Is it possible to talk about marriage/roles without

[JennifersLost]

freaking me out by going too "Christian", LOL? And I mean that in the nicest possible way!

 

I feel that my marriage has a strong foundation of love and respect. I can honestly say that I feel very loved, even cherished. Dh and I can talk for hours, and usually find ways to sort out our issues.

 

And yet I feel that our marriage isn't everything that it could be. I think we have a lot of the usual complaints. I also think we both have the desire for the best possible marriage.

 

So I have two questions: what is the best book of marriage advice you've read? And do you believe that in this day and age it is possible to simply be "wifely". I mean, I keep (inadvertently) reading advice books that basically say let your man be a man; trust him...and that horrible "s" word (you know the one). I have a sort of fascinated yet repelled response to all of that. Would that really make our lives better? Is a man trustworthy to that extent? What does it all mean, LOL?

 

I don't always feel fully engaged by marriage, but I'd like to be. It's sort of like everything else in my life: it's all right there! Right there! But somehow I'm separate from it. Does that make sense?

 

Any suggestions are welcome!

[nmoira]

The best book on the subject I've read without a doubt is: The Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work by Gottman. He has other books worthy of reading as well. I can't answer your other question... I don't even know what the "s" word is. :blush:

[BusyMum]

So I have two questions: what is the best book of marriage advice you've read? And do you believe that in this day and age it is possible to simply be "wifely". I mean, I keep (inadvertently) reading advice books that basically say let your man be a man; trust him...and that horrible "s" word (you know the one). I have a sort of fascinated yet repelled response to all of that. Would that really make our lives better? Is a man trustworthy to that extent? What does it all mean, LOL?

 

 

*wriggles with excitement*

 

OOOOH! OOOOOH! OOOOH! I know the answer to this!

 

The Exceptional Seven Percent - by Gregory Popcak. Seriously, this is the most amazing book and has done so much for our marriage! We've been giving it as a wedding gift for years now.

 

I like him because he is a Christian author but he talks about partnership and mutual dignity not submissiveness. The guys don't get a free ride in his view of marriage but couples work together for the benefit and happiness of each other.

 

His book is full of helpful quizzes and clear descriptions and lots and lots of humour. We actually have copies of all his books and honestly can say that they have helped us in so many ways to become better people and a stronger more loving family.

 

I have to say that I am so not convinced by the whole submissiveness thing. Maybe it is my Catholic upbringing and theological training but I see husband and wife has having different roles but being equal in dignity. I went to a homeschooling convention this year where one of the evening activities was a Q&A panel and one of the questions was on submissiveness and what to do if your husband wanted you to do something (of the teA type of thing) that you felt uncomfortable with. The five women on the panel all struggled with this question and hummed and hawed and had to say that the wife should submit, but not one spoke of the inherent dignity which God as given to each one of us and how we must defend and nourish that dignity and not defile His creation with sordid and distasteful acts that make you feel demeaned.

 

I decided then that while my husband might occasionally wish for a submissive wife, he is going to have to make do with the one he's got! :tongue_smilie:

Edited October 4, 2008 by BusyMum

[nmoira]

 

I decided then that while my husband might occasionally wish for a submissive wife, he is going to have to make do with the one he's got! :tongue_smilie:

No wonder I couldn't figure out the "s" word. :lol: So not me.

[Jean in CA]

Love and Respect by Eggerichs. Although it is Christian, the main focus is not the S word, but how to bless each other.

 

I thought it hit the nail on the head for us.

Edited October 4, 2008 by Jean in CA
typo

[SnowWhite]

I would recommend that you go with your gut and not try to force an unnatural "s" word into your relationship. I did that in response to a religious teacher, and it was BAD for our marriage. We are both much happier and closer now that I am back to behaving in the ways that dh expects from me... after all, I'm still the woman he fell in love with and the "s" word has never been a big part of my make-up.

 

I'm a strong believer that honesty and good communication with mutual respect go a long way toward building a happy marriage. I can't recommend any books because I've never read any all the way through, LOL. At my house, dh gets the last word pretty much and I'm not one to kick and scream or hold things against him, but he's also very understanding (you might say a push-over). It works for us.

[Guest janainaz]

freaking me out by going too "Christian", LOL? And I mean that in the nicest possible way!

 

I feel that my marriage has a strong foundation of love and respect. I can honestly say that I feel very loved, even cherished. Dh and I can talk for hours, and usually find ways to sort out our issues.

 

And yet I feel that our marriage isn't everything that it could be. I think we have a lot of the usual complaints. I also think we both have the desire for the best possible marriage.

