of men regularly watch porn, but that's men of all ages. I'd actually be quite interested to know the real stats on that, but I can't seem to find anything that's not from a religious-based anti-pornography organization. (Not to say that I'm against those organizations, but I don't trust the bias of their stats.)

[Guest]

I think porn certainly feeds an appetite if someone has it in him to harm women. And, I think there are more men who are interested in harming women than we want to admit.

 

But I don't think porn can turn a regular dude into a rapist.

[SKL]

Do you think that a person who doesn't see porn is less likely to rape?

 

Honestly the thought of porn never came up in my head, but that could be because I don't have anything to do with it, never have, never will.  I think porn is disgusting and I'm against it on the basis of exploitation, even if crimes aren't involved (though we know they sometimes are).  But I am not sure I'm seeing the connection between porn and rape.  In fact, logic says that if you look at porn, you get used to the idea that you can look but not touch.  So I'm not sure how that translates to "I'm entitled to look and touch and more."

 

And if the guy really just felt lust, he could have had consensual sex with some willing partner, I'm guessing.  He was looking for something else.  Something he knew he wasn't entitled to IMO.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah kinda like violent video games.  Lots of people play them and they don't go and shoot up schools.  Some play them and go shoot up schools. 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[ktgrok]

I want to take back what I said about "raised properly". I just meant that in as much as we can influence how someone turns out, however that may be, I don't think porn will negate all of that. That's all. 

 

I think there is much we don't know about how sexual predators become that way. 

[poppy]

This reminds me of something that happened in our home a month or so ago. It was right before 7pm on a Friday evening. I was making dinner, and my daughter was watching tv in the adjoining family room. She was waiting for the cartoon "Hey Arnold" to start. Then my daughter calls to me to come see something on tv. When I get there, I see women in fishnet outfits writhing around, touching themselves. There's a "teen nick" label on the screen while this music video is on. I told her to turn it off.

Later that evening, I go to the Nickelodeon website to find out what's up with that! It looked like porn to me. It turns out that it's some singer named Megan Trainor singing a song called "No." So I find another website with the lyrics to the song. She's telling other girls that before they tell a boy "No" they should lick their lips and swing their hips! Well, if that's what she thinks, then I think she's an idiot! (Yep, there's that word again.)

 

Who in the world thinks it's appropriate to put that on a kids' television network??? How does that music video affect the boys and girls who see it while they were waiting for "Hey Arnold" to start????

 

In the song she is clearly saying no to a guy hitting on her -- asking for her number or to dance. (It's not no in the bedroom) . As pop songs go it is not explicit. I don't really remember the video much except that it's a 90's throwback vibe.

[Mergath]

I think the conservative, fundamentalist Christian culture teaching boys that they turn into raving, sex-crazed beasts if women show their knees or cleavage probably just does as much toward turning boys into rapists as does porn. Probably more so. When you teach boys that girls who don't dress according to your view of "modesty" are unworthy of respect, don't be surprised when those same boys treat some girls with complete disrespect and eventually see them as so worthless that the idea of raping them doesn't seem wrong. I mean, we've got teachers equating sexually active girls to chewed gum. Of course the boys internalize these ideas, and of course it changes how they view and treat women.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I want to take back what I said about "raised properly". I just meant that in as much as we can influence how someone turns out, however that may be, I don't think porn will negate all of that. That's all. 

 

I think there is much we don't know about how sexual predators become that way. 

 

For all we know, they could be born that way.  Pedophiles are probably born that way.

 

I do think an extreme upbringing would make anyone messed up, but there is messed up and then there is crazy and dangerous. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think the conservative, fundamentalist Christian culture teaching boys that they turn into raving, sex-crazed beasts if women show their knees or cleavage probably just does as much toward turning boys into rapists as does porn. Probably more so. When you teach boys that girls who don't dress according to your view of "modesty" are unworthy of respect, don't be surprised when those same boys treat some girls with complete disrespect and eventually see them as so worthless that the idea of raping them doesn't seem wrong. I mean, we've got teachers equating sexually active girls to chewed gum. Of course the boys internalize these ideas, and of course it changes how they view and treat women.

