When writing is torture

[Ginevra]

Oh, it must be the sense of humor of God to bestow upon the writer two boys who hate writing with the passion of a thousand suns. So, for the quick history, DS 15 hated every aspect of language arts. I gave him cursory handwriting practice and did little to teach him writing compossition, because he hated it so ferociously. His fine motor skills and handwriting were/are poor and it took for-freakin-ever to try to craft so much as one cohesive paragraph. He is in B&M school now and, while that situation has not greatly improved, at least it's not that much of my problem anymore.

 

Except now it looks like we'll have a re-run with DS 10. I religiously taught him handwriting and spelling and he does manage this much better than older DS. He even draws reasonably well and I conclude that he has better hand coordination. However, we are one week in to Hake Writing and Grammar 5 and he is JUST GOING TO DIE! I'm just trying to get him to write a few sentences but it takes a billion years. This program is rapidly moving toward learning to construct a 5-paragraph essay, but that feels totally unimaginable at present. He said today, "I wish there was a Writing Without Tears!"

 

I seriously have no idea what to do. Should I just work interminably on learning to write sentences and hope we can work up to one whole paragraph in a few months' time? Should I just take some Valium and spend whatever time it takes and endure whatever tears that come until this skill is mastered?

[abba12]

This may be irrelevant, but have you tried typing it? I hated handwriting and that overwrote any joy for creative writing. I also wasn't a great speller. These are important skills, but they are SEPERATE skills. When I learned to type, and use spellcheck on, stories and essays I suddenly became exceptionally good at it. I LOVE creative writing, I just hated the technical, spelling and hand-writing bits. 

[Critterfixer]

What does he hate the most? The physical act of writing, the mental composition portion, or is he just put of by having to fit within a set idea of what he should be writing? 

[mom2scouts]

I feel your pain. I have a 13 year old who is sure to die if he has to write a complete paragraph.  He does a tiny bit better if I let him type it, but it still takes forever for him to get a few thoughts written down.

[Guest]

What does he hate the most? The physical act of writing, the mental composition portion, or is he just put of by having to fit within a set idea of what he should be writing?

It is the physical act of writing. I am already letting him do many of the questions orally only, and I see that he understands the sentence construction. So, there might be exercises like combining two short sentences into one more interesting sentence and he immediately understands how to do that. It's the too-long process of then writing all those words into the newly-created sentence.

[Guest]

This may be irrelevant, but have you tried typing it? I hated handwriting and that overwrote any joy for creative writing. I also wasn't a great speller. These are important skills, but they are SEPERATE skills. When I learned to type, and use spellcheck on, stories and essays I suddenly became exceptionally good at it. I LOVE creative writing, I just hated the technical, spelling and hand-writing bits.

I did do that with older DS, and the fact that typing is much more relevant in school than handwriting is why he is able to pass his English classes at all. I regret it, though, because I feel like he never got practice or built up hand strength and that is not what I want to repeat with DS10.

[matrips]

Our writing without tears was called IEW. The student intensive ones where he teaches and gives the assignments, not me. He understands boys, and it comes through.

[Arcadia]

I regret it, though, because I feel like he never got practice or built up hand strength and that is not what I want to repeat with DS10.

DS10 has a weaker wrist like me. His wrist used to swell when writing "too much". Piano helps, playing cello helps, even playing rubik cube helps.

Thankfully he can write more now before aching as algebra and geometry requires more writing.

Now DS9 is the one complaining about hand hurting from cello and from algebra. He is slowly getting used to it.

[Critterfixer]

Does he fuss about writing in all subjects, or just composition?

[abba12]

I did do that with older DS, and the fact that typing is much more relevant in school than handwriting is why he is able to pass his English classes at all. I regret it, though, because I feel like he never got practice or built up hand strength and that is not what I want to repeat with DS10.

 

I wonder if you would be better off separating writing and composition. Have him continue to hand-write for other subjects for the practice, as another poster said there is a fair bit of writing in later algebra and geometry, as well as notenaking, workbooks, and a number of other outputs. But perhaps let him type for english composition, essays, and reports, or at least many of them, and focus on the content of those without the struggle.

 

Note, I write this as someone who had poor motor skills and could not write without pain, and as an adult can barely write at all. I wish I could write but I'm so grateful to have been moved to computer for schoolwork, as I truly love composition writing now, and I would never have developed that if it had always been tied up in handwriting. I am even, now as an adult, playing around with handwriting again for a journaling project. But as a teenager, I would have simply failed many subjects had I not been allowed to type. 

