Befuddled musings on AP classes

[swimmermom3]

I am submitting another AP syllabus this evening and am still pondering this beast called "Advanced Placement." I've never been a fan of aggressive standardized testing and "teaching to the test" at many levels bothers me, to put it mildly.  So I am not sure how we ended up in the AP chase situation except that duel enrollment at CC would run not far off PAHS classes and have a wider range of quality. The university is available, but taking time to get down there and back would take a chunk out of the day that would leave no time for sailing and swimming. That leaves AP classes to provide the challenge and for the most part, it's working okay for us. We'll see when scores come in this summer.

 

But Sailor Dude stopped me in my tracks when he asked me if this is how college would be. You see, we say that AP classes are the equivalent of introductory college courses, so if Sailor Dude is taking 4 AP classes and a fourth year of language, in his mind, this should be a trial run for college with regards to work load.

 

So then comes the part that if we say that AP classes are for the "smart kids" and yet there are many kids who go on to college without any AP classes, what exactly does that mean?  During the summer between the end of high school and the beginning of college, all of the non-AP kids suddenly are magically ready to do the equivalent of AP work? Is this a really weird message or have I had to much coffee mixed with asthma inhaler while avoiding the syllabus?

 

AP Lang and Lit seem way more challenging than any lower level college writing or lit class I had. I can't judge the AP Biology as I never took science in college. Sailor Dude came home from class yesterday and had 50 pages to read in the Campbell book along with 3 study guides for a total of 60 short answer questions. It's due tomorrow. He has learned to do the study guides no later than the day after the class discussion because the class has moved on. Next Monday, another chapter is due with study guide, an essay and an oral presentation. 

[regentrude]

So then comes the part that if we say that AP classes are for the "smart kids" and yet there are many kids who go on to college without any AP classes, what exactly does that mean?  During the summer between the end of high school and the beginning of college, all of the non-AP kids suddenly are magically ready to do the equivalent of AP work? Is this a really weird message or have I had to much coffee mixed with asthma inhaler while avoiding the syllabus?

 

AP Lang and Lit seem way more challenging than any lower level college writing or lit class I had. I can't judge the AP Biology as I never took science in college. Sailor Dude came home from class yesterday and had 50 pages to read in the Campbell book along with 3 study guides for a total of 60 short answer questions. It's due tomorrow. He has learned to do the study guides no later than the day after the class discussion because the class has moved on. Next Monday, another chapter is due with study guide, an essay and an oral presentation. 

 

A few thoughts:

Not all colleges are created equal, and not all college classes are created equal. It really makes no sense to talk about "college" courses and find them magically qualitatively different from "high school" courses.

For example: there is absolutely no reason why the College Physics class for life science majors I teach at the university could not be taught to 10th graders with adequate math preparation. There is nothing intrinsically "college level" about it that would distinguish it from a strong high school level course. OTOH, the honors physics class my DD takes is light years above AP Physics C and absolutely no comparison.

 

I think distinguishing between "college level" and "high school level" creates a false dichotomy. A solid (not even highly gifted) high school student would certainly be capable of completing coursework that is offered at weak colleges, or even at strong colleges for students who are not majoring in the subject. High school is notorious for not challenging even half way smart students. Precaculus is precalculus - whether it's taught at a high school or a college. Plenty of students don't take trig until they are in college - but OTOH, there is nothing in there a 10th grader could not learn as well, if he had decent math in school.

 

What your DS may find different between AP courses and real college is not so much the work load, but the degree to which students are responsible for their own time management. There may be less structure and fewer small assignments  (although, in this country, college has moved pretty far towards hand holding and micromanaging college students). I would expect an AP class to have more busywork than the corresponding college course.

 

And the work load depends entirely on the caliber of the school and the student's major. A good student at a strong school with a regular course load can expect to put in a 50 hour week for school.

 

ETA: And the kids who did NOT have AP in high school and go to college? Well, then their first college course is harder than their high school classes. They adjust and figure it out. It's not like you can't hack college without having had AP classes.

[plansrme]

AP classes are harder than they have to be. I have taught them at home, and my daughter has taken them at school, and she vastly prefers my approach, which is pretty much to hand her the books and say, "Learn this." The busy work, the projects are huge time sucks and are mostly unnecessary to mastering the material. Lang and APUSH at her HS were the worst about this; Chem with ChemAdvantage was no more time-consuming than it needed to be. The material may be college-level, but I certainly never had a college class that required that many hours or that many silly projects.

[AFwife Claire]

AP classes are harder than they have to be. I have taught them at home, and my daughter has taken them at school, and she vastly prefers my approach, which is pretty much to hand her the books and say, "Learn this." The busy work, the projects are huge time sucks and are mostly unnecessary to mastering the material. Lang and APUSH at her HS were the worst about this; Chem with ChemAdvantage was no more time-consuming than it needed to be. The material may be college-level, but I certainly never had a college class that required that many hours or that many silly projects.

