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[DragonFaerie]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/09/07/muslim-flight-attendant-suspended/71852754/

 

"A Muslim flight attendant said the Atlanta-based airline ExpressJet suspended her for refusing to serve alcohol, a practice that is against her religious beliefs. Charee Stanley filed a discrimination complaint with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission last week, saying she wants to do her job without serving alcohol, as she was doing before her suspension, her lawyer said."

 

 

Apparently she was avoiding that part of her job, but now her coworkers have gotten tired of picking up her slack and doing that part of her job for her. So now she's suing on religious grounds.  And here we go....

[gardenmom5]

Honest question: Does Islam prohibit *serving* alcohol as well as the imbibing?

Yes. Taxi drivers at o'hare have already lost this case. They refused fares who were carrying alcohol in their luggage..

[abba12]

You know what, people need to stop thinking they are entitled to jobs their religious beliefs oppose parts of! 

 

What if someone signed on to be a model, but said she could only model clothing which covered her belly and down to her elbows and knees, then cried discrimination when the only offers she gets breach these rules

 

If you have religious beliefs about modesty you cant be a model

if you have religious beliefs about alcohol you can't be a waitress or flight attendant

if you have religious beliefs about marriage you can't be a clerk

if you have religious beliefs about seeing the opposite gender you can't be a doctor. 

If you have religious beliefs about headcoverings you can't work in security (or hairdressing....)

 

What you believe SHOULD effect what you can do. Don't stand by your beliefs by expecting the world to cater to you, stand by them by restricting your own life decisions by them! It's one thing to allow someone to wear a hijab into the office, that doesn't effect your job. But when your religious belief directly interferes with your job responsibilities, YOU are in the wrong job, the employer shouldn't have to alter the job to suit you, you just shouldn't be there to begin with! It's not discrimination, people who were born with one leg don't get to be in the army either, because they just aren't suited. People born deaf don't get to work in call-centers, because they just aren't suited. If you choose a belief, stand by it and let it effect your life appropriately, don't try to make it have as little effect on your life as possible. 

[73349]

I would say that selling alcohol is a far less central aspect of a flight attendant's job than issuing marriage licenses is to a county clerk's job, and drinking on board is not a civil right (whether or not you think it's a good idea), so I'm not sure that the two situations are quite parallel.

 

Even if the airline is not legally obligated to accommodate the worker, I think making an effort (such as assigning the person to flights too short to offer a beverage service) is the right thing to do here.

[chiguirre]

Even if the airline is not legally obligated to accommodate the worker, I think making an effort (such as assigning the person to flights too short to offer a beverage service) is the right thing to do here.

I haven't been on many flights where drinks were not served so I'm not sure that would be possible. Apparently, she was relying on the good will of her co-workers to do that part of the job for her. If they're not willing to do her that favor, she's just out of luck. I don't think it's fair to expect the airline to forego a high margin add-on to accommodate her. Personally, I would not be willing to pay even a couple bucks extra for my ticket to make up the revenue that's lost by allowing her to not sell alcohol.

[Amira]

I have mixed feelings about this one. From what the woman's attorney has said in the stories I've read, customers weren't complaining and her coworkers (except the one who complained) were okay with the system she'd worked out. The coworker who was concerned also mentioned the fact that she wore a hijab and owned a Qur'an, neither of which are good reasons for her to be fired. I can't see why that was mentioned at all. I'm not sure it's as simple as saying that her coworkers got tired of picking up the slack. If more of her coworkers indicate that they feel that way, then I think the accommodation doesn't work. We don't even know if the coworker who complained was picking up any slack at all.

 

In the end though, I don't think that working as a flight attendant is the right job for a Muslim who feels that serving alcohol is haram. It's an integral part of the job and accommodating that belief is likely to be a burden.

[73349]

I haven't been on many flights where drinks were not served so I'm not sure that would be possible. Apparently, she was relying on the good will of her co-workers to do that part of the job for her. If they're not willing to do her that favor, she's just out of luck. I don't think it's fair to expect the airline to forego a high margin add-on to accommodate her. Personally, I would not be willing to pay even a couple bucks extra for my ticket to make up the revenue that's lost by allowing her to not sell alcohol.

