Anyone see this story?

[Scarlett]

The dad stated he lived in Michigan in the Observer interview. In the transcript, the children's attorneys reference having just been assigned (and also talk about appointments later in the day - obviously focused on the case at hand /sarcasm).

 

At first, I wondered if the mother was being manipulative then after further thought, realized it doesn't matter in terms of the children's treatment by the court.

 

If the kids need therapy, require it. If the mother is inflicting harm, remove the children from her care. The judge talks about cells and people watching the children go to the bathroom. She claims they can stay in custody until 18. That is NOT appropriate.

Yes. I can think of no worse option for these kids than to be put in lock up. If the mother is as bad as they are saying (and from the court documents she Has Ignored many court orders) then why didn't the judge give custody to the father? Put them in foster care and give both parents supervised visitation? Something besides berating them in court and locking them up.

[Farrar]

I still don't understand why foster care plus counseling and supervised visits wasn't a better option if they needed to be removed. And I really, really don't think even if they did need to be removed that it justifies the judge's words and attitude toward them. If anything, it makes it much worse. He's saying they've been abused essentially so... what, he berates them and threatens them because they were abused? That makes no sense.

[Rosie_0801]

I think there is some truth to this Rosie, but do you think a 15 yo should get to decide to never see his father again?

 

Being familiar with issues of abuse and court ordered trauma, I have to say yes.

 

I would prefer to say only after a period of family counselling, but one can't necessarily find a good counsellor.

 

 

Do you think a child should get to decide they won't hug or kiss their relatives? To me it is pretty much the same thing. I don't think we should order away another person's boundaries. That's abusive.

[Scarlett]

I still don't understand why foster care plus counseling and supervised visits wasn't a better option if they needed to be removed. And I really, really don't think even if they did need to be removed that it justifies the judge's words and attitude toward them. If anything, it makes it much worse. He's saying they've been abused essentially so... what, he berates them and threatens them because they were abused? That makes no sense.

As a side note the judge is female. But I agree...threatening the kids was way out of line.

[Farrar]

Being familiar with issues of abuse and court ordered trauma, I have to say yes.

 

I would prefer to say only after a period of family counselling, but one can't necessarily find a good counsellor.

 

 

Do you think a child should get to decide they won't hug or kiss their relatives? To me it is pretty much the same thing. I don't think we should order away another person's boundaries. That's abusive.

:iagree:

 

On the other hand, I'm not sure what you do when one parent is essentially brainwashing the children against the other parent.

[Scarlett]

Being familiar with issues of abuse and court ordered trauma, I have to say yes.

 

I would prefer to say only after a period of family counselling, but one can't necessarily find a good counsellor.

 

 

Do you think a child should get to decide they won't hug or kiss their relatives? To me it is pretty much the same thing. I don't think we should order away another person's boundaries. That's abusive.

There is no evidence at all this father is abusive.

[Rosie_0801]

 

On the other hand, I'm not sure what you do when one parent is essentially brainwashing the children against the other parent.

 

I'm not sure what you do with the Family Court, full stop.

 

There are books and stuff on parental alienation, but I haven't had cause to read them yet.

[AnnE-girl]

There is no evidence at all this father is abusive.

Except that the oldest son said he saw the dad hit the mom. The judge insists that it was in his head, but she hardly seems impartial from the transcript.

[Farrar]

By the way, there was a great piece in Brainchild last month about a woman who was estranged from her kids because the father had brainwashed them to hate her. The piece was about their reunion. It's apparently not online yet, but an older piece by the author was:

http://www.brainchildmag.com/2014/12/alienated/

[Farrar]

There is no evidence at all this father is abusive.

 

I think for older teens, it doesn't matter if the father was abusive or not. My parents were divorced. My father was not abusive. But he also... I'll just say he did not do right by me for a long time. And for a time I refused to see him. My mother was definitely not alienating me against him. I think I should have had that right.

 

Thank goodness he didn't press it though. And our relationship has been healed for a long time.

 

This situation seems completely different though.

[Scarlett]

Except that the oldest son said he saw the dad hit the mom. The judge insists that it was in his head, but she hardly seems impartial from the transcript.

Maybe he did hit her. He claims he did not. But even if he did that is nowhere close to a legal reason to sever ties with the father.

[Scarlett]

I think for older teens, it doesn't matter if the father was abusive or not. My parents were divorced. My father was not abusive. But he also... I'll just say he did not do right by me for a long time. And for a time I refused to see him. My mother was definitely not alienating me against him. I think I should have had that right.

 

Thank goodness he didn't press it though. And our relationship has been healed for a long time.

 

This situation seems completely different though.

You didn't see him at all? No contact at all?

 

My son would do that to his father if I allowed it.

[umsami]

http://everything-pr.com/omer-tsimhoni-maya-eibschitz-legal-case/258402/

 

Definitely more the story. Read the court filing on here. Multiple therapists and GAL are in agreement that Mom has been the culprit in alienation. The kids need therapy. The Mom is in contempt and Dad lives out of the country. The kids will get the counseling they NEED in the facility. The children's attorneys did not object to the orders of the judge which is telling.