Boy, I agree with this.  Whenever I am preparing an AP syllabus, and I am looking at syllabi from other teachers (not the AP examples, just random ones on the internet), I am always astounded at how many extra group projects and other posters/presentations/collages/etc. there are, as if they have to assign all this extra stuff to be taken seriously or something.  

 

Also, in our small co-op this year, we are having AP world history taught by a friend of ours from church.  She teaches the class at a local public (highly regarded) high school part-time, since she has a 1 year old (and taught full-time for several years before she had her baby).  When she first started out with us, she had all these incredibly detailed instructions on how to take notes for chapters and so on that were SO time-consuming.  She requires this of her public-schooled students, but I told my boys that basically it's a lot of hand-holding to make SURE everyone reads and gets *something* out of the chapter.  After the first few weeks, she realized the co-op kids (just 4 of them) were very well-prepared without all this extra stuff, and so she hasn't required them to hand anything in regarding their notes.   I told the boys that should be more how college is--you figure out how to get the information out of the text, rather than the teacher holding your hand and spoon-feeding it to you.  

[maize]

I suspect that a lot of the extra assignments and projects exist for the sake of providing grading material; grades in US high schools are often more about how good a student is at following teacher instructions and turning assignments in than they are about mastery of material. College classes are usually graded on more of a mastery basis, often with only two or three graded tests/written papers per semester. In other countries secondary education most often follows a similar model; of course, in other countries high school grades are rarely a deciding factor in college admissions; high stakes exams most often play that role. 

[regentrude]

I think all those extra projects and assignments are there to create grades. For self study, you could base the grade simply on the AP exam. But in an American school? Oh boy, that is not going to go over well. Aside from the fact that the AP scores may not be available in time to report grades at the end of the school year.

[plansrme]

Ehh, I don't know.  I think the projects are there to provide a mystique about AP classes.  If they wanted grades, they could just test more.  

 

As an example, in APUSH last year, my daughter's most-hated project was to write your own DBQ.  The teacher's rationale was that writing your own--a project that dragged on for WEEKS--was a good way to learn to answer DBQs.  Well, it may have some value; but the best way to learn to answer DBQs is to ANSWER DBQs.  It's a formula; you are graded on a straightforward rubric; it's not a mystery to be divined through immersing yourself in the creative process.  Learning to answer DBQs should not be a weeks-long endeavor.  

 

With kids who truly are not ready for college-level material, which is the vast majority of high schoolers, perhaps all of this fluff is necessary to make them do something and to keep them engaged in the class.  Or maybe only the kids who are ready for college-level material can handle the time management required.  I don't know exactly, but I do think that the tests themselves adequately test college-level material; it is the classes that have gone off of the deep end.  

 

Our experience was that the non-science and math APs were the worst about this.  Physics, chem and calc were relatively straightforward.

[maize]

Ehh, I don't know.  I think the projects are there to provide a mystique about AP classes.  If they wanted grades, they could just test more.  

 

 

 

Ah, but they don't just want grades. The kids taking AP classes (and the parents of said kids) want A's. Testing can't guarantee everyone an A, unless the test is seriously dumbed down. So they fill in the rest with fluff that can provide the necessary A's. Never mind if it doesn't actually help the kids master the material and prepare for the AP exam.

 

At least, that is my impression of how things work in many schools. In the European schools I attended, grades had one primary purpose: to provide feedback on how well prepared a student was for the end of program exams. No-one expected all the students in a class to be able to achieve top marks on those exams; teachers and students worked hard to prepare, but it would have been doing no-one any service to grade class tests, essays, etc. by less than the rigorous exam standards. It was not uncommon for the class average on a test to be in the 50% or lower range. When tests and papers came back, you knew where you had come up short and what you needed to work on to improve; the entire system was mastery oriented. You would never have seen what commonly occurs in some American high schools where an AP class can have a graded class average in the A range, and yet only a minority (sometimes none) of the students are able to achieve high marks on the AP exam.

 

All hail the ever important GPA!

[8filltheheart]

I'll just come out and say I don't like APs. I personally don't think they are the only way to prep kids for college level,work. APs contain tons of busy work and memorizing and micromanagement. My kids' college level experiences have not been that way at all. Only our college freshman took APs, and he only took 2. My kids prefer DE bc they don't like the pressure of 1 test and they like the college labs, etc.

[Julie of KY]

I'm looking at some AP classes for subjects that I just don't want to teach.

 

I'm more in favor of taking my smart down a more ecclectic route of learning in certain subjects. I hate having to learn for a test. Overall having to sit and learn from a different teacher and do papers and projects that he doesn't like is worthwhile as it is something he'll have to do in college.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I'll just come out and say I don't like APs. I personally don't think they are the only way to prep kids for college level,work. APs contain tons of busy work and memorizing and micromanagement. My kids' college level experiences have not been that way at all. Only our college freshman took APs, and he only took 2. My kids prefer DE bc they don't like the pressure of 1 test and they like the college labs, etc.