 

I'm usually on short flights (< 3 hours) departing early in the morning, so maybe that's why I don't see passengers buying a lot of alcohol. But even though the airline may make a lot of money total in alcohol sales, because many people fly during a year, are there really that many people drinking on any given flight? If 10% of passengers order a drink, and pay $4 on average, that would be only a forty-cent-per-ticket difference, and that only on the flights served by that person even if having him/her attend meant no one bought a drink at all (and most flights have two or more attendants).

 

But I don't think the airline needs to force other attendants to cover the (oh, three? five?) customers a flight who want to buy alcohol but are in that attendant's section, without anything in return--it would be fine to assign him/her to mostly flights on which alcohol service is unlikely to be wanted, or for that attendant to be given an extra row of people who want water or other non-alcoholic beverages in exchange.

 

Again, not saying it's legally required, just that it's so reasonable for the airline to accommodate the few people who want it, why not? It's not like this is an employee saying, You know, I've converted to a religion that requires me to be naked at all times, or to carry a hand grenade. The main job of a flight attendant is to keep the passengers safe, and alcohol is a small side issue.

[Orthodox6]

Yes. Taxi drivers at o'hare have already lost this case. They refused fares who were carrying alcohol in their luggage..

That is extreme. How would a cab driver know what was in a stranger's suitcase?? I don't put up with porn magazines, but if I were a flight attendant, I would not be morally at fault for such being present in a passenger's personal luggage.

[chiguirre]

I'm usually on short flights (< 3 hours) departing early in the morning, so maybe that's why I don't see passengers buying a lot of alcohol. But even though the airline may make a lot of money total in alcohol sales, because many people fly during a year, are there really that many people drinking on any given flight? If 10% of passengers order a drink, and pay $4 on average, that would be only a forty-cent-per-ticket difference, and that only on the flights served by that person even if having him/her attend meant no one bought a drink at all (and most flights have two or more attendants).

 

 

Clearly, I've been flying the party planes! No, seriously, this probably does depend on the route and the time of the flight. The midnight flight to Caracas probably sells a lot more alcohol than the 6 am to Des Moines. The last time I looked, alcohol was $6-8 per drink. It's the equivalent of movie theater popcorn on some routes, a real money maker with a huge margin.

[Orthodox6]

I can't help suspecting some degree of ill-feeling toward the flight attendant's religion.

 

Good grief! I wear a headcovering to-and-from church to save time when I arrive because I'll be dashing into the choir. I also carry books filled with weird-looking foreign language characters (prayer book and/or Holy Gospels in Church Slavonic). Guess I should protect my backside against hyper-nervous U.S. Citizens.

[DragonFaerie]

I would say that selling alcohol is a far less central aspect of a flight attendant's job than issuing marriage licenses is to a county clerk's job, and drinking on board is not a civil right (whether or not you think it's a good idea), so I'm not sure that the two situations are quite parallel.

 

Even if the airline is not legally obligated to accommodate the worker, I think making an effort (such as assigning the person to flights too short to offer a beverage service) is the right thing to do here.

 

That sounds like a logistical nightmare to me, especially when other employees starting coming up with their own demands of what they will and won't do.

[gardenmom5]

i read a bit about the case.  easyjet has apparently made a number of attempts to accommodate her - including a jobs in an area where she would not have to serve alcohol (e.g. ticket counter, phone service.)  she turned them all down, she only wants to be a flight attendant.

 

she also refuses to work short haul commuter flights .because some of them only have one FA - and passengers still have the option to purchase alcohol.

 

she doesn't care how she is inconveniencing her coworkers because they are having to pick up slack of things she refuses to do. 

[FaithManor]

You know what, people need to stop thinking they are entitled to jobs their religious beliefs oppose parts of!

 

What if someone signed on to be a model, but said she could only model clothing which covered her belly and down to her elbows and knees, then cried discrimination when the only offers she gets breach these rules

 

If you have religious beliefs about modesty you cant be a model

if you have religious beliefs about alcohol you can't be a waitress or flight attendant

if you have religious beliefs about marriage you can't be a clerk

if you have religious beliefs about seeing the opposite gender you can't be a doctor.