 

This is a statement by the Dad's PR team....nothing more.  The document released at the bottom is his own lawyer's complaint.   I'm sure that the actual truth is in between the two....but the son clearly states that he doesn't want to talk to his Dad because he witnessed DV against his Mom.  I'm sorry, but that's a very valid reason.  Usually when kids don't want a relationship with a parent, there's a valid reason.  

 

If you read the actual transcript of what went down....it does not support these facts.   If you read what the Judge said to the kids....this was a punishment...nothing more.  The judge was upset that the eldest wouldn't speak to his Dad....and then the younger kids followed his lead.   It was not out of a "best interest of the kids."  She basically told them they can stay in Children's Village....not have any contact with each other....until they turn 18.  

 

Also if you read the transcript, they are trying to get the kids to agree with supervised visits with Dad.  Supervised do not happen if Dad is all super wonderful and fabulous.   The judge keeps telling the son that she's ordering him to have a "healthy relationship with his father."  That's insane.  

 

Dad says in his statement, "“The one incident that happened was five years ago I had a five-hour unsupervised visit. We were in a park and Maya was circling around the park the whole time, trying to sabotage the visit. Two hours into the visit, the children ended up in her car and she was trying to leave. I tried to prevent her from leaving because it was my time with the children. I was very careful not to do anything but she claimed that I pushed her. She screamed at the children, ‘Call 911! Call 911!’ The police showed up and Maya was screaming and the police confirmed that nothing happened. But in the children’s mind, that’s what happened.â€"

 

So...Dad had unsupervised visits, but after this he had supervised. (Obviously something happened to change that.) Also, I think it's interesting because he says "the children ended up in her car" (not how they got there...most likely voluntarily left.)   He also says "I was very careful not to do anything..."  Who says this??  A guy who is trying hard not to hurt his wife again.  Sorry, but I don't believe him.  Police can't confirm nothing happened.  They can't confirm whether or not he pushed her...and if the kids saw it, they would validate it.  What they'd say is that there are no visible injuries or something along those lines.  

 

The Judge says in the transcript "you may stay there until high school." (regarding Children's Village)

 

She says your Mom can't visit you...only your Dad and therapist anybody he chooses to bring in.    She talks to him about going to the bathroom in public at Children's Village.  

 

She then decides on Mandy's Place....which is a short-term group foster home at Children's Village...not designed for three years+...but it's also where they place kids before they can put them permanently in Children's Village.  It's not a place you want your kids to be.  Is it as bad as the judge tried to make out to the kids? Probably not (they don't go tot he bathroom in public.)  But is it going to help these kids? Help their relationship with either parent?  Nope.  https://www.oakgov.com/village/Pages/program_service/default.aspx

 

The judge is punishing the kids, not the Mom. Plain and simple.  Maybe because she doesn't feel there's enough to back up a change in custody? I don't know.   She even talks in the transcript about giving the father custody but then says the Mom would appeal.  (Even so....why does that matter? What is the real story with Dad that he requires supervised visitation?   And surely a change in custody is better than a group home.)  

 

 

Here's an article about law experts in Michigan talking about the judge's decision....all paint is VERY unusual and adding more damage to the kids and their relationship with their father.  http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/2015/07/09/experts-jailed-kids/29943451/

 

"

[umsami]

Maybe he did hit her. He claims he did not. But even if he did that is nowhere close to a legal reason to sever ties with the father.

 

I disagree 100%.  Domestic violence is a reason to sever ties.  It does affect custody and visitation.  It's also viewed by many as child abuse....just witnessing the DV.

 

Effects of witnessing DV:

http://www.unicef.org/media/files/BehindClosedDoors.pdf

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2002/1201/p2052.html

http://www.childwitnesstoviolence.org/facts--myths.html

 

Very very rarely is there a court record of the abuse.  In at least one of these cases, the police were called.  Were charges filed? Nope...but that is 100% normal.  Being convicted of DV is a very rare occurrence sadly for many many reasons.   And if the Mom had no visible injuries, the police often will tell her that there's nothing they can do....or discourage her from pressing charges. 

[Scarlett]

This is a statement by the Dad's PR team....nothing more. The document released at the bottom is his own lawyer's complaint. I'm sure that the actual truth is in between the two....but the son clearly states that he doesn't want to talk to his Dad because he witnessed DV against his Mom. I'm sorry, but that's a very valid reason. Usually when kids don't want a relationship with a parent, there's a valid reason.

 

If you read the actual transcript of what went down....it does not support these facts. If you read what the Judge said to the kids....this was a punishment...nothing more. The judge was upset that the eldest wouldn't speak to his Dad....and then the younger kids followed his lead. It was not out of a "best interest of the kids." She basically told them they can stay in Children's Village....not have any contact with each other....until they turn 18.

 

Also if you read the transcript, they are trying to get the kids to agree with supervised visits with Dad. Supervised do not happen if Dad is all super wonderful and fabulous. The judge keeps telling the son that she's ordering him to have a "healthy relationship with his father." That's insane.

