"6th graders in the richest school districts are 4 grade levels ahead of children in the poorest districts."

[Arcadia]

Apparently PTA mothers can practically match the US government in Bureaucratic nonsense.

 

We had the equivalent of congress shutdown here. There was a vote of no confidence. Lots of posturing and lobbying.

 

As for life skills, it is essential and yet with all the automation, people skills jobs aren't that many around here. Regardless of how rosy Silicon Valley looks on paper, there are many empty storefronts both big box stores and small business sized ones. Since Borders closed so many years ago, some stores are still empty with no tenants. Sports Authority is closing and that would leave some empty lots. We have friends of friends getting retrenched in the stem sector.

 

As with the thread on college remedial classes, there is no simple or clear solution.

[vonfirmath]

From what I hear from teachers, the fundraising funded schools have the headaches as well. Apparently PTA mothers can practically match the US government in Bureaucratic nonsense.

 

 

I was on our PTO board this year (Which was a crazy year. The first PResident quit when the Principals cancelled a PTO event due to weather -- and the district went on to cancel ALL district wide events that evening. So it was a real concern!) We had a hard time getting anyone to help plan or run events. I guess I should be thankful they at least came and attended.

 

I am stepping down from the board next year. I did not sign up to be part of a 5-person run all the events at both schools team. I thought I'd be taking notes and helping out. But when you get NO participation. NO PARENT coming to the meetings, etc... its discouraging and it is taking up too much time that I'd rather spend time doing elsewhere. I'll continue to help out. But I want to have the option to not attend every meeting, every event, etc. When I was on the board, I felt obligated to do so. Which was a minimum of 3 evenings a month for Board stuff (1 evening for the BOard meeting, then the school-wide PTO meeting, then an event every month.) on top of everything else. And that just turned out to be too much for me.

 

I'm about at the point of feeling that if the school (by non-participation) says it does not want all the events, then there is no reason for the Board to spend all the time they do in putting the events on.  OTOH I do realize the principals want events for the families to attend and get to know each other.

 

Both schools have a Book Fair Fall And Spring, and a Science and Math night once during the year and a Reading/Literature night once during the year.  The Elementary school had an ARt night this year. There is also Meet the Teacher night at the beginning of the school year and one time to go in and have a meeting with the teacher about your kid's progression.  Then every 9 weeks there is a school assembly (I only got to 1, for my son, this year). Once a year, they have a big music performance for school to attend.

 

On top of this add PTO meetings (two nights a month) and the PTO event (BINGO, dance, Holiday Festival, Carnival, Movie night, etc).

 

 

And then our family commitments of AWANA every Wednesday night and Choir every Sunday night. And working all day every day. And I'm just worn out with it all.

 

Edited May 6, 2016 by vonfirmath

[Frances]

This. The poor, the middles, the well-off, the educated, the uneducated, those of ALL religions and those of no religion do the same things, good and bad. One tidbit I read recently: a lady had 2 kids without marriage, then had another with a man she won't name. Had an affair with a married circus elephant trainer for one year, then left him abd moved her kids in with another circus worker for one more year before leaving him. Some could easily view this as an uneducated, maybe poor woman following those slightly creepy( another stereotype) traveling carnival workers. But it's Grace Kelly's daughter, Princess Stephanie of Monaco, who speaks at least 4 languages and is highly educated and musically gifted.

But recent research is also showing that one of the primary contributors to the growing inequality in the US is family structure. Those that are financially better off, in general, married before having children and stayed married. But cause and effect is interesting because one theory is that having money shields you from some of the typical stressors that can lead to divorce. And more education is also correlated with delayed childbearing and having fewer children.

[ElizabethB]

DH and I went to the same high school.

 

I grew up with a single, struggling, "just done at the end of the day" parent. There was a cultural expectation of doing well in school, but a subconscious expectation that "doing well" would not be something that would put a separation between us. I would get so upset growing up when I'd tell my mother what I was learning or doing or dreaming, and I was met with... a blank stare. She was trying to be encouraging, really, but what I saw as ambition, she saw as a wall being built between us.

 

And she's right. Those walls are painful or necessary, depending on what side of them you are on.

 

DH was upper middle class. His dad encouraged him to succeed in school, be independent, and take off across the country or world if necessary. The metaphorical "wall" was an expectation, and instead of struggling to watch it go up like my mom did, FIL was supportive in helping DH build it.

 

So take wealthy families and immigrant cultures with those "wall" expectations to one extreme (fully paid college, activities, after school tutoring), and on the other side you have families in poverty where the only riches they have is each other. And even if they could afford extra instruction or travel or camps, they're just helping to wall off their kids from a shared cultural experience.

 

I don't think funding or preschool or phonics can fix this.

But good methods like phonics can help.  And, it may take several generations, but that is no reason not to try, and everyone should have the opportunity to learn to read well and have their choices not be limited by poor methods.

 

We have friends whose parents both came from Mexico.  He worked his way through college while in the Air Force, and after he got out got a 100K+ per year job.  Their family stresses education, their 4 daughters all are at college or recently graduated now.  Mom taught English for a while, and helped out a few girls whose whole family and extended family worked on the line at a chicken plant.  The girls did well enough to get a free ride to any University, but it was too big a jump.  They are working as managers in the chicken plant and said "Our children will go to College, and at least we won't be plucking chickens.  We can't leave our family."

[DawnM]

My husband was raised by an abusive addict. An affluent doctor to be precise.

 

He did very well academically K-12 and was a national merit scholar with the scores, grades and extracurriculars to gain admission into ivies. So one had to wonder about the impact of other things like parental educational attainment (both parents were college educated working professionals and on his dad's side, college was the norm stretching back through generations), norms around education and quality of the school district they resided in.