If you have religious beliefs about headcoverings you can't work in security (or hairdressing....)

 

What you believe SHOULD effect what you can do. Don't stand by your beliefs by expecting the world to cater to you, stand by them by restricting your own life decisions by them! It's one thing to allow someone to wear a hijab into the office, that doesn't effect your job. But when your religious belief directly interferes with your job responsibilities, YOU are in the wrong job, the employer shouldn't have to alter the job to suit you, you just shouldn't be there to begin with! It's not discrimination, people who were born with one leg don't get to be in the army either, because they just aren't suited. People born deaf don't get to work in call-centers, because they just aren't suited. If you choose a belief, stand by it and let it effect your life appropriately, don't try to make it have as little effect on your life as possible.

This should be on every billboard in America!

[gardenmom5]

Clearly, I've been flying the party planes! No, seriously, this probably does depend on the route and the time of the flight. The midnight flight to Caracas probably sells a lot more alcohol than the 6 am to Des Moines. The last time I looked, alcohol was $6-8 per drink. It's the equivalent of movie theater popcorn on some routes, a real money maker with a huge margin.

 

 

granted I don't drink (so I barely pay attention) - but that seems pretty average.  at least for the restaurants I frequent.   (I've seen mixed drinks on the menu which are more.  and that doesn't include the wines . . . . )

 

but I do recall the "celebration" dinner we attended with dh's coworkers and they all spent 50% more PER PERSON, on drinks than the food.

[DragonFaerie]

I can't help suspecting some degree of ill-feeling toward the flight attendant's religion.

 

 

 

I hope you don't mean from me.  I have no problem with anyone's choice of religion (or lack thereof).  I just don't think that religion should be a reason not to do one's job.  If one has a moral objection to a job (or part of a job), he or she needs to find a new job, one that he or she can do in good conscience, rather than demand that the job be changed to suit the individual.

[ErinE]

I can't help suspecting some degree of ill-feeling toward the flight attendant's religion.

 

Good grief! I wear a headcovering to-and-from church to save time when I arrive because I'll be dashing into the choir. I also carry books filled with weird-looking foreign language characters (prayer book and/or Holy Gospels in Church Slavonic). Guess I should protect my backside against hyper-nervous U.S. Citizens.

 

I've flown a number of late night short haul flights (nearly always delayed). There's only one flight attendant and yes, a lot of drinks are sold. Selling and serving alcohol is part of the job. The airline is forgoing revenue because the flight attendant turned down the reasonable accommodations offered. I would expect any employee who refused to serve alcohol would no longer be employed.

[Orthodox6]

I hope you don't mean from me. I have no problem with anyone's choice of religion (or lack thereof). I just don't think that religion should be a reason not to do one's job. If one has a moral objection to a job (or part of a job), he or she needs to find a new job, one that he or she can do in good conscience, rather than demand that the job be changed to suit the individual.

NOT YOU ! ! !

 

I was referring to the co-worker who -- allegedly -- complained about the woman wearing a hijab and carrying book(s) in a foreign language.

 

NOT YOU ! ! !

[Arcadia]

That sounds like a logistical nightmare to me, especially when other employees starting coming up with their own demands of what they will and won't do.

Like flight attendants who are vegetarian might refuse to serve non-vegetarian meals on long haul flights.

Long haul flights do serve free wine and beer. Hubby's cousin who is a flight stewardess says long haul flights allowances bump up her monthly pay substantially compared to short haul.

[Haiku]

If you won't do the job, don't expect to keep the job.

 

Good grief. I was offered a job at the Humane Society. Part of the job would be euthanizing animals. I religiously object to doing so, so I didn't even consider taking the job (which I didn't even apply for--it was just offered). Should I have instead taken the job and then refused to do it? Expected the Humane Society to pay me but foisted the work onto my co-workers?

 

The sense of entitlement boggles the mind.

[Garga]

You know what, people need to stop thinking they are entitled to jobs their religious beliefs oppose parts of!

