Colleges that require SAT Subjects tests of homeschoolers but not other applicants - just a vent

[cjzimmer1]

So one of the schools my DS is considering requires 3 SAT subjects tests from homeschoolers (but not from anyone else).  I understand they have no real way of evaluating homeschoolers curriculum choices and that for some students SAT subject tests are their only outside verification of material mastered.  But really when a student has 8 AP classes that are all 4's and 5's as well as additional college level classes, why oh why do they have to jump through the SAT subject test hoops.  Clearly the student is capable of college level work.  I am tempting to write a letter expressing my disappointment in this arbitrary policy, surely they could consider AP scores in leiu of the SAT subject tests.  Also in frustrates me because we are lower income and it's just more expenses in this whole process.  We'd qualify for a fee waiver but we can't get one because they are for those with reduced/free lunches, which we don't get because we don't go to school and the school won't fill out the form for kids who don't attend the school.  Sorry just my whine for the day.

[momofkhm]

I hear you!  DD applied to one of those schools.  And she had one AP class, not score yet and 15 credits of cc.  When they asked for it, I told dd it was up to her.  Do the tests or skip the school.  It was one that she would have needed huge scholarship to attend, so she skipped.

 

 

[Reefgazer]

I think they do it because it is the standard go-to policy for homeschoolers because (I would guess) the majority of homeschoolers do not have AP classes. I don't get upset at these requirements. I just look at it as a slightly different journey for my homeschooled student than for other students.

[creekland]

Have you e-mailed them to double check they won't accept AP instead?  All but one of the schools middle son was interested let him substitute.  He opted to not apply to that one (Emory).  He was so annoyed he didn't even want us to visit even when we were driving right by Atlanta.

 

IMO, their loss, esp now that he's quite near the top of his class at a rival school and giving them bragging rights instead.  He's also convinced a few students (not homeschoolers) who were accepted to both that his school is the better choice... ;)  

[cjzimmer1]

Have you e-mailed them to double check they won't accept AP instead?  All but one of the schools middle son was interested let him substitute.  He opted to not apply to that one (Emory).  He was so annoyed he didn't even want us to visit even when we were driving right by Atlanta.

 

 

Yes I did and there is no give on the homeschoolers policy. I even mentioned that all these AP classes were being taught by an outside College Board approved provider(and if there were actually concerned  even the grades aren't mommy grades). I'm annoyed enough that I actually hope my DS will decide it's not worth it to apply there and then I can send my note without worrying that I would affect his chances.  But for now I'll hold my tongue and let DS decide if the school is a good choice for him or not.

[Teachin'Mine]

In the guidance couselor letter I included info about having fewer SAT II test scores and asked them to consider dd's college courses instead.  Some were fine with that and for others it may have been part of the reason for a denial.  Hopefully your son will either decide not to apply there, or will have the time to take the tests.  Yes getting fee waivers is not easy as the public schools save them for their own students.  Sometimes private high schools will help out if they're able.  Some colleges will accept scores if they're listed on the official transcript, so you might want to include them there and then ask individual ones if that is sufficient or if they need an official score report.  Applying to a lot of colleges, which is what dd did since there was high need, is costly.  Even if all the applications themselves are free, the test score reports and CSS Profile charges really add up. 

[FaithManor]

We dropped one from ds's list that absolutely refused to accept AP from a homeschooler in lieu of SAT subject tests, but required neither from the local PS kids many of whom are sorely undereducated. On top of which, the few that do attend college have a high drop out rate. Sigh...anyway, these are extremely difficult to get locally so I have anywhere from an 85-120 mile one way trip IF we can get a seat for these tests plus the testing fees plus the traffic since these are nearly always northern Detroit Burbs or Ann Arbor (US 23 can be nothing but a parking lot early in the morning and we have no really good alternative route due to the lakes in the region...lots of muddy, dirt roads, etc.) so when I had up the cost, the angst, leaving at 4 of 5 a.m. in order to guarantee we can be there in time and prepping for a different testing format, it adds up to not worth it and especially since the school was not stronger in his program than any of the others on his list. A little more prestigious, but for what he is doing, that makes zero difference. In terms of undergraduate research opportunities specific to his passion, they would actually be the bottom of his list. Just not worth the effort.