 

This is the conclusion we've come to as well. Even my dd has started commenting on the AP classes her friends are taking. We have had many discussions about the topic lately and have concluded it doesn't seem to be the path my dd wants to take. If it closes doors down the road, so be it. She would be closing doors right in front of her in the present if she takes the AP path in the near future. She sees the choices some of her friends have made and is pretty sure she wants to make different ones. Dual enrollment will most likely be a better fit.

 

 

[Penguin]

There are plenty of things that I dislike about APs, but where we live dual enrollment is not an option. And we do want some outside verification. I do hope that we will find a path that won't require busywork to get there.

[regentrude]

I'll just come out and say I don't like APs. I personally don't think they are the only way to prep kids for college level,work. APs contain tons of busy work and memorizing and micromanagement. My kids' college level experiences have not been that way at all. Only our college freshman took APs, and he only took 2. My kids prefer DE bc they don't like the pressure of 1 test and they like the college labs, etc.

 

I second this. My DD has been admitted to extremely selective colleges without a single AP - she preferred dual enrollment at a university.

[plansrme]

There are plenty of things that I dislike about APs, but where we live dual enrollment is not an option. And we do want some outside verification. I do hope that we will find a path that won't require busywork to get there.

 

Self-studied APs do not present this issue.  My daughter took AP World and made a five, as a seventh grader, without doing a single diorama, journal entry, presentation, poem or group project of any sort.  She is very smart, but she also only in seventh grade and had a mom who was homeschooling her two siblings and working a part-time job--she literally SELF-studied; I just made out her schedule.  I have no reason to believe a good high school student could not do the same thing.  If you want to outsource, ChemAdvantage was another no-frills AP.  It was a lot of work, but the work was focused on learning the material, not on writing rap songs about chemistry. 

[snowbeltmom]

There are plenty of things that I dislike about APs, but where we live dual enrollment is not an option. And we do want some outside verification. I do hope that we will find a path that won't require busywork to get there.

Dual enrollment is not an option for us either.  I have dropped more than one online AP class because it contained way too much busywork. 

 

Fortunately, the option exists for self-studying the AP material and avoiding the "busywork" path.  My oldest, with the exception of AP English, self-studied for all of his APs last year and is doing the same this year. My younger two will also/are following the self-study path.

[MomsintheGarden]

We aren't able to do DE, either.  The local college is $$$, and the local CC is 45 min away, and $.  Online classes are expensive, too.  Self-study APs are a good fit for us.  I'm glad there are options.

[hepatica]

 

What your DS may find different between AP courses and real college is not so much the work load, but the degree to which students are responsible for their own time management. There may be less structure and fewer small assignments  (although, in this country, college has moved pretty far towards hand holding and micromanaging college students). I would expect an AP class to have more busywork than the corresponding college course.

 

 

 

I agree on the time management and hand holding. The pace is also different. In this sense, the AP classes are not really the same as a college course. They are an drawn-out, project filled, assignment filled version of college level material. 

 

AP American Gov., History, Lit, etc are year long courses. These would all be a semester course at college. College calculus is first and second semester. And so on....

[Gratia271]

Like others have said, DE is not an option for us.  Honestly, it would be our first choice for many of the reasons already stated, but it isn't feasible right now. Self-study for APs avoids a lot of hassle and busy-work.   At the same time, we have to outsource a couple things, if for no other reason than recommendation letters for programs.  DD has been in programs that require them, and DS recently applied to a program as 7th grader that wanted letters from two teachers. Thankfully, I had two.  Fencing coach and people from church weren't enough.  Anyway, having an outsider who can speak to your student's abilities may be necessary at some point. We just try to find the best most cost-effective way to educate our children well and keep doors open for them.

[swimmermom3]

I'll just come out and say I don't like APs. I personally don't think they are the only way to prep kids for college level,work. APs contain tons of busy work and memorizing and micromanagement. My kids' college level experiences have not been that way at all. Only our college freshman took APs, and he only took 2. My kids prefer DE bc they don't like the pressure of 1 test and they like the college labs, etc.

 

:D Well, I've certainly been vocal about my dislike of many aspects of the AP program in general, on the other hand, I've been equally vocal when an AP class has been a good fit for us.  I wish the decision were as easy for us as it has been for you and regentrude. (Eight, you know I mean that sincerely)

 

In our area, DE at the CC will run $92 a credit and that does not include the myriad of fees. DE at the university is $580 for four credits.  So if I look at one example AP class that I am familiar with, AP English Language, the decision making process looks something like this:

 

1. CC - $368(excluding fees) for 4 credits for Writing 121, 30-minute round-trip commute time, quality of instructors varies, majority of students required  to be in class

 

2. Uni - $580 (excluding fees) for 4 credits for Writing 121, 1-1.25 hour round-trip commute, quality of instructors varies, but instructor quality and student participation may be stronger.

 

3. PAHS - $600 for AP English Language (translates to 3 cr. hours at many universities with 4/5 score), instructor well-recommended, 90% students motivated and want to be there.