 

Look at the Duggar kid.  Despite the intense anti sex upbringing he obviously has something going on.  Other siblings don't.  They were all raised in a similar environment.

[Mergath]

Look at the Duggar kid.  Despite the intense anti sex upbringing he obviously has something going on.  Other siblings don't.  They were all raised in a similar environment.

 

How do we know the other kids haven't done anything similar? It's not like the Duggars are going to advertise it.

[amsunshine]

In the song she is clearly saying no to a guy hitting on her -- asking for her number or to dance. (It's not no in the bedroom) . As pop songs go it is not explicit. I don't really remember the video much except that it's a 90's throwback vibe.

 

I haven't seen the video, but the song is definitely about a woman saying "No" to a guy hitting on her.  I interpret it as a girl power song.  But I'd imagine the video is pretty colorful as Megan Trainor is that kind of performer.  Now I'm interested....

 

eta:  Ok, now I've seen the video on YouTube.  Yeah, maybe not the most ideal thing to be showing on a children's channel when younger kids might be watching.  I didn't think it was pornographic, though -- maybe just a little racy.  YMMV.

Edited June 8, 2016 by amsunshinetemp

[Misha]

If you cannot consent to sex while under the influence, and most porn-stars and strippers are under the influence to do their jobs...  can they really give consent to that work?  

I have to disagree with this. I knew a lot of strippers and go go dancers during college and none of them were under the influence. 

 

I think, like anything else, it depends on the person. There are plenty of white collar professionals who are under the influence during business hours too. 

[poppy]

I have to disagree with this. I knew a lot of strippers and go go dancers during college and none of them were under the influence. 

 

I think, like anything else, it depends on the person. There are plenty of white collar professionals who are under the influence during business hours too. 

 

I knew several strippers in college too.   They definitely didn't do the job under duress.  It was just a job.  It's fewer hours and a lot more money than being a waitress. If you don't know, strip clubs hire bouncers to remind customers about proper boundaries with the employees. 

[frogger]

Do you think that a person who doesn't see porn is less likely to rape?

 

Honestly the thought of porn never came up in my head, but that could be because I don't have anything to do with it, never have, never will.  I think porn is disgusting and I'm against it on the basis of exploitation, even if crimes aren't involved (though we know they sometimes are).  But I am not sure I'm seeing the connection between porn and rape.  In fact, logic says that if you look at porn, you get used to the idea that you can look but not touch.  So I'm not sure how that translates to "I'm entitled to look and touch and more."

 

And if the guy really just felt lust, he could have had consensual sex with some willing partner, I'm guessing.  He was looking for something else.  Something he knew he wasn't entitled to IMO.

 

 

I think there is a huge leap between saying a grown man who watches porn will turn into always turn into a rapist (which I think most of us would find a ridiculous statement) and that it could be an influence on a young man (I think especially pre-teens) on going the wrong direction in their thinking about women and their ability to think of women not as fellow humans but objects to please them.  The thing that made me think of it is that there were many many statements about raising boys right. I'm not implying we should make laws about it. It isn't something you can control anyway. But parents I think do have more ability to limit  access to it when children are young and warn older teens (who need to start taking more responsibility for their own life). 

 

Even if we could statistically tease out that people who consistently view porn are more likely than people who don't to someday rape someone it would be only a correlation. After all, do they consistently view (I'm tempted to say specifically hard porn) because they already have inclinations to doing such things whereas men who don't aren't as drawn to it or is it because they consistently view it. So I don't think you can prove it one way or another but it makes sense that those myriad of connections made in the brain are going to be affected by porn regardless of what you find moral. I find it highly unlikely that a young boy that watches porn is going to just listen to his parent's lecture and not be affected by it. 

 

An influence doesn't make you do anything. But that doesn't mean that influences don't add up to a bad trajectory which seems to be what a lot of people were implying on the other thread. 