[katilac]

I agree that I have no problem with requiring outside verification, but yes, it should be a little more open than that. 

 

dd is applying to a school that requires it; it's not tops on her list, so we aren't bothering to check and see if there's wiggle room. They have waived her application fee so we'll just let them decide based on what we send them. ETA that we wouldn't do that if we had to pay a substantial application fee. 

 

We barely have time to get required courses done, much less add in subject tests. 

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I think they use SAT subject test because there is no access issue for those as there can be with AP exams or with access to formally credentialed AP classes.  

 

I think it comes down to trust--they don't believe that homeschoolers are providing the level of education they claim they are and the school wants outside, objective proof that you have achieved all you claim.  They want one standard of measure and don't want to sort through a variety of testing systems.  Also, many students (in general) don't have a significant number of AP classes until senior year and therefore don't have scores until after admissions season.

 

My dd researched a couple schools that want 5 SAT subject tests-typically with which tests specified by subject area (i.e. one each in math, English, Foreign Language, etc.).  I left that choice up to her.

[Gwen in VA]

And you can always apply without the required tests.

 

Much to my surprise, one young lady I know was accepted to multiple colleges that required SAT-2's, even though she had not only no SAT-2's but no AP's and no CC classes. So weird things happen sometimes!

 

I am NOT recommending applying without the required materials, but I am mentioning this under the "you just never know" category. If I didn't know the young lady in question pretty well I'm not sure I would have believed it, but I do and she did.

 

Who knows what goes on in the minds of admissions people.....

[teachermom2834]

There are a couple schools ds likes enough to apply without the SAT 2s to see what happens. There are no schools ds likes enoughto do extra stuff for. SAT 2s would require major prep for him at this point and he is an inconsistent tester. Just not worth it to him.

 

However, the ease of the common app combined with the free application make it likely he will apply to one or more of these schools with extra requirements. If the only cost is sending scores I can live with that. We won't be surprised if he is denied, though.

[justkeepswimming]

Amen! DDs schedule stands in the way of her attending the SATIIs on the testing dates they provide until December's test dates (she COULD attend the October testing date, but it will involved a LOT of pleading and re-working other people's schedules to a painful degree). She's dropped all the schools off her list that require it at this point. She has eleventy-billion other things she needs to be doing with her time right now.

 

When a school accepts students with a 20ACT score, but requires homeschooled students with a significantly higher ACT or SAT score to take this-this-and-that additional test, it just irks me beyond belief.

[TravelingChris]

My dd is happily enjoying her first year at Rhodes College which did (does?) have a requirement for SAT IIs and she never took one.  SHe did have dual enrollment at a university but didn't argue with them, she just applied without those scores.

[teachermom2834]

My dd is happily enjoying her first year at Rhodes College which did (does?) have a requirement for SAT IIs and she never took one. SHe did have dual enrollment at a university but didn't argue with them, she just applied without those scores.

This is our plan at Rhodes. Almost crossed it off the list because of the requirement until I read this about your dd on an earlier thread. Thanks for sharing this info.

[GoodGrief]

My oldest applied without subject tests to schools that required subject tests; she just never pulled it together to get them done (testing was not her strength.) I can't say she successfully got in, but she did end up on several waiting lists for schools that supposedly required the tests (and not just of homeschoolers, but everyone.)

 

For what it's worth, while schools may not outright require subject tests for those enrolled in school, it does make a candidate more competitive to have done one test or more (depending on where you are applying, of course), homeschooled or not.

 

 

 

[creekland]

 

For what it's worth, while schools may not outright require subject tests for those enrolled in school, it does make a candidate more competitive to have done one test or more (depending on where you are applying, of course), homeschooled or not.