 

I've seen parental neglect and the impact of addictions up close and personal, both in my extended family and in my past professional work. But there's ano entire other layer of this in our culture and that is the abusers and addicts who are too educated and affluent to all but very rarely end up accountable to social services or on anyone's radar.

 

 

Part of this is because they are still functional.  Once they become dysfunctional and can no longer hold down a job, the world crashes in far more.

 

Addicted to pain killers but not "caught" is different than strung out on heroine on the street corner selling your body (yes, I know I went to two absolute extremes there.)     

 

And there are exceptions for sure.  My cousin is a Pharmacist, or WAS a pharmacist.  He was addicted to pain meds and didn't get caught.  Once he added in alcohol he had no control and he has now lost his license and been in jail twice.

[Matryoshka]

Both extreme ends of the graphic fit what most people intuitively know, but I'm more interested in the rest of the curve.

 

My district has a median hh income of 57k. Our breakdown is 49% white, 23% Hispanic/Latino, 26% black, 2% Asian, and we're in the +.3.  Nearly half of our students qualify for free or reduced lunch.  This area was almost entirely white until the past 20 years or so.

 

My hometown has a median income of 101k with a breakdown of 78/15/4/3.  They're in the +.4.  That's an enormous difference in income and demographic with hardly any change in outcome.

 

Steubenville City, OH is an outlier with a 19k median income at 1.1 above average.

Meanwhile, Bonny Dune Union Elementary is over there with $149k, 93% white, and .2 below average.

 

I want to know more about the schools that aren't landing where they're expected to.

 

So you got me curious.  Holy heck, our schools are +3.4 grade levels above average. There's only about 3 schools above it???  Two are in neighboring towns.  Our demographic is about 78% white and 20% Asian (the honors classes are more like 50%).  While we have quite a high COL here, we're far from the most expensive town in the area(?) - as I guess you can see as we're still to the left of the far right line..  anyway, I wonder how they measured this vs other 'best schools' things, as we usually don't rate that high.

 

Yeah, and I homeschooled... :lol:  (well, okay, one went to the high school...)

 

And btw, while there were some great teachers at the high school, there were also some real horrible duds.  Don't even get me started with the AP Physics C teacher that taught concepts wrong, and there was no textbook, and he didn't teach the calc along with the physics he did teach, and often he got it wrong and the kids had to correct him.  There is a ton of tutoring and afterschooling here, especially in math and science.  If you go to the library in the afternoon, all the tables are taken up with kids and tutors (usually Asian kids in honors classes...  I know because they were my dd's classmates and I recognized them).  As well as Russian math, Kumon, etc. 

[LucyStoner]

Part of this is because they are still functional. Once they become dysfunctional and can no longer hold down a job, the world crashes in far more.

 

Addicted to pain killers but not "caught" is different than strung out on heroine on the street corner selling your body (yes, I know I went to two absolute extremes there.)

 

And there are exceptions for sure. My cousin is a Pharmacist, or WAS a pharmacist. He was addicted to pain meds and didn't get caught. Once he added in alcohol he had no control and he has now lost his license and been in jail twice.

Functional in public maybe. Functional at home? Don't count on it. My FIL got home from work, drank and abused the people around him and then drank until he passed out. In my husband's entire childhood he rarely brought a friend home with him. The first time I met his dad, his dad was throwing a tantrum about a fish falling apart on a grill. A full on tantrum as a 50+ year old man. My husband was so embarrassed. The bruises on their bodies healed. The emotional damage lingers and the man is dead.

[vonfirmath]

Putting in a few districts -- our current district is +0.1 of average  (28% white, 42% Hispanic, 20% black, 10% asian/Other) The local big city is -0.1 of average

 

The school district I grew up in (Aldine?) -0.5 of average (and I think I had a great education! Though my dad was concerned about the HS so he moved us)

 

My HS? (College station) a whopping +1.2 of grade average!  WHich is the same as the city just north of us... meaning maybe I should reconsider moving if my kids stay in public schools...

 

But really, these all seem to be hovering close to each other.

[Bluegoat]

It IS different social/cultural standards. Do you think they do it because it is NOT normative and effective for them? I don't.

 

They live in an area where the culture is very attune to position, and aggressively enforced, which is determined very clearly by a cultural code you don't see. To you it's an unnoticeable action being met unreasonably. But it isn't. In their culture, they both very likely knew exactly how the action was an infraction and bet no one was acting all surprised by the result either. And from their point of view, their culture so to speak, us uppity people getting our knickers in a wade over some cuss words loudly spoken around kids is just silly. But obviously you think loudly cussing in anger around kids is much more than just some words. It crosses your cultural acceptance into an area of unacceptable infraction.

 

And you're right, it does cause problems when they send their kids to schools taught and run mostly by people who don't share their cultural background and view it as less than. Hence my point about how it self prophecizing a kids failure in class.

 

Yes, they need coaching on expectations outside of their subculture, but by sending the message home everyday that they are automaticly disadvantaged and unlikely to succeed bc of the culture they are born into - it's unlikely they will be very receptive to that coaching.

 

You know, it seems to me that you are being pretty judgmental here.  I'm not generally someone that is offended by other people's behaviors, or insensitive to cultural variations.  I'm probably a lot more likely than some on these borads to be worried about different cultural expectations around disapline, gender, and a host of other things.

 

I have no doubt that the interactions make sense to the people who are involved with them. (Though - not to all of the people who live there - there are certainly other people in the community, born and raised there, who should, in your view, have the same expectations, but don't,)

 

I do think that some types of social interactions, even if they seem normal in whatever context they are happening, are not good.  And not simply because they create conflict with judgmental uppity people like myself, but because they create an unhealthy environment for the people themselves.  I don't think it is chance that those same playgrounds and the schools in that particular area also have a much higher incidence of violence, or that there are problems with violence in the community among adults as well, or that DV is more common. 