 

Dad says in his statement, "“The one incident that happened was five years ago I had a five-hour unsupervised visit. We were in a park and Maya was circling around the park the whole time, trying to sabotage the visit. Two hours into the visit, the children ended up in her car and she was trying to leave. I tried to prevent her from leaving because it was my time with the children. I was very careful not to do anything but she claimed that I pushed her. She screamed at the children, ‘Call 911! Call 911!’ The police showed up and Maya was screaming and the police confirmed that nothing happened. But in the children’s mind, that’s what happened.â€"

 

So...Dad had unsupervised visits, but after this he had supervised. (Obviously something happened to change that.) Also, I think it's interesting because he says "the children ended up in her car" (not how they got there...most likely voluntarily left.) He also says "I was very careful not to do anything..." Who says this?? A guy who is trying hard not to hurt his wife again. Sorry, but I don't believe him. Police can't confirm nothing happened. They can't confirm whether or not he pushed her...and if the kids saw it, they would validate it. What they'd say is that there are no visible injuries or something along those lines.

 

The Judge says in the transcript "you may stay there until high school." (regarding Children's Village)

 

She says your Mom can't visit you...only your Dad and therapist anybody he chooses to bring in. She talks to him about going to the bathroom in public at Children's Village.

 

She then decides on Mandy's Place....which is a short-term group foster home at Children's Village...not designed for three years+...but it's also where they place kids before they can put them permanently in Children's Village. It's not a place you want your kids to be. Is it as bad as the judge tried to make out to the kids? Probably not (they don't go tot he bathroom in public.) But is it going to help these kids? Help their relationship with either parent? Nope. https://www.oakgov.com/village/Pages/program_service/default.aspx

 

The judge is punishing the kids, not the Mom. Plain and simple. Maybe because she doesn't feel there's enough to back up a change in custody? I don't know. She even talks in the transcript about giving the father custody but then says the Mom would appeal. (Even so....why does that matter? What is the real story with Dad that he requires supervised visitation? And surely a change in custody is better than a group home.)

 

 

Here's an article about law experts in Michigan talking about the judge's decision....all paint is VERY unusual and adding more damage to the kids and their relationship with their father. http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/2015/07/09/experts-jailed-kids/29943451/

 

"

If they kids refused to see him I can easily seeing him thinking supervised visits were better than nothing, maybe he agreed to supervised.

 

I can tell you from personal experience that sometimes there is absolutely NOT a valid reason that kids don't want to see the other parent.

[Scarlett]

I disagree 100%. Domestic violence is a reason to sever ties. It does affect custody and visitation. It's also viewed by many as child abuse....just witnessing the DV.

Very very rarely is there a court record of the abuse. In at least one of these cases, the police were called. Were charges filed? Nope...but that is 100% normal. Being convicted of DV is a very rare occurrence sadly for many many reasons. And if the Mom had no visible injuries, the police often will tell her that there's nothing they can do....or discourage her from pressing charges.

I agree that witnessing dv can affect custody and visitation, but it is Not a valid or legal reason to sever all ties. It takes a lot to lose parental rights.

[Scarlett]

I know a family who is attempting to adopt two little girls from the Foster system. They have had them almost 2 years. Both parents are in prison for 20 years. They can't adopt until the parents rights are severed. The dad signed his rights away but the mom has requested a jury trial which means more delays.

 

And yet this mom in MI can simple refuse to comply with court orders and the dad loses all contact with his kids.

 

The world is all kind of crazy.

[Rosie_0801]

There is no evidence at all this father is abusive.

 

I have said nothing about this particular father or whether he was abusive. 

 

You asked me my opinion about allowing children to cease contact with a parent. I did not realise you were asking me to restrict my opinions to this specific case.

[Rosie_0801]

Except that the oldest son said he saw the dad hit the mom. The judge insists that it was in his head, but she hardly seems impartial from the transcript.

 

DV against a spouse is irrelevant in child custody cases. (Here, anyway.)

[Scarlett]

I think this judge is way out of line, but Scarlett the issue is very complicated ( not talking about this case but all cases):

 

On one hand you might have a teen ( 13-17) that is just being a teen and doesn't want to see a parent.

On another hand, you might have a teen that is being brainwashed by the parent.

On the other hand, you might have a teen that doesn't wish to see a not so good parent.

On the other hand you might have a child that doesn't want to see an alcoholic parent or physically abusive parent.

 

The problem is that it is VERY difficult to distinguish between all of these. Plus, you have the issue that the "child" is becoming an adult so when do they HAVE to eat tomatoes or when can they as an adult say, "I just don't like tomatoes. I don't care if they are good for me. I hate the way they taste." Same thing with relationship with a parent. When do they get to decide, even if it is a mistake??

 

I don't have an answer. My mom remairred 6 months after I got married. The man had a K and a 4th grader and had custody because the mom was an alcoholic. At some point, ( not sure when because I wasn't really involved and was having my own family), they decided not to go over to her house anymore. She was still drinking. They call my mom, mom and appreciate her very much. They had some rough years. I have no idea how the legal stuff worked out but I'm glad they no longer visited their mom.

 

It is a complicated and tough situation .

I agreed it can be very complicated. And we can't know all there is to know. But I imagine the courts and counselors and attorneys and judge in this case DO know. It really isn't that difficult to get to the bottom of why a kid is refusing to see a parent. And I don't think it is that difficult to figure out which of the parents is the problem.

[Scarlett]

I have said nothing about this particular father or whether he was abusive.

 

You asked me my opinion about allowing children to cease contact with a parent. I did not realise you were asking me to restrict my opinions to this specific case.