[PeterPan]

I did do that with older DS, and the fact that typing is much more relevant in school than handwriting is why he is able to pass his English classes at all. I regret it, though, because I feel like he never got practice or built up hand strength and that is not what I want to repeat with DS10.

So if you do the physical act of the writing for him or let him use dictation software, is he fine?  Then you have a working memory or OT problem.  In fact, when I read your description, my first thought was working memory, just the ability to hold it in their heads while they get things out.  Both my kids are low tone (with working memory issues too), so we've dealt with the hand pain thing, etc.  It's not too late to go back and work on that with a 10 yo.  My dd did OT for it at age 11 and it actually did help.  Within 1-3 months she had dramatic improvement.  She still types everything, but she CAN get it out.  Also the OT found why (with her body) she was having the pain.  

 

I definitely wouldn't let them stop enjoying composition just because the physical part is crunchy.  Everything and their brother now has dictation.  The new Windows has Cortana, yes?  On mac products just hit the microphone.  You can do dictation on a kindle.  I'm saying there's incredibly good dictation software out there now.  Make sure they can type.  I paid my dd, because at one point her handwriting was horrible *and* the typing wasn't going well.

 

For working memory with a 10 yo, I'd play Ticket to Ride or other games that use a lot of working memory.  There are therapy games and fancy ways, but really just anything that requires you to hold things in your head.  Remember the Simon game we used to play with lights and sounds?  You can get it as an app now.  Pick something like that and do it daily.  Do a mixture of things over a variety of modalities.  Make sure he does it with distractions (like the radio on), so it's a strong skill.  You can do digit spans using the Cusamano book if you want.  

 

You can also pursue the free metronome exercises Heathermomster has posted.  I did those, adding in digit spans, with my dd several years ago, and that was when her writing BLOSSOMED.  The pricepoint is right (free), and it works because you're improving motor planning, EF, working memory, all sorts of things at once.  And it takes 20 minutes a day of effort, not a big deal.

 

For actual pain, I would get an OT eval and find out what's going on.  

[FO4UR]

Dragon Naturally Speaking.  Print it out.  Copy it by hand.

 

I've got one that can't spell to save his life.  We are just sort of stagnating in the copywork/narration/dictation phase for a while longer.  I'm not doing a formal writing program with him, but he's doing lots of narrations every week.  We are utilizing technology to help ease the flow of the day.  He is writing more than ever, but I'm still not expecting him to put together thoughts AND put the pen to paper in the same 15min chunk of time.  Get the thoughts into Dragon.  Print it out and put those words into your own handwriting.

 

He could type and then copy as well.  Really, until he can write a few sentences without weeping and gnashing of teeth, doing a full writing program is nothing but torture for you both.  Don't give up, but back up.

 

 

This thread is EPIC.  

 

 

[Julie Smith]

Our writing without tears was called IEW. The student intensive ones where he teaches and gives the assignments, not me. He understands boys, and it comes through.

This is working out well with my eldest.

[laundrycrisis]

Scribe for him. Have him learn to type. Create scaffolds for his writing assignments. They can be hand drawn planners that get filled in with notes that are later turned into sentences and paragraphs, or they can be outline headings in all caps that are put directly into a word processing document, which is then filled in and eventually edited into a paragraph paper. Teach him to create his own scaffolds and then start filling them in. In the beginning, ours couldn't even come up with sentences, so I was scaffolding sentences, and he only had to add the words needed to complete the sentences. You start with what he can do and build from there.

[HomeAgain]

Our writing without tears was called IEW. The student intensive ones where he teaches and gives the assignments, not me. He understands boys, and it comes through.

 

This was at the top of my oldest's list of awesome curricula.  And we never even used it. :laugh:   He did two years with it at a co-op.  Below that was WWS and Harvey's Grammar, both rigorous but clear and concise lessons.

 

FWIW, I look at Hake and it makes me want to cry.  I'm a grown-up.  I like writing.  It doesn't feel right to look at that series and feel such a strong reaction, but it turns writing into drudgery for even myself. 

[Susan Wise Bauer]

1) Typing! Typing!

 

2) Kilgallon sentence composition for middle school, followed by CAP Fables.

 

3) Try Writing With Skill in seventh grade.

[Guest]

Dragon Naturally Speaking. Print it out. Copy it by hand.

 

I've got one that can't spell to save his life. We are just sort of stagnating in the copywork/narration/dictation phase for a while longer. I'm not doing a formal writing program with him, but he's doing lots of narrations every week. We are utilizing technology to help ease the flow of the day. He is writing more than ever, but I'm still not expecting him to put together thoughts AND put the pen to paper in the same 15min chunk of time. Get the thoughts into Dragon. Print it out and put those words into your own handwriting.