 

I would say the best determinant is to make it very very costly to do for the rapist. Would he rethink it if it meant he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison? I don't know but it does seem like some of them would.  Obviously, he is already thinking  of himself so I put in a completely different thread because I kept hearing the fact that parents aren't raising their boys right. That is a very vague notion.  I think I'm raising my boy right and probably won't change what I'm doing but I'm curious what they mean by that. 

[jeninok]

I think it is the boys will be boys mentality combined with constant over objectification and sexualization of girls and women.

Combine that with patriarchal ideas that girls are responsible for the boys behavior (dress codes for example) and easy access to very degrading porn and you have a powder keg of women as less than human.

 

The way we respond differently to boys vs girls starts in the womb, with pregnant mothers to boy eating more calories.

 

http://www.medicaldaily.com/gender-stereotypes-baby-cries-parental-behavior-383265

"The finding that men assume that boy babies are in more discomfort than girl babies with the same pitched cry may indicate that this sort of gender stereotyping is more ingrained in men,†said senior author and professor Nicolas Mathevon. “It may even have direct implications for babies' immediate welfare: if a baby girl is in intense discomfort and her cry is high-pitched, her needs might be more easily overlooked when compared with a boy crying at the same pitch.â€

 

Porn alone doesn't cause rape, but it is likely a contributing factor among many in a culture obsessed with both sex and religious virtue.

 

Think about all the boobs/cleavage we see in media on a daily basis, and yet breastfeeding mom's are often harassed and shamed in public.

 

Non sexual breasts aren't there for the consumption of men and it makes them (and women trapped in this paradigm) deeply uncomfortable.

 

If you live in a culture where women are seen as objects of consumption, why not take what you want?

It is rampant capitalism at its worst.

[DesertBlossom]

I absolutely think it's related to porn. You can't spend hours objectifying women on screen for your own personal gratification without beginning to see all or most women as objects. Sure, not all porn-viewers turn into rapists. But what was the statistic where 30-40% of men admitted they would rape a woman if there was no chance they'd get caught? That's scary.

 

I also read an article about how a rather large l percentage of teenage girls experienced some degree of violent or aggressive sex in otherwise consensual encounters, presumably because these boys are taking their sexual cues from pornography. Much of which is very violent and perverse.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I absolutely think it's related to porn. You can't spend hours objectifying women on screen for your own personal gratification without beginning to see all or most women as objects. Sure, not all porn-viewers turn into rapists. But what was the statistic where 30-40% of men admitted they would rape a woman if there was no chance they'd get caught? That's scary.

 

I also read an article about how a rather large l percentage of teenage girls experienced some degree of violent or aggressive sex in otherwise consensual encounters, presumably because these boys are taking their sexual cues from pornography. Much of which is very violent and perverse.

Hard to defend that position when rape was just as prevalent prior to porn being as easily accessible.

[jeninok]

But isn't porn just one more example of women as object and commodity.

Same as its always been? Although now with instant access to view and with an extra edge of harmful and exploitative?

[DesertBlossom]

Hard to defend that position when rape was just as prevalent prior to porn being as easily accessible.

 

Was it though?

[LMD]

I do absolutely think that porn - especially modern porn, in terms of access to quantity and the violence - adds to the rape culture.

 

Here's an article, a recent survey and report from my country about the impact of porn on young adolescents.

 

Eta-link. Duh

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2016/03/07/4420147.htm

Edited June 9, 2016 by LMD

[jeninok]

That article is heart breaking.

[DesertBlossom]

I think the message that sex is mysterious, forbidden, bad, etc. does not lead to healthy relationships or healthy attitudes toward sex. I think the message that girls need to cover up and boys will be boys can sometimes go right alongside the whole "p*rn is bad bad bad!" message. It's a message of shame and sex. And that is part of our problem. We need to be more open about sex in our society if we want to get better at preventing rape. We have to be willing to talk more about sex, especially healthy sex, in order to help young men understand what that looks like. I don't know how you do that - how you get sex positive - while also being blanket condemning of all things pornographic.

