Befuddled musings on AP classes

I've become disappointed in AP classes.  My first three took AP classes at the local high school, just to have them.  The classes felt easy compared to their classes at home.  After actually going to college, they didn't feel their AP classes were anything close to their college level courses.  I realize this is because AP classes can vary so much from high school to high school, but that's why I am disappointed in them.  They might be good, or they might not.

 

I'm curious which classes these were.  There's a huge range in difficulty across the various AP classes. I think there's an even greater range in difficulty across subjects than there is across the same subject taught in different places. The one I'm most familiar with, AP Latin, is, pretty close to the content that a fifth or sixth semester college class would study.  The required number of lines to prepare for the AP Latin test is pretty long, so there isn't much time for fooling around with making diaramas or other trivial activities.  

 

On the other hand, 50% of the students taking AP Human Geography test are high school freshmen.  If freshmen routinely take this AP class, do we really, honestly believe it is college level?  The UK university system divides the AP test into two tiers when considering admissions of North American students.  The lower tier AP tests are worth no more than half what the upper ones are.

[daijobu]

 The UK university system divides the AP test into two tiers when considering admissions of North American students.  The lower tier AP tests are worth no more than half what the upper ones are.

 

I'm curious which APs are considered upper and lower tier?  

[OhioMomof3]

Daijobu beat me to it: how does one know which APs are the upper tier ones and which are the lower tier ones?

Daijobu beat me to it: how does one know which APs are the upper tier ones and which are the lower tier ones?

 

link

 

I'm not saying this is perfect, but it sure shows that someone thinks that not all AP classes are equal.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

You can have your syllabus approved by the College Board and then label the class as "AP Calculus (or whatever)".

Alternatively, you can save yourself the hasssle, have your student take the AP exam, and label the course "Calculus (or whatever) with AP exam".

 

I do not think colleges give any weight to an "AP" course if the exam has not been taken.

Conversely, I do not think anybody cares about the method of preparation when there is a solid AP test score.

I think part of the issue with having AP as a designation on your transcript is to meet that nebulous requirement that you challenge yourself by taking the hardest courses possible in your "school". 

 

I have no idea if admissions counselors view AP xxx and xxx with AP exam equally.  I could make an argument as to why they are the same but there isn't always that option.  Secondly, for courses taken senior year there will be no AP score to provide on an application just a notation that an exam will be taken.

 

Finally, there are kids who challenge themselves with an AP course and work hard-sometimes they don't have a solid exam score, sometimes it is just an ok score.  In a case such as this I think the method of preparation and grade received in the class is very important.  For a variety of reasons AP exams can go badly-ill preparation, nervousness, illness, poor test taking skills, changing expectations at CB, lack of time spent reviewing exams by the readers...  Not every kid is going to receive a 5, lots will receive lower grades, the fact that they can prove they studied through an approved syllabus shows that they are endeavoring to challenge themselves in their course load.  It also creates a way of equating a homeschooled student with a student in a b&m school.  For some that is an advantage.

 

Is AP the only way to prepare for college and college admission- absolutely not! But an approved AP course is certainly a valid option.

[swimmermom3]

link

 

I'm not saying this is perfect, but it sure shows that someone thinks that not all AP classes are equal.

 

That's very similar to the credit offerings I've seen for schools that my son is looking at here.  Science and language classes have the highest payouts at 12 credits for a 4 or 5.  European and US History offered 8 credits and courses like Human Geography, Psychology, and sadly, both English classes only offer 3 credits. I don't remember what the math is worth.

 

[swimmermom3]

I think part of the issue with having AP as a designation on your transcript is to meet that nebulous requirement that you challenge yourself by taking the hardest courses possible in your "school". 

 

I have no idea if admissions counselors view AP xxx and xxx with AP exam equally.  I could make an argument as to why they are the same but there isn't always that option.  Secondly, for courses taken senior year there will be no AP score to provide on an application just a notation that an exam will be taken.

 

Finally, there are kids who challenge themselves with an AP course and work hard-sometimes they don't have a solid exam score, sometimes it is just an ok score.  In a case such as this I think the method of preparation and grade received in the class is very important.  For a variety of reasons AP exams can go badly-ill preparation, nervousness, illness, poor test taking skills, changing expectations at CB, lack of time spent reviewing exams by the readers...  Not every kid is going to receive a 5, lots will receive lower grades, the fact that they can prove they studied through an approved syllabus shows that they are endeavoring to challenge themselves in their course load.  It also creates a way of equating a homeschooled student with a student in a b&m school.  For some that is an advantage.