 

So I have two questions: what is the best book of marriage advice you've read? And do you believe that in this day and age it is possible to simply be "wifely". I mean, I keep (inadvertently) reading advice books that basically say let your man be a man; trust him...and that horrible "s" word (you know the one). I have a sort of fascinated yet repelled response to all of that. Would that really make our lives better? Is a man trustworthy to that extent? What does it all mean, LOL?

 

I don't always feel fully engaged by marriage, but I'd like to be. It's sort of like everything else in my life: it's all right there! Right there! But somehow I'm separate from it. Does that make sense?

 

Any suggestions are welcome!

 

I am Christian, although I hate calling myself that because of what that term has become. I HATE marriage books. I think the key to a good marriage is acceptance and forgiveness. When you know that you are loved and accepted the rest happens naturally. Marriage does not always look pretty, you argue and fight sometimes - that is just a reality. I have been married to my husband for 11 years, we have been together for 14. It has not all been roses, we have our issues, but we are also best friends. It could be better at times, but I would chose my husband all over again.

 

My husband has loved me through my faults and that has allowed me to grow and change for the right and real reasons.

 

I don't really think there ARE any real marriage books out there, most of the ones I have read feel more like manipulation: I do (A) and he is supposed to respond by doing (B). I tried it, it does not work. For me, I can't change overnight and neither can he. It is a long road of growing together. I have seen many women grow very disappointed in trying to "be" something and everything ends up the same. You have got to focus on the good and remember that this idea of continual "romance" is typically only found in the movies. Real love goes much much deeper than that.

 

oh, and about being submissive, that is not even biblically meant to = being a doormat. This is misinterpreted over and over again. There are women who are led to believe that they are supposed to be walked on and this is simply not true.

Edited October 4, 2008 by janainaz

[dangermom]

I don't have a favorite marriage book, sorry. But I understand your "fascinated yet repelled response" to the S word. No, I don't think it's the right way to run a marriage; I don't actually think it ever was. Now, I'm not sure that I really understand exactly what people mean when they talk about it as a correct model of marriage, and I get that many people live it and think it's great; but I believe that men and women have always been meant to be equal, mutually respectful partners, though that hasn't been how it has actually happened most of the time.

 

I don't believe we ought to try to turn men into women; they're pretty good as they are. But that doesn't mean that they should be entitled to make all the decisions. Being a man means using your strength in the service of others,* not exerting your strength to compel others (not that the s-word is supposed to mean that either; I'm thinking generally now, of many different models of manhood).

 

 

* (not my words, but I like 'em)

[tibbyl]

Have lots of sex. Keep submission in bedroom.

[mims]

Love and Respect by Eggerichs. Although it is Christian, the main focus is not the S word, but how to bless each other.

 

I thought it hit the nail on the head for us.

 

 

This book is great in several ways. Men need to feel 'respected' as much as we women need to feel 'loved.' Did you know that if asked which they would prefer, most men would say 'respected?' So out of most women's norm that we barely believe it. You might ask your husband this. So just like showing love is a choice, so is showing respect! Look for areas you can respect your husband and show it. Anyway, that is one of the main highlights of the book but there is a lot more. Definately recomend it!

[JennifersLost]

So here's a related question for those of you in long-term marriages and for those of you who have maybe struggled with self-esteem issues in the past. You know the saying "I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me?" This is very much a thing I struggle with.

 

When I can get perspective and look at my dh as if he was a stranger I think, "Wow- he's hot!" I think about what he does and how he acts and I realize that if I had just met him, I'd definitely be using every trick in the book to get his attention. And yet, because he married me I think hmmm....what's wrong with him? LOL! I know how stupid that is, but it's true!

 

So how do you manage to keep someone's true worth in your head even when you know them a little too well? How do you go on "seeing" them?

 

I feel like it's a bit like the thing where I clean the house from top to bottom when company is coming, but I get slovenly if it's just us for a long time without visitors. Why do I value strangers so much more than the ones I love?

 

Thanks for all the book suggestions, btw - they're on my list.

[percytruffle]

This is what I have discovered and it seems to hold true for most people I know, Christian or not. Men need/crave respect and women need/crave love. Respect can look like many different things and you need to get to know your mate well enough to interpret how to show him respect in a way that builds him up and yet does not tear you down. Women, typically feel most comfortable in a relationship where the fact that we are loved is not in question. If we feel our mate loves us unconditionally it makes for peace in our little world and enables us to be the best us we are capable of being.