I wasn't....I just thought that was what you were talking about.

[Jean in Newcastle]

So what's the facility they're in? Is it juvenile detention like the initial reports said or is it a group home with counseling like that makes it sound like?

The juvenile detention I worked at was basically a campus with multiple group homes, a school (where I worked) and other buildings for things like therapy etc.  We had kids there for fairly minor offenses on up to murder.  Supervision of course varied on the offense and the population was segregated by degree of supervision needed.  

[zoobie]

Most custody papers have specific visitation. But my point is a 12 year old can go to court and decide which parent he wants to live with but he cannot go to court and stop all visitation.

 

If a kid doesn't want to go to visitation it is very stressful. That is how my son is. He is 15 and he hates going. Sure there are reasons, but the reasons are not good enough and he has to go if his dad says so. I MAKE him go. If a CP can't make their teen do something that means she can't control her child. More likely doesn't want to.

 

I dont know a lot about this story, but I see nothing to indicate the father would rather have his kids in juvenile lock up than allow them to sever ties with him. He went to court to enforce his legal visitation. I doubt he ever imagined the judge would go so nuts.

Why is it the custodial parent's parenting failure? It seems like it's at least partially the visiting parent's failure. (Absent abusive brainwashing of course.) If my DH is unable to get one of our kids to do something, it's not my fault as a parent.

 

By the time I was 13-14, my CP was largely uninvolved with arranging visits with the other parent. They stepped out and let me forge my own relationship. If it had been forced, it would've damaged both relationships. I told my dad and stepmother I was uncomfortable going to my mom's new apartment with her new boyfriend/later husband (later ex-h, not surprisingly). They offered that she could come to our house on Sundays and they'd stay out after church. That, IMO, is good parenting. They provided a safe space for me at their discomfort, didn't get involved or make judgments, and they didn't negatively impact my opinions. My mother chose not to come and largely disappeared for several years. If they had disregarded my feelings and judgment on this issue and forced it, it would have been very detrimental to me as a person and to our relationship. They were otherwise very strict. Too strict, IMO, but making me go somewhere that I felt physically and mentally unsafe wouldn't have ended well for anyone. I really can't imagine what would have been required to "make" me go. No loss of privileges would have been sufficient. I suppose my dad could have physically put me in the vehicle, but it would have required an abusive level of physicality. I don't see how respecting a young adult's autonomy is a parenting failure in this regard.

 

Even if the parents live in the same house, one parent can't force the child to have a relationship with the other parent. They're individual bonds. If my kids don't want to interact with me, that's on me, not my husband, and vice versa. We could together try to come up with a new plan, but dumping one parent's failure on the other parent's lap and expecting her to clean up the mess is ludicrous.

[Scarlett]

Why is it the custodial parent's parenting failure? It seems like it's at least partially the visiting parent's failure. (Absent abusive brainwashing of course.) If my DH is unable to get one of our kids to do something, it's not my fault as a parent.

 

By the time I was 13-14, my CP was largely uninvolved with arranging visits with the other parent. They stepped out and let me forge my own relationship. If it had been forced, it would've damaged both relationships. I told my dad and stepmother I was uncomfortable going to my mom's new apartment with her new boyfriend/later husband (later ex-h, not surprisingly). They offered that she could come to our house on Sundays and they'd stay out after church. That, IMO, is good parenting. They provided a safe space for me at their discomfort, didn't get involved or make judgments, and they didn't negatively impact my opinions. My mother chose not to come and largely disappeared for several years. If they had disregarded my feelings and judgment on this issue and forced it, it would have been very detrimental to me as a person and to our relationship. They were otherwise very strict. Too strict, IMO, but making me go somewhere that I felt physically and mentally unsafe wouldn't have ended well for anyone. I really can't imagine what would have been required to "make" me go. No loss of privileges would have been sufficient. I suppose my dad could have physically put me in the vehicle, but it would have required an abusive level of physicality. I don't see how respecting a young adult's autonomy is a parenting failure in this regard.

 

Even if the parents live in the same house, one parent can't force the child to have a relationship with the other parent. They're individual bonds. If my kids don't want to interact with me, that's on me, not my husband, and vice versa. We could together try to come up with a new plan, but dumping one parent's failure on the other parent's lap and expecting her to clean up the mess is ludicrous.

A NCP cannot parent at all if he has no contact with his child. Sure teens have to make their own relationship with the NCP.....maybe they won't be close, maybe kid doesn't like the parent. But I do consider it a CPs responsibility to ensure at least some contact.

[ErinE]

I think for older teens, it doesn't matter if the father was abusive or not. My parents were divorced. My father was not abusive. But he also... I'll just say he did not do right by me for a long time. And for a time I refused to see him. My mother was definitely not alienating me against him. I think I should have had that right.

 

Thank goodness he didn't press it though. And our relationship has been healed for a long time.

 

This situation seems completely different though.

For me, one parent was certain the other was manipulating the children and causing the estrangement. The parent was insistent that the children and ex-spouse needed therapy.

 

In reality, it was the estranged parent's own behavior that was causing the distance. I'm glad I was an adult and could enforce boundaries.