 

Is AP the only way to prepare for college and college admission- absolutely not! But an approved AP course is certainly a valid option.

 

Yes, to the part in bold.  DE classes could be one way to meet the "challenge" aspect, but as we've discussed, that can be problematic too.  Perhaps we need a return to regular classes that provide solid foundations and honors classes that provide extra challenge and nobody gets credits or extra weight to their grades.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

This is just my opinion, so take it fwiw. I honestly do not believe that Xxx with ap exam or ap xxx is going to sway an admissions officer one way or another. What is probably of primary importance is understanding the process at the individual schools your student is applying to.

 

Avg state universities are just not going to care. They are going to want to see the basics and test scores. Only the level of selectivity beyond admissions for scholarships and honors programs are going to care about their higher level classes. That and the actual score for credit. But avg universities are not going to require APs for admission.

 

At more select schools, you can use homeschooling as a strength to stand out, not as a reason to blend in. They are not going to expect your student to be a ps student. You can use it as an opportunity to have transcripts that do not resemble the cookie cutter stacks of other applicants. And while sr yr AP scores may not be available, all other scores should be. If everything is relying on the sr yr, your student is already at a serious disadvantage for highly competitive schools. Xxx with AP exams showing scores of 5 in 10th and 11th tells them what they need to know about 12th grade Xxx with AP exam.

 

A friend is taking a grad level education class and she is writing a paper on homeschooling. We were talking about it yesterday and I told her that I thought Stanford's homeschool views were something she should look at. We pulled up this article. (I hadn't seen this one before yesterday. I wonder if there is a more recent one. For anyone interested in Stanford, it might be worth digging around.) http://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=39384

I think articles like this one show that student self-directed passions are what they love about homeschooling. There needs to be verification of their level of accomplishments. But they are also looking at a different element than just course titles.

 

It really is important to understand that how your application package as a whole reflects what that individual school is looking for. Publics and privates are going to be different. Selectivity is going to be different. For example, grades are going to matter at most schools. I would give them. AP designation first.....I am very doubtful bc the teacher behind the syllabi is still a complete unknown as is the student taking the class. Plenty of schools have AP students scoring 1s. It is more about the outcome than the title. The scores are the important factor as a homeschooler.

 

But those are just my thoughts. Others may have different experiences.

[Joan in GE]

link

 

I'm not saying this is perfect, but it sure shows that someone thinks that not all AP classes are equal.

 

I found their analysis of SAT II scores interesting...they consider a 650 equal to an A....

[regentrude]

I found their analysis of SAT II scores interesting...they consider a 650 equal to an A....

 

Which, from our experience with SAT2s, I find fairly reasonable. A student who gets a 650 on a subject test would likely have received a grade of A in the high school class on the subject, where the grade was earned cumulatively throughout the year and did not hinge on one comprehensive multiple choice test with a hard time limit.

One should not look at the percentile distribution on the SAT2s; these are heavily skewed since only students who excel at the subject are taking the subject test. In Math2, 650 is the 37th percentile, so 63% of students score above. I would suspect that at least 63% of the students who take the test at all have an A in high school precalculus - the students who struggle in math won't take the test.

The subject tests serve to distinguish performance at the very upper end of the distribution.

[MBM]

Carol Dweck's book is one of the most helpful books I've read with regard to raising my kids. I only wish I had read early for more benefit with the older kids.

 

Some of Dweck's former PhD students are expanding her ideas and doing outstanding things. I especially like reading about David Yeager's work.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/09/how-to-get-insecure-students-to-work-harder/379500/

https://ace.nd.edu/news/ace-graduate-chairs-white-house-meeting-on-academic-mindsets

[MBM]

I found their analysis of SAT II scores interesting...they consider a 650 equal to an A....

 

At my son's high school, a student applying to a selective school with a score of 650 would probably either retake the test or not mention the test on their application. I know kids who got as high as 760 who retook SAT 2 exams because they thought it was a bad score.

[regentrude]

At my son's high school, a student applying to a selective school with a score of 650 would probably either retake the test or not mention the test on their application. I know kids who got as high as 760 who retook SAT 2 exams because they thought it was a bad score.

 

Yes, but for a highly selective school, merely an "A" would not make the student competetive - it is performing on the very tippy top percentile range of the A students.