 

He could type and then copy as well. Really, until he can write a few sentences without weeping and gnashing of teeth, doing a full writing program is nothing but torture for you both. Don't give up, but back up.

 

 

This thread is EPIC.

Thanks for this. Dragon is one of the things I tried with older Ds, which simply failed. I think he didn't "train" the program properly or something, but he became constantly annoyed the way it would stall and then type a very poor approximation of what he said. It soured me on using Dragon. But, we'll see if we can do something like that; maybe even using voice text or Siri.

 

I will look at the linked thread when I have some tiime later.

[Guest]

This was at the top of my oldest's list of awesome curricula. And we never even used it. :laugh: He did two years with it at a co-op. Below that was WWS and Harvey's Grammar, both rigorous but clear and concise lessons.

 

FWIW, I look at Hake and it makes me want to cry. I'm a grown-up. I like writing. It doesn't feel right to look at that series and feel such a strong reaction, but it turns writing into drudgery for even myself.

I love how straight-forward the Grammar section is. It makes sense to DS immediately. I also like that we're weaving in bits of vocabulary in that book. It's easy enough to get around some portions of the writing; i.e., it says "write the simple subject..." But I just have him underline.

[Guest]

1) Typing! Typing!

 

2) Kilgallon sentence composition for middle school, followed by CAP Fables.

 

3) Try Writing With Skill in seventh grade.

I'll give it a look...I have never heard of Kilgallon, so that may say something about how long it's been since I comprehensively reviewed curriculum.

[The Princess and the Jedi]

It is the physical act of writing. I am already letting him do many of the questions orally only, and I see that he understands the sentence construction. So, there might be exercises like combining two short sentences into one more interesting sentence and he immediately understands how to do that. It's the too-long process of then writing all those words into the newly-created sentence.

 

My son has the same issues. Learn as much as you can about dysgraphia and its multiple causes. My son's dysgraphia was the result of poor spatial skills, and weak hand and core muscles. Sounds like your son's is from weak muscle strength. We are in a much better place this year than last year. Writing is still a challenge, but it is no longer torture. Here are a few things we did:

• Eliminated all written reading comprehension questions across the board and had my son answer them out loud. 
• We took a break from writing and handwriting for six weeks to build up muscle strength and then started fresh with a new program. A lot of bad feelings were tied up with the old program that had nothing to do with the program itself. During that six weeks, we worked on building a stronger foundation in reading and grammar that would carry over into writing when we picked it up again.
• We went to the nearest playground every day to work on the monkey bars, which builds hand strength quickly.
• Added bear walks and crab walks to the lesson plans for PE for core strength and hand strength.
• We used multicolored highlighters for grammar.
• I keep an egg of Silly Putty with his school supplies to use while thinking between writing exercises to work out the kinks in his fingers and build hand strength.
• We used Spelling Power for spelling which uses different ways to practice spelling that are not filling in a workbook.
• When we added in writing again, we used Writing and Rhetoric as our writing program because it incorporates reading, narration, and public speaking as methods to improve writing skills in addition to structured writing practice. Writing and Rhetoric is a little lighter on the actual writing per week compared to other writing programs I looked at, but it is still a very effective program.
• I added drawing lessons to work on fine motor skills.
• I also encouraged my son to add little drawing in his journal (Think Diary of a Wimpy Kid) and inserting diagrams into some of the paragraphs he would write for science and history. My intention was to allow him to incorporate drawing into his writing and save himself writing a sentence here and there while still providing the same information, but he immediately ended up writing more than he did before I suggested he add drawing. In addition, his sentences were longer, included more details, and written in a more advanced style! Before I told him to include drawings in his journal, he wrote exactly five sentences (because I told him that was the minimum) and I was lucky if the whole entry was over 35 words. He was intentionally writing his sentences with as few words as possible. Now he writes between five and ten sentences, not including speech bubbles, and he is very proud of what he's writing. All I did was let him add drawings. Go figure.
• We work on typing, too. It will still be awhile before he can start composing on the computer.

Good luck working with your son. It's a long process. My son's handwriting is still bad, but he's writing again, which is a victory for us.

[Carol in Cal.]

I second or third or whatever separating the skills, for now.

 

Let him dictate compositions to you, or write them down in a scratchy way that will not be corrected.

 

Have him do copywork as a separate subject, and be a bear about him doing it perfectly.