 

I'm not certain what's going on with the parents in this story, but I'm still curious what led to the hearing. If my fifteen year old didn't want to see me, I can't see myself going to court to force him to play nice. I can see asking for therapy, joint and separate.

[Farrar]

You didn't see him at all? No contact at all?

 

My son would do that to his father if I allowed it.

 

For the better part of a year. Then I allowed him to take me (and my brother) to my grandmother's and I refused to talk to him the whole way. I stuck headphones on and didn't even look at him. What a pill I was. I mean, he had been a real jerk to me too. And then slowly, he didn't press, he gave me lots of room (I'm sure my mother advised him to), and I slowly forgave him. And also, really, he slowly got him own life more together. And he did right by me about college - he had agreed to pay and while it was a bumpy road, he did. He's really a good guy - we're extremely different, but I'm very glad I have the strong relationship with him I have now.

 

The main thing that helped was that my parents, while they were all wrong together, tried hard not to use us as pawns against each other. They cooperated, were very cordial, tried hard to be partners on the big things. I mean, that's what's ideal - parents working together, not against each other, to allow kids to have the relationships *they* need, their own relationships, separate from being part of the parents' relationships. In a situation like in this case, that's obviously not possible so I don't know totally how it should be dealt with. I do know that I don't think the way this judge did it is right.

 

IIRC from previous things you've said, you don't have a positive parenting relationship with your ex at all, but if I was in the parenting situation, I would let a teen son have the relationship he wants with the other parent. I would make sure he had time available for the other parent and open the door to that, I would encourage him to think in terms of "this is your father, he will always be your father" and not to try to burn bridges - I would basically try to champion that parent's good points, but I wouldn't force a teen to spend time with him. I'm not sure what the legal issues involved would be exactly there though.

[Farrar]

A NCP cannot parent at all if he has no contact with his child. Sure teens have to make their own relationship with the NCP.....maybe they won't be close, maybe kid doesn't like the parent. But I do consider it a CPs responsibility to ensure at least some contact.

 

I think it should be the CP's responsibility to ensure that there is time, transportation, and technology (phones, skype, etc.) for contact. I don't think it should be their job to force the kid in the car and into the NCP's house to visit or whatever.

 

ETA: Speaking about teens, that is. I do think for younger kids a CP should go a step further and ensure actual contact assuming there's no abuse.

[zoobie]

If they kids refused to see him I can easily seeing him thinking supervised visits were better than nothing, maybe he agreed to supervised.

 

I can tell you from personal experience that sometimes there is absolutely NOT a valid reason that kids don't want to see the other parent.

It may not be valid to the parent, but the child's feelings are real and valid to the child. My mother thinks she has always been a faaaaabulous parent, and I simply went through a rebellious stage. LOLZ.

 

We both are coming at this with personal biases. From what you've shared about DSS, he has some significant issues. Maybe in his case, his lack of desire to have a relationship is more about him and less about your DH. Forcing him to physically be in your home is not going to establish a relationship. Not forcing him to be in your home isn't equivalent to severing your DH's parental rights.

 

I can't imagine how hard it must be on your DH. I would be heartbroken to be alienated from any of my children. I hope they find a way back to each other.

[zoobie]

Well I am glad you didn't have that experience either. But even if a parent is crappy, the law says they still have to see them. Even murderers in jail have visitation with their children. Rarely are all ties legally cut.

They have visitation potential. There's no requirement that the child attend or interact. Refusing to spend time with a parent isn't the same as legally severing parental ties.

[jelbe5]

I am sure there is a great deal more to this story than we know but I am confident that what this judge has done is abusive towards these children. These children have been abused by one or both parents (contentious divorce where they are in the middle) and now this judge has taken it to a whole new level.

 

Before children, I worked as a social worker for an agency which had group homes and a therapeutic day school. Abuse at the hands of other group home youth was not uncommon. If the judge felt the children neededed to be apart from the mother they should have been assigned to a loving family member or even a close family friend but kept together as a sib ship.

 

Intensive counseling and supervised visits with a highly trained therapist who can clearly see the parental interactions is probably warranted at this point in an effort to untangle the entire truth. It is possible the father has been emotionally and physically abusive. It is possible the mother has tried to turn the children against the father. A very skilled therapist will be able to see this in sessions and be able to figure out what is really going on. These children need help, not punishment, if there is to be any hope of them having normal family relationships themselves as adults.

[Scarlett]

For the better part of a year. Then I allowed him to take me (and my brother) to my grandmother's and I refused to talk to him the whole way. I stuck headphones on and didn't even look at him. What a pill I was. I mean, he had been a real jerk to me too. And then slowly, he didn't press, he gave me lots of room (I'm sure my mother advised him to), and I slowly forgave him. And also, really, he slowly got him own life more together. And he did right by me about college - he had agreed to pay and while it was a bumpy road, he did. He's really a good guy - we're extremely different, but I'm very glad I have the strong relationship with him I have now.

 

The main thing that helped was that my parents, while they were all wrong together, tried hard not to use us as pawns against each other. They cooperated, were very cordial, tried hard to be partners on the big things. I mean, that's what's ideal - parents working together, not against each other, to allow kids to have the relationships *they* need, their own relationships, separate from being part of the parents' relationships. In a situation like in this case, that's obviously not possible so I don't know totally how it should be dealt with. I do know that I don't think the way this judge did it is right.