 

[In The Great White North]

 

link

 

I'm not saying this is perfect, but it sure shows that someone thinks that not all AP classes are equal.

It's interesting that Calculus AB and Calculus BC are both " A" tests, when AB is designed to be less than BC.

[Guest2]

I have such mixed feelings about AP classes.

I don't want an outside entity teaching their agenda to my high school kids for the most part. I think the College Board controls the high school education of most higher achieving brick and mortar kids and a fair number of homeschoolers. I think it is difficult these days to find homeschoolers or PS kids not taking either AP, Clep, PSAT, SAT tests. Teaching to the test is a bit necessary for many ,if not most, kids to succeed . At minimum , there is usually time focused on a test prep book for that subject or test. Some classes have quite a bit of time slated for the test prep..class is over but last month is prepping. Teachers often don't have time to add in relevant information or theories that will not be covered by the test.

On the other hand, how do you find classes that challenge a student to that level?

No answers here. Sometimes, I think my oldest got a much superior education because my husband taught him. My husband didn't research the PS trends and homeschool outsourced classes. He didn't care much for the homeschool textbooks, just grabbed some of his college books and some lit that influenced him and illustrated different genres. It was tailored much more to what my husband thought our DS needed to know and what they both found interesting. I pushed the outsourcing of a few classes as job changes and moves happened. Not sure if that was a good idea.

[Joan in GE]

Yes, but for a highly selective school, merely an "A" would not make the student competetive - it is performing on the very tippy top percentile range of the A students.

 

 

 

I made the comment partly in relation to ideas like MBM mentioned, but also because Laura Corin has mentioned that GCSE's are approx the level of SAT II's and so then if the UK considers a 650 an A, then it is not quite the same as getting the top scores in SAT II's...not sure if I'm explaining clearly and have to run...

[swimmermom3]

<snip>

At more select schools, you can use homeschooling as a strength to stand out, not as a reason to blend in. They are not going to expect your student to be a ps student. You can use it as an opportunity to have transcripts that do not resemble the cookie cutter stacks of other applicants. And while sr yr AP scores may not be available, all other scores should be. If everything is relying on the sr yr, your student is already at a serious disadvantage for highly competitive schools. Xxx with AP exams showing scores of 5 in 10th and 11th tells them what they need to know about 12th grade Xxx with AP exam.

 

A friend is taking a grad level education class and she is writing a paper on homeschooling. We were talking about it yesterday and I told her that I thought Stanford's homeschool views were something she should look at. We pulled up this article. (I hadn't seen this one before yesterday. I wonder if there is a more recent one. For anyone interested in Stanford, it might be worth digging around.) http://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=39384

I think articles like this one show that student self-directed passions are what they love about homeschooling. There needs to be verification of their level of accomplishments. But they are also looking at a different element than just course titles.

 

It really is important to understand that how your application package as a whole reflects what that individual school is looking for. Publics and privates are going to be different. Selectivity is going to be different. For example, grades are going to matter at most schools. I would give them. AP designation first.....I am very doubtful bc the teacher behind the syllabi is still a complete unknown as is the student taking the class. Plenty of schools have AP students scoring 1s. It is more about the outcome than the title. The scores are the important factor as a homeschooler.

 

But those are just my thoughts. Others may have different experiences.

 

First, thank you for sharing the article. It was one of the more intelligent and informative articles that I have seen when homeschooling and college admissions are linked together.

 

"Challenge," "passion," and "singularity," are all rolled up into a twisted knot for me, which I find difficult to untangle.  Perhaps what complicates the untangling process is having a child that fits somewhere between the "average" and the "extraordinary' students that I read about on this board and in the media. This could probably be said for many of the students of board members.

 

Here, we find it difficult to pursue all three areas listed above at one time.

 

When we started high school, I didn't know that some colleges asked that students show that they continue to challenge themselves all through high school.  I just picked the level of challenge that I thought was appropriate for my son.  Since I had older kids in the public school, I compared their classes with the content of our home classes and tweaked where needed. The courses on ds's transcript that do not carry "AP" or "Honors" labels, worry me.  I have to count on college admissions staff knowing enough about curriculum to read between the lines on my course descriptions?  Will they really know that ds's home chemistry class was on a whole different level compared to the ps class?  They'll know that we used a college text, not a high school text and that we did twice the number of labs as is standard?