 

I don't think any of my guys would have been more competitive with SAT II tests.

 

When we talked with admissions about doing them (or not) the main reply was that students who test well will always test well, so as long as they see some high tests (NOT necessarily SAT IIs) they aren't worried about others.  They know if there were more those would be high too.  They move on to other aspects of the application once they've glanced at test scores.

 

My youngest didn't test all that high on the SAT (a bit higher than average, but not tippy top) and he was told pretty much the same thing - no need for additional testing.  They expected his scores on other tests would match those he had.

[cjzimmer1]

I'm glad to hear the stories of applying without meeting all the "requirements".  I'm a rule-follower, it honestly would never have occurred to be to have DS apply somewhere knowing he wouldn't met all the requirements. Besides this school he also has MIT on his list.  They require 2 SAT subjects but at least it is required of everyone.   If DS truly decodes to apply to MIT I will make him take the SAT subjects, I don't want to risk they will just throw out the app because he hasn't met the requirements.  The first school I don't care so much about.

[justkeepswimming]

I'm glad to hear the stories of applying without meeting all the "requirements".  I'm a rule-follower, it honestly would never have occurred to be to have DS apply somewhere knowing he wouldn't met all the requirements.

 

Agreed! I tend to view rules as rigid, set guidelines. It would not have occurred to either dd or I to apply without the SATIIs. Hmmm. I guess there'd be very little to lose (just the application fee) if she still wanted to apply to one of those schools if it is otherwise still high on her list of interests.

 

It's nice to see others thinking out of the box! That is SO not how my brain works in cases like these - I leap to "absolutes!" I need to think more adventerously! :) :auto:

[Joules]

Not thrilled with it here either, ds has started a dual enrollment honors program and is taking college honors classes, but he will have to take Saturdays in Oct and Nov to get in the Math and German subject tests.  (He does have other options to show FL proficiency, but right now SAT may be the easiest.) Some of it is the study time, some is just the hassle.  The Math has to be in earlier for EA so has to be Oct, but the German isn't offered until Nov.  And he has to write college essays!

 

It turns out starting a rigorous DE program in one's senior year may not be the best time.  I wish I'd known about this one a year earlier (or could somehow redeclare him as a junior.)

[JanetC]

You can use private counselors to get a fee waiver as well.

 

http://wiselikeus.com/collegewise/2014/08/for-counselors-application-fee-waivers.html

 

If there are private college counselors in your area, I would try emailing them and seeing if you can find someone who would help.

[Dmmetler]

For Rhodes, I'm not surprised to hear they have to be more flexible than they are on paper. The SAT, both general and subject tests, just aren't commonly offered in Memphis. I could easily see a qualified student being unable to find a slot on a given test date for a specific test without a long drive.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I think they use SAT subject test because there is no access issue for those as there can be with AP exams or with access to formally credentialed AP classes.  

 

I think it comes down to trust--they don't believe that homeschoolers are providing the level of education they claim they are and the school wants outside, objective proof that you have achieved all you claim.  They want one standard of measure and don't want to sort through a variety of testing systems.  Also, many students (in general) don't have a significant number of AP classes until senior year and therefore don't have scores until after admissions season.

 

My dd researched a couple schools that want 5 SAT subject tests-typically with which tests specified by subject area (i.e. one each in math, English, Foreign Language, etc.).  I left that choice up to her.

I can see that they can provide outside verification of one's homeschool experience.  And I see that they can possibly be easier to gain access to than an AP.  But I really don't see why a school would require more SAT subject tests of homeschoolers than of everyone else.  There are lots of brick and mortar schools that are not that rigorous, yet those students get a pass.  Requiring them only of homeschoolers provides a benchmark to compare homeschoolers to homeschoolers, not to the general pool of applicants.  If a student has halfway decent ACT or SAT scores, how does a SAT II further verify a student's ability or knowledge base for only homeschooled students?  What is even more asinine is requiring only the subject tests and not allowing AP tests or college classes to be an alternate avenue for verification.   