 

Use Editor in Chief to teach editing.

 

Sooner or later this should all converge.  Really.

[Mom22ns]

I know you said that you regret letting your oldest type, but let him type or scribing for him are the answers. You have already been given all the best suggestions, but I want to give you an example of how that can play out.

 

Ds hated writing as a child. the physical act was torture. He was slow to learn to write. He was slow at writing. His writing was barely legible at best. He hated everything about writing. He began using a keyboard in public school at 7 for writing and spelling. When we started homeschooling we very thoroughly separated the act of writing from composition. I kept him doing copy work well into Jr. High for writing practice. For composition, we worked verbally or he typed. Today he is a creative writing major in college. He found he loved the creativity of writing, even though he hates the physical act. Give your ds the opportunity to love to write even though he hates writing. You must see that he will never love writing if it is physically tortuous and it is worth giving him the opportunity to explore expressing himself separately to see if he can find love or at least appreciation of the art without the associated torture.

[laundrycrisis]

I will add - if this problem is down to the level of barely being able to get a sentence out, or not at all, I would not expect this child to be able to use regular writing programs at the level typical for his age.  I would use materials written for learning differences, or written for a lower grade level. 

 

What worked for our son:

• Remedia has some workbooks for sentence writing that are very basic - they just add the last word or two, and work up to writing simple sentences on their own. They also have paragraph writing workbooks you can progress into.  
• I used WWE, but I used it way past the typical age for it - WWE1 for a 9 or 10 yo.  But, I had them do a week at a sitting instead of a day at a sitting.  
• Royal Fireworks Press has a series of Aesop's fables workbooks - the only part of these workbooks I used is that for each story, they read the story, look at a picture, and write one sentence about the picture.  It sounds overly simple, but it was really helpful.  
• Verticy yellow grammar and composition.  
• Typing.
• Scaffolding every single paragraph, both verbally and on paper, and using bullet lists.  Like this: Tell me three things you like about dogs, or whatever.  Those become three bullet points.  Add a thought to the top of the list that "opens the door".  The bullet list "walks through the rooms".  Then add a thought that "closes the door".  I don't say sentence - I say thought, and I jot down a casual note.   Then those bullet points each get transformed into a nice but simple sentence.  Finally, the top and bottom thought get changed into sentences.  Now, there are five sentences, in order.  This is all still on separate lines on the screen, because each sentence was a separate little project.  After every sentence is nice, we remove the white space to hook it all together into a paragraph.  

 

 

[freesia]

Our writing without tears was called IEW. The student intensive ones where he teaches and gives the assignments, not me. He understands boys, and it comes through.

Yes to this and typing.

 

I know that sometimes natural writer Moms dislike this curriculum, but it works miracles for my reluctant boys with fine motor problems. It totally scaffolds in a positive ways and makes writing manageable and helps them have success. Oldest now writes really well and he was just like your ds at 10. My 10 yo is more successful than my oldest at 10 bc he's done IEW since he was 7 (and he has hadfar bigger finemotor/dysgraphic/confidence issues in general--but has been very successful with Iew).

[Miss Tick]

1) Typing! Typing!

 

2) Kilgallon sentence composition for middle school, followed by CAP Fables.

 

3) Try Writing With Skill in seventh grade.

I agree with Quill, though. My ds (who sounds just like hers) knows the basics of typing and we use it occasionally, but I'm afraid it will all become typing and he will have to sign his passport with an "X".

 

We have Kilgallon, I like it, we use it about once a month, but it is written for the students to write everything. We do most of it orally, and it has helped everyone's sentence structure.

 

I'm planning to slowly work in WWS starting at the end of 5th (current year) I worry that if we don't start very slowly we won't have time to finish, moving at a snail-y pace. I read all the WWS threads and will be on the look out for signs that it needs to get put on the backburner.

 

If he comes across a fill-in-the-blanks worksheet he will label the choices to reduce overall writing. Yesterday in science he re-wrote his sentence do that it used "velocity" instead of "speed and direction". Fewer letters.

 

Mine is good with the basic composition skills, dictation, summary, narration, copywork. It is something about the physical act that stymies him. I've watched him do copywork and the lack of focus seems to slow him down as much as the writing itself. I've seen slow improvement, however I rue the day I thought italic font would be a good place to start with handwriting!

[Miss Tick]

Also, incorporating more freewriting that won't be edited by me in any way has helped with increasing volume of output.

[Guest]

I agree with Quill, though. My ds (who sounds just like hers) knows the basics of typing and we use it occasionally, but I'm afraid it will all become typing and he will have to sign his passport with an "X".