 

IIRC from previous things you've said, you don't have a positive parenting relationship with your ex at all, but if I was in the parenting situation, I would let a teen son have the relationship he wants with the other parent. I would make sure he had time available for the other parent and open the door to that, I would encourage him to think in terms of "this is your father, he will always be your father" and not to try to burn bridges - I would basically try to champion that parent's good points, but I wouldn't force a teen to spend time with him. I'm not sure what the legal issues involved would be exactly there though.

My xh and I have been divorced for 6 years. In the first few months it was so bad. My poor ds suffered because ex and I both behaved badly. When ds was 11....2 years after the divorce he told his dad if he kept seeing the girlfriend, and kept forcing ds to co for visitation that ds would hate it and never see him again after he turned 18. I know my ex thinks I coached ds to say that but I absolutely did not. I was frankly stunned that he gave his dad such a well though out speech.

 

Xh stopped making ds be around the girlfriend and eventually they broke up....all along ds didn't like going, but it got worse and worse until last October xh told ds he would no longer force him to,come for visitation. Ds was thrilled. He hasn't been for an overnight since. However I still work with ex on meeting up when I am in his city so he can take ds to lunch. And he comes to our city once a month or so to take ds to lunch. And they text once in a while.

 

So that is how it has worked out for us...and I did explain to ex that if he forced all of his rights he may destroy the relationship completely. I guess he listened.

 

If xh wanted to insist upon his visitation and I didn't make ds go I would be in contempt of court. I made a special trip to see my attorney when ds was 12 because he begged me to go find out at what age he could stop seeing his dad.

[Farrar]

Scarlett, it sounds like you have come up with a decent middle ground.

[NorthwestMom]

I am sure there is a great deal more to this story than we know but I am confident that what this judge has done is abusive towards these children. These children have been abused by one or both parents (contentious divorce where they are in the middle) and now this judge has taken it to a whole new level.

 

Before children, I worked as a social worker for an agency which had group homes and a therapeutic day school. Abuse at the hands of other group home youth was not uncommon. If the judge felt the children neededed to be apart from the mother they should have been assigned to a loving family member or even a close family friend but kept together as a sib ship.

 

Intensive counseling and supervised visits with a highly trained therapist who can clearly see the parental interactions is probably warranted at this point in an effort to untangle the entire truth. It is possible the father has been emotionally and physically abusive. It is possible the mother has tried to turn the children against the father. A very skilled therapist will be able to see this in sessions and be able to figure out what is really going on. These children need help, not punishment, if there is to be any hope of them having normal family relationships themselves as adults.

:iagree:

 

No matter what the parents have done or not done, the judge was WAY out of line for insulting the children, putting them into a juvenile facility, and threatening to keep them there long-term. That heals nothing and only traumatizes the children further. It's outrageous.

[swellmomma]

I can't see how forcing a person to have a relationship with you does either of you any good. It seems to me they will only leave as soon as they are able to, and the more pressure they felt, the longer it will be before they come back.

Exactly.  I know if my teens didn't want to be with their dad and I forced it it would damage out relationship and not improve the one with their dad.  Fortunately for me my custody agreement with him does not have set visitation.  It is open and generous based upon mutual agreement.  How it plays out with me is he asks permission to see them, I talk to them.  Sometimes they go, sometimes they don't (due to other obligations, like cadet camp or dance competition etc).  Ex pouts and claims I have to make his relationship a priority with them.  I remind him he had no contact for 10 years, he still rarely speaks to them even though he is on their facebook, and THEY are the ones who chose not to go, so he can bite me.  He won't take it to court because he would lose in a big way (I agreed to lower child support than we are entitled to).  I do not force my kids to go, nor would I ever.  It has nothing to do with losing control of them and everything about honoring the boundaries they set up for themselves and respecting their opinions on the matter.  They also can refuse to see grandparents, aunts/uncles, cousins etc.  If I would not force them to spend time with any of them why would I do so just because the person is their father? My kids see him more often then not when he asks, in fact they are with him right now.  But my dd15 has been on the cusp of refusing to see him any more, and I filled him in on why, he had a hissy fit, then tried to blow off her reasons, and then he shut the heck up and did the right thing which included stopping his "jokes" which were actually insults to and about my kids.  My kids don't need me to alienate them from him, he has managed to do that by himself.  They have a very surface deep relationship with him, and I feel it is up to him to work on making it more.  Not up to me to force them to do so.

 

As for the story, it is insane.  THe judge sounds like she is sleeping witht eh father.  Even if the mom DID alienate them, which from another article I read (an interview with the dad) does not seem so cut and dry, he claims she did, but he took off for another country, and the mom is reported saying she wants the kids to have a relationship with him but they refuse.  Then sanction the mom, but to lock kids up in juvie until they are 18 or until they crack and agree to visit their dad and otherwise separate them from everyone who loves them is cruel. 

 

WTF is wrong with the justice system there? THe Nauglers get their kids back, but these kids are locked up in juvie away from their parents.  Kids need to stop paying the price for their parents sins.