 

Obviously, the more I find ways to show my dh that I respect him: his intelligence, his skills, his ability to make me feel loved, his parenting skills, the more ways he is going to respond to me in a loving way. This is of course assuming both parties are mentally and emotionally healthy. I then feel cared for and "safe" and am able to find more ways to show him that I respect him...endless cycle.

 

When one of the partners is not doing their part the system tends to break down. If you can do your part regardless of whether or not the other is doing theirs, eventually it will begin to even out again. Sometimes one of us is just needier than the other for a while.

 

This is not to say that women never need respect and that men never need love, it is really a matter of speaking their language. For men, feeling respected makes them feel loved. If I never praised dh for the things he does well, but merely told him how much I love him, I doubt he would feel as secure in our relationship. Does this make sense? If he constantly showed me respect I would feel good about myself no doubt, but if I didn't feel love I would begin to doubt his feelings for me.

 

As far as the submission thing goes, if I respect his opinions and decision making skills then they will improve as he gains confidence (you know, success breeds success) and if he is showing me love he will want to please me and take my opinions into consideration. We don't disagree much on major decisions because we have taken the other's opinions/feelings/skills into account in the decision making process. If we did disagree and it was a major issue I would let him make it knowing that it would only work if we pull together and then I would jump on his band wagon and start pulling with him. Again, I am making the assumption here that there are no mental illnesses or addictions involved.

 

It works for us. Nobody feels like a doormat or powerless. I think the word submit has taken on negative connotations that need not always apply to a healthy relationship in which both parties are giving from their heart of their own free will without coercion.

[PeterPan]

Well I don't know how long you've been married, but I think time makes a big difference. I also think there's a big difference in expectations between men and women. You might have the occasional man who has this strong desire for the things you're talking about, but all in all it's a woman thing, I think. I'm not saying to go find another man or woman friend to add to the list to meet those needs, but I finally realized that for me, there was a level of fulfillment, a level of emotional need to give and to relate, that wasn't going to be poured into just my dh. That's why I started teaching a co-op class last year and making efforts to connect to other women, because I realized I was going to have to find, to MAKE my own fulfillment. You have more to give, so you have to find people to whom you can give it. And I think when you are very contented with that level of your life, then you're able to approach your dh and take whatever he has to give without being discontented. Does that make sense?

 

A man can only give what he can give. My man works 60-70 hours a week and is wiped out by the end. It's not a sign of a bad marraige when he's given all he can but can't constantly fulfill you, kwim? You have to go out and meet those needs yourself. I get those great conversations and moments sometimes, when he has energy and time and everything lines up. But that's just not all the time, and that's reality. So I keep satisfied and busy with my own things.

[JudoMom]

This is what I have discovered and it seems to hold true for most people I know, Christian or not. Men need/crave respect and women need/crave love. Respect can look like many different things and you need to get to know your mate well enough to interpret how to show him respect in a way that builds him up and yet does not tear you down. Women, typically feel most comfortable in a relationship where the fact that we are loved is not in question. If we feel our mate loves us unconditionally it makes for peace in our little world and enables us to be the best us we are capable of being.

 

Obviously, the more I find ways to show my dh that I respect him: his intelligence, his skills, his ability to make me feel loved, his parenting skills, the more ways he is going to respond to me in a loving way. This is of course assuming both parties are mentally and emotionally healthy. I then feel cared for and "safe" and am able to find more ways to show him that I respect him...endless cycle.

 

When one of the partners is not doing their part the system tends to break down. If you can do your part regardless of whether or not the other is doing theirs, eventually it will begin to even out again. Sometimes one of us is just needier than the other for a while.

 

This is not to say that women never need respect and that men never need love, it is really a matter of speaking their language. For men, feeling respected makes them feel loved. If I never praised dh for the things he does well, but merely told him how much I love him, I doubt he would feel as secure in our relationship. Does this make sense? If he constantly showed me respect I would feel good about myself no doubt, but if I didn't feel love I would begin to doubt his feelings for me.

 

As far as the submission thing goes, if I respect his opinions and decision making skills then they will improve as he gains confidence (you know, success breeds success) and if he is showing me love he will want to please me and take my opinions into consideration. We don't disagree much on major decisions because we have taken the other's opinions/feelings/skills into account in the decision making process. If we did disagree and it was a major issue I would let him make it knowing that it would only work if we pull together and then I would jump on his band wagon and start pulling with him. Again, I am making the assumption here that there are no mental illnesses or addictions involved.

 

It works for us. Nobody feels like a doormat or powerless. I think the word submit has taken on negative connotations that need not always apply to a healthy relationship in which both parties are giving from their heart of their own free will without coercion.

 

This is a brilliant explanation. :iagree:

[Audrey]

freaking me out by going too "Christian", LOL? And I mean that in the nicest possible way!