 

We have Kilgallon, I like it, we use it about once a month, but it is written for the students to write everything. We do most of it orally, and it has helped everyone's sentence structure.

 

I'm planning to slowly work in WWS starting at the end of 5th (current year) I worry that if we don't start very slowly we won't have time to finish, moving at a snail-y pace. I read all the WWS threads and will be on the look out for signs that it needs to get put on the backburner.

 

If he comes across a fill-in-the-blanks worksheet he will label the choices to reduce overall writing. Yesterday in science he re-wrote his sentence do that it used "velocity" instead of "speed and direction". Fewer letters.

 

Mine is good with the basic composition skills, dictation, summary, narration, copywork. It is something about the physical act that stymies him. I've watched him do copywork and the lack of focus seems to slow him down as much as the writing itself. I've seen slow improvement, however I rue the day I thought italic font would be a good place to start with handwriting!

Yup, exactly. Mine does this, too. He drops words he finds unnecessary because he wants to make it as little writing as he can.

[Guest]

Yes to this and typing.

 

I know that sometimes natural writer Moms dislike this curriculum, but it works miracles for my reluctant boys with fine motor problems. It totally scaffolds in a positive ways and makes writing manageable and helps them have success. Oldest now writes really well and he was just like your ds at 10. My 10 yo is more successful than my oldest at 10 bc he's done IEW since he was 7 (and he has hadfar bigger finemotor/dysgraphic/confidence issues in general--but has been very successful with Iew).

Weeeeellll, I have to confess that I *had* part of IEW a few years back, hoping it would help my first reluctant writer. To see it recommended over and over makes me think I am missing something, or that I was too quick to dump that curriculum. But I watched that first video. Pudwah is quite engaging and I think everything he said is sound, but I'm left thinking, "This is just as bad as anything else I have tried with DS. It is *still* going to take him a billion years to finish one assignment." It had the steps - I forget exactly - something like read, highlight Key Words, take the Key Words and use them to re-create the piece over and write that. It was only more and more torture! I don't know if I just started with the wrong bits, or what exactly, but that curriculum is too expensive to just play around with.

[FO4UR]

1) Typing! Typing!

 

2) Kilgallon sentence composition for middle school, followed by CAP Fables.

 

3) Try Writing With Skill in seventh grade.

 

Kilgallon is in my "Save for Later" cart on amazon.  WWS is printed out and I was planning on starting it in January.  

 

I was not impressed with MP Fables; too detailed, too dry.  We've already done (over done) narrations with Aesop's Fables, but CM style.

 

Would there be any reason not to start some Kilgallon in October, and WWS whenever I felt he could handle the addition to his workload?  What would be missed by not doing CAP Fables?

 

 

 

 

Thanks for this. Dragon is one of the things I tried with older Ds, which simply failed. I think he didn't "train" the program properly or something, but he became constantly annoyed the way it would stall and then type a very poor approximation of what he said. It soured me on using Dragon. But, we'll see if we can do something like that; maybe even using voice text or Siri.

 

I will look at the linked thread when I have some tiime later.

 

 

The thread linked is worth it.  Nan in Mass talks through writing with her boys who struggled. :thumbup1:

 

 

 

Yup, exactly. Mine does this, too. He drops words he finds unnecessary because he wants to make it as little writing as he can.

 

 

Sounds familiar.  If we are doing an oral narration, he'll ask if he has to copy it.  If not, he'll give long, elaborate and imaginative narrations.  If so, "The man died." is about as good as it gets unless tug and pull.

 

This child will work multi-step Singapore CWP problems in.his.head! to avoid having to jot down a few equations.  I don't let him get away with it, but he tries.

 

Thanks for this thread.  I will feel a lot less momma-guilt tomorrow when I make him write write write. 

[BlsdMama]

1) Typing! Typing!

 

2) Kilgallon sentence composition for middle school, followed by CAP Fables.

 

3) Try Writing With Skill in seventh grade.

 

YES!

 

 

I admit I didn't do #2.

 

However, I have a certain young man who is bright and capable and I like him very much.  We took him in for testing for dyslexia and the gal doing the testing said during the consult, "And, of course, he is severely dysgraphic."  

 

Hmmmm?

 

Then she proceeded to show me how hard he wrote in order to maintain control over his hand to form letters (at 14, btw.)  I knew writing was incredibly hard for him, but when he put forth enough effort he could do it well enough, though he did say his hand hurt.  (Mama hangs head.)

 

Yes, typing.  