 

What if someone signed on to be a model, but said she could only model clothing which covered her belly and down to her elbows and knees, then cried discrimination when the only offers she gets breach these rules

 

If you have religious beliefs about modesty you cant be a model

if you have religious beliefs about alcohol you can't be a waitress or flight attendant

if you have religious beliefs about marriage you can't be a clerk

if you have religious beliefs about seeing the opposite gender you can't be a doctor.

If you have religious beliefs about headcoverings you can't work in security (or hairdressing....)

 

What you believe SHOULD effect what you can do. Don't stand by your beliefs by expecting the world to cater to you, stand by them by restricting your own life decisions by them! It's one thing to allow someone to wear a hijab into the office, that doesn't effect your job. But when your religious belief directly interferes with your job responsibilities, YOU are in the wrong job, the employer shouldn't have to alter the job to suit you, you just shouldn't be there to begin with! It's not discrimination, people who were born with one leg don't get to be in the army either, because they just aren't suited. People born deaf don't get to work in call-centers, because they just aren't suited. If you choose a belief, stand by it and let it effect your life appropriately, don't try to make it have as little effect on your life as possible.

Amen.

[Orthodox6]

When I was working on a masters degree in Russian, I thought I might earn extra income by joining the Army Reserves as a translator. (I saw ads.) I figured it would be a civilian-hire job. During the interview, which was going quite well, I learned that it would be a regular enlistment requiring me to go through boot camp and the whole routine of being trained to use weapons. I understood, but weapons was a deal-breaker for me, so I disengaged from the process. Can you imagine someone on the job refusing to bear arms when it was a clear requirement?!

[abba12]

I just came back to read the actual article

 

Lena Masri, an attorney with the Michigan chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said no one "should have to choose between their career and religion."

Um, actually, YES, yes you SHOULD! I say this as someone who's beliefs prevent me from doing many jobs as well! If your religion prevents you from doing a job, then you should have to choose, and shouldn't be doing it. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

"I don't think that I should have to choose between practicing my religion properly or earning a living," Stanley told CBS News. "I shouldn't have to choose between one or the other because they're both important."

 

You don't, you just have to choose to earn a living elsewhere. This is not the only job in the world, and an above poster mentioned she was offered other jobs within the airline? This isn't about earning a living, this is about doing what you WANT to do while still holding certain beliefs you want to hold which don't mesh with it.  Sometimes, when you believe in something, it means not being able to do everything you want to because of it. 

 

This article makes me really annoyed now.

[DragonFaerie]

NOT YOU ! ! !

 

I was referring to the co-worker who -- allegedly -- complained about the woman wearing a hijab and carrying book(s) in a foreign language.

 

NOT YOU ! ! !

 

Oh, good. :-)

[Guest]

The problem with this, religiously, is that she can not have it all ways at once. Either she has obtained an opinion from a scholar of the Sharia that being around alcohol is NOT makhrohat (discouraged but not forbidden). Or she has not and there she should proceed as if it is makhrohat. OR, she has concluded it is a matter fr her own conscious (ijtihaad) and therefore she should be able to everything except actually consume the alcohol.

 

In other words, she should either not be at the job at ALL because they serve alcohol and she knows it, or she should be OK serving the alcohol.

 

Work-arounds of the conscience are not really a thing in the Sharia. You have some choice, as you can see, but it's between two options that are far apart. They choice doesn't lie in the grey area between them.

 

So, for that reason you will find pious Muslims operating liquor stores with a clear conscience. And you will find people who will not visit even a personal home that contains vanilla extract that has alcohol in it, much less restaurants that serve alcohol, obviously with a clear conscience. Planes would have special dispensations (as a passenger) because it's sort of a special, necessary thing in today's world.

 

That said, the majority of Muslims would probably lean slightly in her favor just because the case could be made that she's in the middle of taking STEPS to get away from alcohol, and isn't there yet.

 

I'm just stopping by here. I'm not open for questions or anything b/c threads re: Islam in any fashion at all on the chat board deteriorate always and without exception. Just the above is just fyi.

[matrips]

Okay, but selling alcohol has always been part of the job for her, even when she applied and started working. It wasn't a new and recent change due to a law. So slightly different situation.

