Anyone see this story?

[Scarlett]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/michigan-judge-detains-kids-refusing-lunch-father-32334743

 

A judge throws three kids in juvenile because they refuse to see their dad.

[AnnE-girl]

I saw that earlier today. Even if the mother is guilty of parental alienation, sending the kids to detention has to be way more damaging than their lack of relationship with the dad. My heart breaks for those poor kids.

[Catwoman]

Good heavens. :eek:

 

Does anyone know the details of the case?

 

I think it is ridiculous and horrible that the children are being treated like criminals.

[umsami]

I grew up in Oakland County.  Mom (in the case) is a physician.  Dad is a GM executive.  The kids grew up in Bloomfield Hills, which is a very wealthy area.  They are now in a juvenile place in Pontiac.  It's got to be very traumatic.  

 

I am baffled by the judge's reaction.  I don't care how bad the kids are, if you think one parent is causing alienation, you punish the parent, not a 9, 10, and 15 year old.  She said they can stay there until they're 18.  WTF.   She also said they can't have any contact with each other. These kids are not criminals.  

 

I strongly strongly suspect that the Dad has NPD.  There's no other excuse (IMHO) for his running off to Israel for weeks and leaving his kids to rot in jail....with no visitation (Mom was barred as well.)  I also don't think he's so wonderful (as the judge does)....because why did he have supervised visitation?  The judge talks about how wonderful he is and she can't understand why the kids don't see that.  NPD.  The 15 year old testified because he saw his Dad hit his Mom.  Judge says there's no court record.  Hello??? Most abusers don't have court records....and among the higher incomes, it's even less likely.

 

Reading the court transcript is very disturbing.  I think the judge should be removed.    

 

Stuff like this scares the crap out of me.

[Catwoman]

I agree that the judge should be removed. She sounds as though she is too personally and emotionally involved in the case and is punishing the children like she is an angry parent and not a supposedly-impartial officer of the court.

 

And is it just me, or wouldn't a good father have visited those kids the first day he was able to, and then insisted they be released from confinement? In my mind, only a truly horrible parent would want his children separated from each other and confined against their will for an indefinite period of time. Is that even a legal thing that the judge did? The kids committed no crime.

 

Maybe the mom did poison the kids' minds against their father... or maybe the father's behavior did it for her. Whatever the case, it is ludicrous that the kids are being held against their will when their mom is available to care for them.

[Scarlett]

It caught my attention because of my dss18 who has refused to see his father for 3 years. Dh is devastated by it. But no way he would want the kid in juvenile detention over it.

[Scarlett]

And how can that judge strip the mother of her parental rights that way? That seems insane. The story has broke nationally and I do not believe those kids will. Stay in juvenile detention for much longer.

[Rosie_0801]

If there are court orders that the kids are to see their father, the mother has to make sure it happens whether the kids want to or not. The only thing the mother can legally do is go back to court and cross her fingers. Or that's how it is here. Court ordered abuse happens.

[Scarlett]

If there are court orders that the kids are to see their father, the mother has to make sure it happens whether the kids want to or not. The only thing the mother can legally do is go back to court and cross her fingers. Or that's how it is here. Court ordered abuse happens.

It is the moms responsibility to make sure the kids see their dad....,but if that didn't happen should the kids be thrown in detention?

[Rosie_0801]

It is the moms responsibility to make sure the kids see their dad....,but if that didn't happen should the kids be thrown in detention?

 

Of course not.

 

What is the usual punishment for a custodial parent who doesn't facilitate visitation?

[Scarlett]

Of course not.

 

What is the usual punishment for a custodial parent who doesn't facilitate visitation?

None.

[MomatHWTK]

IMO, if the issue really was one of the mother behaving badly (alienation, etc.) then the children should be placed in foster care, not detention. 

[Rosie_0801]

None.

 

Unless they are taken to court over it?

 

Or do you mean none, full stop. The court says "that's naughty, have a nice day?"

[Scarlett]

Unless they are taken to court over it?

 

Or do you mean none, full stop. The court says "that's naughty, have a nice day?"

Pretty much. It has to be pretty egregious before the mom suffers consequences.

[zoobie]

That judge is unhinged from the transcripts. I hope the *kids* have an attorney and guardian ad litem. No one in this country should be incarcerated for not visiting his parent. Absolute, unconstitutional insanity. On top of the huge civil liberty issues, what a waste of taxpayer resources!