Yes, Writing with Skill.  Oh my goodness -  it was the first writing program he TRULY enjoyed.  Plus, because it's written AT the student, he didn't feel like he was being "remediated."  He was older than the recommended level but enjoyed the excerpts.  He tested high on his COMPASS exam this year for community college and is taking Comp I (age 16) and while I can tell you that I doubt he'll ever LOVE writing, if this kid can be fairly successful in functional writing then I should think almost any child can!  

[Susan Wise Bauer]

 

Would there be any reason not to start some Kilgallon in October, and WWS whenever I felt he could handle the addition to his workload?  What would be missed by not doing CAP Fables?

 

 

 

 

You won't miss anything, but it sounded to me like maybe he could use a little extra maturity before starting WWS, so I wanted to suggest something that would help him practice his narration skills (that's what CAP Fables would do) while he works on his typing and grows up just a little bit more. You can start WWS, but if he struggles PLEASE stop and wait another year and do something that will give him plenty of practice simply putting sentences down on paper. WWS is all about organization, and that "sentences on paper" skill has to be pretty firm before you start it.

 

SWB

[lailasmum]

This is useful. My eldest is similar, struggles with the physical act of writing (though she'll spend hours drawing) and I think she's a bit immature in a lot of ways so having some other options to explore is helpful. 

[Jyhwkmama]

Thank you for this thread! We are in the same boat and every response is helpful.

[Critterfixer]

 

I seriously have no idea what to do. Should I just work interminably on learning to write sentences and hope we can work up to one whole paragraph in a few months' time? Should I just take some Valium and spend whatever time it takes and endure whatever tears that come until this skill is mastered? 

 

 

I've probably written and rewritten this post five times today. 

Quill, do you think it is as simple as having him type his work? That seems to be a simple fix, but honestly, typing isn't always great for a young writer. Or an older writer, for that matter. I find that when I type, my inner editor is activated. That's dreadful for the creativity. It's so bad, that if I have to compose while typing, I literally have to cover the screen so that I can't see what I've typed. If I see, I experience an urge to erase large portions and to revise my sentences as I type. I do not have that problem when I write on paper. There, my stream of consciousness rolls on unhindered. 

I don't know....I just think that if it were as simple as "let him type" that Quill would have already tried that with one or both of her boys. And it hasn't worked with the first boy. I think Quill said that he gets to type, but he's not a better writer for that. 

I think that typing would probably help with the physical aspect, but I'm not sure that it's just that. 

 

[laundrycrisis]

I have something else to say.  For someone who feels overwhelmed by having to get words out of their mind and into written form, keep it simple.  When they have to read or listen to a bunch of complicated-sounding analytical stuff about how to write, it makes it seem even more complicated.  

 

I give our sons very simple instructions.  Step 1 - do this, then stop.  Step 2 - do this, then stop. etc.  My biggest frustration with any and all writing curriculum is too many words.   This isn't a fit for a kid who is already overwhelmed by written words.   I strip it all down to the most basic instructions.  Writing is like math at our house - simple formulas to plug content into.  I can draw diagrams of what goes where.  I can have them "tell me what goes in this box".   Later, that grows into a sentence.  It starts from a very simple instruction. 

 

I understand this is not an approach that on its own is going to lead to great writing.  But for a kid who can't even begin, it's a start.  And knowing that writing can be simple - stripped down to the studs and built from there - made it less scary.  

 

 

[Guest]

I have something else to say. For someone who feels overwhelmed by having to get words out of their mind and into written form, keep it simple. When they have to read or listen to a bunch of complicated-sounding analytical stuff about how to write, it makes it seem even more complicated.

 

I give our sons very simple instructions. Step 1 - do this, then stop. Step 2 - do this, then stop. etc. My biggest frustration with any and all writing curriculum is too many words. This isn't a fit for a kid who is already overwhelmed by written words. I strip it all down to the most basic instructions. Writing is like math at our house - simple formulas to plug content into. I can draw diagrams of what goes where. I can have them "tell me what goes in this box". Later, that grows into a sentence. It starts from a very simple instruction.

 

I understand this is not an approach that on its own is going to lead to great writing. But for a kid who can't even begin, it's a start. And knowing that writing can be simple - stripped down to the studs and built from there - made it less scary.

Yes. My older son did a co-op class (I "forced" him to) on writing; he was probably seventh or eighth grade? This homeschooling mom did a *great* job teaching him, in a simple way, how to put together a five-paragraph essay. No, he didn't finish the class having morphed into Hemmingway, but he gained a decent understanding of how to introduce, support and then conclude a basic idea. I am not above paying this woman to do something similar with DS10.