[EmseB]

I'm pretty sure case law says that reasonable accommodation should be made. Since a flight attendant's job is mostly about flight safety and serving drinks is non-essential I would hope they could accommodate her. There are all kinds of ways I can think of, logistically, that could allow a Muslim to not serve alcohol on flights. I would rather err on the side of religious freedom. If someone is hired to do one specific thing and they refuse, that's one thing. I don't think this is a case like that.

[DragonFaerie]

I'm pretty sure case law says that reasonable accommodation should be made. Since a flight attendant's job is mostly about flight safety and serving drinks is non-essential I would hope they could accommodate her. There are all kinds of ways I can think of, logistically, that could allow a Muslim to not serve alcohol on flights. I would rather err on the side of religious freedom. If someone is hired to do one specific thing and they refuse, that's one thing. I don't think this is a case like that.

 

I disagree.  Serving drinks is part of the job.  If she can't (or won't) do part of the job, then she needs to find a different job.  This one is obviously not a good fit for her.

[Joker]

I'm pretty sure case law says that reasonable accommodation should be made. Since a flight attendant's job is mostly about flight safety and serving drinks is non-essential I would hope they could accommodate her. There are all kinds of ways I can think of, logistically, that could allow a Muslim to not serve alcohol on flights. I would rather err on the side of religious freedom. If someone is hired to do one specific thing and they refuse, that's one thing. I don't think this is a case like that.

I don't think it's reasonable to ask the airline to lose money and/or other workers to pick up her slack. They've offered her other jobs within the airline that would accommodate her but she refuses. She should take one of the other positions, serve alcohol, or quit/be terminated.

[EmseB]

Except there are more positions on an airplane than just serving drinks.  And serving drinks is not the primary responsibility of a flight attendant.  I can see I'm in the minority, I just don't think it's unreasonable for a flight attendant to not serve alcohol.

[Joker]

Except there are more positions on an airplane than just serving drinks. And serving drinks is not the primary responsibility of a flight attendant. I can see I'm in the minority, I just don't think it's unreasonable for a flight attendant to not serve alcohol.

The past few times I've been on an airplane, all within the past two years, all airline employees on the plane were either flight attendants or pilots. Pilots flew and attendants all performed the duties to include serving drinks, serving food, answering questions, and picking up trash. They weren't each designated for separate duties. What other employees are on the plane?

[ErinE]

I'm pretty sure case law says that reasonable accommodation should be made. Since a flight attendant's job is mostly about flight safety and serving drinks is non-essential I would hope they could accommodate her. There are all kinds of ways I can think of, logistically, that could allow a Muslim to not serve alcohol on flights. I would rather err on the side of religious freedom. If someone is hired to do one specific thing and they refuse, that's one thing. I don't think this is a case like that.

 

They've tried to accommodate her and she's refused. The airline has an opportunity cost if it puts her on a short-haul, single attendant flight as she effectively costs the airline money (by forgoing drink sales) when she refuses to serve alcohol.

[Haiku]

This woman does not want a job that allows her to adhere to her religious beliefs. If she did, she would have taken ExpressJet up on their offer of transfer to another department. Instead, she wants others to do her work for her so she can keep a job that does not allow her to adhere to her religious beliefs. She wants other people to sacrifice for her beliefs so that SHE doesn't have to.

[gardenmom5]

I'm pretty sure case law says that reasonable accommodation should be made. Since a flight attendant's job is mostly about flight safety and serving drinks is non-essential I would hope they could accommodate her. There are all kinds of ways I can think of, logistically, that could allow a Muslim to not serve alcohol on flights. I would rather err on the side of religious freedom. If someone is hired to do one specific thing and they refuse, that's one thing. I don't think this is a case like that.

 

it is a case like that.  she was hired before she converted to islam.  she served alcoholic drinks to passenger - it IS part of her job description. AND SHE KNOWS THAT.  her employer HAS attempted to accommodate her by transferring her to an area she would not *be required* to serve alcohol. - she refuses all attempts - she wants the FA job - and not have to serve drinks.  sorry, that IS part of the job. her refusing to do 100% of her job description means her coworkers now have to do their job - and the part of hers she refuses to do.  she refuses to do flights where she'd be the only FA onboard - meaning her coworkers have to cover for her there too by taking more of those flights.