 

Maybe I am wrong and all cultural expectations around behavior are ok and healthy.  I've just never actually met anyone who really thinks that when it comes down to it.

[Bluegoat]

I don't think anyone is saying that all people living in poverty are living lives of addicts and criminals. But it's also not fair to dismiss that this is true for some. 

 

I did several breastfeeding sessions with at risk mothers, through a program that was designed to provide parenting support. I'm in a large area with a fairly vibrant social service network, public health programs, and numerous outreach programs to assist families facing significant barriers. 

 

It was extremely eye opening. Some of us needed debriefing afterwards. 

 

The social workers told us it was nothing compared to what they were dealing with in the poorer neighbourhoods, or in some smaller or more disadvantaged communities. 

 

I've read reports that here it is estimated that about 20% of mothers who require social service intervention have clinical alcohol abuse problems, and another ~15% have other substance abuse issues. If they're clean, their partners or family members possibly are not, or their friends aren't. It's just such a hard thing to break out of. Some of them choose to just walk away but for many, it's just impossible, especially when it's deeply interwoven with cultural/ethnic identity. They can't really distance themselves too much from their communities but the communities are not very supportive & sometimes are outright disruptive. 

 

The moms face multiple barriers - lack of education, substance abuse, mental illness, young age. They are trying hard but I think it was very, very difficult for them. The children were frequently difficult children, kwim? Some may have had fetal exposure, some had health problems. It takes a lot of patience and skill to cope with parenting a child with additional needs. So many supports are needed for these families.... 

 

Yes - there are reasons beyond having different cultural values that "at risk" communities are at risk.

 

My church is in the middle of an inner city community.  THey along with a few other groups do many kinds of different outreach.  For all kinds of reasons, there is a high proportion of families with significant problems.  A lot of kids are really left alone or neglected.  Some of it is money, some of it is substance abuse, some of it is metal illness or personality disorders. 

 

Kids that are being neglected in close quarters in a lot of cases are getting involved in adult activities very young.  Not because people in the community have some cultural value that says it is ok, because a lot of them don't.  But because in the families with problems the kids are left to themselves without much effort to shield them from mature behaviors.  Kids who start using drugs often start very young, they are exposed to age inappropriate sexual material very young which can affect behavior.

 

I think many of the people who come from that community who are working to help those kids and families would be pretty offended if they were told that this stuff is just what should be accepted because it is their culture.

[pinkmint]

You just assume that everyone is just as caring and well meaning as you are, you literally cannot conceive of the neglect and raunchiness that some children have to live with.

 

I think this is huge. All these high-brow 6 figure earning yuppies who write articles, plus all the parents who care so much about parenting that they participate in a message board like this have a hard time even considering what is often the truth: a lot of these parents just don't give a sh*t. It's apparently very controversial to even suggest that. 

 

And no, it's NOT across the board the only problem. But it's a huge problem that people don't seem to want to even consider.

 

And as far as race, the mindset of "it's their culture" seems more racist to me. So if you see a parent in the store hitting their toddler and saying "Shut the f*** up little n*gga!" you'd say "It's ok because it's their culture." ?! There are African American parents out there doing their best to raise their children right who would find that highly offensive. 

[JumpyTheFrog]

I think this is huge. All these high-brow 6 figure earning yuppies who write articles, plus all the parents who care so much about parenting that they participate in a message board like this have a hard time even considering what is often the truth: a lot of these parents just don't give a sh*t. It's apparently very controversial to even suggest that.

 

Yes. All of us on this forum are here because we take education and child raising seriously. We shouldn't have to worry about being branded some sort of "ist" to suggest that not everyone really cares that much. It's obvious that not everyone cares about music, sports, politics, taking care of their yares, or maintaining their homes. Why should the assumption be that all parents care about properly raising their kids? Sure, many struggle due to all sorts of obstacles, but that doesn't mean that everyone truly cares.

[SKL]

I do think it's instinctive to care about your kids, unlike sports and yards etc.  But instincts are apparently dulled by certain things - especially drugs and mental illness.  I wouldn't assume parents don't care just because they live in a certain neighborhood, but there is pretty clear evidence at times.

Edited May 6, 2016 by SKL

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I think this is huge. All these high-brow 6 figure earning yuppies who write articles, plus all the parents who care so much about parenting that they participate in a message board like this have a hard time even considering what is often the truth: a lot of these parents just don't give a sh*t. It's apparently very controversial to even suggest that.

 

And no, it's NOT across the board the only problem. But it's a huge problem that people don't seem to want to even consider.

 

And as far as race, the mindset of "it's their culture" seems more racist to me. So if you see a parent in the store hitting their toddler and saying "Shut the f*** up little n*gga!" you'd say "It's ok because it's their culture." ?! There are African American parents out there doing their best to raise their children right who would find that highly offensive.

I don't know if you could miss the point of what as being said earlier more if you tried. No one said a word about excusing child abuse for "cultural" reasons, or even at all.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I do think it's instinctive to care about your kids, unlike sports and yards etc. But instincts are apparently dulled by certain things - especially drugs and mental illness. I wouldn't assume parents don't care just because they live in a certain neighborhood, but there is pretty clear evidence at times.

Instinct. Hmm...that is something to consider. I think it is worth considering why people may lack it.

[myfunnybunch]

Right. And someone else already mentioned that state funding is just part of the funding schools get. In wealthier districts, they get a LOT private funding. They have big companies donating materials and sponsoring things. Ghetto schools just don't get much if any of that comparably.

Yes.