[Guest]

I have something else to say. For someone who feels overwhelmed by having to get words out of their mind and into written form, keep it simple. When they have to read or listen to a bunch of complicated-sounding analytical stuff about how to write, it makes it seem even more complicated.

 

I give our sons very simple instructions. Step 1 - do this, then stop. Step 2 - do this, then stop. etc. My biggest frustration with any and all writing curriculum is too many words. This isn't a fit for a kid who is already overwhelmed by written words. I strip it all down to the most basic instructions. Writing is like math at our house - simple formulas to plug content into. I can draw diagrams of what goes where. I can have them "tell me what goes in this box". Later, that grows into a sentence. It starts from a very simple instruction.

 

I understand this is not an approach that on its own is going to lead to great writing. But for a kid who can't even begin, it's a start. And knowing that writing can be simple - stripped down to the studs and built from there - made it less scary.

If it were compositional typing, I don't think that would help DS 10, and it didn't help DS15. Like you said, pecking out the words on a computer would be as "bad" as having to form them with handwriting. Now, I do think *if* the Dragon speaking program would work correctly, it could help him, because he has great, creative ideas; it is only the slow process of writing that makes it torture. BUT, then I don't want to "let him escape" the physical exercise of writing because he will not always have that crutch and I am not planning to continue hsing him indefinitely.

 

When older DS went to B&M school, I half-wanted to pin a note to his shirt saying, "Dear teachers, I'm sorry. I tried. You give it a go now."

 

At least he's an ace at math.

[laundrycrisis]

What's funny about the physical act of writing is that at least for our son, more time spent writing does not develop what is needed to make it easier.  What was needed was core strength.  1.5 years of OT, planks, archery and tennis developed that.   Now he can at least do his math with a pencil when needed, although he prefers doing it on the computer.  But he won't write more than two sentences by hand.  If he was going to PS, I would be getting a 504 allowing him to type essay answers and all writing assignments.  Both his dysgraphia and disorder of written expression are tested and documented.  But he is to the point where he can complete a composition on the computer, if he begins with the scaffold of a planner.  

 

His typing is good.  We used Dancemat, then Type to Learn, then Click'n Spell and Wordy Qwerty.  Also online games with chat.  Typing works well for him now.  We experimented with speech to text software but never liked it.  If he has a need to do that, I'm faster and more accurate.  

[lewelma]

My younger boy has really struggled.  Although not tested, I'm sure he has some sort of dysgraphia. From childhood he refused to write or draw. My ds can compose beautifully, he just can't get it down for two reasons.  He can't spell anything and he can't write/type very fast.  So what I have decided to do is to focus on *automating* his spelling.  He knows the rules, but to sound out every. single. word. is VERY time consuming and he forgets what he wants to say.  So we are using Sequential Spelling (2 lists per day) and dictation for 15 a day. The goal of the dictation is to automate the spelling and to increase speed, at this point I am not having him work on holding ideas in his head or on punctuation.  So I just dictate a phrase (like 5 words) and he mumbles the spelling outloud as he goes, and I correct letter by letter where required.  Also if it is a word I know he cannot spell, I spell it when he gets to it (he is talking out loud as he writes the word, so I just listen and correct/supply).  We count how many words he can write in a certain period of time and keep a graph so he can track his progress.  In 6 months we have gone from 6 words a minute for 2 minutes at a time, to 9 words a minute over a 15 minute period.  So definitely progress.  He knows his goal is about 30 words a minute sustained for 15 minutes.  If he can do this, he can take the exams in high school. 

 

The next thing I am doing is separating out the composition from the actual production of text.  So he composes orally and records it with a dictaphone app.  He then plays it back and types it in. This is a 5 paragraph essay that he works on all week and we edit it on Friday to make a final product.  We are also orally composing an essay a day, focusing on invention and structure (style is covered by the week-long typed essay).  

 

This approach is really helping and I can see how far we have come this year.  There is still years of work to get done before 10th grade exams, but we have years so I feel like we can make it.  Slow and steady and all that.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Critterfixer]

 

The next thing I am doing is separating out the composition from the actual production of text.  So he composes orally and records it with a dictaphone app.  He then plays it back and types it in. This is a 5 paragraph essay that he works on all week and we edit it on Friday to make a final product.  We are also orally composing an essay a day, focusing on invention and structure (style is covered by the week-long typed essay).  

