Dog Search: Breed Advice

[SeaConquest]

I know that we have a number of knowledgeable dog folks here, so I thought I would crowd source the collective wisdom of the Hive. We are looking to add one or two dogs to our family. We have two rambunctious boys -- currently 2.5 and 7 years old. We travel frequently, and would want the dog(s) to come with us on our sailboat, in a 5th wheel (which we will likely buy in the next few years), and in-cabin aboard planes. My shrink will write me a letter for emotional support animal(s) (I have bipolar disorder), so I don't foresee issues with housing and travel. 

 

We would prefer smaller dogs because we would have to be able to lift them up out of our sailboat, onto a dinghy, etc. multiple times per day to potty. I have experience with Cocker Spaniels, and we generally like Spaniels of all sorts. The issue with my last dog (who lived to 14, and passed away right before I had my toddler) was that he had a relatively fearful disposition around people (he was great with other dogs), could fear bite, and was not safe around children. We kept him separated from my older son, which was not always easy when living on a boat with a young child. It was likely my fault that he turned out this way, though, because I never thought I was going to have children and never worked to socialize him with them. I worked really hard to send him to dog daycare/go to dog beaches, etc. to ensure that he was social with other animals.

 

So, basically, we are looking for smaller dogs that tend toward more bullet-proof, easy-going personalities around kids. We don't need dogs that will go on hikes with us necessarily (though that is fine), but dogs who are ok with travel. Lap dogs are fine (especially good on planes), as long as they are ok with wild boys. I am used to the expense of dog grooming, so that is fine. Given that we homeschool, the dogs will not likely be left alone for long periods regularly.

 

We are open to either a rescue or the expense of a quality breeder. We have been looking at Cavalier King Charles, and really like them. I appreciate any breed information and advice on how we should proceed, things to look for, questions to ask, etc. We looked at a 1 year old Collie/Cocker rescue this morning, but she was too fearful to work in our family. I appreciate any suggestions and advice. :)

 

ETA: We currently live in an apartment with no yard, and are used to walking animals/taking them out to potty.

Edited May 7, 2016 by SeaConquest

[Jean in Newcastle]

I was going to suggest a Cavalier King Charles. 

[Pawz4me]

Cavaliers were the fist breed that popped into my mind while I was reading your post.  Make sure you educate yourself on the heath issues, though.  Of course all breeds have their issues, but mitral valve disease is so prevalent in CKCS that it kind of scares me.

 

I'd also consider Bichons, Shih Tzus, English Toy Spaniels and maybe Papillions.

 

Our Shih Tzu loves to travel in our motor home, and he's very easy to take along.

[wonderchica]

A mini or standard Poodles. I'm partial though ;)

[ChrisB]

I'll also say the Cavalier King.  Our neighbor has one, and she is the sweetest dog I've ever met.  Very friendly, doesn't bark much, gentle, small, and cute.

[matrips]

We just got a Bichon Frise. They're main job is being a companion dog. They love their people. If you socialize them early and expose them to a variety of people and places, they should be good with everyone and all kinds of situations. Ours is great with little kids we meet at the park, old people and everyone in between. She loves traveling with us and is very portable. Every car ride is an adventure to possibly new people petting her. :). She's also not yippy. She's fairly quiet unless she needs something. My kids are 11 so not rambunctious but they are loud and like to play with her. I doubt the Bichon could handle roughness though. It's more meant for cheerful happy play and hanging out I think. Ours lives her toys, and just started swimming in our pool. Basically she's been game for pretty much anything so far. And while she's fine to walk with us or run around with, she doesn't require huge amounts of exercise and is just as content sitting by our feet while we read. We got ours as a pup since we were concerned about the history of a rescue pup. This is our first dog.

[SeaConquest]

Do you think the Cavaliers are generally ok with travel, changing homes, etc.? My Cocker was totally cool with going anywhere, as long as he was with you.

 

How are Cavaliers around water? Do they generally like to play in and around water?  

[poiema]

I was also going to suggest a cavalier, but that might be because I am biased. My boy is fantastic with children - both our children and strangers. He loves going anywhere we go, and in fact loves to hike. He became territorial at about a year old, so he will bark at anyone coming to our house he didn't know as a puppy, but absolutely never bites. And he gets along fine with strangers outside of the house.

 

Find a reputable breeder and make sure the parents are both heart clear. We were even able to meet the grandma who was heart clear and just died recently at 14. In fact, we live pretty close so I can recommend a couple of breeders.

 

I think they would be okay with change, as long as they are with you. We take him places, but we've never traveled overnight with him because we have a fantastic sitter. I don't know about water because we've never tried. I always worry about how long it takes his coat to dry, but I suppose if you groomed them short it wouldn't be a problem.

[hornblower]

My mom has a cavalier.  They tend to bond to their people and are happy so long as they're with you. Truly companion animals - that really is their job and they take it seriously.  She stays with me often when my parents go on flying vacations and she follows me from room to room all day.  Very sweet, playful, but also cuddly.  She doesn't really play with my dogs or any dogs at the park but she loves to play fetch with her ball & just run around. 