 

There are perks in well-off districts/neighborhoods that aren't easily accounted for in school budgets. Parents who own businesses often make donations to schools, as do other community businesses. Families with at-home, or part-time employed, or flexible shift parents can volunteer time at schools, which means adults can sit with kids to listen to them read or gets a lot of the little easy jobs out of the way, which gives staff more time to focus on education instead of stapling papers. The PTO at our neighborhood school raises enough money every year to supplement salaries so that the school can have music and PE, which provides direct educational benefit and allows teacher prep time. The community has greater resources, so they can get churches and community organizations together to pack food boxes for hungry children. Schools and surrounding communities have space for gardens, so the lunch buffet is supplemented with fresh vegetables grown by students and community volunteers. And so on. Even the lowest income schools and difficult neighborhoods in my city are surrounded by a relatively stable community, so they are able to get some outside support to make schools safe welcoming places for their students. But I can't imagine what might happen, on the same budget, if those schools were picked up and plopped into a community with strained or no resources.

[madteaparty]

Again addressing those that say that family/community culture is the issue here. That is precisely why schools need to be great across the board. There needs to be a minimum federal standard for teaching, afterschool, sports, nutrition that all schools need to meet. Education, like basic healthcare, is a human right. Blaming family culture is another way to kick the can as far from ourselves as possible. I've visited schools in France in what could be called economically depressed areas (local school is half empty because people have left the area) and the little minivan pulls up with fresh food and local produce each day, for the maybe 50 kids at that school.

One of my siblings lives in what would be called a developing country and her child's elem school is far nicer than the one my boy went to in the middle on NYC. It actually has cooks on staff. This is a public neighborhood school. I recall driving through rural Costa Rica and noticing that schools and churches have the nicest buildings..

The state of education here is just another victim of late capitalism taken to its logical conclusion.

[DawnM]

Functional in public maybe. Functional at home? Don't count on it. My FIL got home from work, drank and abused the people around him and then drank until he passed out. In my husband's entire childhood he rarely brought a friend home with him. The first time I met his dad, his dad was throwing a tantrum about a fish falling apart on a grill. A full on tantrum as a 50+ year old man. My husband was so embarrassed. The bruises on their bodies healed. The emotional damage lingers and the man is dead.

 

 

I get that.  I fully understand it.  It affected your husband.  It affected their family emotionally, but we are discussing poverty and how it affects schools, not abuse in individual families.  When I think of poverty and drugs, I don't think affluent doctor.

 

The abuse is a whole different thread.

[DawnM]

Again addressing those that say that family/community culture is the issue here. That is precisely why schools need to be great across the board. There needs to be a minimum federal standard for teaching, afterschool, sports, nutrition that all schools need to meet. Education, like basic healthcare, is a human right. Blaming family culture is another way to kick the can as far from ourselves as possible. I've visited schools in France in what could be called economically depressed areas (local school is half empty because people have left the area) and the little minivan pulls up with fresh food and local produce each day, for the maybe 50 kids at that school.

One of my siblings lives in what would be called a developing country and her child's elem school is far nicer than the one my boy went to in the middle on NYC. It actually has cooks on staff. This is a public neighborhood school. I recall driving through rural Costa Rica and noticing that schools and churches have the nicest buildings..

The state of education here is just another victim of late capitalism taken to its logical conclusion.

 

 

You can have great teaching all day long, but if the students aren't coming to school when they should, they aren't getting the education they need.   Never mind the transiency rate that causes kids to have huge gaps in their learning.  We had 5,400 students in our high school.  1,500 left throughout the year and 1,500 new students came in.  It was like a revolving door.  And on any given day, 20% of the student body just didn't show up.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

I get that.  I fully understand it.  It affected your husband.  It affected their family emotionally, but we are discussing poverty and how it affects schools, not abuse in individual families.  When I think of poverty and drugs, I don't think affluent doctor.

 

The abuse is a whole different thread.

 

Yeah I do think here at least, the schools try very hard to address the issues with poverty that could be affecting their students.  Stuff like free lunch and breakfast and sending home food on the weekends for those students identified as really being hard up.  They almost never cancel for snow days because they know that means kids being left alone at home and some not getting food.  Some organizations take care of the school supplies, school clothes, etc. They will do all the medical stuff free as needed.  Food is often provided when they invite parents to come in for conferences. 

 

But at the same time I think this has stretched the schools to the limit.  They can't focus perfectly on everything.  It's like they are trying to be all things to some of these kids.  I think maybe they would benefit from having some of that taken off their shoulders and being able focus on education more than they currently can.

 

And then on the other end of this, the schools don't offer much in the way of accelerated programming.  Gifted programming is very limited.  I doubt many ever go onto selective colleges because the school's reputation is not good in terms of academics.  So if we wanted to get more wealth moving into the city, forget it.  What fairly well off family wants to move here with the schools the way they are?  Only reason I moved here is because I had no intentions of ever sending my kids to school.  And the schools are not safe. 

 

So it is this vicious cycle with no apparent end in sight. 

[Bluegoat]

I don't know if you could miss the point of what as being said earlier more if you tried. No one said a word about excusing child abuse for "cultural" reasons, or even at all.

 

It was suggested that people who judged certain kinds of parenting - like letting young kids be exposed to explicit sexual material or talk, were just being culturally insensitive and placing their white parenting expectations on others.

 

THe point several people have made is that some kinds of normalized parenting behaviors, even if they are part of a culture, are bad.  A culture that allows, say, for belting kids who disobey, is bad.

 

To say that having opinions about practices being bad is just some kind of cultural insensitivity or being unable to step out of our experience, would also tend to mean the same would be true for clearly abusive practices that had become normative or common in a community.