[MomatHWTK]

Yeah, that is one very public on the record hissy fit.  :(

[Scarlett]

That judge is unhinged from the transcripts. I hope the *kids* have an attorney and guardian ad litem. No one in this country should be incarcerated for not visiting his parent. Absolute, unconstitutional insanity. On top of the huge civil liberty issues, what a waste of taxpayer resources!

The thing is.....children have the RIGHT to a relationship with both parents. It is very difficult to sever a parent child relationship. People constantly think if a kid is old enough he should be allowed to not see a parent if he chooses. Not true. Not true legally. In Reality it happens all of the time and the parent on the outs doesn't challenge it.

[Scarlett]

But I agree the judge is unhinged.

[zoobie]

The thing is.....children have the RIGHT to a relationship with both parents. It is very difficult to sever a parent child relationship. People constantly think if a kid is old enough he should be allowed to not see a parent if he chooses. Not true. Not true legally. In Reality it happens all of the time and the parent on the outs doesn't challenge it.

Yes and no. In GA, the law is that a child has a right to choose the parent with whom he resides at age 14. It's a presumptive choice. The judge can overrule him if she decides it's not in his best interest, but that takes a court challenge. Rarely is the law focused on the child's rights. He's usually treated more like property. The parents have rights. I wonder how many parents this whackadoodle judge has thrown in jail for skipping visitation? Probably zero. Those children should not be in juvenile detention! It's often worse than adult jail. Was there a case brought against them by the DA? Being incarcerated without charges or adjudication is totally abusive. The judge and these parents should all be sent there for some tough love.

[Rosie_0801]

Here it is children who have rights and parents who have responsibilities.

 

In practice, it is nothing of the kind.

[Scarlett]

Yes and no. In GA, the law is that a child has a right to choose the parent with whom he resides at age 14. It's a presumptive choice. The judge can overrule him if she decides it's not in his best interest, but that takes a court challenge. Rarely is the law focused on the child's rights. He's usually treated more like property. The parents have rights. I wonder how many parents this whackadoodle judge has thrown in jail for skipping visitation? Probably zero. Those children should not be in juvenile detention! It's often worse than adult jail. Was there a case brought against them by the DA? Being incarcerated without charges or adjudication is totally abusive. The judge and these parents should all be sent there for some tough love.

Wait.. See you just went from visitation to custody. Yes in most states a child over about age 12 can decide which parent he will live with, absent neglect or abuse. That is a totally separate thing from visitation. Visitation is not suspended lightly. So a child can choose which parent you want to live with but you cannot say you no longer want to have visitation with the other parent.

[Jean in Newcastle]

That judge is unhinged from the transcripts. I hope the *kids* have an attorney and guardian ad litem. No one in this country should be incarcerated for not visiting his parent. Absolute, unconstitutional insanity. On top of the huge civil liberty issues, what a waste of taxpayer resources!

Yes, I hope this.  And I hope that it is appealed and the judge's actions are reviewed and that there are consequences levied against the judge.  

[Rosie_0801]

Wait.. See you just went from visitation to custody. Yes in most states a child over about age 12 can decide which parent he will live with, absent neglect or abuse. That is a totally separate thing from visitation. Visitation is not suspended lightly. So a child can choose which parent you want to live with but you cannot say you no longer want to have visitation with the other parent.

 

Doesn't that get tricky? Most abuse is legal.

 

 

Here children over a certain age are allowed to choose whether or not they'll have visitation. But if there are visitation orders in place, the parents have to go back to court to get it changed.

[Reflections]

This story in unreal.  She fawns all over the dad and puts the children in jail?????   Fine the MOM.  Incarcerate the MOM.  Sanction the MOM.  But NO, she JAILS the children????  

 

Makes me want to the follow the money. The love interest. The campaign finance log. Her Christmas gift list. 

 

Something smells so wrong here.

 

I've never heard of children being incarcerated because of a parent's actions in custody/visitation dispute.  If someone knows otherwise, please post it - I'm very interested in some sort of past precedent for this.

[Scarlett]

Doesn't that get tricky? Most abuse is legal.

 

 

Here children over a certain age are allowed to choose whether or not they'll have visitation. But if there are visitation orders in place, the parents have to go back to court to get it changed.

Here visitation is not suspended until age 18.

[Scarlett]

This story in unreal. She fawns all over the dad and puts the children in jail????? Fine the MOM. Incarcerate the MOM. Sanction the MOM. But NO, she JAILS the children????

 

Makes me want to the follow the money. The love interest. The campaign finance log. Her Christmas gift list.