My mom's likes to play at our beaches but isn't a huge swimmer. I think that can vary considerably. My mom's is quite birdy - spaniels were / are bird hunting dogs and some retain the instinct. Lilly is quite determined to stalk and flush sparrows etc from under bushes. She also likes to chase squirrels. 

Be very very very careful with finding one because of the health probs. The mitral valve disease mentioned above is one thing but much worse is the chiari malformation & syringomaelia  (which we suspect Lilly has but in a not terribly serious version right now) 

Have a look at this clip & read through the petition documents. https://www.change.org/p/the-kennel-club-stop-registerin-g-cavalier-king-charles-spaniel-puppies-unless-their-parents-are-mri-scanned-and-heart-tested/u/15632696?tk=Qds3nbAUOcmK5bWdnmdyqYfjrPmRM6q-dCASnWx9LQ8&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

Some breeders here really have their head in the sand and refuse to admit there's a problem but it is very much here in North America. I'm hearing there are a few strains in central & Eastern Europe which seem less afflicted. 

Also be prepared for grooming. I really want to shave Lilly down but for various reasons my mom is resisting. CKCSs technically should not be shaved but depending on their coat, they can be a total PITA to maintain. Lilly is very thickly coated, and she's a very small cav so she picks up all the dirt, leaves, brambles & her coat mats daily. It's a LOT of brushing to keep her clean and unmatted. Every time she stays here, I clean her up and get her coat silky but my mom struggles with maintaining it. I think I've worn her down on this & she'll let me get her a "lamb" shave for her this summer.  

 

[Bluegoat]

Rescue dogs might be hard - so many won't give any dogs to people with kids under 10.

 

I would not get a cavalier.  All of the ones I've known had serious health problems and died quite young.  My mom's which was a cavalier cocker cross still suffered some of the related health issues and was on expensive medication for epilepsy his whole life.

 

If you want a purebred, you might consider a Havanese, they are fairly healthy dogs with good temperaments.  Though they have recently become more popular because of that so who knows how long it will last.

 

I would also consider looking for someone that breeds non-purebred lap dogs.  It is pretty common with smaller dogs that are mainly for pets to see breeders who do that, and it can avoid some of the health issues, one hopes anyway.  A lot are poodle crosses, but not always.

[Minerva]

I am a mutt person, so I can't help you with breed selection, but I am a life long sailor and just want to warn you that not all dogs do well on boats. We have two dogs and one of them gets really seasick. Maybe there are some dogs that are less prone to seasickness? 

 

[Pawz4me]

Rescue dogs might be hard - so many won't give any dogs to people with kids under 10.

 

I would not get a cavalier.  All of the ones I've known had serious health problems and died quite young.  My mom's which was a cavalier cocker cross still suffered some of the related health issues and was on expensive medication for epilepsy his whole life.

 

If you want a purebred, you might consider a Havanese, they are fairly healthy dogs with good temperaments.  Though they have recently become more popular because of that so who knows how long it will last.

 

I would also consider looking for someone that breeds non-purebred lap dogs.  It is pretty common with smaller dogs that are mainly for pets to see breeders who do that, and it can avoid some of the health issues, one hopes anyway.  A lot are poodle crosses, but not always.

 

Or you can get a dog who has the health issues of both parent breeds.  Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of people who are breeding mixed breeds don't know or care much about genetics and health screenings.

[MercyA]

If you decide on a Cavalier, be sure to look up the breeder here to see which health tests they've had done and how often. It's also a good place to start a search for truly responsible breeders. Be sure to also read through the information at this website. 

 

They are wonderful dogs! Good luck! 

[lmrich]

We adore our mini poodle. She is sweet and loyal. She loves to travel and is incredibly smart and intuitive. I think she would make a great therapy dog. She always makes me feel better.

[SeaConquest]

My mom has a cavalier.  They tend to bond to their people and are happy so long as they're with you. Truly companion animals - that really is their job and they take it seriously.  She stays with me often when my parents go on flying vacations and she follows me from room to room all day.  Very sweet, playful, but also cuddly.  She doesn't really play with my dogs or any dogs at the park but she loves to play fetch with her ball & just run around. 

 

My mom's likes to play at our beaches but isn't a huge swimmer. I think that can vary considerably. My mom's is quite birdy - spaniels were / are bird hunting dogs and some retain the instinct. Lilly is quite determined to stalk and flush sparrows etc from under bushes. She also likes to chase squirrels. 

 

Be very very very careful with finding one because of the health probs. The mitral valve disease mentioned above is one thing but much worse is the chiari malformation & syringomaelia  (which we suspect Lilly has but in a not terribly serious version right now) 

 

Have a look at this clip & read through the petition documents. https://www.change.org/p/the-kennel-club-stop-registerin-g-cavalier-king-charles-spaniel-puppies-unless-their-parents-are-mri-scanned-and-heart-tested/u/15632696?tk=Qds3nbAUOcmK5bWdnmdyqYfjrPmRM6q-dCASnWx9LQ8&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

 

Some breeders here really have their head in the sand and refuse to admit there's a problem but it is very much here in North America. I'm hearing there are a few strains in central & Eastern Europe which seem less afflicted. 