 

I feel that my marriage has a strong foundation of love and respect. I can honestly say that I feel very loved, even cherished. Dh and I can talk for hours, and usually find ways to sort out our issues.

 

And yet I feel that our marriage isn't everything that it could be. I think we have a lot of the usual complaints. I also think we both have the desire for the best possible marriage.

 

So I have two questions: what is the best book of marriage advice you've read? And do you believe that in this day and age it is possible to simply be "wifely". I mean, I keep (inadvertently) reading advice books that basically say let your man be a man; trust him...and that horrible "s" word (you know the one). I have a sort of fascinated yet repelled response to all of that. Would that really make our lives better? Is a man trustworthy to that extent? What does it all mean, LOL?

 

I don't always feel fully engaged by marriage, but I'd like to be. It's sort of like everything else in my life: it's all right there! Right there! But somehow I'm separate from it. Does that make sense?

 

Any suggestions are welcome!

 

I don't think a book will have your answer. Just MNSHO. Books are so very general in nature, they often fail to address what's really YOUR question(s).

 

As far as being wifely... by whose definition do you want to be wifely? I am most definitely the "person in charge" in my marriage, and my dh thinks that is absolutely perfectly wifely. He is no less husbandly for it either.

 

Do you want to be submissive (I'm assuming that's the "s" word)? Is that what your dh wants? Do you want to be dominant? Does he want you to be dominant? Does it lie somewhere in between for either or both of you?

 

Talk it out with your dh if you feel comfortable broaching the subject. He might even be feeling some of the same things you are. It may be a deeply intimate sharing experience for both of you. You can decide where to go from there together.

 

Marriages change because people change, but it's good to revisit with your partner as to "where they're at" and "where you're at" in this stage of your lives.

[Guest Virginia Dawn]

You know, you once said your religion is kindness. IMO, that is also what makes a marriage work. Simple kindness.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

You know, you once said your religion is kindness. IMO, that is also what makes a marriage work. Simple kindness.

 

Wise words. And a much needed reminder to the woman who snarled at her dh today. (Me, that is.)

[Sweetpeach]

Got a totally secular, absolutely beyond fabulous book on gaining further intimacy in marriage.

 

The Surrendered Wife by Laura Doyle. Don't let the title turn you off . . . it's awesome!

 

Her ideas totally revolutionized my marriage.

 

It was in her book that I gleaned this priceless piece of wisdom:

 

"Silence is golden; Duct Tape is silver.

[JennifersLost]

After just typing out and erasing a HUGE message I just realize what my real question is:

 

Is it okay for me to be feminine?

 

Notice that the question isn't, "is it okay for SOMEONE to be feminine?" The question is, "Is it okay for ME to be feminine?"

 

Is it okay for ME to be pretty?

 

Is it okay for ME to be creative?

 

Is it okay for ME to love babies?

 

Is it okay for ME to want to feed everyone I meet?

 

Is it okay for ME to want to create a beautiful home?

 

Is it okay for ME to want to be the inspiration for my husband and sons to be the best men they can possibly be because women like me exist in the world?

 

Is it okay for ME to teach my daughter the truth: about how incredibly FUN it can be to be a womanly woman?

 

Is it okay for ME to be incredibly intelligent and yet still be a force of nature in bed? (LOL!)

 

BTW, dh is supportive of whatever I want to do. The more man just wants me to be HAPPY, because he feels so good when I'm happy. But the message that I grew up with (from parents who loved me dearly) was that prettiness, creativity, and so on where reserved for other women; not me.

 

So I think basically, as stupid as it sounds, I'm asking for permission from the general female populace (as represented here), to drop kick that particular message into the cosmic goo so I can just get on with being my creative girly-girl self and start having some FUN, darnit!d

 

And would someone, anyone please take me shopping for lipstick?

[Audrey]

You ABSOLUTELY have permission to be your own creative girly-girl self. Others can only define you if you LET them. Define you for you, Jennifer.

 

*poof* I have waved my wand of permission!

[Jenny in Atl]

So here's a related question for those of you in long-term marriages and for those of you who have maybe struggled with self-esteem issues in the past. You know the saying "I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me?" This is very much a thing I struggle with.

 

When I can get perspective and look at my dh as if he was a stranger I think, "Wow- he's hot!" I think about what he does and how he acts and I realize that if I had just met him, I'd definitely be using every trick in the book to get his attention. And yet, because he married me I think hmmm....what's wrong with him? LOL! I know how stupid that is, but it's true!

 

So how do you manage to keep someone's true worth in your head even when you know them a little too well? How do you go on "seeing" them?

