Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues

[merry gardens]

I wanted to thank you guys, because this conversation has helped my come a long way in understanding the perspective & thought processes of transgendered people, their loved ones and their allies. I really empathize with the pain and frustration being felt when they come up against a larger society that is so hostile and inhumane. I still don't understand what exactly is the essence of gender dysphoria.

 

Lets suppose I am a biological male Robin, who experiences gender dysphoria. What is it about being female that Robin wants to experience that he can't experience as a male? And what is it about being male that Robin doesn't want to experience?

 

From my perspective I see two differences between the sexes: societal & biological. Society seems to be quickly moving away from gender differences. Fashion is becoming more unisex, professions & leisure activities are open to both genders, men are becoming more comfortable being sensitive & nurturing, women are becoming more comfortable with being competitive & assertive. It doesn't seem that these societal differences are what is troubling transgendered persons. A lot of people are choosing not to fulfill the gender stereotype, while still being very happy as their gender. Transgender is clearly something else. In the theoretical world where males & females could engage in society without prejudice, would Robin still be unhappy as a male?

 

Does it boil down to the biological differences between the sexes: chromosomes, the physical body, the reproductive system and secondary sex characteristics? As science currently stands, chromosomes can't be changed; a MtF transgendered woman can't become pregnant & give birth, a FtM transgendered man will never produce sperm. (I do understand they can become parents.) This leaves the differences between men's & woman's bodies after puberty. Is it that the MtF transgendered person wants a slight, curvaceous physique, soft voice and a lack of body hair? If it were that, then why do prepubescent children, whose bodies are indistinguishable between the sexes apart from their genitals, experience gender dysphoria? That leaves the genitals. . . surely it is more that a woman wanting a penis. . . .

 

What is this deep, integral essence in the transgendered person that can't be expressed in their biological sex?

 

I genuinely mean no offense. I feel like I am on the cusp of an epiphany and just need one morsel of knowledge before I understand. I hope my question post is clear enough --- my thinking is muddled.

Thank you so very much Ananda for asking this! And thank you to those who responded to her questions with honesty.

 

The answers that others gave Ananda show that many, many people struggle to get our heads around this idea that gender and sex are different--and what exactly those differences are, few can really clearly express with clarity, if they even understand them at all. People constantly re-stating that gender and sex are different over and over again doesn't really help those of us who see gender and sex as virtual the same. And it really, really helps to read what Katie (Lucy Stoner)wrote about coming to terms with her own siblings transition, and how it didn't originally match-up with her own feminist viewpoints. She's worked through something I haven't been able to work through--and I don't know if I ever can work through that. It just doesn't make sense to me, and even with people's sincere attempt to answer Ananda's questions, it seems that it doesn't really make sense to many of you either.

 

Katie (Lucy Stoner), I don't think it's strict gender roles from people of faith that makes it hard to understand.  It would be much easier for me to understand gender dysphoria if I really did think that all women danced around wearing pink sparkly dresses and if I thought all men enjoyed wearing flannel shirts while rolling in the mud. Then, anyone wanting to do (dance/ wallow in mud) or wear (pink tutus vs flannel) could be assigned to the proper gender and the only confusion would be from people dancing in flannel or wearing tutus in the mud. (oops, based on that, there appear to be many, many confused five year olds!) I don't really think that way. That's not how I define what makes a person male or female. 

 

Male and female, to my way of thinking, serve a biological function. It's my understanding of science and physiology--not my religion--that gets in the way.  Males have the body parts that produce sperm and impregnate females, and females have the body parts that make eggs and get impregnated. It's a simplistic yet scientific way to understand male and female, but it's a scientific understanding of male and female that holds true for most mammals.  XX, XY, with an occasional genetic fluke--that's how I learned it in my science classes. Sometimes those reproductive parts get cut off for reasons such as disease. As I see it, a woman who has had a hysterectomy is still a woman, but some of you are saying that a person who has had a hysterectomy might really be a man. That doesn't match my understanding of science. It requires faith to accept that gender and sex aren't the same!

 

Some of us have a very, very, very, very difficult time taking that step of faith solely based on the word of the current mental health professionals, just as I don't simply accept on faith what every minister says just because that minister holds a theological degree. The mental health industry used to lobotomize people in the name of mental health--and now they want to cut off sexual organs, again in the name of mental health.

 

The real question that our society no longer knows how to answer is: what is a woman and what is a man? Apart from the roles that male and female bodies play in reproduction, no one seems to have a way of answering that question to my satisfaction. It's not charity that I lack--it's faith. Tell me, how I'm suppose to believe something that I simply don't believe?