 

Also be prepared for grooming. I really want to shave Lilly down but for various reasons my mom is resisting. CKCSs technically should not be shaved but depending on their coat, they can be a total PITA to maintain. Lilly is very thickly coated, and she's a very small cav so she picks up all the dirt, leaves, brambles & her coat mats daily. It's a LOT of brushing to keep her clean and unmatted. Every time she stays here, I clean her up and get her coat silky but my mom struggles with maintaining it. I think I've worn her down on this & she'll let me get her a "lamb" shave for her this summer.  

 

 

 

Wow. Thank you all so much for sharing this kind of information. So heartbreaking!

 

I have had a look at some of the Cav rescues, and I agree that I don't think we will have a chance of adopting one that would be comfortable in our home.

 

Do you think it is worth it to try to find a good Cav breeder? I mean, if the people breeding champion dogs, endorsed by the AKC, aren't being honest, what chance do we have of finding a good one? Also, we have no intention of breeding dogs -- how responsible/ethical would it be for the Cav breed for us to find one without these issues, and then have it spayed or neutered? It almost seems like we have an obligation to the breed to help breed healthy dogs.

 

Sigh. This is so complicated. Are there other smallish spaniels or spaniel crosses that might work well? What about Springers?

[SeaConquest]

I am a mutt person, so I can't help you with breed selection, but I am a life long sailor and just want to warn you that not all dogs do well on boats. We have two dogs and one of them gets really seasick. Maybe there are some dogs that are less prone to seasickness? 

 

I am not sure that we can really screen for this. We lucked out with my cocker, who was an amazingly salty dog, but even I am prone to seasicknesses (after almost a decade on the boat). I think it might just be luck of the draw. Keeping the dog calm tends to help. I know that I get more seasick when I am nervous. I generally pop an Ativan if we are going to be sailing for more than a few hours.

[SweetandSimple]

For a smaller dog that is fabulous with kids, I would choose a Pug hands-down. I know-- the ugliness factor is sort of a turn off, but really-- they are such wonderful dogs! We just recently lost out 14-year-old Pug. He was the best dog ever.

 

I let me family talk me into a Golden Retriever puppy so that the kids could have that "big dog" experience... but really, I kind of wish we had another Pug. 

[4ofus]

I have had a pug & he was very sweet & happy-go-lucky & pretty healthy considering he came from a backyard breeder & suffered pneumonia from falling into a water feature while he was still in their care. Respiratory issues & skin issues were what he struggled with. They can have breathing issues anyway due to their smushed little snouts. I'm not sure how being on/around water would impact that, or if it would at all. Just something to investigate if you were to consider that breed. They are one of my favorite breeds!

 

I have a pound-dog now. She was supposedly a sheltie mix, but she is pretty much unmistakably full or near-full Corgi. No sheltie in sight. I have met a few other Corgis & temperment-wise they aren't consistent. I could not in good faith recommend one for a family with children. Ours is ridiculously anxious. Idk how much of that is breed, & how much of that is shelter dog, but she would NOT meet your needs. She pretty much hates everything, bless her heart.

[Jean in Newcastle]

 What about Springers?

 

Do not get a Springer.  I love our Springers but they are too big for what you are talking about and they need a lot of exercise esp. when they are young. 

[SeaConquest]

For a smaller dog that is fabulous with kids, I would choose a Pug hands-down. I know-- the ugliness factor is sort of a turn off, but really-- they are such wonderful dogs! We just recently lost out 14-year-old Pug. He was the best dog ever.

 

I let me family talk me into a Golden Retriever puppy so that the kids could have that "big dog" experience... but really, I kind of wish we had another Pug. 

 

Pugs are awesome. I agree with you. My issue with pugs is their ability to handle heat. My husband would like to spend part of the year sailing in the Caribbean, and it gets so hot and humid. My friend lost her bulldog to heatstroke at the same dog daycare that my cocker was at.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Have you considered a West Highland terrier? 

[MercyA]

Do you think it is worth it to try to find a good Cav breeder?

 

Yes.

 

I mean, if the people breeding champion dogs, endorsed by the AKC, aren't being honest, what chance do we have of finding a good one? 

 

AKC registration means almost nothing. Puppy mills can get AKC certificates. You can find a good breeder, but it takes some work. Look for someone who:

• Is involved in one or both of the national Cavalier clubs, as well as their local one.
• Shows their dogs.
• ONLY breeds Cavaliers.
• Won't ship their dogs to you.
• Requires a home check.
• Does the necessary health testing and submits it to the ofa.org databases.

There are breeders who have bred generations of healthy Cavaliers and have the records to show it. 

 

 

Also, we have no intention of breeding dogs -- how responsible/ethical would it be for the Cav breed for us to find one without these issues, and then have it spayed or neutered? It almost seems like we have an obligation to the breed to help breed healthy dogs.