 

I feel like it's a bit like the thing where I clean the house from top to bottom when company is coming, but I get slovenly if it's just us for a long time without visitors. Why do I value strangers so much more than the ones I love?

 

Thanks for all the book suggestions, btw - they're on my list.

 

You sound a bit like me. I have been with dh since I was 18 and he was 17; It will be 25 years this Nov. I guess, one day I finally woke up and realized I was hot, amazing, strong, all the things dh saw in me. I stopped pushing him away, and started loving/accepting myself. When I did this, I found our relationship got even better. I don't put too much value in self help bks, cause if the worked then why publish a new crop year year? And I agree with Audrey... be whatever you wish - creative and all.

[JennifersLost]

OH! The Wand of Permission!

 

Waaaaahoooooooo!

[Doran]

After just typing out and erasing a HUGE message I just realize what my real question is:

 

Is it okay for me to be feminine?

 

 

 

Your questions make me curious. You suggest (state?) that your parents subtly trained you to believe that being successful, pretty, creative, and accomplished were reserved for women other than you. I can't refute that statement nor support it because I didn't know you then. But, I can say, with certainty, that you do not need to seek anyone's permission to do or be anything, and that tendency in you is part of the problem. Please remember, as I say these things, that I wrestle with many issues similar to yours, so I'm coming from a position of personal understanding. You do not need permission. You do not need validation. Everything you seek to be is already within you. You need to allow it to come out!

 

I've recommended these cd's quite a bit here lately because I've found them to be very impactful. Here I go again:

 

Tara Brach -- Radical Self Acceptance

 

Practice saying yes to you.

 

For what its worth, I think you are already in the process of tranforming into the woman you long to be. You don't need our permission...even though I give it to you heartily!...you need to see that you're already a masterpiece in the making.

[dangermom]

Of course you should be as feminine as you want to be! Go out and buy a lipstick and a lacy top, and then bake something really yummy! I hereby order you to be more feminine and to enjoy it.

[JennifersLost]

Doran, of course you are right.

 

The Hive is not my mommy. The Hive is not my mommy.....

 

But...but....it still feels REALLY good to get someone's "permission".

 

All right - I will try to find those cd's.

[HRAAB]

After just typing out and erasing a HUGE message I just realize what my real question is:

 

Is it okay for me to be feminine?

 

Notice that the question isn't, "is it okay for SOMEONE to be feminine?" The question is, "Is it okay for ME to be feminine?"

 

Is it okay for ME to be pretty?

 

Is it okay for ME to be creative?

 

Is it okay for ME to love babies?

 

Is it okay for ME to want to feed everyone I meet?

 

Is it okay for ME to want to create a beautiful home?

 

Is it okay for ME to want to be the inspiration for my husband and sons to be the best men they can possibly be because women like me exist in the world?

 

Is it okay for ME to teach my daughter the truth: about how incredibly FUN it can be to be a womanly woman?

 

Is it okay for ME to be incredibly intelligent and yet still be a force of nature in bed? (LOL!)

 

I don't know why your parents said what they said, but I was wondering if it was because they raised you to be a strong, independent feminist??? Maybe I'm way off base here. I was an independent woman when I got married, went through a stage of trying to be a unnaturally submissive wife until my dh very frankly told me he wouldn't have married me if that was really me. Of course, he knew it wasn't really me. Then I went back to being my normal self: outspoken, opinionated, able to make decisions on my own. But part of me still loved that picture of the perfect homemaker. I had to reconcile the two, and I found that they were not mutually exclusive. I can be strong, an equal partner in my marriage, and still be feminine, create the beautiful home (more money would help), cook great meals and all that. I could very well be very off base here, but that's what I thought of when I read your post.

 

In any event, you absolutely have permission to do all of the above. And a huge AMEN to the last one.

 

Janet

[lovemyboys]

So here's a related question for those of you in long-term marriages

 

When I can get perspective and look at my dh as if he was a stranger I think, "Wow- he's hot!" I think about what he does and how he acts and I realize that if I had just met him, I'd definitely be using every trick in the book to get his attention. And yet, because he married me I think hmmm....what's wrong with him? LOL! I know how stupid that is, but it's true!

 

So how do you manage to keep someone's true worth in your head even when you know them a little too well? How do you go on "seeing" them?

 

 

Dsil gave us a book for our last big anniversary.

 

It's kind of baby book-style but it's an "about our marriage" book. It's got a question or phrase at the top of each page for you & dh to answer or fill in, with the idea that you're leaving it behind for your dc to enjoy when you're too old to remember. It asks the typical "how we met" "first thing noticed about other" "what we did together for first date" "best quality" "funny thing that happened" and also more offbeat things too.