 

Obviously, it's going to look different depending on the subject, where you live in reference to higher education facilities, and your state or district's policy on DE.

 

I looked long and hard at biology at the university. If we had done that, ds would have the college credit and experience with probably much less stress.  If I had know about the shoulder surgery, it would have been a good plan because sailing and swimming wouldn't be factors in the time consideration.

 

Challenging our students and providing them with the skills to succeed in college seems to be no easy task - at least here and I am really trying not to dance with the "if only" monster.

 

 

During the summer between the end of high school and the beginning of college, all of the non-AP kids suddenly are magically ready to do the equivalent of AP work? Is this a really weird message or have I had to much coffee mixed with asthma inhaler while avoiding the syllabus?

 

I think it is important to tell our kids that college isn't a place where smart kids automatically do well.  College is a place where people who work hard do well.  I see a lot of kids skate by in high school on brains alone, and tumble when they hit college and need to put in the hours.

 

So, it isn't that the "smart fairy" visits the non-AP kids during the summer before college, it should be that in college, kids who didn't take AP classes are now ready to step up and do more work.

[swimmermom3]

I think it is important to tell our kids that college isn't a place where smart kids automatically do well.  College is a place where people who work hard do well.  I see a lot of kids skate by in high school on brains alone, and tumble when they hit college and need to put in the hours.

 

So, it isn't that the "smart fairy" visits the non-AP kids during the summer before college, it should be that in college, kids who didn't take AP classes are now ready to step up and do more work.

 

Excellent point. Our neighbor girl, that we've known since she was little, once said that she might be smarter than her younger brother, but that he has a work ethic that she lacks. Their mom, a kind and realistic woman once said the boy would never go to college. He's a sophomore in college doing well in his engineering major and he has a lovely scholarship on top of it all. That kid works hard at every thing he does and if talent is lacking, the casual observer would never know it.

[Penguin]

Are most AP courses through PA Homeschoolers low on the busy-work scale?  Please oh please say yes.

[8filltheheart]

:D Well, I've certainly been vocal about my dislike of many aspects of the AP program in general, on the other hand, I've been equally vocal when an AP class has been a good fit for us.  I wish the decision were as easy for us as it has been for you and regentrude. (Eight, you know I mean that sincerely)

 

In our area, DE at the CC will run $92 a credit and that does not include the myriad of fees. DE at the university is $580 for four credits.  So if I look at one example AP class that I am familiar with, AP English Language, the decision making process looks something like this:

 

1. CC - $368(excluding fees) for 4 credits for Writing 121, 30-minute round-trip commute time, quality of instructors varies, majority of students required  to be in class

 

2. Uni - $580 (excluding fees) for 4 credits for Writing 121, 1-1.25 hour round-trip commute, quality of instructors varies, but instructor quality and student participation may be stronger.

 

3. PAHS - $600 for AP English Language (translates to 3 cr. hours at many universities with 4/5 score), instructor well-recommended, 90% students motivated and want to be there.

 

Obviously, it's going to look different depending on the subject, where you live in reference to higher education facilities, and your state or district's policy on DE.

 

I looked long and hard at biology at the university. If we had done that, ds would have the college credit and experience with probably much less stress.  If I had know about the shoulder surgery, it would have been a good plan because sailing and swimming wouldn't be factors in the time consideration.

 

Challenging our students and providing them with the skills to succeed in college seems to be no easy task - at least here and I am really trying not to dance with the "if only" monster.

 

I don't disagree with you.  Just sharing our POV.  We have spent a small fortune on DE, but it has definitely been worth the $$ and the experience.  With the AP classes, yes, you can avoid the busy work at home, but you still have to study according to the content of the test and there is a lot of pressure on one day.  My kids just don't like that sort of pressure when they can be on a university campus with a professor.   Pace is also typically faster on a college campus for typical semester classes that are yr long AP courses.  That can be a positive or a negative, depending on the student.  We have also always lived within easy commute to a university.

 

The best decision I ever made was withdrawing ds from PAH's BC course.  It would have sucked the joy out of math for him. 

 

[swimmermom3]

I don't disagree with you.  Just sharing our POV.  We have spent a small fortune on DE, but it has definitely been worth the $$ and the experience.  With the AP classes, yes, you can avoid the busy work at home, but you still have to study according to the content of the test and there is a lot of pressure on one day.  My kids just don't like that sort of pressure when they can be on a university campus with a professor.   Pace is also typically faster on a college campus for typical semester classes that are yr long AP courses.  That can be a positive or a negative, depending on the student.  We have also always lived within easy commute to a university.

 

The best decision I ever made was withdrawing ds from PAH's BC course.  It would have sucked the joy out of math for him. 