[Scarlett]

Exactly. I know if my teens didn't want to be with their dad and I forced it it would damage out relationship and not improve the one with their dad. Fortunately for me my custody agreement with him does not have set visitation. It is open and generous based upon mutual agreement. How it plays out with me is he asks permission to see them, I talk to them. Sometimes they go, sometimes they don't (due to other obligations, like cadet camp or dance competition etc). Ex pouts and claims I have to make his relationship a priority with them. I remind him he had no contact for 10 years, he still rarely speaks to them even though he is on their facebook, and THEY are the ones who chose not to go, so he can bite me. He won't take it to court because he would lose in a big way (I agreed to lower child support than we are entitled to). I do not force my kids to go, nor would I ever. It has nothing to do with losing control of them and everything about honoring the boundaries they set up for themselves and respecting their opinions on the matter. They also can refuse to see grandparents, aunts/uncles, cousins etc. If I would not force them to spend time with any of them why would I do so just because the person is their father? My kids see him more often then not when he asks, in fact they are with him right now. But my dd15 has been on the cusp of refusing to see him any more, and I filled him in on why, he had a hissy fit, then tried to blow off her reasons, and then he shut the heck up and did the right thing which included stopping his "jokes" which were actually insults to and about my kids. My kids don't need me to alienate them from him, he has managed to do that by himself. They have a very surface deep relationship with him, and I feel it is up to him to work on making it more. Not up to me to force them to do so.

 

As for the story, it is insane. THe judge sounds like she is sleeping witht eh father. Even if the mom DID alienate them, which from another article I read (an interview with the dad) does not seem so cut and dry, he claims she did, but he took off for another country, and the mom is reported saying she wants the kids to have a relationship with him but they refuse. Then sanction the mom, but to lock kids up in juvie until they are 18 or until they crack and agree to visit their dad and otherwise separate them from everyone who loves them is cruel.

 

WTF is wrong with the justice system there? THe Nauglers get their kids back, but these kids are locked up in juvie away from their parents. Kids need to stop paying the price for their parents sins.

None of your situation compares at all to this case. Your ex didn't see the kids for 10 years. You never had specific visitation, and your kids have not cut off all contact with him.

[Scarlett]

It may not be valid to the parent, but the child's feelings are real and valid to the child. My mother thinks she has always been a faaaaabulous parent, and I simply went through a rebellious stage. LOLZ.

 

We both are coming at this with personal biases. From what you've shared about DSS, he has some significant issues. Maybe in his case, his lack of desire to have a relationship is more about him and less about your DH. Forcing him to physically be in your home is not going to establish a relationship. Not forcing him to be in your home isn't equivalent to severing your DH's parental rights.

 

I can't imagine how hard it must be on your DH. I would be heartbroken to be alienated from any of my children. I hope they find a way back to each other.

He is heartbroken. It has actually changed him I think. There is often a deep saddness to him that I just can't fix. His son is almost 19 now...dh lays eyes on him rarely. The other day when we took dss14 to the doctor, XW and dss18 showed up. Dh was able to speak to him briefly and shake his hand. Dss18 barely mumbled a word. But I told dh it was a good sign he was there....even if he drove into the city with his mom he could have stayed in the car if he wanted to totally avoid dh.

 

Everyone tells dh there is a great chance dss18 will come back around someday. Dh says, "I hope. But I will never get back these last three years."

[Farrar]

I guess it's the judge that makes this so weird. I mean, no matter what we think of whether - from what little we know - the parents were abusive or not or whether kids should have a say in having contact or not - I don't think any of us think what the judge's attitude toward the kids was okay. Either the kids were just straight up being truthful or they've been deeply manipulated by the mom. Either way, they deserve sympathy for being in this situation, not to be reprimanded by the authority figure who is supposed to be there to protect them.

[kwg]

He is heartbroken. It has actually changed him I think. There is often a deep saddness to him that I just can't fix. His son is almost 19 now...dh lays eyes on him rarely. The other day when we took dss14 to the doctor, XW and dss18 showed up. Dh was able to speak to him briefly and shake his hand. Dss18 barely mumbled a word. But I told dh it was a good sign he was there....even if he drove into the city with his mom he could have stayed in the car if he wanted to totally avoid dh.

 

Everyone tells dh there is a great chance dss18 will come back around someday. Dh says, "I hope. But I will never get back these last three years."

 

 

:grouphug: I am so sorry.

[3 ladybugs]

My sister suffers from parental alienation syndrome. I know her mom did it. Our father was an alcoholic when she was young, but clean and sober when she was about 6. He has been able to maintain it in the last 20 years too. She stopped talking to our father about 11 years ago. Sad too as she left rather abruptly when she decided to do this. She would have been about 14. Our sister was about 2 at the time and LOVED her big sister, who lived near her (I moved away before my father adopted my sisters). For years our sister would ask about her. Our youngest sister has never met her and she I can tell feels guilt over it, though I am sure she is told it wasn't her fault. :( She stopped talking to me about 9 years ago. I think the last conversation I had with her was when I had 2 children, a boy and a girl, both in the NICU and neither doing well (ended up loosing both of them). 

 

Our father did nothing to her other then he was an absent father prior to her being 6 or 7 (forget exactly how old she was when dad got clean). As evidence to that, our father adopted a baby from China twice (once in 2002, then a preschooler in 2007 - he needed home studies for both adoptions). I did nothing to her either. 