 

So... I think there's two tiers to that link and they're in opposite directions in some ways, but both are about making a healthier view of sex across society.

 

 

 

 

 

*** (typing it weird because as I understand it, this is a word than can garner extra spambot attention if used too much).

 

JMO here, but I think our culture today is plenty open about sex. My parents' generation wasn't. But right now? There are subcultures that may fit that description, but our society (particularly media) is very open about sex. I don't think we can blame rape culture on prudishness. We see sex everywhere like it's not a big deal. Everyone does it. P0rnography is increasingly violent and perpetuates this myth that average women like rough, violent sex and that maybe they even fantasize about being raped.

[DesertBlossom]

I do absolutely think that porn - especially modern porn, in terms of access to quantity and the violence - adds to the rape culture.

 

Here's an article, a recent survey and report from my country about the impact of porn on young adolescents.

 

Eta-link. Duh

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2016/03/07/4420147.htm

 Yes, exactly. It is so disturbing. 

[Katy]

I seriously doubt anyone is born a pedophile.  Most of them were abused themselves.  They were groomed, seduced into it. Fetishes are created where excitement and forbidden coincide.

 

I've had several friends who were club go-go dancers, and a few who were strippers.  There's a difference between dancing in a cage in a club and lap dances, and the friends who were strippers said they were almost always wasted all the time to deal with it.  Perhaps the difference is in the type of woman choosing that field and why - doing it because you feel you have no choice to support your kids and doing it as a pro-sex feminist to avoid college loans are probably worlds apart in terms of emotional states.

 

I've read about 6 books by former sex workers too - strippers, porn stars, etc.  All but the high-end escorts discussed at length how almost everyone was inebriated all the time, just to deal.  Perhaps it was hyperbole, but I didn't get that impression. Then again, perhaps you don't write books like that unless you need the catharsis of dealing with guilt.  Guilt you wouldn't have if you were happy about it.

[Farrar]

JMO here, but I think our culture today is plenty open about sex. My parents' generation wasn't. But right now? There are subcultures that may fit that description, but our society (particularly media) is very open about sex. I don't think we can blame rape culture on prudishness. We see sex everywhere like it's not a big deal. Everyone does it. P0rnography is increasingly violent and perpetuates this myth that average women like rough, violent sex and that maybe they even fantasize about being raped.

 

Attitudes have changed, but we're so conflicted. Abstinence only education that's full of misinformation? Chastity vows and purity pledges and rings? The liberalness with which words like slut are bandied around for women. Yes, there's one streak in our culture that's oversexed and another that's still harkening back to our Puritan roots. I think it's that disconnect of sex everywhere while also being told no sex that makes things so difficult. I do think that's one factor that's part of rape culture.

 

I agree that the violence in a lot of p*rn is a problem as well, especially its role in shaping young minds. But I don't think all consumption of p*rn is a problem by any stretch.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Was it though?

Yes.

[Farrar]

I think the conservative, fundamentalist Christian culture teaching boys that they turn into raving, sex-crazed beasts if women show their knees or cleavage probably just does as much toward turning boys into rapists as does porn. Probably more so. When you teach boys that girls who don't dress according to your view of "modesty" are unworthy of respect, don't be surprised when those same boys treat some girls with complete disrespect and eventually see them as so worthless that the idea of raping them doesn't seem wrong. I mean, we've got teachers equating sexually active girls to chewed gum. Of course the boys internalize these ideas, and of course it changes how they view and treat women.

 

Yes, yes, yes. Exactly.

 

So then when people say, oh, we're so liberal about sex now. Clearly we're plenty liberal, it's like, but we're giving many kids these really mixed messages. Many people - parents, teachers in public schools, books, etc. - are telling them this stuff, like that women who have sex are like chewed gum. And meanwhile our media sells sex constantly everywhere. It's a mess.

[SKL]

So they would have to be able to prove a strong correlation between being raised puritanical and being a rapist, right?  Does this research exist?