 

Something smells so wrong here.

 

I've never heard of children being incarcerated because of a parent's actions in custody/visitation dispute. If someone knows otherwise, please post it - I'm very interested in some sort of past precedent for this.

Exactly

[zoobie]

Wait.. See you just went from visitation to custody. Yes in most states a child over about age 12 can decide which parent he will live with, absent neglect or abuse. That is a totally separate thing from visitation. Visitation is not suspended lightly. So a child can choose which parent you want to live with but you cannot say you no longer want to have visitation with the other parent.

They're interrelated. Most have "reasonable visitation" verbiage. What's reasonable? What parent would rather have his child in jail than non get visited?

 

If a kid refuses to go, normally the custodial parent would be charged with contempt. That doesn't make any sense to me either unless the CP is interfering with visitation. Dad shows up and kids aren't there because mom has taken them off someplace? That's contemptuous. Dad shows up, Mom has kid's bags packed, hasn't been filling the child's head with lies, and kid refuses to get in the car? That should not be on Mom.

 

FWIW, I began refusing overnight visitation with my mother when she hooked up with a drug addicted creep when I was 13. I told her that I was not going to be spending the night at their apartment. She chose not to change her lifestyle. I guess she could've gone to court and tried to have my dad held in contempt, but she had no money and didn't care. Usually there's a reason the child doesn't want to visit, and a good parent will try to figure it out rather than have their children or the custodial parent thrown in jail or fined.

[kitten18]

Wow, I feel sick to my stomach after reading that. WTH?

[Scarlett]

They're interrelated. Most have "reasonable visitation" verbiage. What's reasonable? What parent would rather have his child in jail than non get visited?

 

Usually there's a reason the child doesn't want to visit, and a good parent will try to figure it out rather than have their children or the custodial parent thrown in jail or fined.

Most custody papers have specific visitation. But my point is a 12 year old can go to court and decide which parent he wants to live with but he cannot go to court and stop all visitation.

 

If a kid doesn't want to go to visitation it is very stressful. That is how my son is. He is 15 and he hates going. Sure there are reasons, but the reasons are not good enough and he has to go if his dad says so. I MAKE him go. If a CP can't make their teen do something that means she can't control her child. More likely doesn't want to.

 

I dont know a lot about this story, but I see nothing to indicate the father would rather have his kids in juvenile lock up than allow them to sever ties with him. He went to court to enforce his legal visitation. I doubt he ever imagined the judge would go so nuts.

[Mama Geek]

25 years ago I went a long time without seeing my dad.  He berated me and said lots of horrible things about my mom after they separated.  I can still remember calling my mom on Christmas Eve in tears at the age of 13 to come pick me up.  I would have been devastated if a judge pulled me out of my mom's home because of it.  I am not saying my mom was an angel, just that my father did it on his own.

 

That said, there is a good chance that the father is the reason that the kids don't want to go with him.

[Carrie12345]

I can't even imagine.

Thank goodness neither of my parents forced me to spend time with a crappy human being.

[Scarlett]

I can't even imagine.

Thank goodness neither of my parents forced me to spend time with a crappy human being.

Well I am glad you didn't have that experience either. But even if a parent is crappy, the law says they still have to see them. Even murderers in jail have visitation with their children. Rarely are all ties legally cut.

[Scarlett]

25 years ago I went a long time without seeing my dad. He berated me and said lots of horrible things about my mom after they separated. I can still remember calling my mom on Christmas Eve in tears at the age of 13 to come pick me up. I would have been devastated if a judge pulled me out of my mom's home because of it. I am not saying my mom was an angel, just that my father did it on his own.

 

That said, there is a good chance that the father is the reason that the kids don't want to go with him.

Maybe. Maybe not. My DH's son cut all contact with dh at age 15. Dh can't see him, talk to him, text him, facebook him....nothing. Dh did nothing deserving of that treatment. It has been devastating to dh. The boy's mother told dh she was not going to make him go.

[barnwife]

 If a CP can't make their teen do something that means she can't control her child. More likely doesn't want to.

 

I have to say something about this. This seems quite presumptive. I mean, I know a 17 yo boy who is easily 6'5 and big. If his parents weren't together, and mom was supposed to make him go visit dad, how should she do so if he doesn't want to? I mean, there's no way his teeny, tiny mom could physically pick him up and buckle him in the car like I do my 2 yo.

 

Obviously, I am not in this situation. But something about what you said really rubs me the wrong way. Especially the part about a parent in such a situation not wanting too. I can easily imagine quite a few scenarios in which a CP would be trying to do the right thing, and an almost adult child refusing. 