 

 

I really like the idea of teaching the composition of the essay as an oral exercise. That could be huge for a child who thinks he can't "write." So much of composition is the organization of thoughts and ideas into writing format. Getting it down then would simply be dictation and/or copywork. I believe that there is a passage in the WWE core book about that idea of keeping the composition and the finished product (actual writing) separate skills to start with.  Both of my boys automatically do this for their narrative writing. One of them spends a good half-hour in the mornings walking up and down the driveway and "talking out" his dialogue. The other does it mentally while he draws, I think. Something about drawing maps seems to focus him on the event sequences in his stories. 

 

They don't have trouble getting down words, though. When they were younger, I did have to work with one on his fine motor skills. I had him use a pen for tracing copywork for a while, and he actually got much better at control when we would spend time painting. He works on his own now--he loves to draw intricate maps and circuit boards. The other had a bad pencil grip and I worked on that, and spent time with both boys on how to sit properly at a table for writing. We also worked on letting the motion come from the shoulder and upper arm instead of the wrist. I found that to be helpful. But that was all muscle stuff, so I could play the "getting stronger" card when they were young. 

 

Quill, I'm wondering, if you made ALL of his composition work oral for a while, and then did the penmanship/dictation/copywork as a short daily practice, would that make writing without tears for him? The thing he would have to work on is composing as an oral exercise. Could he get to the five paragraph essay if it were all oral work while his strengthening work happened outside of "writing"?

[FO4UR]

You won't miss anything, but it sounded to me like maybe he could use a little extra maturity before starting WWS, so I wanted to suggest something that would help him practice his narration skills (that's what CAP Fables would do) while he works on his typing and grows up just a little bit more. You can start WWS, but if he struggles PLEASE stop and wait another year and do something that will give him plenty of practice simply putting sentences down on paper. WWS is all about organization, and that "sentences on paper" skill has to be pretty firm before you start it.

 

SWB

 

 

Got it.  I will wait as long as he needs to start WWS.  We do enough narrations otherwise, so we will skip the Fables.

[Arcadia]

For creative writing, DS10 created his own Mad Libs for others to enjoy since he was around 8. Now he is into writing those short create/choose your own adventure books.

 

Assigned writing was hard because he is a perfectionist and was afraid to put pen to paper until he feels it is good enough. DS9 on the other hand just writes whatever he thinks and needs to improve his editing and proofreading skills.

 

When DS10 needed to submit his written assignments online, I sometimes typed for him because the physical act of writing a draft and a final tired him out. He writes about 500 words length.

[Guest]

I really like the idea of teaching the composition of the essay as an oral exercise. That could be huge for a child who thinks he can't "write." So much of composition is the organization of thoughts and ideas into writing format. Getting it down then would simply be dictation and/or copywork. I believe that there is a passage in the WWE core book about that idea of keeping the composition and the finished product (actual writing) separate skills to start with. Both of my boys automatically do this for their narrative writing. One of them spends a good half-hour in the mornings walking up and down the driveway and "talking out" his dialogue. The other does it mentally while he draws, I think. Something about drawing maps seems to focus him on the event sequences in his stories.

 

They don't have trouble getting down words, though. When they were younger, I did have to work with one on his fine motor skills. I had him use a pen for tracing copywork for a while, and he actually got much better at control when we would spend time painting. He works on his own now--he loves to draw intricate maps and circuit boards. The other had a bad pencil grip and I worked on that, and spent time with both boys on how to sit properly at a table for writing. We also worked on letting the motion come from the shoulder and upper arm instead of the wrist. I found that to be helpful. But that was all muscle stuff, so I could play the "getting stronger" card when they were young.

 

Quill, I'm wondering, if you made ALL of his composition work oral for a while, and then did the penmanship/dictation/copywork as a short daily practice, would that make writing without tears for him? The thing he would have to work on is composing as an oral exercise. Could he get to the five paragraph essay if it were all oral work while his strengthening work happened outside of "writing"?

This is a good suggestion and yes, I think this would be a go for him.

[MooCow]

1) Typing! Typing!

 

2) Kilgallon sentence composition for middle school, followed by CAP Fables.

 

3) Try Writing With Skill in seventh grade.

Word. My son has been typing his papers for over a year now. We used #2 the tail end of last year, and are doing Cap fables now. He is flying through it- he loves rewriting the fables.

 

Hope I didn't just jinx it :)

[kolamum]

But there IS a Writing Without Tears. It's called Writing With Ease & Writing With Skill. Seriously. :P

[Guest]

But there IS a Writing Without Tears. It's called Writing With Ease & Writing With Skill. Seriously. :P

Teacher's Pet. ;)