 

It's a lovely little thing because it makes you really think about those first exciting moments and months and years. And you start to look at this old mate with fresh eyes. He still is hot, the hair's just greying and he's added a couple inches to the jean size.

 

The wonderful thing about being with someone for so long is that even though your body's not the same either and even though there may be some added pounds, dh has known you and loved you for a long time. That's who he is caressing -- his wife. It's just kind of an energizing, empowering thought that you've made this connection work all these years, that you have a long-term marriage in this day and age. I've just realized recently how very cool that feels. He sees a person worth spending his life with, rejoice in that.

 

I agree with tibbyl that lots of sex is good too. I don't know that I consider that submission, since we initiate about equally around here, but either way, have sex even when it's not the totally romantic evening -- it's bonding and fun.

 

So after all that, my advice would be to find a little book, or write your own, of what's special about him/each other. If nothing else, it's fun to reminisce.

[JennifersLost]

Ishki - yes exactly, plus there's some weirdness passed down in my family where people married because of circumstances rather than for "love" and so passed on a lot of resentful feelings and "not good enough" feelings. The depression and WWII really come into play there.

 

I think for my mom whenever she felt pretty she got the message from my dad that she was being out of bounds - as if she was courting attention from other men if she ever dressed up and looked her best. Meanwhile Dad obviously liked it when OTHER women looked good - in a normal way. There's no history of cheating in my parents' relationship, just a fear of cheating I guess. But my mom was so hurt by it that she stamped out her own femininity and tried her best to stamp out ours, as well. We got the double standard - if I dressed up, wore makeup, fooled with my hair too much, etc, I was being incredibly vain. But if my mother saw other pretty teenage girls - especially the daughters of her friends - she sighed and wondered why we weren't like that. Sheesh!

 

I think I can understand all the whys - why she is like that and why I am like I am. Now it's time to change it all! And to keep trying to combine strong and feminine, just like you said.

[Nestof3]

I wish I could help you Jennifer. Lately, I don't feel engaged at all and don't even care anymore. It seems the more I do, the more is expected of me. I could send all of my marriage books to you, if you'd like! :)

[Jean in CA]

But my mom was so hurt by it that she stamped out her own femininity and tried her best to stamp out ours, as well. We got the double standard - if I dressed up, wore makeup, fooled with my hair too much, etc, I was being incredibly vain.

 

this would have not been as appropriate, but now that you are married, I would think it would be a "gift" to your husband to maintain your looks. Men are generally quite visual and appreciate a wife who still pays attention to her looks after the children arrive.:)

 

My husband has always thanked me for not turning into a "frumpy" mom in sweats and unkempt hair. After all, what a (negative) contrast that would be to the chic young ladies at the office who are all charmingly decked out.

 

Not that appearance is the most important thing that keeps a man's heart at home. I believe it is admiration and respect that first attracts a man to any woman - someone who adores him and thinks the world of him.

 

Unfortunately, too soon after marriage, most wives start to roll their eyes at the husband who just doesnt' "get it", doesn't know anything about how to raise kids... etc and so begins the decline of the relationship.

 

I am excited for your "awakening" that you can define your own womanhood!

Edited October 5, 2008 by Jean in CA

[Plucky]

I wish I could help you Jennifer. Lately, I don't feel engaged at all and don't even care anymore. It seems the more I do, the more is expected of me. I could send all of my marriage books to you, if you'd like! :)

 

:grouphug: ... sometimes marriage is very hard.

[Vida Winter]

Jennifer, I hate "marriage books." I am Christian, my awesome dh is not. He endured 12 yrs of Catholic school and said "that's enough." We've been together some 18 years or so.

 

So I won't come at this from a Christian perspective. You've got to do what you need to do - to be you. And I'm telling you the truth - find what he needs and give it to him.

 

My dh needs a clean house. He is a neat freak. So even though that's not my strong point, it's what I aspire to. He also appreciates it when I make good meals, even though he rarely acknowledges my effort. He likes me to dress like a much younger woman than I am. :blush: I do it although my inclination is to wear sweats. At least when he's around. And Tea. Lots and lots of Tea.

 

So you see, there is nothing very complicated about a man. You know what he likes; give it to him. And be yourself. He will reciprocate. You'll both be very happy.

[Alana in Canada]

Hey, Jennifer!

 

I'll go lipstick shopping with you! I'd feel so intimidated by the other girls...I missed all that growing up, too. Now it seems silly at 44 to do what I should have done at 15!