[TravelingChris]

My dd didn;t take them because she visited Rhodes in October and applied by NOv something with their early action II date.  SHe also had no time to study for those exams because she was taking college classes at the University that took a lot of her time.She had a recommendation from her College Chemistry teacher that was highly praising her.  She had received advice to apply by the early action date because they would look on that favorably. 

 

None of my three kids ever did SAT IIs.  Their lives were too busy to waste even more Saturdays to test.

[Sunshine State Sue]

I'm glad to hear the stories of applying without meeting all the "requirements".  I'm a rule-follower, it honestly would never have occurred to be to have DS apply somewhere knowing he wouldn't met all the requirements.

Another rule-follower here.  Ds took too many SAT 2s because he was interested in Emory.  I called and emailed and they confirmed that 69 CC credits with a 4.0 wasn't good enough for them.  Not to mention the 31 ACT score.  Ds didn't do all that well on the SAT 2s (except for math).  He did not prepare for them at all.  CC must not be concerned with students doing well on the SAT 2s.  Now I am wishing I had had him apply without the SAT 2s just to see.  But, he eventually crossed the school off his list because they didn't have a school of engineering.  I wish I had been sneaky enough to not only have him apply, but to notify the basketball coach (who really wanted him) about his application.  Oh, to have a do-over.  :biggrinjester:

We toured the school after sophomore year when we were in Atlanta for a basketball tournament.  It has a beautiful campus. 

 

I really don't see why a school would require more SAT subject tests of homeschoolers than of everyone else.  There are lots of brick and mortar schools that are not that rigorous, yet those students get a pass.  Requiring them only of homeschoolers provides a benchmark to compare homeschoolers to homeschoolers, not to the general pool of applicants.  If a student has halfway decent ACT or SAT scores, how does a SAT II further verify a student's ability or knowledge base for only homeschooled students?  What is even more asinine is requiring only the subject tests and not allowing AP tests or college classes to be an alternate avenue for verification.   

Well said.  :hurray:

[justkeepswimming]

Another rule-follower here.  Ds took too many SAT 2s because he was interested in Emory.  I called and emailed and they confirmed that 69 CC credits with a 4.0 wasn't good enough for them.  Not to mention the 31 ACT score.  Ds didn't do all that well on the SAT 2s (except for math).  He did not prepare for them at all.  CC must not be concerned with students doing well on the SAT 2s.  Now I am wishing I had had him apply without the SAT 2s just to see.  But, he eventually crossed the school off his list because they didn't have a school of engineering.  I wish I had been sneaky enough to not only have him apply, but to notify the basketball coach (who really wanted him) about his application.  Oh, to have a do-over.  :biggrinjester:

We toured the school after sophomore year when we were in Atlanta for a basketball tournament.  It has a beautiful campus. 

 

Well said.  :hurray:

 

@Sue in St Pete - your signature line is cracking me UP!! Oh, how I look forward to that day --- far, far, far, far, farrrrr in my future! (Assuming that I survive getting the first kid launched... this process just might do me in. lol)

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I can see that they can provide outside verification of one's homeschool experience.  And I see that they can possibly be easier to gain access to than an AP.  But I really don't see why a school would require more SAT subject tests of homeschoolers than of everyone else.  There are lots of brick and mortar schools that are not that rigorous, yet those students get a pass.  Requiring them only of homeschoolers provides a benchmark to compare homeschoolers to homeschoolers, not to the general pool of applicants.  If a student has halfway decent ACT or SAT scores, how does a SAT II further verify a student's ability or knowledge base for only homeschooled students?  What is even more asinine is requiring only the subject tests and not allowing AP tests or college classes to be an alternate avenue for verification.   