[Slojo]

I always wonder what is the point of infographics and statistics if people can't actually use them to have a real conversation. If discussing race or culture is verboden when trying to get to the root of success or failure in groups of people, why even collect the data? Just because a subject is sensitive shouldn't mean it's off limits. 

We should discuss them, but a real conversation about this stuff should probably leaving everyone feeling a bit uncomfortable. Your discussing race or culture is fine, but, yes, I might hold you to a bit more rigor in your thinking than what often comes from the "it's just their culture crew." 

 

Those discussions do occur. However, when the discussion sometimes drifts to "those people" are just different, then it really isn't useful.

 

There is nothing wrong with observing a difference between group X and group Y, and then digging deeper to find the reasons for the difference.  One does need to be cautious that the difference is simply written off as being due to a difference in "culture", as that has often been used as a code implying inherent racial differences. 

This - exactly.

 

I wouldn't say it's just culture.

 

Free/close to free doesn't mean necessarily available. What if you live far from a library? And your parents are working multiple jobs to hopefully pay the bills? A trip to the library might just not be possible (gas, time etc...).

 

And those same parents are just done at the end of the day. If there's food on the table, it's been a terrific day. That doesn't mean those parents are unloving (which, btw, I know you didn't say). 

 

It just means that their financial, mental, emotional resources are maxed out. 

 

Frankly, if I were struggling to keep food on the table, storytime, crayons, reading books etc...would not be priority #1.  And that comes from someone who knows how beneficial those things are. It would be so easy to let them slide in order to focus on immediate needs.

And this. 

 

No kidding. Like rich smart people don't cuss or listen to loud music. What a mythological level of stereotyping load of poop.

Yep, it's called fraternities. Really, some of the vilest, rudest behavior I've ever experienced were from the "future, upstanding citizens" that frequent the frat houses on American college campuses. And to think some those folks are making really important decisions right now in business and government. 

 

Yes, I am judging.  "I just can't" with people who can't judge it to be filth.

 

Maybe they are judging what I listen to as filth.  But I doubt it.  Because while I've listened to many kinds of music, I have never listened to any kind that I had sexual acts described in those manners.  Nor have most of the people I have met in my life.  Because while we can all question the value of rock/country/grunge/classical/Latin/pop/etc., none of them (at least that I have heard) have lyrics in even the same ball park as that.  That is hard core porn for the ears.  Other forms of music are simply not comparable.

 

ETA: Most people believe that they are better than some other people.  Charles Manson?  Jeffery Dahmer? Rapists? Hitler?  Unless you literally believe that you are better than no people, ever (in which case, congratulations, you are better than me, at least by that standard), then the only difference is where we draw the lines.  I have no problem drawing the line with me on the other side from people who spew that vileness into the air and force others and small children to have to hear it.

 

Yes - Charles Manson? Hitler? Yep, I'm probably a better person than them. But, really you lump the "lewd lyrics" family in with Hitler?  Certainly, I have passing judgmental thoughts about all sorts of people. But I also have an internal filter that allows me to "check myself before I wreck myself", and ask, do I really have the entire picture? Whom does it serve for me to respond in X way about this?  Can I get my needs addressed without making them "less than?" It's only then where I am operating as my highest and best self.  I get that it is distressing to hear vile music in a public space, but, yeah, the whole vilification of a group of "those people" feels a bit dangerous to me. You are capable of much more complex, multi-dimensional thinking here.

[SparklyUnicorn]

It was suggested that people who judged certain kinds of parenting - like letting young kids be exposed to explicit sexual material or talk, were just being culturally insensitive and placing their white parenting expectations on others.

 

THe point several people have made is that some kinds of normalized parenting behaviors, even if they are part of a culture, are bad.  A culture that allows, say, for belting kids who disobey, is bad.

 

To say that having opinions about practices being bad is just some kind of cultural insensitivity or being unable to step out of our experience, would also tend to mean the same would be true for clearly abusive practices that had become normative or common in a community.

 

Yeah this is a tough one.  I don't have rules against certain things that other parents might freak out about.  I don't think this makes me a bad parent, and I have certainly thought these things through. And there are things other parents do that I would not do.  But so long as we aren't abusing our kids we have to allow for the fact some people have very different ideas about things.

 

Like the explicit music stuff.  I could care less if my kids listen to explicit music quite frankly.  In the example my bigger issue wasn't the actual music, but going to a public place and blasting music.  That is obnoxious in my mind, and I would not let my kids do that and I would not do that.  But the music itself is just so low on my list of things I give a damn about. 

 

So should people conclude that since I allow my kids to listen to whatever music they want that I also take drugs or give them drugs?  I mean come on.  Or that I don't care about them.  I do care quite a bit.  I just don't get wigged out over music.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Bad is an unhelpful word to use.

 

Parenting behaviours can be helpful or unhelpful in terms of good outcomes. I've seen a lot of research on the unhelpful outcomes of belting a child, less so on letting them listen to rap...

 

Either way, there's a lot of judgement in this thread and not a lot of compassion. Not in a million years - even as a 'professional mom' - would I claim to care more about my kids than some other mom. Frankly, I just count my blessings that my circumstances allow me to express that caring in behaviours that help more than they harm. There but for the grace of (God, destiny, sheer random luck) go I....

 

Plus seriously, where do we learn how to be parents?  We are thrown into the middle of the ocean.  We sink or we swim.  Maybe we take some cues from our own parents who might have not been the best parents.  We have our own strengths, weaknesses, hangups, problems, etc.  Some people suck at dealing with their problems, and they do less than ideal things to cope.  Unless this is all very extreme, we can't go picking apart every little thing parents are doing.  And bottom line, being poor is not a crime.  Yes your kids' lives will be harder if you are poor, but you are not committing some sort of crime and you aren't less of a human being because you are poor.  And not all poor people are on drugs or running a brothel in their apartment. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

It was suggested that people who judged certain kinds of parenting - like letting young kids be exposed to explicit sexual material or talk, were just being culturally insensitive and placing their white parenting expectations on others.