 

There are risks involved with pushing a slightly above average student down a challenging path. Grades aren't always "A's" even though we teach to mastery. I feel strongly about putting anything on the transcript that would call its integrity into question.  On the board, posters have said that it's better to see 2 AP classes with "A's" and 5's on the tests than more AP classes with a "B" or two and maybe fours or threes on the test.  Okay, but does that mean that the student's other classes are easy "A's." You only challenge in areas that you are sure to win in?

 

Now about the part on non-cookie cutter transcripts. For a woman with a penchant for out-of-the box threads, the transcript I've put together for ds is very traditional. With 4-5 classes of the foundational discipline, there is nothing like the "Nihilism and Parricide"  class I took in college. We've done some cool stuff within those standard class titles and I feel that my youngest's education is richer and deeper than his siblings, but I am unsure how to convey that.

 

Late in middle school, I thought for sure ds would have some wonderful entrepreneurial computer business going in high school, but the reality of taking challenging classes while pursuing athletics, and having only one speed - that of a dust bunny on a breezeless day- have left ds businessless, patentless, and rather ordinary.

 

So now, I am really anxious. We must have challenge, but APs are questionable and CC's have received some fairly bad press on this board, and university courses for a high school student are super expensive (where I am).  Pursuing "challenge" without a genius IQ has left little time for building rockets or developing new operating systems.  He'll finish high school with a decent GPA, decent test scores, hopefully a strong educational foundation, an interesting in learning, a varsity letter in swimming, sailing experiencing, coaching and work experience.  I feel like we have put an incredible amount of work in for the last eight years to stand in the middle of a no man's land.

 

But, perhaps I digress from the value of AP's. :tongue_smilie:

[Laura Corin]

I made the comment partly in relation to ideas like MBM mentioned, but also because Laura Corin has mentioned that GCSE's are approx the level of SAT II's and so then if the UK considers a 650 an A, then it is not quite the same as getting the top scores in SAT II's...not sure if I'm explaining clearly and have to run...

 

I think part of the issue is that there's a lot of 'room at the top' in UK grades.  An 'A' at GCSE would normally be 70% or so.  an A* (A+) would normally be 80% or more.  No one gets 100%.  That makes equivalence of grades (rather than content) hard to calculate.

[8filltheheart]

First, thank you for sharing the article. It was one of the more intelligent and informative articles that I have seen when homeschooling and college admissions are linked together.

 

"Challenge," "passion," and "singularity," are all rolled up into a twisted knot for me, which I find difficult to untangle.  Perhaps what complicates the untangling process is having a child that fits somewhere between the "average" and the "extraordinary' students that I read about on this board and in the media. This could probably be said for many of the students of board members.

 

Here, we find it difficult to pursue all three areas listed above at one time.

 

When we started high school, I didn't know that some colleges asked that students show that they continue to challenge themselves all through high school.  I just picked the level of challenge that I thought was appropriate for my son.  Since I had older kids in the public school, I compared their classes with the content of our home classes and tweaked where needed. The courses on ds's transcript that do not carry "AP" or "Honors" labels, worry me.  I have to count on college admissions staff knowing enough about curriculum to read between the lines on my course descriptions?  Will they really know that ds's home chemistry class was on a whole different level compared to the ps class?  They'll know that we used a college text, not a high school text and that we did twice the number of labs as is standard?

 

There are risks involved with pushing a slightly above average student down a challenging path. Grades aren't always "A's" even though we teach to mastery. I feel strongly about putting anything on the transcript that would call its integrity into question.  On the board, posters have said that it's better to see 2 AP classes with "A's" and 5's on the tests than more AP classes with a "B" or two and maybe fours or threes on the test.  Okay, but does that mean that the student's other classes are easy "A's." You only challenge in areas that you are sure to win in?

 

Now about the part on non-cookie cutter transcripts. For a woman with a penchant for out-of-the box threads, the transcript I've put together for ds is very traditional. With 4-5 classes of the foundational discipline, there is nothing like the "Nihilism and Parricide"  class I took in college. We've done some cool stuff within those standard class titles and I feel that my youngest's education is richer and deeper than his siblings, but I am unsure how to convey that.

 

Late in middle school, I thought for sure ds would have some wonderful entrepreneurial computer business going in high school, but the reality of taking challenging classes while pursuing athletics, and having only one speed - that of a dust bunny on a breezeless day- have left ds businessless, patentless, and rather ordinary.