 

I don't think the US is so puritanical any more.  Maybe in some small groups, but generally no.  In my observation, rapists aren't coming from predominantly conservative holy-roller households.

 

So no, I think it is out there to say rape happens because women don't have sexual freedom or however that logic goes.  Maybe 50 years ago, but not now.

 

Does anyone know whether the incidence of rape (assuming no change in definition of rape) has increased or decreased over the past 50 years or so?

 

ETA the couple things I found by googling showed that there was an increase (in forcible rape) from about 1960-1990 but then a decrease since then.  This could be related to the baby boom bubble.

Edited June 9, 2016 by SKL

[poppy]

I do absolutely think that porn - especially modern porn, in terms of access to quantity and the violence - adds to the rape culture.

 

Here's an article, a recent survey and report from my country about the impact of porn on young adolescents.

 

Eta-link. Duh

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2016/03/07/4420147.htm

 

I want to hand every one of those girls a copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves.  It seemed like such a ridiculous book to me as a teen. But it really does make you [the young girl reader] think about your own fulfillment and pleasure and emotional experience as important parts of your life.  Because they are! And  it makes a variety of experiences all seem ok. Everything from being really intense to being apathetic / uninterested is talked about nonjudgmental.  I also  remember line drawings of all kinds of different ways women's breasts  (and other parts) look that are all normal.  I don't know if girls today have anything like that today.

[SparklyUnicorn]

How do we know the other kids haven't done anything similar? It's not like the Duggars are going to advertise it.

 

We don't, but I suspect it would have come out or will come out if that is the case.  They are scrutinized publicly.  It's a little more difficult to get away with stuff.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I seriously doubt anyone is born a pedophile.  Most of them were abused themselves.  They were groomed, seduced into it. Fetishes are created where excitement and forbidden coincide.

 

 

Read the research.....

 

Would probably be an easier situation to deal with if it weren't a case of being born with it.  You could potentially change the behavior through behavior modification techniques.  None of those things have been successful for pedophilia.   Like other sexual orientations. 

[Joanne]

JMO here, but I think our culture today is plenty open about sex. My parents' generation wasn't. But right now? There are subcultures that may fit that description, but our society (particularly media) is very open about sex. I don't think we can blame rape culture on prudishness. We see sex everywhere like it's not a big deal. Everyone does it. P0rnography is increasingly violent and perpetuates this myth that average women like rough, violent sex and that maybe they even fantasize about being raped.

 

Sex and sexuality are depicted more than earlier generations; I agree.

 

But it doesn't play out as women having power and freedom. We are still held to a victorian (and often religious) standard.

[Joanne]

I am not against porn in theory. Porn has existed since the  beginning of time as what appears to be an expression of sexual energy.

 

I am, however, against what is currently the porn (and sex) industry. I don't see that industry getting better; the dyshealth is too entrenched.

 

I don't believe is causes rape culture - but I do believe the content of it reflects rape culture.

 

I also think it is important to make a distinction between porn viewing and porn addiction. They are not synonymous.

 

 

[Mergath]

We don't, but I suspect it would have come out or will come out if that is the case.  They are scrutinized publicly.  It's a little more difficult to get away with stuff.

 

I don't know, I think after the mess with Josh basically destroyed their source of income, they're going to be hardcore about keeping any potential scandals under wraps. They still have kids who haven't yet hit puberty, so it's not like there isn't the potential for more sexually messed up kids to do who-knows-what.

[Mergath]

I am not against porn in theory. Porn has existed since the  beginning of time as what appears to be an expression of sexual energy.

 

I am, however, against what is currently the porn (and sex) industry. I don't see that industry getting better; the dyshealth is too entrenched.

 

I don't believe is causes rape culture - but I do believe the content of it reflects rape culture.

 

I also think it is important to make a distinction between porn viewing and porn addiction. They are not synonymous.

 

I'm tempted to do a search for "ethical porn" just to see if it exists but Google thinks I'm weird enough already. :P