 

And you know I contemplate your POV frequently. :D

 

Last year's experience with putting together an AP Euro syllabus and then teaching from it, had me in a perpetual snit and whining here frequently. We're spoiled by TWTM history and literature plan. We like going deep and one year surveys for world history and European history feel horribly rushed and it's easy to miss connections. In one of those "Oh duh!" moments after I had committed to Euro, I realized the reason my older kids had liked the AP Euro class at school was 1) Hungarian teacher w/ dry humor and vast knowledge and 2) they had no intention of taking the test.  Take the test prep out and the joy factor was big. AP Euro is the only chance for European history at the school and they love history.

 

I would love to have DE as a more viable option and think your kids are very fortunate.

 

We were very happy with our PAHS AP Lang class last year and I am not sure that Writing 121 at the university would have delivered the same results.  On the other hand, ds is not much of a reader in the typical sense and AP Lit. with the same amazing teacher is sucking the joy out of English class. He really wanted to be with her for another year of her writing instruction, but I think the actual lit part is "okay."  If I had really thought about it, studying lit in preparation for a test was the wrong choice with this student.

 

[swimmermom3]

Are most AP courses through PA Homeschoolers low on the busy-work scale?  Please oh please say yes.

 

My youngest holds a special disdain for busywork. I asked him what he thought of his PAHS classes in that regard. He said that they are, for the most part, a lot of work but not busywork. He can see the point of the assignments.

 

Never, ever, ask him about the collage for a public high school Health class that was graded on artistic and creative merit. (((shudder)))

 

[daijobu]

I'm going to throw this out there because success in freshman/introductory college classes has been on my mind.  

 

It seems to me that if you are learning college-level chemistry or physics for the first time in college, it can be very difficult to make an A or B.  Looking back on college I wonder how many students who aced intro to chemistry or intro to physics didn't already take AP chem and AP physics already?  

 

It seems to me that your freshman year of college is not a good time to be learning difficult material for the first time.  Thoughts?

[madrekts]

Some folks on the board lament "teaching to the test," while others (or maybe the same people) say, "Just give my kids the book to learn the material... no creative assignments, etc."  Having taught eight different AP classes, I can say that if you are teaching your child individually, you know their learning style and can avoid "busywork."  If you are teaching a group, you do need to approach assignments through a variety of methods and there is no way that any given student won't have some assignments that feel like wasted time.   Yes, some teachers go overboard, but homeschoolers should appreciate some efforts to make the history or whatever come alive.  I still have kids coming up to me several years after their course, remembering certain simulations or dramatic re-enactments or the parody song they wrote.  

 

[regentrude]

I'm going to throw this out there because success in freshman/introductory college classes has been on my mind.  

 

It seems to me that if you are learning college-level chemistry or physics for the first time in college, it can be very difficult to make an A or B.  Looking back on college I wonder how many students who aced intro to chemistry or intro to physics didn't already take AP chem and AP physics already?  

 

It seems to me that your freshman year of college is not a good time to be learning difficult material for the first time.  Thoughts?

 

I teach introductory physics for engineering and science students at a public university with STEM focus. A third of my students NEVER had any sort of physics class before. A third had algebra based physics. The number of students who had AP physics but did not received credit or only took the algebra based AP course is very small.

 

Regular introductory courses are designed not to assume any prior physics knowledge. There are two reasons why students struggle: they may have insufficient math skills, or they are lacking work ethic and time management skills (or both). I have not found the absence of a prior physics course a reason for underperforming - but every single student who fails the course also has multiple missed assignments. 

 

In fact, prior physics courses are often detrimental because of shoddy teaching. It takes me weeks to wean them off the sloppy techniques their physics teachers taught them in high school and to get them to approach problem solving in a systematic manner. The ones who never had physics do as we say; the ones who had crappy physics want to argue.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

First-just like a previous poster we use AP classes because DE just isn't an option where we live.  Sometimes you just do what you can and offer your kids the biggest challenge that they can handle and you can provide.  That could be AP/DE/CLEP/ or something else entirely.

 

Second-I do not believe that all AP syllabi have to be constructed with busy work or meaningless assignments.  If you cover the required points in your syllabus you can be as creative or off the wall as you desire.  Or you can have a bare minimum syllabus that covers the scoring criteria for the purposes of the audit and then add in all that makes you delight in studying subject x for yourself and your students.

[eternalsummer]

To answer the original question without reading the whole thread: as of 7 years ago, at a standard state college, nothing special (University of Kansas), no, regular college classes are nothing like advanced high school classes (though I did IB instead of AP, it's more or less the same thing in terms of workload/difficulty, I gather).  College at a state school for a liberal arts degree is much much easier than a college-prep track at high school; unless you find a way to challenge yourself it is easy and boring.  No, all of those students who couldn't manage an advanced track in high school did not suddenly get magically brainy over the summer.  

 

I can only speak to the humanities, though - tested out of all math and science and never took a course in college.

[Muttichen]

Are most AP courses through PA Homeschoolers low on the busy-work scale?  Please oh please say yes.