 

So now, I am really anxious. We must have challenge, but APs are questionable and CC's have received some fairly bad press on this board, and university courses for a high school student are super expensive (where I am).  Pursuing "challenge" without a genius IQ has left little time for building rockets or developing new operating systems.  He'll finish high school with a decent GPA, decent test scores, hopefully a strong educational foundation, an interesting in learning, a varsity letter in swimming, sailing experiencing, coaching and work experience.  I feel like we have put an incredible amount of work in for the last eight years to stand in the middle of a no man's land.

 

But, perhaps I digress from the value of AP's. :tongue_smilie:

 

He doesn't sound like he is in no man's land to me.  :)

 

Your ds sounds like an accomplished student and athlete.  He doesn't sound at all like he will end up lost in the crowd.  He will distinguish himself b/c he is very well-rounded at a high level.  Those are stand-out qualities and that is a great place to be.

 

As far as passionate, challenge, and singularity, all I can share is my perception of those qualities as described. I  wouldn't say that it is something you can easily define nor can you create it, but somehow you know it when you see it and the student does it all on his own.  I don't think the essence is easily captured in words!  I have no idea if my ds would have been accepted into Stanford (I seriously doubt it), but I would never have used these words to describe my experience with him: "  I feel like we have put an incredible amount of work"

b/c it really wasn't.  It was simply normal for him and it was no more effort for me to teach him where he ended up than teach his sister who ended math with pre-cal and a pretty typical high school transcript.   Why?  Bc it was all him-driven.  I had little more to do than provide materials and offer some suggestions.  All of the work was on his end and for him it was pleasurable.  I am assuming that those kids they described in the article had similar personalities.  FWIW, none of my other kids, including my foreign language loving dd, possess the same qualities to the same degree.  It is quantifiably different when you are around it.   It is an energized passion for constant inquiry. 

 

I don't think the value of APs are questionable.  Obviously, if you are going after a specific goal/objective, they are a proven way to get there.  I think where I am coming from is that while it is a way, it isn't the only way. Many paths to demonstrated academic challenge exist.  It is the "proving" of the academic challenge that may present a challenge.  My current 10th grader refuses to take any APs.  ;)  We will present her authentically and what happens happens.  (Maybe the main difference is that I am not stressed about it.  I stressed last yr with ds.  It was for naught.  I am not doing it again.  I didn't stress with his older siblings and I am not going to with his younger ones!)

[swimmermom3]

I don't think the value of APs are questionable.  Obviously, if you are going after a specific goal/objective, they are a proven way to get there.  I think where I am coming from is that while it is a way, it isn't the only way. Many paths to demonstrated academic challenge exist.  It is the "proving" of the academic challenge that may present a challenge.  My current 10th grader refuses to take any APs.   ;)  We will present her authentically and what happens happens.  (Maybe the main difference is that I am not stressed about it.  I stressed last yr with ds.  It was for naught.  I am not doing it again.  I didn't stress with his older siblings and I am not going to with his younger ones!)

 

So how does one show "challenge" without the obvious AP or DE option?  What does that look like on a transcript or course description?

 

I think with certain disciplines, it can be easier, say for a math student whose transcript starts with geometry and ends with a calculus class (whether or not it is AP). I would think that this shows that the student progressively challenges himself.

 

On the other hand, perhaps one student with that progression, used standard high school texts and another student used AoPS.  Without test scores will admissions folks know that one was more challenging?  This is along the same lines as my chemistry question.

 

 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

Well, dd's not doing it in math or science. She is willing to take the subject tests for French and Latin. She has a teacher for Russian and starting soon, she will have one for French composition. Her reading list is rather unique. Beyond that, I have no idea at this point. But, she is not aiming for a select school, so it really doesnt matter. Once you drop down out of select, APs are pretty much unnecessary. If she wants a school in Canada, she will DE. That is a discussion for this summer.

[Grantmom]

 

When we started high school, I didn't know that some colleges asked that students show that they continue to challenge themselves all through high school.  I just picked the level of challenge that I thought was appropriate for my son.  Since I had older kids in the public school, I compared their classes with the content of our home classes and tweaked where needed. The courses on ds's transcript that do not carry "AP" or "Honors" labels, worry me.  I have to count on college admissions staff knowing enough about curriculum to read between the lines on my course descriptions?  Will they really know that ds's home chemistry class was on a whole different level compared to the ps class?  They'll know that we used a college text, not a high school text and that we did twice the number of labs as is standard?