 

Virtually all Cavaliers sold as pets by responsible breeders are sold with limited registration, meaning spaying or neutering is required as a condition of the contract.

 

Edited May 7, 2016 by MercyA

[Ellie]

Although I also wanted a Cavalier, their health issues have pretty much made me decide against them. :-(

 

And so my next choice is a Papilion. I have read nothing but good comments about them.

[SeaConquest]

Have you considered a West Highland terrier? 

 

I have never had a terrier. Westies seems to be pretty strong willed, and, one of the videos said that they don't make great lap dogs. How do you think one would do being confined on an airplane or in a small space like an RV or sailboat?

[hornblower]

Wow. Thank you all so much for sharing this kind of information. So heartbreaking!

 

I have had a look at some of the Cav rescues, and I agree that I don't think we will have a chance of adopting one that would be comfortable in our home.

 

Do you think it is worth it to try to find a good Cav breeder? I mean, if the people breeding champion dogs, endorsed by the AKC, aren't being honest, what chance do we have of finding a good one? Also, we have no intention of breeding dogs -- how responsible/ethical would it be for the Cav breed for us to find one without these issues, and then have it spayed or neutered? It almost seems like we have an obligation to the breed to help breed healthy dogs.

 

Sigh. This is so complicated. Are there other smallish spaniels or spaniel crosses that might work well? What about Springers?

My advice would be to go at it a different way: clarify what characteristics you want, get your max height/weight down & contact several good area rescues & be prepared to wait a bit if necessary. 

 

eta - & don't focus on breed so much as on size & temperament ie, consider mutts :) 

 

I know many rescues won't adopt to families with small kids but the rescue I was involved with did. We matched dogs & families carefully. purebreed spaniel rescues as a whole tend ime to be a bit twitchy about this because of bite risk. Generalizing wilidly IMO this is because spaniels tend to have ear probs and kids tend to pull ears and so spaniels sometimes get a reputation for nipping... again generalizing wildly.... 

 

I agree with Jean that a Springer is probably not the dog you want. 

 

I think you should steer far away from pugs & any other brachycephalic dogs, not only because of heat but because they often can't swim. 

 

for advice on how to find a good rescue: http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/rescue.htm

 

Just to show you what I'm thinking of:  This rescue is on hiatus but I know the woman running it. She was pulling from a high kill shelter in the US and transporting and vetting on her own cost and adopting out here on the West Coast. She focused mostly on littles & mediums. Just sturdy, funny mixed breed dogs. You can guess at their breeds & some of them looked definitely more like hounds or poodles or spaniels but for many it's all just a guess LOL. Here's a gallery of a reunion of some of her adopters just so you can see what they might look like: https://plus.google.com/photos/100536475870183723990/albums/5930742906215409953?gpinv=AMIXal_d68ox-dHnIcGpToOKWNkZH1h7wMYHUtFARtx8WwK1FkfBsWa-A6EjuoSp8kM2MgXHMhunw8-A9LEtcKC63gb9SXzS1ZqB3Gv0ZWoc_pLM_AcHAeA&cfem=1&authkey=CLzJh_37uKquIQ

 

 

Edited May 7, 2016 by hornblower

[3 ladybugs]

We have a Cavachon and that fits him to a T! You can see our dog through the years here: http://ourunplannedlife.com/?s=Fenway

 

They are relatively popular in England (at least compared to the US). There is a Facebook group I can direct you to if you want to learn more about them. They come in all sizes (the larger ones sometimes people call "Megachons" LOL) so it would be important to know the parents to see how big your's is going to be. 

 

Oh I should add that my dog doesn't like camping, but that has more to do with dirt then being outdoors. He would be perfectly happy in a boat, or an RV (which we are going to purchase for our spoiled pet!).

 

Good luck and let me know if you have questions. 

[Ellie]

 

 

Do you think it is worth it to try to find a good Cav breeder? I mean, if the people breeding champion dogs, endorsed by the AKC, aren't being honest, what chance do we have of finding a good one? Also, we have no intention of breeding dogs -- how responsible/ethical would it be for the Cav breed for us to find one without these issues, and then have it spayed or neutered? It almost seems like we have an obligation to the breed to help breed healthy dogs.

 

Sigh. This is so complicated. Are there other smallish spaniels or spaniel crosses that might work well? What about Springers?

 

If you want a purebred dog, then yes, it's worth it to find a good breeder.

 

People who breed dogs are not "endorsed" by the AKC. A dog which is AKC registered has two parents of the same breed who are also registered. AKC registration only verifies that this dog is purebred; it has nothing to do with whether or not he is well-bred (or healthy).

 

Of course a reputable breeder wants you to help breed healthy dogs. That's the point of having purebred dogs, after all: to improve the breed. Many reputable breeders of different breeds will require their pet-quality pups to be spayed/neutered, because the pups are *pet quality,* not show quality. And breeders who have dogs that show up with serious health issues (or disqualifying things, such as a parti-color poodle) would not want those health issues to be perpetuated by pet breeders.