In my experience, they vary.  Middle dd did European History with Meghan Paher and it had an incredible amount of intensely time consuming busy work.  "Tasting History" -- try a medieval recipe, design a CD cover about the French Revolution, make a multi-media timeline, etc., etc. YIKES!  None of it had any value, in my opinion.  That was years ago, though, so she may have improved the course.

 

Most of the other courses are better, but even in APUSH with Susan Richman, my very favorite course, students are supposed to watch videos every week that take several hours and that my kids got NOTHING out of.  I just let them skip them.

 

Middle ds got a B in Music Theory even though he had 100 percent on the final because at the end of the year, when the teacher was giving them busy work instead of FRQs (practice exam questions), I assigned the FRQs instead.  He skipped two of her assignments, but things were weighted so the silly busy work counted for as much as the final! He ended up getting a five on the exam, and we gave him an A on his transcript.  I feel that as a homeschooler, I have the right to replace any assignment that is a waste of time with something that will help them prepare for the test.

 

So, yeah, not all PAH classes are equal.

[8filltheheart]

Muttichen's description was what I thought about the cal BC class. Tons of videos, repetitive numbers of problems. He was spending a couple of hrs a day completing assignments that would have taken about 1/2 an hour to master the concepts. We switched to AoPS cal and he spent a couple of hrs per day really challenged, not wasting his time.

[Bootsie]

IME, the content in an AP class may be the same as the content in a college class, but the experience is much different.  In  my local public schools, the AP classes are filled with extra assignments and projects.  Much of this is busy work and impacts the grades (often boosting the grades above what would be received in a college class).  They are also taught at half the speed of a college class with a lot more hand holding.  I have seen many students who cannot transition to college work when there isn't all of the hand holding.  Self-study for the AP exam removes some of those issues, but it still is not the same as a college experience of entering into a conversation about the discipline.  (This is what I think a college course should be--I realize it often is not.)

[My3girls]

So question for those that self-studied for the AP exam. How do you reflect this on your student's transcript? I've been working on my dd13's general hs plan, and AP classes are just too expensive for us. I'm not sure that DE is any better. I'm seriously considering public hs just because she could have those options free. I'm so frustrated! Self-study might be the alternative, though. How do selective universities look at these?

[MBM]

I think it is important to tell our kids that college isn't a place where smart kids automatically do well.  College is a place where people who work hard do well.  I see a lot of kids skate by in high school on brains alone, and tumble when they hit college and need to put in the hours.

 

So, it isn't that the "smart fairy" visits the non-AP kids during the summer before college, it should be that in college, kids who didn't take AP classes are now ready to step up and do more work.

 

Amen. In fact, students who peter out are the ones who think of themselves as *smart* and not *hard working.* They believe that their intelligence is an unchangeable trait. Failing means they're not smart so they stop trying. Carol Dweck has written about this in her book Mindset.

[Penguin]

Have any of you audited AP courses with PA Homeschool? I am thinking it could be a much cheaper option with the ability to pick and choose assignments. But still provide insight into prepping for AP.

 

ETA: Or is this a dumb idea?

 

 

I am a bit intimidated about directing an AP self-study. Perhaps needlessly so, but intimidated nevertheless. I am trying to get over that.

[regentrude]

So question for those that self-studied for the AP exam. How do you reflect this on your student's transcript? I've been working on my dd13's general hs plan, and AP classes are just too expensive for us. I'm not sure that DE is any better. I'm seriously considering public hs just because she could have those options free. I'm so frustrated! Self-study might be the alternative, though. How do selective universities look at these?

 

You can have your syllabus approved by the College Board and then label the class as "AP Calculus (or whatever)".

Alternatively, you can save yourself the hasssle, have your student take the AP exam, and label the course "Calculus (or whatever) with AP exam".

 

I do not think colleges give any weight to an "AP" course if the exam has not been taken.

Conversely, I do not think anybody cares about the method of preparation when there is a solid AP test score.

[Library Momma]

I'm discouraged reading this thread to see that AP classes have changed since I was in school.  the AP classes I had were very much like college classes in that your grades were based on just a few tests and/or papers.  There were no projects or busywork, that was for the lower level classes.  Time in class was spent taking notes from lectures, doing labs, or in deep discussions regarding the material (depending on the class).  It was eye opening for many students that a single exam could make or break your grade for that class.

 

 

[snowbeltmom]

So question for those that self-studied for the AP exam. How do you reflect this on your student's transcript?

I listed the class as " X with AP exam".  I also report all AP scores on the transcript.

 

 

[Luckymama]

I'm thinking back over the AP classes my older kids took in high school (two different private schools). I cannot remember busy work like posters, PowerPoint presentations, reading comprehension fill-in-the-blank worksheets, and the like. I do remember heavy reading loads, oodles of papers, practice DBQs and FRQs as homework, and long, long problem sets for math and science.

 

Between them they took APUSH (2), US Government, Psychology (2), both Physics C, Statistics, both Englishes (2), and Bio.