[Haiku]

The article said that having other people do her job for her was working "beautifully and without incident," but within two months of making that arrangement, someone actually got tired of picking up this woman's slack and there was an "incident" of filing a complaint, so I, personally, DON'T think the arrangement was working "beautifully."

[gardenmom5]

Except there are more positions on an airplane than just serving drinks.  And serving drinks is not the primary responsibility of a flight attendant.  I can see I'm in the minority, I just don't think it's unreasonable for a flight attendant to not serve alcohol.

 

how about a waitress who works in a bar?  how about if she's the *only* waitress who works in a bar who is supposed to get the alcoholic drinks for the customers?  how about the bartender?  that is effectively what she is.

 

the only airline employees who fly on the plane are the pilot/co-pilot and the FA's.  the FA's all have the same job description - which includes serving alcoholic drinks.  the only employees who fly on the plane who are not required to serve alcohol to customers who want it are the pilot/co-pilot because THEY are in the cockpit flying the plane.

[EmseB]

Look, if she were wanting to be a bartender, I'd agree with you all. But a flight attendant is about a lot more than serving drinks. It may be a revenue stream, but it's not the primary or even secondary purpose of their job.

[Um_2_4]

Well, I don't normally jump in these threads because, as okbud said, they tend to deteriorate quickly, BUT as a Muslim, yes there are jobs I would never dream of applying for and jobs I would turn down if offered. I have worked as a teacher, office manager, receptionist, computer repair tech, etc. But I would never think of applying to McDs (non halal meat), any grocery store (ditto plus alcohol), walmart/target/big box stores (alcohol & meat issue again), CVS or other drug stores, convenience stores, etc................................You get the pattern.And she seems to have picked and chosen which religious judgments she wants to use.... what about travel without a Mahram (male relative, husband or brother or son or uncle, etc if travelling over a certain distance, depending on the conversion, usually a fairly long distance like from city to another city with nothing between)??? I would never apply for a job that requires me to travel alone, like flight attendant or truck driver....

This is definitely something we teach the kids to look at as they think about careers.

I think she needs a new line of work. Desk agent, maybe?

[EmseB]

The article said that having other people do her job for her was working "beautifully and without incident," but within two months of making that arrangement, someone actually got tired of picking up this woman's slack and there was an "incident" of filing a complaint, so I, personally, DON'T think the arrangement was working "beautifully."

And if that person filed a complaint because she was Muslim and not because they particularly had issue with the system that was worked out?

[gardenmom5]

Well, I don't normally jump in these threads because, as okbud said, they tend to deteriorate quickly, BUT as a Muslim, yes there are jobs I would never dream of applying for a jobs I would turn down if offered. I have worked as a teacher, office manager, receptionist, computer repair tech, etc. But I would never think of applying to McDs (non halal meat), any grocery store (ditto plus alcohol), walmart/target/big box stores (alcohol & meat issue again), CVS or other drug stores, convenience stores, etc................................You get the pattern.And she seems to have picked and chosen which religious judgments she wants to use.... what about travel without a Mahram (male relative, husband or brother or son or uncle, etc if travelling over a certain distance, depending on the conversion, usually a fairly long distance like from city to another city with nothing between)??? I would never apply for a job that requires me to travel alone, like flight attendant or truck driver....

This is definitely something we teach the kids to look at as they think about careers.

I think she needs a new line of work. Desk agent, maybe?

 

dp.  apparently it went through before my internet cut out . . .

[Haiku]

And if that person filed a complaint because she was Muslim and not because they particularly had issue with the system that was worked out?

Then that person is a jerk of the highest degree. But that doesn't change the fact that, as the complaint alleges, she was not fulfilling her duties. Even a jerk shouldn't have to do extra work because some special snowflake refuses to do her job.