 

It is impossible to tell how a mixed-breed dog will turn out, which is one of the reasons people look for purebred dogs. :-)

[MercyA]

Although I also wanted a Cavalier, their health issues have pretty much made me decide against them. :-(

 

And so my next choice is a Papillons. I have read nothing but good comments about them.

 

I love Papillons, but I believe they tend to be much more barky than Cavaliers. If you want a watchdog, I suppose that could be a plus!  :001_smile:

[Catalytic]

Wow. Thank you all so much for sharing this kind of information. So heartbreaking!

 

I have had a look at some of the Cav rescues, and I agree that I don't think we will have a chance of adopting one that would be comfortable in our home.

 

Do you think it is worth it to try to find a good Cav breeder? I mean, if the people breeding champion dogs, endorsed by the AKC, aren't being honest, what chance do we have of finding a good one? Also, we have no intention of breeding dogs -- how responsible/ethical would it be for the Cav breed for us to find one without these issues, and then have it spayed or neutered? It almost seems like we have an obligation to the breed to help breed healthy dogs.

 

Sigh. This is so complicated. Are there other smallish spaniels or spaniel crosses that might work well? What about Springers?

 

My experience is that being endorsed by the AKC means NOTHING.  They endorse puppy mills and crappy breeders.  Having spent thousands trying to save a puppy from a breeder recommended to me by the AKC...I'll never trust them again.

 

You never have an obligation to breed.  Ever.  Leave that to those who have the experience and expertise to recognize perfection.  The responsible thing to do IS to spay/neuter (or protect the dog from breeding if you're opposed to those surgeries).

 

That said, I'd look into shih tzus, or maybe a shih tzu/poodle mix.  (Yes I bought mine from a BYB/possible mill after my AKC breeder experience....no rescues would adopt to us because we had a young child and/or because we're military.)  Only reason I would advise against a shih poo is the godawful fur mine has, she got the perfect storm mix of poodle and shih tzu and man can it mat up in a hurry!  Her personality is amazing, though, she tolerates being drug around by little kids, and she'll fight to the death with DH (he loves to ROUGH roughhouse with her, and she loves it too)   My girl is right at 10lbs and the perfect size for laps and travelling. 

Edited May 7, 2016 by Catalytic

[Lady Florida.]

Keeshonds were originally bred to be companions on canal boats/barges, but the breed might be too big for you. They're a medium sized dog and also require regular, serious grooming. They do however, have a wonderful temperament and are good with kids (as with any dog/dog breed though you need to be careful and teach your kids to be gentle). They make good family dogs and love companionship - it's what they were bred for.

[SeaConquest]

We have a Cavachon and that fits him to a T! You can see our dog through the years here: http://ourunplannedlife.com/?s=Fenway

 

They are relatively popular in England (at least compared to the US). There is a Facebook group I can direct you to if you want to learn more about them. They come in all sizes (the larger ones sometimes people call "Megachons" LOL) so it would be important to know the parents to see how big your's is going to be. 

 

Oh I should add that my dog doesn't like camping, but that has more to do with dirt then being outdoors. He would be perfectly happy in a boat, or an RV (which we are going to purchase for our spoiled pet!).

 

Good luck and let me know if you have questions. 

 

The Cavachon, Spoodle, and Cavoodle all look like possibilities. What do the experienced dog folks have to say about these types of crosses? 

[Pawz4me]

Wow. Thank you all so much for sharing this kind of information. So heartbreaking!

 

I have had a look at some of the Cav rescues, and I agree that I don't think we will have a chance of adopting one that would be comfortable in our home.

 

Do you think it is worth it to try to find a good Cav breeder? I mean, if the people breeding champion dogs, endorsed by the AKC, aren't being honest, what chance do we have of finding a good one? Also, we have no intention of breeding dogs -- how responsible/ethical would it be for the Cav breed for us to find one without these issues, and then have it spayed or neutered? It almost seems like we have an obligation to the breed to help breed healthy dogs.

 

Sigh. This is so complicated. Are there other smallish spaniels or spaniel crosses that might work well? What about Springers?

 

As others have said, the AKC doesn't "endorse" breeders.  They're a purebred registration agency.  That's it.

 

If I were in your shoes I'd start here and begin reaching out to breeders in your area.  You might first want to look over their Code of Ethics.  How well any breed club enforces their Code of Ethics is probably difficult to impossible for someone outside the breed to know.  But I figure just having them is better than nothing.  And it looks like theirs was just updated last year, which to me would be a good sign.

 

As far as continuing to breed -- In all likelihood you'll be buying what is called a pet quality puppy.  That almost always means there's some slight cosmetic flaw -- the coat may not be just right for a show dog, or the eye color just a bit off, or the bite.  It's not likely to be something that affects the dog's health at all.  My Shih Tzu came from a top breeder--all of his ancestors for many generations back are AKC champions.  But he's pet quality because there's just a tiny bit too much white visible in one of his eyes.  The top quality puppy(ies) from a litter almost always either stay with the breeder or go to another established breeder.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Pawz4me

[Lady Florida.]