[swimmermom3]

IME, the content in an AP class may be the same as the content in a college class, but the experience is much different.  In  my local public schools, the AP classes are filled with extra assignments and projects.  Much of this is busy work and impacts the grades (often boosting the grades above what would be received in a college class).  They are also taught at half the speed of a college class with a lot more hand holding.  I have seen many students who cannot transition to college work when there isn't all of the hand holding.  Self-study for the AP exam removes some of those issues, but it still is not the same as a college experience of entering into a conversation about the discipline.  (This is what I think a college course should be--I realize it often is not.)

 

I am curious about the comment on pacing. I know that some introductory world history classes cover everything in one semester - so 1,000 pages over a couple of months.  So does that mean for something like an introductory biology course, the students are covering 2-4 chapters a week out of a text like Campbell?  They are doing double-time on what the AP class looks like? For ds's AP Biology class, there are roughly 28 weeks of instruction. The class is on a block schedule with a chapter covered every class meeting (every other day) with every fourth class meeting being an exam. Interspersed throughout are the 13 labs. Students read ( and do the study guide if they are smart, but not a requirement). They have turned in one essay with an oral presentation. This is probably the nod to AP guidelines regarding writing. I am trying to envision covering 4-6 chapters a week in that class.  I know in college the labs would be separate.

[MBM]

I'm thinking back over the AP classes my older kids took in high school (two different private schools). I cannot remember busy work like posters, PowerPoint presentations, reading comprehension fill-in-the-blank worksheets, and the like. I do remember heavy reading loads, oodles of papers, practice DBQs and FRQs as homework, and long, long problem sets for math and science.

 

Between them they took APUSH (2), US Government, Psychology (2), both Physics C, Statistics, both Englishes (2), and Bio.

 

Same here. Very little hand holding, too, and they cover more than what will be on the test. For example, after the BC Calc exam, the teachers have the kids work on a math research project to give them an idea what that entails. Students still have 3 to 4 weeks of school left after AP exams so they keep studying and then take finals.

 

Some of the high school rankings are tied to the number of APs taken (not scores) so that might explain why some AP classes at various high schools are so watered down.

[Kathy in Richmond]

So question for those that self-studied for the AP exam. How do you reflect this on your student's transcript? I've been working on my dd13's general hs plan, and AP classes are just too expensive for us. I'm not sure that DE is any better. I'm seriously considering public hs just because she could have those options free. I'm so frustrated! Self-study might be the alternative, though. How do selective universities look at these?

My kids mostly self-studied APs at home with me, only taking 1 or 2 each from PA Homeschoolers online.

 

I never bothered to have my syllabi approved, so I listed these courses on their transcripts as "Advanced Chemistry w/ AP exam," etc. Their AP scores were included on the transcripts, too. No problem at all with selective university acceptances.

[MomsintheGarden]

I am curious about the comment on pacing. I know that some introductory world history classes cover everything in one semester - so 1,000 pages over a couple of months.  So does that mean for something like an introductory biology course, the students are covering 2-4 chapters a week out of a text like Campbell?  They are doing double-time on what the AP class looks like? For ds's AP Biology class, there are roughly 28 weeks of instruction. The class is on a block schedule with a chapter covered every class meeting (every other day) with every fourth class meeting being an exam. Interspersed throughout are the 13 labs, so roughly 1+ per week. Students read ( and do the study guide if they are smart, but not a requirement). They have turned in one essay with an oral presentation. This is probably the nod to AP guidelines regarding writing. I am trying to envision covering 4-6 chapters a week in that class.  I know in college the labs would be separate.

 

I believe the pacing depends on the course and exam..  For instance, if a student is studying the material for all of World History, Chemistry, Calc BC, or both Physics C exams in one school year, the pacing would be the same as that of a normal university course.  If a student is studying the material for MicroEcon, Psych, Government, or one of the English exams for an entire school year, that would be at half the pace of a college course.

 

In our homeschool, my students have done both types of pacing, depending on the course and the student's talents and interests.  For instance, ds is studying for the AP Chem and Eng. Lang. & Comp. exams over this entire school year.  He is spending a lot more time studying for the Chem exam than the Eng exam.  That's ok with me; he's doing other work to fill out his English credit, and English is not his focus right now.  But I agree that the English exam is definitely half paced or less, especially since he did AP Eng Lit last year.

 

Since the Chem is equivalent to two semesters of Gen Chem, I consider the pacing the same as for the college course equivalent.

 

You can probably figure the pacing by how many credits are traditionally awarded for each AP exam by colleges, usually by looking at a couple uni websites.  Or you could ask here.  :)

 

[Luckymama]

So question for those that self-studied for the AP exam. How do you reflect this on your student's transcript? I've been working on my dd13's general hs plan, and AP classes are just too expensive for us. I'm not sure that DE is any better. I'm seriously considering public hs just because she could have those options free. I'm so frustrated! Self-study might be the alternative, though. How do selective universities look at these?

I, on the other hand, did submit my AP syllabi to the College Board for approval and official designation. Why?