 

THe point several people have made is that some kinds of normalized parenting behaviors, even if they are part of a culture, are bad. A culture that allows, say, for belting kids who disobey, is bad.

 

To say that having opinions about practices being bad is just some kind of cultural insensitivity or being unable to step out of our experience, would also tend to mean the same would be true for clearly abusive practices that had become normative or common in a community.

That isn't what was said. It was pointed out a parents letting children hear explicit lyrics does not mean they are bad parents.

[SparklyUnicorn]

My guess is just confusion from jumping in and out of this conversation. 

 

I don't pay close attention sometimes...well most of the time.

 

Just being honest... :blush:

[hamzahqadri1]

Excellent points, just chimming in. I've been married going on 18 plus years with eight children by the same lady.... (what a blessing).. The environment that children grow up in is what matters the most. Rich or Poor the same issues exist. Drugs, women, and a host of other things. I believe in surrounding a child with as much help as needed for them to succede in life. We've our own property with chickens and home school our children. Life is short the best chance we have is to invest in our children's future.... (just my two cent)

Nice chat!

 

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[Murphy101]

My parents didn't care about me. That's not a judgement call. It's a fact.

 

But whether my parents cared about me shouldn't have affected whether my teachers were just as qualified and just as willing to teach me and had just as decent basic materials for me as my classmates. But it totally did. A kid knows when they are being written off by the institution they are spending 6-8 hours a day 5 days a week sitting in. And yeah, it does just about as much to encourage them in education as their parents not caring at home. Go figure.

 

Yes, home life affects a child.

But it shouldn't affect the education they are given at school.

 

These kids don't show up suddenly hating school and thinking it is pointless at 14. It takes years of going to school to make them come to that conclusion.

 

Yes, it's more than just the school. But yeah, it's time schools owned that what they give these kids is less than because they are being written off by society.

 

I'm not saying bad unloving parents are okay or don't exist.

I'm saying treating them like bad unloving parents might make us feel validated but it doesn't help their kids get a better education or life. You have to work with what you've got if you want to change things.

[hamzahqadri1]

Agreed!

I'm a student of life. Learn ever day and i thanks you for the last responce...

 

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[ktgrok]

Also, when short term crises are overwhelming you it is hard to care about long term issues like education. When you don't have money to eat, it's hard to worry about crayons. When you are worried about your child being shot on the way to school it's easier to let them fake sick and stay home. When you don't anticipate living to 20, it's hard to care about your grades. 

[Bluegoat]

Yeah this is a tough one.  I don't have rules against certain things that other parents might freak out about.  I don't think this makes me a bad parent, and I have certainly thought these things through. And there are things other parents do that I would not do.  But so long as we aren't abusing our kids we have to allow for the fact some people have very different ideas about things.

 

Like the explicit music stuff.  I could care less if my kids listen to explicit music quite frankly.  In the example my bigger issue wasn't the actual music, but going to a public place and blasting music.  That is obnoxious in my mind, and I would not let my kids do that and I would not do that.  But the music itself is just so low on my list of things I give a damn about. 

 

So should people conclude that since I allow my kids to listen to whatever music they want that I also take drugs or give them drugs?  I mean come on.  Or that I don't care about them.  I do care quite a bit.  I just don't get wigged out over music.

 

Making some kind of individual judgenet of parents on the basis of hearing particular music in their car to me is way over the top, for sure.  It just isn't enough information to conclude anything, much less that they don't love their kids.  Most of what we all do is just what we see around us and we don't think every little thing to death.  And a lot of people don't even hear music lyrics, and many others don't think of them as really meaningful.  Even if those parents did have some kind of sexual issues, that would not mean anything about how they felt about their kids.

 

I do though think the kind of music that I think was being described is bad for people, including kids.  Not just because it's explicit, but because I think the attitude to sex (and usually women) is unhealthy.  It's one thing for an adult to hear that kind of thing, presumably they have some ideas of their own.  Kids though are a little more ready to have their attitudes shaped.

[Bluegoat]

That isn't what was said. It was pointed out a parents letting children hear explicit lyrics does not mean they are bad parents.

 

That was said, but it sure wasn't the only thing that was said.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

That was said, but it sure wasn't the only thing that was said.

Someone went off on a tirade about every kid in bad neighborhoods watching hardcore porn, and it was pointed out that wasn't true.

 

There was some other silliness but Murphy and some others have dashed through it pretty well.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Also, when short term crises are overwhelming you it is hard to care about long term issues like education. When you don't have money to eat, it's hard to worry about crayons. When you are worried about your child being shot on the way to school it's easier to let them fake sick and stay home. When you don't anticipate living to 20, it's hard to care about your grades.

+1

People also need hope. When boys in certain neighborhoods don't expect to live past 25, it is tough to get them to see the value in an education.

[Arcadia]

But whether my parents cared about me shouldn't have affected whether my teachers were just as qualified and just as willing to teach me and had just as decent basic materials for me as my classmates. But it totally did.

My kids get a nicer and better placement for Kindergarten because I was used to playing the game of knowing who the gatekeeper is. My kids get generally better treatment from their teachers because we read up the state laws and advocate for our kids. My kids had a lot more placement tests done then their classmates and their teachers show me my kids thick ream of testing. I didn't even know that was non-standard until my neighbors said they didn't get to see their kids test results and the parent teacher conference was very short.

 

My neighbors and my hubby called our state's department of education a few years back to say our district is not following the letter of the law. The DoE warned my district who then pacify only those parents who called DoE.