 

 

I hear you, it's all so confusing.  With regard to the above, can't you just go back now and call that chem class Honors on his transcript?  If you feel like you took the material to a greater depth and provided a richer experience than a basic chem class, then that seems like the thing to do.  Honestly, it's so objective.  A "regular" chem class, vs honors, vs AP, are all going to be completely different from school to school and even from teacher to teacher.  Maybe that is why those test scores do have an impact.  Like someone said above, a student can have an A in AP Chem and then get a 2 on the exam.

[swimmermom3]

Well, dd's not doing it in math or science. She is willing to take the subject tests for French and Latin. She has a teacher for Russian and starting soon, she will have one for French composition. Her reading list is rather unique. Beyond that, I have no idea at this point. But, she is not aiming for a select school, so it really doesnt matter. Once you drop down out of select, APs are pretty much unnecessary. If she wants a school in Canada, she will DE. That is a discussion for this summer.

 

I think I am really lost now.  How do you define "select" exactly?

 

My Alma mater is a decent state school whose tuition has increased by 30% in the past two years.The other major sate school would be a poor fit in many respects, but it easier to get into and is cheaper. Homeschooled students are required to take two SAT subject tests with one of them being Math 1 or 2.

 

With our EFC, these schools are more expensive for us than some of the smaller private colleges like those mentioned in the 40 Colleges that Change Lives book. Of course, for the most part, the smaller private colleges have more stringent admissions requirements. Both the state schools and the private schools on the list are still asking for proof of "challenge" and one of the state schools does look at APs. Obviously these schools aren't Stanford or someplace like Connecticut College, but they aren't a basic state U either. Where is the "select" line?

 

And Eight, I do appreciate your time and patience. I still think I need more kids to practice this homeschooling thing on, but nobody here will lend me kid because they all think we are crazy for homeschooling high school. At least ds's friends at the school have the good sense to envy him. :tongue_smilie:

 

PS: Your dd's course of study sounds like so much fun. 

 

[regentrude]

So how does one show "challenge" without the obvious AP or DE option?  What does that look like on a transcript or course description?

 

I think with certain disciplines, it can be easier, say for a math student whose transcript starts with geometry and ends with a calculus class (whether or not it is AP). I would think that this shows that the student progressively challenges himself.

 

On the other hand, perhaps one student with that progression, used standard high school texts and another student used AoPS.  Without test scores will admissions folks know that one was more challenging? 

 

You can submit course descriptions that explain the materials used and level of coursework. That's what we did. I copied some information about the AoPS program form their website to explain.

 

Other ways to show challenge: participate in competitions, like the Grand Concourse (national French competition), National History Day, Science Olympiad

And again, the course descriptions and homeschool profile can be very helpful in explaining the student's special strengths.

You can list educational materials used, for example college textbooks or TC lectures or online courses. Of course, the college has to a) look at it and b.) take your word for it - so for a selective school, I'd back up at least part of the coursework by outside validation in form of DE or test scores.

[8filltheheart]

I dont know anything about schools on the west coast. With the exception of top publics like UVA, GT, etc, most publics are not going to expect APs for admissions. I dont know of any schools which require AP scores to be submitted for admissions. (Subject tests, yes. But APs, none that I am aware of.) Admissions at lower ranked schools is far more stats based--test scores, GPA,and minimum course requirements. Many do not require essays or LOR. It is a different application world for them.;)

 

The easiest thing to do is look at admission data and student profiles. That will give you the best answer. But the criteria shifts dramatically once you move beyond the competitive schools.

[8filltheheart]

Hi Lisa,

I was on my phone last night. Here are some data engines you can run, and by adjusting selectivity, you can see the lists modify.

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-search
http://www.collegeconfidential.com/college_search/
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/main/main_choose_tmpl.jhtml

Just to give you an idea,for the universities my kids have attended, no one has cared one iota about APs or DE for admission. All that has mattered is minimum test score and course requirements met. Where everything else has mattered is for honors and for institutional scholarships.

[MarkT]

IMHO AP courses are the upper level honors classes for those HS students (and parents thereof) who want to be reasonably challenged. They should be equivalent to a freshman level college course at a middle level university with the AP exam itself equal to a comprehensive final exam. If certain AP exams do not meet that criteria they should be phased out.