 

My sister is now 26 and has been married for about a year, had a baby boy in November. I occasionally look to see what I can see about her. It ends up hurting me more then helping though. I thought that maybe she would come around once she had a child and realized what it was like, but no. I am one of 7 people with my married last name (she was at my wedding, so she knows my last name) in this country. You find any of us, and you will find us all. Our aunt, has been living in the same house since about my sister's birth. Dad hasn't moved. So we are not hard to find. 

 

I think ultimately children that go through this turn into NPD as adults. At least that is the best I can come up with with my sister. Sad, but she is how she is and nothing can change that. :(

 

I feel bad for these children. I imagine they will not like being around either parent when they get older. Sad situation all around. :(

[umsami]

My sister suffers from parental alienation syndrome. I know her mom did it. Our father was an alcoholic when she was young, but clean and sober when she was about 6. He has been able to maintain it in the last 20 years too.....<cut>

 

Our father did nothing to her other then he was an absent father prior to her being 6 or 7 (forget exactly how old she was when dad got clean). 

 

I'm sorry for your loss of your babies and your sister.

 

I want to gently say that your father being an absent father for her first six or seven years and an alcoholic may be enough for her not to want to have anything to do with him.  It is a valid reason, IMHO.  Living with an alcoholic is extremely extremely tough.  Even if they become sober, it doesn't undue the damage that was done.   It's great that you have forgiven your father and forged a good relationship with him.  Part of the reason she may have alienated herself from your father (and it sounds like the rest of the family) is that she can't understand how you can forgive him. as she hasn't.  I hope she heals..and that you all heal.  Still, not everybody can forgive and forget.  Sometimes the damage and hurt is too great....even when done in young childhood.

[3 ladybugs]

I'm sorry for your loss of your babies and your sister.

 

I want to gently say that your father being an absent father for her first six or seven years and an alcoholic may be enough for her not to want to have anything to do with him.  It is a valid reason, IMHO.  Living with an alcoholic is extremely extremely tough.  Even if they become sober, it doesn't undue the damage that was done.   It's great that you have forgiven your father and forged a good relationship with him.  Part of the reason she may have alienated herself from your father (and it sounds like the rest of the family) is that she can't understand how you can forgive him. as she hasn't.  I hope she heals..and that you all heal.  Still, not everybody can forgive and forget.  Sometimes the damage and hurt is too great....even when done in young childhood.

My father was away from everyone when he was REALLY bad. I was close to my father when he was drinking, but not like he was when he hit bottom. But when he hit bottom he removed himself from her life. He was smart enough to do that. Honestly her mom likely has a drinking problem as well. She was drinking non-alcoholic beer when she was pregnant with her, at the time even I knew that was wrong!

 

She may have issues with our dad, but I don't think it was his drinking. She saw him for quite a few years after he was clean and sober, before she decided to leave us altogether. Like I said, she met our younger sister who was adopted. Dad adopted about 5 years (maybe more) after he got clean. 

[Anne in CA]

The judge is a nut if this is the best she could come up with. Children always seem to pay for the sins of the parents and the court.

[TeenagerMom]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2015/07/10/jailed-kids/29964437/

[Farrar]

When parents now live on different continents and they're this contentious, it seems likely that, he's going to whisk those kids out of the country and she'll never see them again. :( I hope that's not the case, even if she has been emotionally abusive, but there are so many instances of that. The father sounds like a real piece of work himself too.

 

 

[LucyStoner]

He moved to another country when his kids were ages 3-7? How is that not abandoning them? If he wanted to build a relationship with them, he would have put being near them ahead of his desire to move. He's a wealthy man, he didn't have to move to have work prospects.

[TeenagerMom]

He moved to another country when his kids were ages 3-7? How is that not abandoning them? If he wanted to build a relationship with them, he would have put being near them ahead of his desire to move. He's a wealthy man, he didn't have to move to have work prospects.

 

The first article I read said that they moved as a family to Israel for his work, then the Mom moved them back to the U.S.

[umsami]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2015/07/10/jailed-kids/29964437/

 

Quoting DrStix's article....the judge released the kids and is now sending them to summer camp.  Apparently, all of the media attention had some effect.  Good!

 

""The court agrees with the children's guardian's recommendation as to the best interests of the children," Gorcyca said this afternoon. "The court finds that is in the children's best interests to grant the father's and the guardian ad litem's motion to allow the children to attend summer camp. Children's Village is to facilitate the transportation.""

 

 

It does sound worrisome, though, that the article says the Dad lives in Israel (I thought he travelled there for work)....and the judge may give him custody.  Will they really let him take the kids out of the country?? To be honest, I think that this judge needs to recuse herself from the case....and the whole custody matter should be taken up by a different judge.

[unsinkable]

Those poor kids. They were locked up for over 2 weeks but now they can't go home...they're being shipped off to ANOTHER unknown place.

[LucyStoner]

If there is a guardian ad litum and they think the mother has engaged in intentional parental alienation, I would be more convinced. Convinced that the dad has a case, not that anyone should have locked up kids for two weeks.

[Farrar]

I don't know if it's actually an unknown place - this may be a camp they attend every year or it may be a camp that includes kids they already know. Regardless, it sounds way better than the children's home.