 

Another weird bias that I noticed was my kids get better music instruction from their music teachers once I mentioned that I play the piano (because the teachers ask). If I add on that my hubby plays the clarinet, my kids get even more attention on them. Same goes for music shop staff, their tone goes from politely nice to professionally nice.

[Murphy101]

Yes. Braided hair syndrome.

[hamzahqadri1]

Explicit Music/TV and or content allows somone to' options. Most of the time "BAD" Kids are being brainwashed to do things that don't help their immediate situation. Has anyone seen the movie gifted hands?

Ben Carson?

Yeah it's a succes story. A story in which somone rising up from poverty becasue of a strong parent changing the environment. Making her kids turn the Tv off and reading...Putting in positive ideas untill her kids started to believe. From being impoverished they freed their minds and the rest followed.

 

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[LucyStoner]

I get that. I fully understand it. It affected your husband. It affected their family emotionally, but we are discussing poverty and how it affects schools, not abuse in individual families. When I think of poverty and drugs, I don't think affluent doctor.

 

The abuse is a whole different thread.

There are plenty of impoverished families who are not dysfunctional, abusive or dealing with addictions. I added that post to highlight that poverty=/=abuse and that abuse=/=poor academic performance. I also think it did come into play in their schooling. Once they hit college both my husband and my BIL floundered. My husband bounced back. My BIL has a degree he doesn't use and he is not able to work. It's not less traumatic or impactful because they lived in a big house in the country and had money.

 

It's too easy for people to over generalize and I have bluntly seen a lot of that on this thread. It smacks of classism (heck even my first post probably smacks of classism so let it be known I am calling myself out) and it really needs to be evaluated before people draw any conclusions.

 

Statistically the thing that had the most impact of reducing the achievement gap is something we have turned our backs on and that's school integration. There was a series not too long ago on This American Life. People should check it out.

Edited May 7, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Murphy101]

Also, when short term crises are overwhelming you it is hard to care about long term issues like education. When you don't have money to eat, it's hard to worry about crayons. When you are worried about your child being shot on the way to school it's easier to let them fake sick and stay home. When you don't anticipate living to 20, it's hard to care about your grades.

As a mom who during her child rearing years has has many hypermesis pregnancies. Whose mom died. Whose dh has had a couple health issues over the years. Who didn't have extended family for anything. Who had to get by with one family vehicle and a low paycheck, which meant if it was outside school hours probably couldn't happen...

 

Life is not a statis endeavor.

 

And yet not once as a home schooler have all of those things happening in the last 20 years managed to screw my kids out of a basic or better education. And that's with many months where I didn't manage to teach anything other than don't touch my IV pole and wipe the pop tart crumbs off before sitting next to me on the sofa to watch tv.

 

It shouldn't mean being cheated out of a basic education for any other family's children either.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Murphy101

[MistyMountain]

Of course drug use and abuse is a problem and there are bad parents but most poor parents are not addicted to drugs and abusive. There are lots of poor families that do not abuse substances and families with higher income levels that do.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/racial-disparity-drug-use_n_3941346.html This addresses race not income but it shows that black people have lower over all substance use rates yet the disproportionately are arrested more. We cannot assume that all low income people abuse substances. They are getting arrested more which farther hurts their chances of getting out of poverty. The war on drugs did not work. The drugs rates have not lowered but people especially poor people are serving longer sentences in jail with rehabilitation being cut. There are a lot of people in bad neighborhoods that sell drugs for income but do not use drugs.

 

There are a lot of factors that went into neighborhoods deteriating and it took decades for it to occur. I have observed bad language, and very young kids talking about sex in a graphic way in lower income neighborhoods. I know friends who work in the schools and desribed the kids are very disrespectful. It is a shame that it occurs. I think a lot of those kids do have parents who care but they are so stressed and work long hours and some do not. I think the real way to address it is to slowly work towards communities that are more mixed and allowing better housing to be built in bad neighborhoods. I think our patterns of growth were not only not sustainable but they do not build strong communities.

Edited May 7, 2016 by MistyMountain

[DawnM]

There are plenty of impoverished families who are not dysfunctional, abusive or dealing with addictions. I added that post to highlight that poverty=/=abuse and that abuse=/=poor academic performance. I also think it did come into play in their schooling. Once they hit college both my husband and my BIL floundered. My husband bounced back. My BIL has a degree he doesn't use and he is not able to work. It's not less traumatic or impactful because they lived in a big house in the country and had money.

 

It's too easy for people to over generalize and I have bluntly seen a lot of that on this thread. It smacks of classism (heck even my first post probably smacks of classism so let it be known I am calling myself out) and it really needs to be evaluated before people draw any conclusions.

 

Statistically the thing that had the most impact of reducing the achievement gap is something we have turned our backs on and that's school integration. There was a series not too long ago on This American Life. People should check it out.

of course there are.  I don't think I mentioned drugs at all other than to respond to your thread, but my point was about poverty, not about drugs.  

 

You can't ignore poverty in this situation.  The opportunities are not as great.  What we need to be discussing is ways to improve, not arguing over whose drug parents were worse, or accusing people of being classist.

 

Generalizations are not necessarily bad.  Statistics show that those in poverty have fewer opportunities and have fewer going to college.  Naming it doesn't make it bad.  Hopefully it can raise awareness.

 

School integration has been shown to have its own huge issues.  however, I would be interested in reading some info on it.  Do you have some links?

[Murphy101]

And addiction is also often about self medicating.

 

It's not like there is plentiful mental health care in the ghetto. Or anywhere else.

 

It'd be helpful if health care were as affordable and accessible as substance abuse.