 

Please don't misunderstand me--I in no way agree with the idea that homeschoolers should provide test scores in excess of those asked from any other student.  I think it is ridiculous and have not encouraged my kids to consider schools that unfriendly to homeschoolers.  If they want to pursue a school that has these excess requirements I'll certainly provide the opportunity to take the extra tests but so far they are as offended as I am.

 

I was merely pointing out what I assume to be one (or more) of the possible explanations from the schools' point of view.

[Gwen in VA]

I have two nieces and a nephew who attended a top prep school for high school. Despite the school's amazing reputation, they took oodles of tests -- SAT-2's, SAT, ACT, etc. (They only took a handful of AP's because the school had moved beyond them, but they did take a handful of AP's.)

 

My dh and I took lots of tests in high school. We went to a top public high school in MA, and basically every honors-track student at our school spent lots of Saturdays filling in bubbles.

 

So I guess I don't think twice about homeschoolers needing to take tests. At schools where the admissions rate is 20% or less, the schools get to call the admissions shots.

 

(Now, why less prestigious colleges require more tests of homeschoolers is a complete mystery to me! But it's their loss -- if homeschoolers don't apply, the colleges loses out on some great students!)

[Woodland Mist Academy]

FWIW,  I was told by admissions at Vanderbilt that they recently dropped their requirement that homeschoolers have SAT subject tests, etc. They now have the same requirements as everyone else because they realized homeschooled students were doing well, and extra hoops weren't needed. They even have a dedicated homeschool admissions officer who is reportedly well-versed in different aspects and approaches of homeschooling. 

 

This was all good news to me! Hopefully other schools will follow.

 

 

[Dmmetler]

The thing is, if you're in an area where SAT tests aren't common, there IS an access issue. If the SAT 2 tests don't have local test sites, that is very different from an area where they're offered every single test date. And not all families can afford to travel for a weekend so their child can test.

 

Honestly, if it weren't for National Merit, I don't know that we'd have an SAT test site at all. The only kids who seem to take it are those who did well on the PSAT and need the SAT to qualify for the award.

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

The thing is, if you're in an area where SAT tests aren't common, there IS an access issue. If the SAT 2 tests don't have local test sites, that is very different from an area where they're offered every single test date. And not all families can afford to travel for a weekend so their child can test.

 

Honestly, if it weren't for National Merit, I don't know that we'd have an SAT test site at all. The only kids who seem to take it are those who did well on the PSAT and need the SAT to qualify for the award.

Is this because students are taking the ACT? Possibly even during the school day? Or is there just low interest?

[Dmmetler]

The ACT rules here, and many high schools require it for graduation. Colleges in the region accept the SAT, but most scholarships are based on ACT scores.

 

To get the idea, my DD is taking the SAT for talent search this year. Since she's under 13, she can't register online. The statement from both the college board and from Johns Hopkins was "get a form from your high school guidance office". Local school just said "I think you can register online". People on the Hive suggested libraries-no dice. They simply don't keep it around because no one registers for the SAT (at least not using a paper form). My cover school did get us one-by their counselor calling college board, requesting a physical form, and then sticking the envelope they got from college board in another one to mail it to me.

 

I suspect it would be similar if you wanted to take the ACT in states where everyone takes the SAT, but as far as I know, there is no situation where the ACT is required without another option.

[Arcadia]

To get the idea, my DD is taking the SAT for talent search this year. Since she's under 13, she can't register online. The statement from both the college board and from Johns Hopkins was "get a form from your high school guidance office".

 

The CollegeBoard mailed me the full packet for mail-in registration within a week of submitting an online request.  I used the link below and just typed "Please mail me a registration packet for my under 13 child at below mailing address" in the comments section. I received an email from them within 24hrs that they were happy to oblige.

 

https://sat.collegeboard.org/contact

​

I have 6 public high schools, 2 private high schools and 1 state university as SAT test centers within easy commute.

For ACT, I have 6 public high schools and 1 state university for test centers for Saturday and a private high school test on Sunday for religious reasons.