[gardenmom5]

Well, I don't normally jump in these threads because, as okbud said, they tend to deteriorate quickly, BUT as a Muslim, yes there are jobs I would never dream of applying for a jobs I would turn down if offered. I have worked as a teacher, office manager, receptionist, computer repair tech, etc. But I would never think of applying to McDs (non halal meat), any grocery store (ditto plus alcohol), walmart/target/big box stores (alcohol & meat issue again), CVS or other drug stores, convenience stores, etc................................You get the pattern.And she seems to have picked and chosen which religious judgments she wants to use.... what about travel without a Mahram (male relative, husband or brother or son or uncle, etc if travelling over a certain distance, depending on the conversion, usually a fairly long distance like from city to another city with nothing between)??? I would never apply for a job that requires me to travel alone, like flight attendant or truck driver....

This is definitely something we teach the kids to look at as they think about careers.

I think she needs a new line of work. Desk agent, maybe?

 

as a religious woman - there are jobs I wouldn't do because they are against my convictions (and have also talked with my children about when they think about what they do for a career) - but I wouldn't take a job then demand the employer change their business practice to accommodate me.

 

the airline did offer her other jobs within the airline that did not require serving alcohol.  she refused.  so this isn't about a job - but forcing other people to do what she wants them to do.

[ErinE]

Look, if she were wanting to be a bartender, I'd agree with you all. But a flight attendant is about a lot more than serving drinks. It may be a revenue stream, but it's not the primary or even secondary purpose of their job.

 

Serving food and drinks IS part of the flight attendants job. It's like saying gathering trash isn't part of the flight attendants job. Um, yes. Yes it is. She is expected to serve drinks as part of her job.

 

If the airline announces on a short haul, late night flight that's likely delayed (as I've flown many of them), the business people (the main customer base for airlines) are going to be unhappy. Why? Because, in the United States, selling alcoholic drinks is part of the service on flights. 

 

From a dollar standpoint, if the flight has 100 people, and let's say it's a 50% drink purchase (some customers will decline, some will buy more than one). The average drink costs $7 and the marginal cost of the alcohol is $1. The airline loses $300 every time this flight attendant flies a short haul flight. Most of the attendants I've spoken to fly 2 or 3 short-haul flights a day. It's grown to $600-$900. That is a real opportunity cost for the airline. Many of the short-haul flights operate on thin margins which is why there's quick turn around, packed in terminal gates, and only one flight attendant.

[marbel]

Look, if she were wanting to be a bartender, I'd agree with you all. But a flight attendant is about a lot more than serving drinks. It may be a revenue stream, but it's not the primary or even secondary purpose of their job.

 

That's not the point.  The point is that one of the duties of a flight attendant is serving drinks.   It may be low on the list, but it's on the list.  Employees don't get to pick which of their duties they get to skip out on.

 

Freedom of religion doesn't include getting a pass on work required for a job.

 

Having strong religious beliefs sometimes means sacrifice.  Sounds like she needs to sacrifice her desire to be a flight attendant. Or, maybe she could find an alcohol-free airline to work for.

[Arcadia]

This is copied from Delta but I guess most airlines would have similar job descriptions

"Prepare/serve meals & beverages. Sell onboard liquor, headsets, duty-free items. "

She needs to sign a new employment contract and maybe have a pay cut for lesser duties.

[kroe1]

I didn't know flight attendants really did anything besides serve food, drinks, and get the occasional blanket. The safety demonstrations are mostly done on a monitor screen now. Unless the plane starts to crash, I think they are just waiters and waitresses, although very cool ones who get to travel.

 

I agree, however, that I think we need to err on the side of religious freedom. And it is still legal for companies to ask up front if there are any physical limitations, cultural beliefs, etc. that will limit the ability of the applicant to perform this particular job. If the applicant lies, then that is grounds for termination. People mistakenly think that is discrimination, but it is not. The grey area is when things change after the fact. This airline has already demonstrated it can accommodate her because coworkers picked up the slack in the past. Those coworkers set the precedent.