 

Back on topic, I agree with the many pp who think it is ridiculous to punish the children.

[Scarlett]

I have to say something about this. This seems quite presumptive. I mean, I know a 17 yo boy who is easily 6'5 and big. If his parents weren't together, and mom was supposed to make him go visit dad, how should she do so if he doesn't want to? I mean, there's no way his teeny, tiny mom could physically pick him up and buckle him in the car like I do my 2 yo.

 

Obviously, I am not in this situation. But something about what you said really rubs me the wrong way. Especially the part about a parent in such a situation not wanting too. I can easily imagine quite a few scenarios in which a CP would be trying to do the right thing, and an almost adult child refusing.

 

Back on topic, I agree with the many pp who think it is ridiculous to punish the children.

I don't think the size of the child has anything to do with it. If the mom can't make the teen do something she has lost control of the kid. Which I understand happens all of the time with teens.

 

That said there is a big difference between a 17 year old refusing and a 15 yo refusing. Although I do remember a story about a 17 yo boy who was told by a judge if he kept refusing to go see his dad the judge would put the boy in jail. I don't remember if the kid gave in or what.

[Rosie_0801]

I can understand if one parent does not wish to force their child to visit with their abuser.

 

Stiff petunias though. They still have to.

[kiwik]

I can aee no reaspn why a child older than 13 should be forced to see someone and i can't imagine trying to insist a 17 year old. The exception being court ordered stuff. I can also not think of any legal way to make a teenager do somwthing they have decided not to do. Your laws are different though. I could legally take long term action to make it easier for him to do it but i couldn't make him get in the car without risking an assault charge.

 

I do wonder if the story is incomplete though.

[Scarlett]

I can aee no reaspn why a child older than 13 should be forced to see someone and i can't imagine trying to insist a 17 year old. The exception being court ordered stuff. I can also not think of any legal way to make a teenager do somwthing they have decided not to do. Your laws are different though. I could legally take long term action to make it easier for him to do it but i couldn't make him get in the car without risking an assault charge.

 

I do wonder if the story is incomplete though.

Child custody and visitation IS court orders.

 

If your 13 year decided she/he never wanted to see you again you would be ok with that?

[ErinE]

I don't think the size of the child has anything to do with it. If the mom can't make the teen do something she has lost control of the kid. Which I understand happens all of the time with teens.

 

That said there is a big difference between a 17 year old refusing and a 15 yo refusing. Although I do remember a story about a 17 yo boy who was told by a judge if he kept refusing to go see his dad the judge would put the boy in jail. I don't remember if the kid gave in or what.

I don't "control" my kids and none of them are teenagers. I encourage good behavior, but if I couldn't force my toddlers to do something, there's no way I can force a teen.

 

I think a 15-year old is capable of deciding whether he wants to see his parent. Part of being a parent is loving the child, even when he is unloving towards you, and hoping he will eventually come around. He may not have considered all the consequences, but that's part of growing up.

 

I'm curious as to what caused the confrontation. Did the dad seek to force visitation and the kids were refusing to see him? This is a bit like Solomon and the baby. Does the dad enforce his visitation rights and inflict more emotional harm on his kids? Or does he keep trying to be a good dad and respect their choices?

 

Plus, the dad going on a business trip right after his kids were locked away - what a piece of work.

[Scarlett]

I don't "control" my kids and none of them are teenagers. I encourage good behavior, but if I couldn't force my toddlers to do something, there's no way I can force a teen.

 

I think a 15-year old is capable of deciding whether he wants to see his parent. Part of being a parent is loving the child, even when he is unloving towards you, and hoping he will eventually come around. He may not have considered all the consequences, but that's part of growing up.

 

I'm curious as to what caused the confrontation. Did the dad seek to force visitation and the kids were refusing to see him? This is a bit like Solomon and the baby. Does the dad enforce his visitation rights and inflict more emotional harm on his kids? Or does he keep trying to be a good dad and respect their choices?

 

Plus, the dad going on a business trip right after his kids were locked away - what a piece of work.

I can't see where the dad left and went to Israel but several people have mentioned it so I just must have missed it.

 

I don't know what to say about you not controlling your kids. I just can't wrap my head around thinking kids get to decide what they will do.

 

15 year olds aren't mature enough to make their own decisions especially about something as Important as a relationship with their parents. And yes part of being a loving parent is loving your kids even when they dont love you back. But I disagree that allowing a kid to sever all ties is being a loving parent.