 

Oh well, better late than never!

 

The permission thing?--it's a journey. Welcome to it! You CAN be as girly and as wifely (or whatever) as you choose to be. It'll be like any other journey--a few setbacks, a few small steps forward....until one day--what? One of the greatest excercises (and I've done a lot!) is to imagine youself, some time hence, in your "perfect" house, your perfect outfit and coif, etc... Just go wild with imagining. Write it down. Then, just say to yourself what ever you need too. "I have permission to do-----" I have permission to be ----"

 

I read "Simple Abundance" by Sarah Ban breathnatch--that helped me a lot with this process. I like Julia Cameron (The Artist's Way) for this type of encouragement too. Alexandra Stoddard knows a thing or two about creating beautiful "homey" homes and taking care of yourself, too. These are all secular sources, by the way.

 

I read a wonderful thing about submissiveness. It is simply letting the other person have the last word"--not that you shouldn't have any words at all!

 

I just decided what furnace to buy for us. And I'm a "submissive" wife. I got a couple of quotes, did a pile of research and presented everything to him. He agreed with me. That's all. If he hadn't agreed with me, that would have been OK, too.

 

There are a few things we do not agree upon: I try not to fight with him about it. So, my life may be a bit more complicated and not quite as "comfortable" as it would otherwise be. Oh well. That's life. I'm very lucky--for the most part, I have a good man.

[Alana in Canada]

I wish I could help you Jennifer. Lately, I don't feel engaged at all and don't even care anymore. It seems the more I do, the more is expected of me. I could send all of my marriage books to you, if you'd like! :)

 

I've been here, too. And we may go through a dry spell like this again. I hope not. It is awful.

 

:grouphug:

[Peela]

The things that have helped me keep my marriage warm ( I am not so interested in "hot" as an ongoing warm, friendly aliveness and companionship :

 

Flylady. I am not kidding. My husband was a neat freak, I was a slob, and n'er the twain did meet! After I found Flylady, I learned to keep house for me, for my self worth, because it was a joy for me...and then I could love everyone else in th family with it as well, because I was lovin' myself. She helped me change my attitude toward housework, big time.

 

In fact, that was the next main point I was going to make....I feel it is very important that I love myself deeply and act in my own best interests, and live my life fully, and follow my heart, independently....otherwise I am going to be looking for fulfillment from my husband and marriage that it simply cannot give me. So I think self love...not selfish love, just a wholesome self love, is essential for a healthy marriage.

 

The other thing I would add is that reading the secular book The Surrendered Wife that someone else mentioned was a turning point in my marriage, too. It really saved it at one point. I probably dont live it fully, and I dont care because at the time it helped me see my own self centredness, and that it is not "weak" or submissive to allow my man to take a manly role in the things that made him feel manly, so to speak. Also, Dr Laura's books- I think I read 2- helped me in the same way not to be selfishness and demand my rights in a marriage when I wasnt even considering his. These were "growing up" books for me.

[Apiphobic]

It's been a while and I can't remember which book I read first, but I remember getting a lot out of Harriet Lerner's dance books.

 

Don't let the titles throw you off though. The books really deal with your own actions, not others'. Instead of expecting someone else to change, you focus on changing your own responses and behaviors. That inevitably causes change in the relationship.

 

The Dance of Anger

 

The Dance of Connection

 

The Dance of Intimacy

[melissel]

What a great thread. I see myself in so many posts here. Thank you all.

[Rosie_0801]

I decided then that while my husband might occasionally wish for a submissive wife, he is going to have to make do with the one he's got! :tongue_smilie:

 

So might mine! Then again, he's with me and not his former submissive styled girlfriend for a reason. I'm wondering if the most important element of a marriage (using terms loosely as I "merely" defacto) is that one person is able to identify problems and both are willing to find solutions; remembering that they are on the same team even if they are on different sides of the issue. I also think it's important to remember that even the best of relationships have their perpetual arguments and we must accept that we are going to argue over the housework every three weeks for the rest of our lives! I certainly wouldn't trust dh with all decisions. One reason he keeps me around is because I'm the one who thinks things through! On the other hand, if I have to type out sensitive emails to my parents, I usually get him to proof read them for me. He has way more tact than I do. :blushing: I've read a few marriage books, but they don't do a heck of a lot for me. I've got more out of the differences between men and women style books. Some are a croc, of course, but sometimes they set off lightbulbs: "Aha! Is this why they do this?" and I can check it with him to see what he thinks. Sometimes they can put vague feelings into words so the issue can be discussed.

 

So how do you manage to keep someone's true worth in your head even when you know them a little too well? How do you go on "seeing" them?