[ktgrok]

As a mom who during her child rearing years has has many hypermesis pregnancies. Whose mom died. Whose dh has had a couple health issues over the years. Who didn't have extended family for anything. Who had to get by with one family vehicle and a low paycheck, which meant if it was outside school hours probably couldn't happen...

 

Life is not a statis endeavor.

 

And yet not once as a home schooler have all of those things happening in the last 20 years managed to screw my kids out of a basic or better education. And that's with many months where I didn't manage to teach anything other than don't touch my IV pole and wipe the pop tart crumbs off before sitting next to me on the sofa to watch tv.

 

It shouldn't mean being cheated out of a basic education for any other family's children either.

 

I think the difference is that you had hope things would get better. you didn't think you and your kids would all die young. 

[ktgrok]

And addiction is also often about self medicating.

 

It's not like there is plentiful mental health care in the ghetto. Or anywhere else.

 

It'd be helpful if health care were as affordable and accessible as substance abuse.

 

SO true. How many of those kids in the low performing schools are suffering from PTSD? How many of their parents' are?

[kubiac]

Yes. Braided hair syndrome.

 

I've never heard this term before. What does it mean?

[Murphy101]

I've never heard this term before. What does it mean?

The theory that the kids who's parent make sure they look good enough are the kids who get better care and consideration and benefit of doubt.

 

Iow, the little girl whose mama always made sure she was extra clean and her clothes were ironed and her Mary jane's were shiny and above all - her hair was very nearly and tightly braided? That girl always seemed to be smarter and better behaved than the same age child that wasn't. It was almost never actually true though. Often the ragged kid was just as smart and behaved. They could even be smarter and better behaved but get poorer grades and get in trouble by their teachers more often for more minor infractions.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Murphy101

[Murphy101]

I think the difference is that you had hope things would get better. you didn't think you and your kids would all die young.

Idk. Maybe.

 

Interesting though. I went through a brief time where how close I am to the age my mom died of cancer really messed with me. And I didn't even like the woman. But suddenly it hit me.in less than 10 years, I will have out lived my mother and it absolutely did affect many of my decisions there for a while. Sometimes it still does. Especially as I look at my 3 siblings who are 11-13yr older and it's scary to think that's where I could be in such a short time. It does make me think, if by some twist I can't control or foresee, I only have 10 years left?

 

I'm still not hopeless. I could die tomorrow and that'd suck but I've had a decent life I'm glad for.

 

But heck yeah. Screw retirement and only seeing my dh on the weekend so we can maybe get ahead an itty bit financially. You bet I'd reprioritize that.

[Arcadia]

The research paper is here

https://cepa.stanford.edu/content/geography-racialethnic-test-score-gaps

 

The data download request link is here

https://cepa.stanford.edu/seda/overview

 

The racial breakdown was pretty similar to the economic one. In the comments, many people were annoyed that no data was included about districts that were highly Asian.

Miller Middle School just won the National Science Bowl, three boys and two girls. The school district is 71% Asian, 16% White for 3rd-8th grade accord to state testing demographics. According to the NYTimes it is 3.1 grade levels ahead.

 

Their neighboring districts

Palo Alto Unified 31% Asian, 36% White, 2.5 grade levels ahead

Saratoga elementary 56% Asian, 31% White, 3.1 grade levels ahead.

Los Altos Elementary, 29% Asian 49% White, 3.2 grade levels ahead

[LucyStoner]

Today we recieved word that my niece has been accepted into an 8th grade to high school transition program run by an elite private school for low income students who have faced hardship. I'm pretty enthused as the results are solid (it's a long standing program) and because it means she will have FT summer enrichment and academic review classes this summer with continued support throughout high school including college application support. This is a privately funded program. But who was helping her with her application? Not her dad at all. Mom a little. And mainly my family, especially my older son. There's a lot of kids who would benefit but likely never even hear about it. As a poor kid growing up I benefited greatly from the fact that my mom was a reader and kept up on programs and stuff for me.

 

Another thing in my niece's favor. My state offers free college tuition for low income students who sign up in 7th and 8th grade and then maintain decent grades and stay out of legal trouble. Four fully funded years of tuition with a stipend for books. That's worth north of $55K in today's dollars. At that point, Pell grants and a small work study job should cover room and board and the rest of the books. But you have to be signed up by the end of the 8th grade. We had to run down that paperwork for her. Parents who are either overwhelmed, or struggling with mental health or addictions, or who just don't care, or who might not be literate enough to read what they get in the mail aren't infrequently failing to get that 1 page form in during the required window.

[greenbeanmama]

For my money I'm betting it has a lot to do with the students home lives. All the school funding in the world still can't deal with the realities that poverty often bring like lack of parental involvement, instability etc.

 

 

That's a good question.  What are lower income Asians doing that others are not?

 

 

It is all about the family/parents.  Schools cannot fix parents that do not care and do not do anything at all to help their children.

 

I grew up in a poor, unstable home environment.  However, education was valued; and my mom was involved - she read to us nightly, she made sure our homework was done, she scrimped and saved so that we each played a musical instrument for several years.  Getting strait A's was expected, as was going to college.  All four of us have bachelor's degrees, and two have/almost have master's degrees.  None of us have served prison time, are addicted to drugs or alcohol, or have debt collectors harassing us.  We're all contributing members of society.  Considering how awful our growing up years were, all four of us siblings are doing well - especially when we hear about friends who weren't on free lunches and had much more stable homes; they're the ones busted from making meth; having four children, all with different fathers; or still living at home because they just don't know what they want to do with their lives and can't seem to support themselves.

 

Lower income families can't provide as many opportunities as wealthier families.  But that doesn't mean that education can't be valued.  When education is a priority, children can do very well, even with very little to work with.