 

The court clerk case,bakery owners, vegans, doctors not Insemminating, etc. who do not want to serve certain people are not as well protected. Their cases are the real controversial ones. They went into business (or public office) with no constraints to their religious freedom, yet found themselves later in quite a debacle. As a legal matter, they do not have a prayer's chance as we are already seeing played out in the courts. But, from an ethical standpoint, there should be a way to protect those with religious beliefs provided similar services are available elsewhere. It seems a shame to lock society into a narrow minded forced belief system when it is the diversity of our country which made it so great in the first place. Rigidly forcing people to perform out of their belief system, to me, is more constraining than the belief system itself.

[EmseB]

This is copied from Delta but I guess most airlines would have similar job descriptions

"Prepare/serve meals & beverages. Sell onboard liquor, headsets, duty-free items. "

She needs to sign a new employment contract and maybe have a pay cut for lesser duties.

I'm sure that is in a list of other requirements.

 

Ok, so I'm the odd duck that doesn't think it's particularly onerous for one flight attendant not to serve alcohol. I don't even think it's that special snowflake ish, among the religious liberty cases I've seen.

 

For the record, I have no religious convictions about alcohol, I'm not a tee-totaler, and I'm not Muslim. I just think it's a fairly easy accommodation. If she was refusing to touch men or something, it would be different because that could severely impact her ability to ensure passenger safety (primary job), but a flight attendant is not, primarily, a bartender even if that is what the public sees most visibly on a flight.

[Truscifi]

Look, if she were wanting to be a bartender, I'd agree with you all. But a flight attendant is about a lot more than serving drinks. It may be a revenue stream, but it's not the primary or even secondary purpose of their job.

 

:huh:

 

I'm pretty sure the airline that hired her gets to say what the purpose of her job is.

[marbel]

I'm sure that is in a list of other requirements.

 

Ok, so I'm the odd duck that doesn't think it's particularly onerous for one flight attendant not to serve alcohol. I don't even think it's that special snowflake ish, among the religious liberty cases I've seen.

 

For the record, I have no religious convictions about alcohol, I'm not a tee-totaler, and I'm not Muslim. I just think it's a fairly easy accommodation. If she was refusing to touch men or something, it would be different because that could severely impact her ability to ensure passenger safety (primary job), but a flight attendant is not, primarily, a bartender even if that is what the public sees most visibly on a flight.

 

I probably seem like I'm picking on you, but I don't mean to.

 

I don't fly a lot, though I used to and I doubt this has changed.  It doesn't seem all that easy to me, to have one flight attendant opt out of serving drinks.  I am picturing the FA's going down the aisles with the cart - which takes up the whole aisle.  Sometimes there would be a pair of FA's, one for each side of the aisle.  Sometimes there would just be one.  No one could predict which seats would want to buy alcohol (except of course those with children, but then there are usually parents in the same row, and some of them could probably use one).  It seems like it would be a hassle to have one of the FA's not serving, and delay the drink service.  Which in turn keeps the aisle blocked longer, and annoys customers.  The last thing airlines want to do is annoy customers.

 

(As you can tell, all my experience is in coach. :-) )

 

Seems like (based on a pp), the other employees shouldn't have accommodated her on their own to begin with.  I hope that becomes part of the training in the future:  "If one of your fellow employees says he or she can't do part of the job for some reason, don't offer to do it for them." 

 

 

 

 

[Catherine]

Honestly, assuming there was no true discrimination here, I think it's silly for someone to take a job as a flight attendant and somehow expect to continue to eschew serving alcohol.  Religious basis or no...it's part of the basic job description.  IMO she should have chosen a different vocation.  

 

I admire people who stand up for what they believe.  But the people I've admired before have been those who refused to do something illegal that their employer directed them to do, or who honored a religious prohibition of a social behavior that was encouraged.  No one is required to become a flight attendant.  Or county clerk.  Even the county clerk-I can understand her position, even if i don't agree, because the part of the job she objects to wasn't in her original job description. IMO one way to solve her problem is to just have some other person in her office issue any licenses she is unwilling to do.  That would be completely fair, because she wouldn't have to do a part of her job (that changed after she signed up) that she objects to, people would still get their legal licenses.   Then the ridiculous media circus might come to an end.  And maybe there are some people who don't actually want that...

[Seasider]

She wants other people to sacrifice for her beliefs so that SHE doesn't have to.

That's a powerful summation of the situation.