 

As far as continuing to breed -- In all likelihood you'll be buying what is called a pet quality puppy.  That almost always means there's some slight cosmetic flaw -- the coat may not be just right for a show dog, or the eye color just a bit off, or the bite.  It's not likely to be something that affects the dog's health at all.  My Shih Tzu came from a top breeder--all of his ancestors for many generations back are AKC champions.  But he's pet quality because there's just a tiny bit too much white visible in one of his eyes.  The top quality puppy(ies) from a litter almost always either stay with the breeder or go to another established breeder/shower.

 

Yes our Shetland Sheepdog (my avatar) who just crossed the Rainbow Bridge in February came from a Sheltie breeder with an excellent reputation and he had champion parentage/ancestors. He however, was a tad too tall for his breed according to the AKC and therefore was considered pet quality.

 

He might have been just pet quality but he was definitely a quality pet.  :001_wub:  :wub:

[HSmomof2]

For a smaller dog that is fabulous with kids, I would choose a Pug hands-down. I know-- the ugliness factor is sort of a turn off, but really-- they are such wonderful dogs! We just recently lost out 14-year-old Pug. He was the best dog ever.

 

I let me family talk me into a Golden Retriever puppy so that the kids could have that "big dog" experience... but really, I kind of wish we had another Pug.

I agree. We have an 8 year old pug who is the sweetest and most patient dog I've known. She's has a 'big dog' personality in a little body. No health problems, loves everyone, just a basically happy little dog.

[SeaConquest]

Yes our Shetland Sheepdog (my avatar) who just crossed the Rainbow Bridge in February came from a Sheltie breeder with an excellent reputation and he had champion parentage/ancestors. He however, was a tad too tall for his breed according to the AKC and therefore was considered pet quality.

 

He might have been just pet quality but he was definitely a quality pet.  :001_wub:  :wub:

 

I am so sorry for your loss. It has taken me almost 3 years to get to the point of even thinking about getting another dog after losing Miranda. I bought him from a breeder who said that he was too tall for the breed standard. Both of his parents were champion dogs. He was a gorgeous parti color (b/w) cocker. Everyone used to ask me why I didn't show him -- he was stunning. I honestly think he could have been a great people/kid dog if I would have socialized him more when he was little. But, he spent a lot of time at dog daycare because I was working such long hours. By the time I had my oldest, Miranda was already a very senior dog. A child in a small space was no doubt a big shock to him. 

[Danestress]

My mom has a cavapoo/cavadoodle. Lovely dog but she barks a lot. I would probably jump overboard on a long journey with her. But she is snuggly, great with children, non-shedding, She is bigger than my mother expected - 22 pounds, and would be tough on a long flight as a lap dog.

[Ellie]

My experience is that being endorsed by the AKC means NOTHING.  They endorse puppy mills and crappy breeders.  Having spent thousands trying to save a puppy from a breeder recommended to me by the AKC...I'll never trust them again.

 

 

AKC does not *endorse* anyone. I don't believe that ACK "recommends" breeders, either; there are lists of breeders which have AKC-registered dogs, but that is not a "recommendation".

 

I'm very sorry, of course, that you had such a bad experience. :-( But it is not AKC's fault.

[Pawz4me]

The Cavachon, Spoodle, and Cavoodle all look like possibilities. What do the experienced dog folks have to say about these types of crosses? 

 

I'm conflicted.

 

I think it's rather arrogant to say they shouldn't exist at all.  After all, people intentionally breeding dogs is how we got all the breeds we have today.  And who am I to say we already have enough breeds?

 

But OTOH -- Historically breeds were developed to fill a need.  Often that was a local need for a hunting, herding or guarding dog with a bit different skill set or temperament than any existing breeds.  They were almost always bred with a purpose and an end goal in mind, even if it was just warming the feet of the royal ladies.

 

The important point (to my way of thinking) is that as far as I know money was not the purpose or the end goal.

 

And as far as I can tell money pretty much IS the purpose and end goal of the breeders of all these "spoos" and "doodles" and "chons" and what have yous.  I just can't see that any of those "breeds" fill any sort of need that isn't already being ably handled by other breeds already in existence.

 

Even the man who first came up with the idea of breeding Labradoodles--a man who did know (or certainly should have known) what he was doing with regard to breeding, and who definitely did have a purpose and an end goal that was much more noble than wanting to make money--totally regrets that he did it.

 

Quoting from the article:

 

 

 

I opened a Pandora's box, that's what I did. I released a Frankenstein. So many people are just breeding for the money. So many of these dogs have physical problems, and a lot of them are just crazy.

 

You know that American president Obama announced he was thinking of getting a Labradoodle. So I wrote him a letter saying what the pitfalls were. I said 'If you are going to buy a Labradoodle, check both of the parents, make sure they have a certificate. A lot of them are untrainable, and a lot of them are no good for people with allergies.' I don't know if he was listening to me but he didn't get one in the end.

