Sunshine72 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 After reading the GAL remarks in this article taking the kids away from the mom makes sense. That is some crazy stuff. Poor kids!! http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2015/07/10/children-detained-rejecting-father/29979759/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 After reading the GAL remarks in this article taking the kids away from the mom makes sense. That is some crazy stuff. Poor kids!! http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2015/07/10/children-detained-rejecting-father/29979759/ I would like to know why the GAL is talking to the press. I thought that their work was confidential as it involves minor children. Also, is the identity of minor children not protected somehow? It's sad that this could come up for years after it is resolved because so much information is out there about the children. I hope the children have some very wise friends as they grow up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daria Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 After reading the GAL remarks in this article taking the kids away from the mom makes sense. That is some crazy stuff. Poor kids!! http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2015/07/10/children-detained-rejecting-father/29979759/ I can imagine that taking them away from mom, might make sense, and that giving custody immediately to Dad makes get not have made sense. I can even imagine that Mandy's Place or whatever it is called might have been the right location, but framing it as a punishment and blaming the kids for it made no sense. Also cutting them off from each other and everyone they've known makes no sense. Maybe mom can't visit, but teachers and friends and clergy? If you want the kids to be open to therapy that wasn't the way to do it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I think any time an adult refers to a 15 year old as "Charles Manson" it's time for that adult to take a step back. :( 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 After reading the GAL remarks in this article taking the kids away from the mom makes sense. That is some crazy stuff. Poor kids!! http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2015/07/10/children-detained-rejecting-father/29979759/ Even those comments do not signal to me that she has committed parental alienation. The GAL even said all the ways the father and children have tried to reconcile the mother has suggested. The kids huddled together toe tapping, there is no proof it is morse code, they said it was like morse code, but even kids from a home without this stuff come up with ways to communicate to each other. And the mother speaking in hebrew, I know of many families where the parents and kids speak in their home language when nervous etc. Now yes she may very well be guilty of it, but I don't have enough evidence to warrant that accusation and removal of the children from her care. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Even those comments do not signal to me that she has committed parental alienation. The GAL even said all the ways the father and children have tried to reconcile the mother has suggested. The kids huddled together toe tapping, there is no proof it is morse code, they said it was like morse code, but even kids from a home without this stuff come up with ways to communicate to each other. And the mother speaking in hebrew, I know of many families where the parents and kids speak in their home language when nervous etc. Now yes she may very well be guilty of it, but I don't have enough evidence to warrant that accusation and removal of the children from her care. You aren't going to get "evidence" in a few sentences from a GAL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraidycat Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 "Your children — you need to do a research program on Charlie Manson and the cult that he has. Your behavior in the hall with me months ago, your behavior in this courtroom ... is unlike anything I've ever seen in 46,000 cases," said Gorcyca. Wow. It really sounds like this judge has an axe to grind against the mother. Why is she bringing up stuff that happened IN A HALLWAY months prior? What does that have to do with the kids visiting their father, or not? She really needs to have her butt handed to her on a platter, no matter what else happens in this case. This judge needs to lose her job,her reputation, and her license to practice law - anywhere, ever. What a nasty piece of work. She is not impartial judge material. At all. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Child custody and visitation IS court orders. If your 13 year decided she/he never wanted to I meant like drug treatment. And i would be distraight but i don't want them literally dragged to visit me or forced under threat of detention. Stern words and bribery maybe but even then it would be a power play not a pleasant experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 After reading the GAL remarks in this article taking the kids away from the mom makes sense. That is some crazy stuff. Poor kids!! http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2015/07/10/children-detained-rejecting-father/29979759/ I don't know...to me I actually think that the GAL sounds very unprofessional....speaking to the press.....and he's the one who brought up the Charles Manson analogy in the first place. I think he's annoyed that his efforts have not worked...and he blames the Mom. Yet, she (according to his statement) has tried to suggest numerous ways to facilitate their Dad's communication with the kids...such as having a neighbor or dog present. The GAL also seems to take issue with the kids speaking Hebrew with their Mom. Well the Dad speaks Hebrew too. That area of Michigan has a large Jewish population....many Jewish lawyers, social workers, etc. It would not be difficult to find a Hebrew speaking GAL if that was an issue. Mom could be at fault. So could Dad. I don't know. What I do know is that it seems like both the Judge and former GAL are acting very unprofessional. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 so - now the kids are being sent to two weeks of summer camp after spending two weeks in juvie? (and they don't know where they'll be after that?) I can't imagine the fear the 9yo must be feeling . . . and it's not getting any more stable and secure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 A NCP cannot parent at all if he has no contact with his child. Sure teens have to make their own relationship with the NCP.....maybe they won't be close, maybe kid doesn't like the parent. But I do consider it a CPs responsibility to ensure at least some contact. I think your feelings about this are colored by your dh's experiences with his own ds, and that is understandable. However, while I believe your dh is a great guy, I also believe that most kids who don't want to see one of their parents have good reasons for it. I don't believe the majority of custodial parents are intentionally poisoning their children's minds against the non-custodial parent. I think kids see their parents go through divorces and want to side with one or the other based on the behaviors they witnessed in their homes over the years -- and a lot of kids have seen some pretty unpleasant stuff in private from parents who are able to put on a great Parent of the Year kind of show in public. And honestly, I disagree that a custodial parent is responsible for ensuring contact between the non-custodial parent and a child who wants nothing to do with that parent. If I was divorced and my ds had good reason for not wanting to see his father, I would do anything within my power to help him find a legal way to refuse the visitation. What is the point of forcing a kid to see a parent with whom they feel uncomfortable, angry, or scared? 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/29504600/friends-rally-for-kids-sent-to-jail-for-refusing-have-lunch-with-dad "For people like Mark Honeyman and Karen Gilch, they want the kids to know they have their support and don't understand why what is going on between the parents is costing the children so much. "My concern is I love these kids," Honeyman, the former teacher, said. "I think they're incredible kids. If the ultimate goal is to reconcile with their father, there has to be a better way than this." Gilch's kids go to school with the Tsimhoni kids and they've all spent time together. "She's a good mom. We've gone on field trips together, babysat for each others kids. the kids are happy and smart," Gilch said." So, at least this Mom doesn't think that the kids are part of a cult. I wonder what the school says? Are the kids "normal" except for when being forced to see their Dad? I also thought this article in Haaretz adds an interesting light regarding how Mom didn't want to move back to Israel, so she filed for divorce. They reconciled for a few months, moved, and then she returned to Michigan and filed again. Apparently, Israeli divorce law would not view her favorably...and that may be one reason why she didn't want to be there. (From what I understand, it would be up to the father even to grant her a divorce/get.) Also sounds like Dad was out of the picture for some time (in Israel) before moving back to MI to have a relationship with his kids. http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/routine-emergencies/.premium-1.665369 For more on child custody in Israel, see http://www.family-laws.co.il/child-custody-age 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 On some level, I don't feel like I can judge what happens to the kids or parents. And the focus on them seems off to me. The real focus of what's wrong in this case is that horrible judge. Get rid of her. No one should threaten a 9 yo that she'll have to be naked in front of strangers and call her names like that. 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 On some level, I don't feel like I can judge what happens to the kids or parents. And the focus on them seems off to me. The real focus of what's wrong in this case is that horrible judge. Get rid of her. No one should threaten a 9 yo that she'll have to be naked in front of strangers and call her names like that. I wish I could like this more. I just picture dudeling (10) in this type of situation (just being taken away), and am filled with abject horror of what it would do to him long term. granted he has anxiety and asd - but this would absolutely scar him. the judge is reprehensible - and I can't imagine how she thinks this is going to help reconcile the children with their father. I actually feel sorry for any kids she may have. she uses punitive punishment to attempt to coerce children into doing what she wants. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 11, 2015 Author Share Posted July 11, 2015 I think your feelings about this are colored by your dh's experiences with his own ds, and that is understandable. However, while I believe your dh is a great guy, I also believe that most kids who don't want to see one of their parents have good reasons for it. I don't believe the majority of custodial parents are intentionally poisoning their children's minds against the non-custodial parent. I think kids see their parents go through divorces and want to side with one or the other based on the behaviors they witnessed in their homes over the years -- and a lot of kids have seen some pretty unpleasant stuff in private from parents who are able to put on a great Parent of the Year kind of show in public. And honestly, I disagree that a custodial parent is responsible for ensuring contact between the non-custodial parent and a child who wants nothing to do with that parent. If I was divorced and my ds had good reason for not wanting to see his father, I would do anything within my power to help him find a legal way to refuse the visitation. What is the point of forcing a kid to see a parent with whom they feel uncomfortable, angry, or scared? The point is because the parent child relationship is primary and should not be severed unless the circumstances are extreme. The CP has the most influence over the child or teen and just like they should encourage a halfway healthy diet even if the child doesn't like it they should ensure some contact with the other parent even if they don't like it. Most teens who don't want to see their other parent aren't scared. In my sons case he mostly doesn't want to go because it interrupts