I feel like it's a bit like the thing where I clean the house from top to bottom when company is coming, but I get slovenly if it's just us for a long time without visitors. Why do I value strangers so much more than the ones I love?

 

 

You don't value strangers more than the ones you love. It's that you know where you stand with your family. Your dh isn't going to up and leave because there are dishes in the sink, because he's seen far worse! With strangers, you are at the beginning of the possible relationship. The stage where you do present your best side, just like you did when you were first dating dh. Just like when you first had your kids. I'm sure you've found the older they get, the less likely you are to get promptly out of bed to fix their breakfast.

As for keeping someone's true worth in your head. I'm not sure. Keeping it in my heart can be difficult sometimes, but I can rely on my head to remember it was there. That memory reminds me that the feeling is there if I can look in the right place. Sometimes it's well hidden, but so far I've always found it. (I don't know if you consider a 6 1/2 year defacto relationship to be long term, but it feels like it!)

And yeah. Of course it's ok for you to like babies and other girlie stuff. Just like it's ok for you to spend entire weekends in your pj's watching Dr Who. You were put on earth to be you! If you is a woman who likes to have a vase of flowers in every room, that's perfectly ok. Your choice may be restricted if someone has hayfever, that's all :D It sucks very badly that we can get to our ages and still need to ask. If anyone thinks that you aren't ok the way you are, they don't really like you so you don't have to care about their opinion. (Clearly they have no taste and you don't ask advice from people with no taste.)

 

In fact, that was the next main point I was going to make....I feel it is very important that I love myself deeply and act in my own best interests, and live my life fully, and follow my heart, independently....otherwise I am going to be looking for fulfillment from my husband and marriage that it simply cannot give me. So I think self love...not selfish love, just a wholesome self love, is essential for a healthy marriage.

 

 

Oh yeah. I worked for a few years on a checkout. I can't remember the amount of women who would sigh to me about their marriages. To be perfectly honest, it was no wonder their husbands didn't pay much attention to them. There wasn't really enough woman left. They'd given it/ themselves up for their hubby and kids. That's one thing I'm really careful about. I'd prefer to err slighly on the side of selfishness than have myself washed away. I've seen so many women like this. I have to wonder if their hubbies actually asked them to, because they don't seem to like the results all that much. They marry the bold colour version of us, don't they? Not the watercolour.

 

Ok. That was long. Don't mind me. I just think about this sort of stuff a lot. It seems to me we (people in general) spend a lot of time and often money studying stuff that doesn't matter a whole heap. Then take the most important things, marriage and childraising and try to wing it. It seems sensible to put study into these things too.

 

Rosie- who's embarrassed at the length of this message and is contemplating deleting it.

[Lovedtodeath]

oh, and about being submissive, that is not even biblically meant to = being a doormat. This is misinterpreted over and over again. There are women who are led to believe that they are supposed to be walked on and this is simply not true.

 

:iagree:The biblical account of Abraham and Sarah's marriage makes that abundantly clear.

 

We used Dr. Phil's book. It was too long, we did not finish it as we were quite done dwelling on the negative, but if there are behaviors that sabatoge a marriage (like a wife hinting instead of speaking clearly what she wants.) the book helps identify them and change them. It also helps to clear up misunderstandings or hurts from the past. I was finally able to explain why I believed that DH did not love me.

 

We were separated when we started the book, and now our marriage is stronger than ever before. I truly believe that our marriage also recieved divine help.

[Lovedtodeath]

But, I can say, with certainty, that you do not need to seek anyone's permission to do or be anything, and that tendency in you is part of the problem.

 

This is a big one.

 

My DH is a strong, loud person who will walk all over you if you let him. I was a submissive, quiet wife who always wanted approval and permission. The combination of the two will make for a relationship that borders on abusive.

 

Dr. Phil's book really helped me to see how I contributed to the imbalance in our marriage. Not only that it helped DH to see how I contributed to it, and he continually pushes me to stop it and improve. And vice versa, of course.

[Aubrey]

Of course you should be as feminine as you want to be! Go out and buy a lipstick and a lacy top, and then bake something really yummy! I hereby order you to be more feminine and to enjoy it.

 

Oh my gosh. This almost made me cry! I bet you think it's ok to like pink, too?

 

(((Jennifer)))

[Lovedtodeath]

I also think it's important to remember that even the best of relationships have their perpetual arguments and we must accept that we are going to argue over the housework every three weeks for the rest of our lives!

 

Rosie, you had some really good thoughts... this was the best one. DH finally came to the conclusion that arguing would not change it. Happier marriage from then on out.