 

Libraries are well stocked on ACT/SAT/AP/PSAT/MCAT/CLEP prep books and kids probably take both ACT and SAT since I am in a "test happy" area.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I was mucking about on College Board yesterday, ordering test score reports ( :rant:  Why doesn't the Common App consolidate THAT info for goodness sake?) .  I poked around a bit to see where ds would be able to take subject tests.

 

It looks like the Nov test date only has about 6 testing centers on island.  The public high schools do take the ACT in school as a high school assessment battery.  At least a couple of the schools that are testing centers are private schools.  There was an ok mix between downtown Honolulu and West Oahu, but I think students from the North Shore would have quite a commute.

 

I can only imagine the travel times for students on Hawaii Island or rural areas of Maui or Kauai.

 

When dss took their first AP exams, it took me weeks to find a testing site.  We were in the middle of a cross country move during the registration window and I was calling and emailing schools, but had no idea where we were going to actually live.  The test site for AP Comp Gov ended up being on the other side of the county.  We got a hotel room for the night before, because I didn't want to have to leave the house at 5am to be sure of getting to the site by the time of the morning test.  

 

There are real issues of access that I don't think College Board does much to address.  (I read Margaret in CO's descriptions of winter mountain driving and can only wince.)  Nor do colleges seem to consider the financial and scheduling consequences of what they are asking for.

 

The local university wants homeschoolers to either have a GED, SAT Subject Test scores or ACT subtest scores.  I'm told the addition of the Subject Test scores was an improvement over the GED only option from a few years ago.

[Arcadia]

 

There are real issues of access that I don't think College Board does much to address. (I read Margaret in CO's descriptions of winter mountain driving and can only wince.) Nor do colleges seem to consider the financial and scheduling consequences of what they are asking for.

 

The local university wants homeschoolers to either have a GED, SAT Subject Test scores or ACT subtest scores. I'm told the addition of the Subject Test scores was an improvement over the GED only option from a few years ago.

:Iagree:

I think College Board just assumes that people would somehow be able to take the tests at local private school or at what would have been their local assigned high school. My district has two B&M high schools and two alternative high school programs. Only one B&M high school is a SAT/ACT test center for outsiders. The other B&M high school probably is full from taking care of the candidates from their alternative high school programs. Even in my high density area, I already heard of difficulties finding AP test centers.

 

The state university nearest to me is nice enough to host the ACT and SAT subject tests on all test dates. That state u (SJSU) is also a 5mins (1000 feet) walk to the light rail train station so accessible by a big population as a test center :)

[ValRN]

My DS also faced the SAT II issue with one of the colleges he planned on applying to. He decided to NOT jump through that hoop because there are plenty of other schools that will accept his cc and AP courses as proof of preparedness.

[MarkT]

I am only an after-school not a home-schooler but in this particular case it sounds so stupid

look at the darn AP tests and compare to other applicants -  the college acceptance people involved should actually use their brains!!

[MarkT]

We dropped one from ds's list that absolutely refused to accept AP from a homeschooler in lieu of SAT subject tests, but required neither from the local PS kids many of whom are sorely undereducated. On top of which, the few that do attend college have a high drop out rate. Sigh...anyway, these are extremely difficult to get locally so I have anywhere from an 85-120 mile one way trip IF we can get a seat for these tests plus the testing fees plus the traffic since these are nearly always northern Detroit Burbs or Ann Arbor (US 23 can be nothing but a parking lot early in the morning and we have no really good alternative route due to the lakes in the region...lots of muddy, dirt roads, etc.) so when I had up the cost, the angst, leaving at 4 of 5 a.m. in order to guarantee we can be there in time and prepping for a different testing format, it adds up to not worth it and especially since the school was not stronger in his program than any of the others on his list. A little more prestigious, but for what he is doing, that makes zero difference. In terms of undergraduate research opportunities specific to his passion, they would actually be the bottom of his list. Just not worth the effort.

love this - just say NO