his life. I think that is the case with a lot of kids. I think my dss18 started down that path and his mom and step dad jumped in and used it to pile hate on dh where none was warranted. So I stead of, " hey dad dont make me come every other weekend, I just want to come sometimes" he went with,"you made my mom cry you will never see me again". I could have done that with my son. Instead I thought about the fact that my xh, while notably not the greatest father is still my sons father and they have the right to have some sort of relationship. I also say to my son, "your father has made the bed he lies in now, but he can't undo it and he remains your father. It is unkind to refuse contact. It is unkind to not respond to his texts. And I know you want to be kind." I will say I learned by watching the other end of it....the suffering my dh goes through. I might not be as empathetic toward xh otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 The articles said that the mother did encourage them in the same way to see their father. They refused. So at that point, what is she to do? Punish them until they do? (Which is the judge's view, I think and what the judge is trying since the mother wouldn't.) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 The articles said that the mother did encourage them in the same way to see their father. They refused. So at that point, what is she to do? Punish them until they do? (Which is the judge's view, I think and what the judge is trying since the mother wouldn't.) If she really is trying to get the kids to see their father then she has lost control of them. What I suspect is that she is NOW trying to plays nice but she has lost control. The same thing happened with my dss18. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 And how is she supposed to regain control? Beat them? Throw them in Juvie? (Neither which I condone, btw.) 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 And how is she supposed to regain control? Beat them? Throw them in Juvie? (Neither which I condone, btw.) Sadly I believe it is almost impossible. She would have to be very sincere in her change of heart and the kids would need intensive therapy. They definitely didn't need an unhinged judge making things worse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 And how is she supposed to regain control? Beat them? Throw them in Juvie? (Neither which I condone, btw.) Exactly! These kids picked JAIL over lunch with their father. Why isn't it up to the father to "regain control" when he's the one they're not seeing? (I'm not able to buy in to the "control" model of parenting to be honest. At some point, a child is going to say no. The parent may or may not be able to change the child's mind. The child may choose the consequence or punishment instead, as these children did.) 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinsomeCreek Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I apologize if this was already talked about. I looked up the last name of the judge and found this: http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2015/06/01/wendrow-julian-thal-facilitated-communication-oakland-county-dave-gorcyca/28320065/ The judge's husband (former DA) lost a huge lawsuit for accusing a father of rape of the man's own autistic daughter. It was found to be baseless. The father was imprisoned. Sounds to me like this couple has some serious, serious issues. He has since left his position. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/07/09/michigan-judge-bullies-children-in-open-court-for-refusing-to-see-their-dad/ Court mandated family counseling seems entirely appropriate. What's happening is craziness. Edited: fixed autocorrect corrections. Adding that it looks like the DA already had stepped down before the lawsuit. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinsomeCreek Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 And because I have insomnia... Further reading about how the prosecutors got together shows they won't be getting any parent of the year awards. Just maybe also have a personal stake in this issue, as in she probably identifies with the dad. Interviews show a couple of fairly impassioned prosecutors. I hope she makes this situation right. Not even letting the kids see each other is IMO actually in the cruel and unusual realm. They may end up needing more therapy as a result of this judge's actions than from their home situation. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 I apologize if this was already talked about. I looked up the last name of the judge and found this: http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2015/06/01/wendrow-julian-thal-facilitated-communication-oakland-county-dave-gorcyca/28320065/ The judge's husband (former DA) lost a huge lawsuit for accusing a father of rape of the man's own autistic daughter. It was found to be baseless. The father was imprisoned. Sounds to me like this couple has some serious, serious issues. He has since left his position. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/07/09/michigan-judge-bullies-children-in-open-court-for-refusing-to-see-their-dad/ Court mandated family counseling seems entirely appropriate. What's happening is craziness. Edited: fixed autocorrect corrections. Adding that it looks like the DA already had stepped down before the lawsuit. I read all of that about the judge and her husband too. If there is one thing we all seem to agree on inp this thread it sis that this judge is crazy and did a serious wrong to these kids. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 12, 2015 Author Share Posted July 12, 2015 Exactly! These kids picked JAIL over lunch with their father. Why isn't it up to the father to "regain control" when he's the one they're not seeing? (I'm not able to buy in to the "control" model of parenting to be honest. At some point, a child is going to say no. The parent may or may not be able to change the child's mind. The child may choose the consequence or punishment instead, as these children did.) How can he influence them one way or the other if they won't see him or speak to him? I know this case we don't know all the details. Maybe he is the worst father ever. But I know there are fathers out there who were shoved out of their kids lives and all ties severed through zero fault of the father. My dh even drove an hour and a half to his son's school and talked to the school,counselor. Dh had written a letter to dss and asked the counselor to deliver it to him. The counselor called my dh and said the boy had refused to hear it read or take it Into his hands, there is one person who could have made this boy at age 15 have some minimal contact with his dad....and that is the mom. Primary caregivers have tremendous influence over their kids. They should be using their power for good not evil. And yes I see that toward the end the mom was saying to the kids 'go see your father' but I am sure that was because she was finally shoved up a against a legal wall and I am sure the kids were told that. By that point they were too caught up in standing up for what they feel is right that they couldn't see a way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 The kids were taken to counseling. They refused to get out of the car. The kids could either be huge brats or there is something major underlying all of this. But there is an age at which they cannot be picked up and carried into appointments etc. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinsomeCreek Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Yes. Of course there's much more to this story and extraordinary situations can call for extraordinary solutions. I would think actions apeak louder than words in a case like this. The kids don't want to hear anything their dad has to say. But there is value in seeing proof that he actually cares. They can sit in the car and he can sit outside of the car. It seems to me that doing that once a week would improve their relationship far more than locking up the kids away from their mom and each other. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinsomeCreek Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 This is still bothering me. I suppose I could see my own kids caught up in some kind of mess like this and getting completely traumatized. These are academically gifted kids. The oldest deferred acceptance to a math program at Stanford to wait until his sibling could go too. They are probably extremely sensitive, especially to justice. I suspect this case is very close to home for this judge. The only other explanation is that she abuses power and is verbally abusive on a regular basis. Someone like that should not be in a position of power. She insults the kids, not just by comparing them to Manson's cult, but also by telling the oldest (paraphrasing) that she hears he's smart but doubts it. She cuts him off when he is clearly trying to understand what is happening. It's incredibly painful to read. The 'kid' is 15. There is a petition to remove the judge from office. Maybe it is time for her to give up power like her husband did. These kids deserve a fresh start with the legal system that does not include her, at the very least. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/remove-judge-lisa-o-gorcyca-from-office 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I cannot believe this. Sigh. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-love-wisdom/201511/the-king-solomon-test-would-have-worked "Though the mother is still under a gag order, we see, from public documents, that now the father's attorney is requesting that the siblings no longer be in his care. They are not going to be returned to their home, however. He wants them to be separated from each other. He wants one be sent to foster care. It is not clear which one. He wants one be sent to a wilderness camp. And one he would keep." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthwestMom Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 This situation is DEMENTED. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinivanMom Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I feel sick. If I had to make a guess, I would say that it is probably 15-yr-old son L who the father wants to send to "wilderness camp". The open hostility repeatedly shown in court toward L by the judge, the GAL, and dad's lawyer (on behalf of dad) are shocking. For those that don't know, L was supposed to attend a prestigious math camp at Stanford last summer; he was unable to due to Judge Gorcyca sentencing him to juvie. If you understand that, then all of the judge's insults on the court transcripts about L's high IQ and having to finish high school in juvie make a lot more sense. The judge and the dad have been trying to punish him by derailing his academic record and ruining his college chances. I assume "wilderness camp" is a euphemism for those abusive reform camps that Dateline is always doing exposes on. That makes sense . . . let's send a high-IQ, honor student, whose only crime is standing up in court to testify that he saw his father hit his mother, to a hard-labor camp for juvenile delinquents. I can just image the judge and the dad thinking, Let's see L try to get into Stanford with that on his high school record. It is so evil, that it is truly beyond belief! It's a toss-up as to which of the younger children the father wants to keep and which one he wants to throw away into foster care. In reading the transcript from the summer hearing, it was the 10-yr-old daughter who was meeker and said she was willing to have lunch with her father. The 11-yr-old son still refused to have lunch with dad after Judge Gorcyca forced him to read that apology aloud. So maybe it's the daughter that dad wants to keep, and the son is being tossed into foster care? Any parent who would rather his children be placed in foster care or in "wilderness camp" than be returned to the other parent . . . is not a good parent. Any parent who tries to punish his children by separating them from each other, having them sentenced to juvie until age 18, or having them sent to "wilderness camp" . . . is not a good parent. Here's an idea dad, if you don't want the kids anymore, give them back to their non-abusive mother. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinivanMom Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Umsami, do you know if this new legal action is being covered yet in the local Detroit news? I can't seem to find any other stories about it. And how did the Psychology Today columnist find out? Is this just more leaks in spite of the gag order? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Umsami, do you know if this new legal action is being covered yet in the local Detroit news? I can't seem to find any other stories about it. And how did the Psychology Today columnist find out? Is this just more leaks in spite of the gag order? I couldn't find it in the Detroit papers either, but did see it on a Facebook page to support the kids. I think the papers that have been filed are public, but the news orgs may not know about it. They were talking about some incident about protestors at the school recently (could be supporters, not sure) and how it threatened the one place where the kids feel safe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinivanMom Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I couldn't find it in the Detroit papers either, but did see it on a Facebook page to support the kids. I think the papers that have been filed are public, but the news orgs may not know about it. They were talking about some incident about protestors at the school recently (could be supporters, not sure) and how it threatened the one place where the kids feel safe. Were they talking about the incident where a plane flew over the kids' school with a banner? I hope this new action by dad's lawyer gets picked up by the national media before Gorcyca has a chance to rule. My understanding is that the Michigan court of appeals is supposed to hear the request to have Judge Gorcyca removed now that Judge Nanci Grant has recused herself. I realize the court system moves at a glacial pace, but I think this is enough of an emergency situation that the appeals court ought to be able to hear it immediately. But I realize that just because that would be the right/moral thing, doesn't mean that it's possible legally. My fear is that only another viral news story with the accompanying international outrage may be enough to get the Michigan courts to do something. If dad requesting the boys be dumped into foster care and "wilderness camp" isn't enough to do it, then I don't know what will. I would hate to see the boys actually have to spend time in those settings, but maybe that will finally get someone to step in on behalf of the children. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitten18 Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I cannot believe this. Sigh. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-love-wisdom/201511/the-king-solomon-test-would-have-worked "Though the mother is still under a gag order, we see, from public documents, that now the father's attorney is requesting that the siblings no longer be in his care. They are not going to be returned to their home, however. He wants them to be separated from each other. He wants one be sent to foster care. It is not clear which one. He wants one be sent to a wilderness camp. And one he would keep." I cannot stay away from this story but it literally makes me sick to my stomach. :crying: :crying: :crying: These are truly awful, awful people. :mad: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I can't get over how evil this is. Someone go rescue those children. Good grief. It's Kafkaesque in its horror. How are Michigan judges (it's MI, right?) removed? What can practically be done? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 I'm wondering if the father is meaning to have two of the kids in wilderness camp/foster care temporarily, just for the sake of splitting them up, and then later take them back? Of course, it seems like there would be easier ways to deal with that... e.g. two different boarding schools (given the guy can afford that). Total mess anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 Some of those "wilderness camps" are downright horrible. I seem to remember several years ago when a kid died at one of them after mistreatment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted November 15, 2015 Share Posted November 15, 2015 None of this makes any sense... the father technically has custody but he WANTS them in juvie? And he refuses to come and take them - he's just out of the country all the time? Nuts. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinivanMom Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I can't get over how evil this is. Someone go rescue those children. Good grief. It's Kafkaesque in its horror. How are Michigan judges (it's MI, right?) removed? What can practically be done? This case is so disturbing that it is beyond words. My understanding of the process is this: -Maya (the mom) requests that Judge Lisa Gorcyca be removed after dad was give sole custody without an evidentiary hearing. (Sept) -Judge Gorcyca then gets to rule that she will not recuse herself. (early Oct) -Maya then appeals to the Chief Judge of the Oakland County Family Court system (Nanci Grant) requesting that she remove Judge Gorcyca. (mid Oct) -Judge Nanci Grant recuses herself from hearing the motion. (late Oct) -The appeal then moves up the line to the Michigan Court of Appeals. (still not scheduled?) At this point it is in process, but it's a long, drawn-out process and there's still no guarantee that Judge Gorcyca will ever be removed from the case. In the meantime, the kids are still not being protected. They spent more than two weeks in juvie (where they were ordered to be kept separate from one another), then were moved to Jewish summer camp, then were moved to a hotel for intensive reunification with dad and an unlicensed therapist, then were placed in dad's care for 90 days of additional "reunification therapy". The court filings state that the therapy has not gone well, the kids' conditions have deteriorated, and apparently dad keeps changing therapists cause he doesn't like the conclusions of the court-appointed ones. So now he wants to dump two of them into foster care and "wilderness camp" . . . in the middle of the freaking school year! Where are the grown-ups? Where are the checks & balances to prevent these kinds of abuses from occurring in the first place?! Kafkaesque is right. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinivanMom Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I'm wondering if the father is meaning to have two of the kids in wilderness camp/foster care temporarily, just for the sake of splitting them up, and then later take them back? Of course, it seems like there would be easier ways to deal with that... e.g. two different boarding schools (given the guy can afford that). Total mess anyway. Boarding school wouldn't serve the secondary purpose of punishing the 15-yr-old son by ruining his high school academic record. Missing the rest of his sophomore year to attend "wilderness camp" is a much more effective punishment. And yes, kids have died in these "wilderness camps". 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted November 16, 2015 Share Posted November 16, 2015 I would just like to, as an embarrassed citizen of Michigan, beg all of you to not judge out entire judicial system by this loon from Oakland County. For what it is worth, unfortunately both Oakland and Macomb county family courts have a very negative reputation. This whole case makes my brain spasm. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I'm originally from Oakland County.... :blush: which could be why I keep following. I really can't believe all that has taken place. I want to scream at the judge (but then, of course, I'd be sent to jail.) Here's another article.... the more I read about this, the more crazy I go. http://www.commdiginews.com/life/tsimhoni-custody-case-deteriorates-52145/ "In November, there have been a series of court filings by the father’s legal team, the mother’s legal team, and a guardian ad litem, Bill Lansat, which, taken together, paint a shocking picture. The filings includes 1) the father wanting to keep the children from contacting their mother for at least another 90 days, 2) to then split the children 3) the children alerting school personnel that their father continues to be violent, 4) the father is subscribing to a discredited theory created by an individual who made several pro-pedophile statements, and 5) all three of the children’s grades and mental health deteriorating." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abba12 Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 This is just..... it's happening in full public view and NOTHING IS STOPPING IT! Where's child services? They're awfully fast to rip a child away from a single mum who hasn't quite got housecleaning figured out yet (friends experience) but they can't remove children from THIS?! I wish there was a way to contact those kids and let them know some non-crazy adults are watching on in horror and praying someone who has power fixes this soon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 I just can't believe it. Shocking is right. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinE Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I cannot believe this. Sigh. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-love-wisdom/201511/the-king-solomon-test-would-have-worked "Though the mother is still under a gag order, we see, from public documents, that now the father's attorney is requesting that the siblings no longer be in his care. They are not going to be returned to their home, however. He wants them to be separated from each other. He wants one be sent to foster care. It is not clear which one. He wants one be sent to a wilderness camp. And one he would keep." No wonder the kids don't want to see him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 This makes me sick. As for CPS, their hands are tied. They cannot over rule a judge. They do not have that level of authority. Appalling and twisted are two words that come to mind and they do not scratch the surface of how wrong this is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinE Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 When his kids are all eighteen, they will leave him and never want to see him again. If he can, I hope he enjoys the next decade with his youngest. He's destroyed any hopes of salvaging a loving, healthy relationship. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 One of the reasons I liked the Psychology Today piece about it is that it points out that basically this can happen to anyone because our family court system is completely messed up. Like, you think the regular court system is a mess? Ha, family court is an even bigger cluster(insert bad word). I can only assume that one of the reasons this case is receiving attention is that the judge was particularly crazy but also, perhaps more importantly, the family is rich and connected. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinivanMom Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 One of the reasons I liked the Psychology Today piece about it is that it points out that basically this can happen to anyone because our family court system is completely messed up. Like, you think the regular court system is a mess? Ha, family court is an even bigger cluster(insert bad word). I can only assume that one of the reasons this case is receiving attention is that the judge was particularly crazy but also, perhaps more importantly, the family is rich and connected. To be fair, there was a big international custody trial at the Hague back at the time they originally divorced after dad falsely accused mom of kidnapping the children. So this case has been drawing international coverage for some time, although it has always had more coverage in Israel and Europe than here in the states. Though money is obviously a factor, because it takes a lot of money to hire attorneys in three countries. At one point early on, dad had filings at the International Court, in the Israeli civil courts, and in the Israeli religious court (the rabbinical court?), while fighting off mom's original divorce filing back home in Michigan. That takes some serious $$$$$. I'm not sure things could have dragged on this long or gone so poorly for the children if dad didn't have such deep pockets. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinivanMom Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I am just hoping that the kids' story goes viral again. International outrage is the best thing that could possibly happen for these kids right now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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