 

1. I was creating a syllabus with readings, resources, and papers to cover the AP material anyway. It was not onerous to mark certain sections with whatever codes necessary to show the important topics or concepts were included.

 

2. I wanted access to the teacher-only materials provided by the College Board (free previously-released exams, for example) and to the materials shared among other AP teachers of that subject. Of course you can find all sorts of goodies by googling, but I found that the ideas shared on the teacher community to be well-worth the "effort" of submitting as syllabus.

 

3. If I face trouble finding a seat for dd to fake the AP exam, I want to be able to tell the school AP coordinator that dd has taken an officially-approved AP course. Homeschooling is not very common here, and it's even less common for homeschoolers to take AP exams.

 

4. Rightly or wrongly, I'm writing dd's transcript so that the busiest and/or least-educated-about-homeschooling admissions person reading it will recognize right away that she took X number of AP classes.

 

(I'm sure there are more reasons, but I have to get back to school things!)

[swimmermom3]

Amen. In fact, students who peter out are the ones who think of themselves as *smart* and not *hard working.* They believe that their intelligence is an unchangeable trait. Failing means they're not smart so they stop trying. Carol Dweck has written about this in her book Mindset.

 

Carol Dweck's book is one of the most helpful books I've read with regard to raising my kids. I only wish I had read early for more benefit with the older kids.

[swimmermom3]

I'm thinking back over the AP classes my older kids took in high school (two different private schools). I cannot remember busy work like posters, PowerPoint presentations, reading comprehension fill-in-the-blank worksheets, and the like. I do remember heavy reading loads, oodles of papers, practice DBQs and FRQs as homework, and long, long problem sets for math and science.

 

Between them they took APUSH (2), US Government, Psychology (2), both Physics C, Statistics, both Englishes (2), and Bio.

 

I wonder if part of the shift is due to the increasing numbers of students taking the classes that may not be ready to do so. There is pressure from the schools' side to increase enrollment to make their numbers look good and students feel pressured to take them to be more competitive.  One comment I read recently had to do with a teacher's unhappiness with a student who took a couple of AP exams where he would do the MC and sleep through the essays. That's a kid who didn't want to be there.

 

Kids who aren't ready for the classes may need some busywork to boost their grade. Ugh! I don't know.

 

[regentrude]

I wonder if part of the shift is due to the increasing numbers of students taking the classes that may not be ready to do so. There is pressure from the schools' side to increase enrollment to make their numbers look good and students feel pressured to take them to be more competitive.  One comment I read recently had to do with a teacher's unhappiness with a student who took a couple of AP exams where he would do the MC and sleep through the essays. That's a kid who didn't want to be there.

 

Kids who aren't ready for the classes may need some busywork to boost their grade. Ugh! I don't know.

 

 

Yes to the bolded. School stats include the number of AP courses offered and the percentage of students who take those courses. Having these numbers high make the school look good.

 

People have reported on these boards frequently that their school offers AP, but that only a small portion of the students take the exam, and only a tiny portion scores high enough to receive college credit.

My colleagues in the math department complain every year that many incoming students who have an AP calc class on the transcript test into remedial college algebra or trig.

[J-rap]

I've become disappointed in AP classes.  My first three took AP classes at the local high school, just to have them.  The classes felt easy compared to their classes at home.  After actually going to college, they didn't feel their AP classes were anything close to their college level courses.  I realize this is because AP classes can vary so much from high school to high school, but that's why I am disappointed in them.  They might be good, or they might not.

 

My husband worked with a certified AP teacher to teach my son a couple AP classes himself, at home.  My son got more out of those classes than he did at the local high school.

 

Then, my son got ahold of the AP syllabus for other classes and just studied on his own, and was able to take the AP tests in them.  He did well on those.  (I'm not sure if that's allowed anymore?)

 

The AP tests that all of my children took, who went on to 4 different colleges, really barely helped them out in the end.  Only a few of their AP classes/tests were accepted and although they did fulfill requirements, they didn't fulfill credits.

 

Maybe their AP classes/tests helped them to be accepted, but I guess we'll never really know.

 

My one daughter who didn't transfer any AP credits or pass any AP tests is on par with the schedule my others had.

 

Maybe it's different in different parts of the country and with different colleges, but this has been our experience.

 

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Yes to the bolded. School stats include the number of AP courses offered and the percentage of students who take those courses. Having these numbers high make the school look good.

 

People have reported on these boards frequently that their school offers AP, but that only a small portion of the students take the exam, and only a tiny portion scores high enough to receive college credit.

My colleagues in the math department complain every year that many incoming students who have an AP calc class on the transcript test into remedial college algebra or trig.

It's not only so the school can look good. There is a concerted push to not only offer AP widely but to push students into AP who are not ready under the belief that the students will rise to higher levels under the higher expectations than they would if taught in classes at or slightly above their level.

 

Evidently what would clearly be stupid with the high school football team (everyone plays varsity) is fine if it's a math or history class.