[Rosie_0801]

I can't see how forcing a person to have a relationship with you does either of you any good. It seems to me they will only leave as soon as they are able to, and the more pressure they felt, the longer it will be before they come back.

[Carrie12345]

There's a lot of gray in between "not going to visitation" and "cutting all ties".  Respect for my feelings and wishes is what earned my parent repeated chances.  While that never worked out long-term, fueling resentment certainly wouldn't have helped.

 

Minors may not be fully brain-grown, but they're real human beings with genuine feelings and ideas which, frankly, should come way before adults'.

[Farrar]

When I read this, I kept thinking that it sounded like maybe both parents were abusers just in very different ways... Maybe there was an argument for taking the kids away temporarily... Maybe. But to foster care, not to &$@* detention. I agree with everyone who has said the judge should be suspended over that and the transcript proves it.

[TeenagerMom]

http://everything-pr.com/omer-tsimhoni-maya-eibschitz-legal-case/258402/

 

Definitely more the story. Read the court filing on here. Multiple therapists and GAL are in agreement that Mom has been the culprit in alienation. The kids need therapy. The Mom is in contempt and Dad lives out of the country. The kids will get the counseling they NEED in the facility. The children's attorneys did not object to the orders of the judge which is telling.

[Farrar]

http://everything-pr.com/omer-tsimhoni-maya-eibschitz-legal-case/258402/

 

Definitely more the story. Read the court filing on here. Multiple therapists and GAL are in agreement that Mom has been the culprit in alienation. The kids need therapy. The Mom is in contempt and Dad lives out of the country. The kids will get the counseling they NEED in the facility. The children's attorneys did not object to the orders of the judge which is telling.

 

So what's the facility they're in? Is it juvenile detention like the initial reports said or is it a group home with counseling like that makes it sound like?

[Scarlett]

There's a lot of gray in between "not going to visitation" and "cutting all ties". Respect for my feelings and wishes is what earned my parent repeated chances. While that never worked out long-term, fueling resentment certainly wouldn't have helped.

 

Minors may not be fully brain-grown, but they're real human beings with genuine feelings and ideas which, frankly, should come way before adults'.

I totally agree. I think a NCP who insists on all visitations against the wishes of the child is setting up a situation which will only breed resentment. But my understanding is that these kids refuse to see their father at all. And in my Dss' case he has also severed all ties.

[Scarlett]

I can't see how forcing a person to have a relationship with you does either of you any good. It seems to me they will only leave as soon as they are able to, and the more pressure they felt, the longer it will be before they come back.

I think there is some truth to this Rosie, but do you think a 15 yo should get to decide to never see his father again?

[ErinE]

http://everything-pr.com/omer-tsimhoni-maya-eibschitz-legal-case/258402/

 

Definitely more the story. Read the court filing on here. Multiple therapists and GAL are in agreement that Mom has been the culprit in alienation. The kids need therapy. The Mom is in contempt and Dad lives out of the country. The kids will get the counseling they NEED in the facility. The children's attorneys did not object to the orders of the judge which is telling.

The dad stated he lived in Michigan in the Observer interview. In the transcript, the children's attorneys reference having just been assigned (and also talk about appointments later in the day - obviously focused on the case at hand /sarcasm).

 

At first, I wondered if the mother was being manipulative then after further thought, realized it doesn't matter in terms of the children's treatment by the court.

 

If the kids need therapy, require it. If the mother is inflicting harm, remove the children from her care. The judge talks about cells and people watching the children go to the bathroom. She claims they can stay in custody until 18. That is NOT appropriate.

[TeenagerMom]

So what's the facility they're in? Is it juvenile detention like the initial reports said or is it a group home with counseling like that makes it sound like?

https://www.oakgov.com/village

 

 

Mandy's Place was mentioned by the Judge or one of the attorneys in the transcript.

https://www.oakgov.com/village/pages/program_service/default.aspx

[Scarlett]

http://everything-pr.com/omer-tsimhoni-maya-eibschitz-legal-case/258402/

 

Definitely more the story. Read the court filing on here. Multiple therapists and GAL are in agreement that Mom has been the culprit in alienation. The kids need therapy. The Mom is in contempt and Dad lives out of the country. The kids will get the counseling they NEED in the facility. The children's attorneys did not object to the orders of the judge which is telling.

I am pretty sure the dad lives in MI. They moved to Israel while still married and when she came back to Michigan he followed her so he could be near his children.