 

Today I am internationally credited as the first person to breed the Labradoodle. People ask me 'Aren't you proud of yourself?' I tell them 'No! Not in the slightest.' I've done so much harm to pure breeding and made so many charlatans quite rich. I wonder, in my retirement, whether we bred a designer dog—or a disaster!

 

I finished my interview with him by asking if he has ever kept a Labradoodle as a pet. "No way!" he told me in a shocked tone of voice. "My dogs are Labrador Retrievers—Rocky and Jazz. I only ever bred 31 Labradoodles. I'm on a pension and live in a little shoebox flat. If I'd gone into breeding Labradoodles for a living, I'd be on easy street. But there was no way I'd do it. My conscience wouldn't let me.

 

 

Also, if I had some concern about being able to find an ethical breeder of a breed that has been in existence for centuries and has a well established breed club(s), I'd have myself totally tied in knots thinking about finding an ethical breeder of one of these mixes.  I'm sure there are some of them.  But I believe about 99 percent of them are in it for the money.  Some of them are probably people who truly do adore their dogs.  You can adore your dogs and still breed them only for the money.  But when you don't have a breed club or a breed standard then what guides your program?  Who decides what's acceptable or not for the breed?  Who decides what health testing, if any, should be done?  How do you know what your goal is?  Bash the AKC and purebred breed clubs all you (generic) want to, but every single breed in existence has a standard that has been thoughtfully developed and honed over the years by people who truly love the breed.  And reputable breeders aim to meet those standards.  As someone who might be interested in adding a dog to my family I can read breed standards and descriptions and know what to expect in a puppy.  I can go to dog shows and every dog there of a particular breed is going to come very close to meeting that breed's standard.  If I decide that's the right breed for me I can then hunt for a good, ethical breeder and have a very good idea of what the puppy I'm getting will be like.  I can't do that with designer dogs because there are no breed standards, no breed club overseeing things, and Breeder A, B, C and D might all be breeding for totally different things.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Pawz4me

[Jean in Newcastle]

Sorry for this rabbit trail, OP, but aren't these designer dogs really just mutts where you know the breeds of the two parents?  Mutts that  you pay a lot of money for?

[ktgrok]

I was going to suggest a Cavalier King Charles. 

 

Me too.

[abcmommy]

I think buying a dog is an iffy proposition and I would NEVER do it.  I think dog breeding is borderline unethical.

 

Im partial to getting a mutt puppy and rearing it with your kids.  Ours happens to be some form of beagle hound lab (?) shepherd mix and she is too big for what you want but a nice small beagle mix would probably be readily available at any shelter.

[ktgrok]

For a smaller dog that is fabulous with kids, I would choose a Pug hands-down. I know-- the ugliness factor is sort of a turn off, but really-- they are such wonderful dogs! We just recently lost out 14-year-old Pug. He was the best dog ever.

 

I let me family talk me into a Golden Retriever puppy so that the kids could have that "big dog" experience... but really, I kind of wish we had another Pug. 

 

Love pugs, but they tend to get heat stroke easily because of the smooshed face. Not a great choice if they are going to be out in the sun/heat on a boat. 

 

Maybe a terrier would be better?

[SeaConquest]

I'm conflicted.

 

I think it's rather arrogant to say they shouldn't exist at all.  After all, people intentionally breeding dogs is how we got all the breeds we have today.  And who am I to say we already have enough breeds?

 

But OTOH -- Historically breeds were developed to fill a need.  Often that was a local need for a hunting, herding or guarding dog with a bit different skill set or temperament than any existing breeds.  They were almost always bred with a purpose and an end goal in mind, even if it was just warming the feet of the royal ladies.

 

The important point (to my way of thinking) is that as far as I know money was not the purpose or the end goal.

 

And as far as I can tell money pretty much IS the purpose and end goal of the breeders of all these "spoos" and "doodles" and "chons" and what have yous.  I just can't see that any of those "breeds" fill any sort of need that isn't already being ably handled by other breeds already in existence.

 

Even the man who first came up with the idea of breeding Labradoodles--a man who did know (or certainly should have known) what he was doing with regard to breeding, and who definitely did have a purpose and an end goal that was much more noble than wanting to make money--totally regrets that he did it.

 

Quoting from the article:

 

 

 

 

 

Also, if I had some concern about being able to find an ethical breeder of a breed that has been in existence for centuries and has a well established breed club(s), I'd have myself totally tied in knots thinking about finding an ethical breeder of one of these mixes.  I'm sure there are some of them.  But I believe about 99 percent of them are in it for the money.  Some of them are probably people who truly do adore their dogs.  You can adore your dogs and still breed them only for the money.  But when you don't have a breed club or a breed standard then what guides your program?  Who decides what's acceptable or not for the breed?  Who decides what health testing, if any, should be done?  How do you know what your goal is?  Bash the AKC and purebred breed clubs all you (generic) want to, but every single breed in existence has a standard that has been thoughtfully developed and honed over the years by people who truly love the breed.  And reputable breeders aim to meet those standards.  As someone who might be interested in adding a dog to my family I can read breed standards and descriptions and know what to expect in a puppy.  I can go to dog shows and every dog there of a particular breed is going to come very close to meeting that breed's standard.  If I decide that's the right breed for me I can then hunt for a good, ethical breeder and have a very good idea of what the puppy I'm getting will be like.  I can't do that with designer dogs because there are no breed standards, no breed club overseeing things, and Breeder A, B, C and D might all be breeding for totally different things.

 

 

This is excellent information. I appreciate you sharing your perspective with me. I have a hard enough time ethically justifying (thinking about) getting a purebred dog, when so many other dogs are in need of good homes. I definitely don't want to contribute to further breeding of the sort you described. So, again, thank you for sharing your perspective. If we don't end up getting a purebred (my husband's preference), we will definitely work with a rescue to find us a suitable match (my preference).  

[ktgrok]

What about a beagle? Some are pretty small. Or a jack russel (or parson's or whatever they call them now). Something short coated seems better for on a boat, playing in water and such all the time. 

Edited May 8, 2016 by ktgrok

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have never had a terrier. Westies seems to be pretty strong willed, and, one of the videos said that they don't make great lap dogs. How do you think one would do being confined on an airplane or in a small space like an RV or sailboat?

 I agree with what is in this link:  I don't really know the answer to your question about small spaces.

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/westhighlandwhiteterriers.html

[SeaConquest]

I think buying a dog is an iffy proposition and I would NEVER do it.  I think dog breeding is borderline unethical.

 

Im partial to getting a mutt puppy and rearing it with your kids.  Ours happens to be some form of beagle hound lab (?) shepherd mix and she is too big for what you want but a nice small beagle mix would probably be readily available at any shelter.

 

My only issue with mutts is just not knowing what you are getting breed-wise/health-wise. There are some adorable Beagle mutt pups that I found at a local rescue, but I am nervous about introducing an unknown breed to young children. How much can you really tell about personality/disposition and long-term fit from meeting a rescue puppy of unknown breeding and background at Petco?

 

I am not the type of person to give up on an animal. For me, it is a lifetime commitment. So, I want to make a wise decision about what we get, YKWIM? 

[SeaConquest]

What about a beagle? Some are pretty small. Or a jack russel (or parson's or whatever they call them now). Something short coated seems better for on a boat, playing in water and such all the time. 

 

I love beagles, but I am concerned about howling (apartments, marinas, RV campgrounds are all about living with other people in small spaces), the amount of exercise they may need, house training, and how well they would do in-cabin on an airplane ride (to Montreal from San Diego, for example). 

[abcmommy]

My only issue with mutts is just not knowing what you are getting breed-wise/health-wise. There are some adorable Beagle mutt pups that I found at a local rescue, but I am nervous about introducing an unknown breed to young children. How much can you really tell about personality/disposition and long-term fit from meeting a rescue puppy of unknown breeding and background at Petco?

 

I am not the type of person to give up on an animal. For me, it is a lifetime commitment. So, I want to make a wise decision about what we get, YKWIM? 

 

 

You never know what you are getting breed/ health wise with a breeder either.  My uncle got his kids a pure bred golden from a very reputable breeder.  That dog died of cancer at age 6.  

 

A puppy is not a blank slate personality wise but you can tell a lot- is the pup overly aggressive or fearful?  My pup was a big dork from day one, who sought attention and while playful showed no aggression.  She was fostered not caged.  I had no doubts about personality tho we still wonder what she is exactly.

[Bluegoat]

Or you can get a dog who has the health issues of both parent breeds.  Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of people who are breeding mixed breeds don't know or care much about genetics and health screenings.

 

You could, but it's less likely. 

[Bluegoat]

Wow. Thank you all so much for sharing this kind of information. So heartbreaking!

 

I have had a look at some of the Cav rescues, and I agree that I don't think we will have a chance of adopting one that would be comfortable in our home.

 

Do you think it is worth it to try to find a good Cav breeder? I mean, if the people breeding champion dogs, endorsed by the AKC, aren't being honest, what chance do we have of finding a good one? Also, we have no intention of breeding dogs -- how responsible/ethical would it be for the Cav breed for us to find one without these issues, and then have it spayed or neutered? It almost seems like we have an obligation to the breed to help breed healthy dogs.

 

Sigh. This is so complicated. Are there other smallish spaniels or spaniel crosses that might work well? What about Springers?

 

 

This is one of the catch-22s with health screenings, really.  Yes, they take dogs with specific problems out of the breeding pool.  But along with the problem genes, they take out a certain amount of genetic variation.  The fact that breeders don't want people who buy pets - but have dogs without genetic problems, to breed, means even more healthy dogs are taken out of the gene pool. In fact you would pay far more for breeding rights to a dog.

 

Mind you, its not likely any dog you will be sold will be used for anything but a pet anyway.