[Xuzi]

I don't think it takes faith to believe in gender diaphoria. I've never experienced depression, but I believe it exists because I've seen the "fruits" of it in some people on my life. Likewise, Lucy Stoner has seen the fruits of gender disphoria in her brother's life: the massive depression and suicidal thoughts he lived with prior to reassignment, and the happy, stable life he's lived post-reassignment. And it's a pattern seen many times over in the lives of transgendered persons.

 

I don't believe this is something mental health specialists have pulled out of a hat because they so love removing body parts.

[texasmama]

Thank you so very much Ananda for asking this! And thank you to those who responded to her questions with honesty.

 

The answers that others gave Ananda show that many, many people struggle to get our heads around this idea that gender and sex are different--and what exactly those differences are, few can really clearly express with clarity, if they even understand them at all. People constantly re-stating that gender and sex are different over and over again doesn't really help those of us who see gender and sex as virtual the same. And it really, really helps to read what Katie (Lucy Stoner)wrote about coming to terms with her own siblings transition, and how it didn't originally match-up with her own feminist viewpoints. She's worked through something I haven't been able to work through--and I don't know if I ever can work through that. It just doesn't make sense to me, and even with people's sincere attempt to answer Ananda's questions, it seems that it doesn't really make sense to many of you either.

 

Katie (Lucy Stoner), I don't think it's strict gender roles from people of faith that makes it hard to understand.  It would be much easier for me to understand gender dysphoria if I really did think that all women danced around wearing pink sparkly dresses and if I thought all men enjoyed wearing flannel shirts while rolling in the mud. Then, anyone wanting to do (dance/ wallow in mud) or wear (pink tutus vs flannel) could be assigned to the proper gender and the only confusion would be from people dancing in flannel or wearing tutus in the mud. (oops, based on that, there appear to be many, many confused five year olds!) I don't really think that way. That's not how I define what makes a person male or female. 

 

Male and female, to my way of thinking, serve a biological function. It's my understanding of science and physiology--not my religion--that gets in the way.  Males have the body parts that produce sperm and impregnate females, and females have the body parts that make eggs and get impregnated. It's a simplistic yet scientific way to understand male and female, but it's a scientific understanding of male and female that holds true for most mammals.  XX, XY, with an occasional genetic fluke--that's how I learned it in my science classes. Sometimes those reproductive parts get cut off for reasons such as disease. As I see it, a woman who has had a hysterectomy is still a woman, but some of you are saying that a person who has had a hysterectomy might really be a man. That doesn't match my understanding of science. It requires faith to accept that gender and sex aren't the same!

 

Some of us have a very, very, very, very difficult time taking that step of faith solely based on the word of the current mental health professionals, just as I don't simply accept on faith what every minister says just because that minister holds a theological degree. The mental health industry used to lobotomize people in the name of mental health--and now they want to cut off sexual organs, again in the name of mental health.

 

The real question that our society no longer knows how to answer is: what is a woman and what is a man? Apart from the roles that male and female bodies play in reproduction, no one seems to have a way of answering that question to my satisfaction. It's not charity that I lack--it's faith. Tell me, how I'm suppose to believe something that I simply don't believe?

I understand and relate to much of your post.  This is a confusing topic, and I struggle to understand it, as well.  I do accept that I will likely not completely understand due to lack of experience so I approach it (as anything else I am not personally familiar with) by carefully listening to how other people experience this.

 

I want to address the piece of your post dealing with mental health professionals.  The DSM is a collection of diagnoses.  The diagnoses are based on collections of symptoms.  These diagnoses change every few years based on many factors, including the political climate (for lack of better terminology).  Because mental health is not as objective as physical health, there are biases - and the diagnoses change over time.  The diagnosis of uterine cancer is pretty straightforward.  The diagnosis of autism or anxiety is more subjective. 

 

Here is a quote taken from the below article regarding the contributors to the DSM:

 

APA recruited more than 160 of the top researchers and clinicians from around the world to be members of our DSM-5 Task Force, Work Groups and Study Groups for this important job. These are experts in neuroscience, biology, genetics, statistics, epidemiology, social and behavioral sciences, nosology, and public health.  These members participate on a strictly voluntary basis and encompass several medical and mental health disciplines including psychiatry, psychology, pediatrics, nursing and social work.

 

Article: http://www.dsm5.org/Pages/Default.aspx

 

Mental health professionals do not want to cut off sexual organs in the name of mental health.  People who are transgendered sometimes want to "cut off sexual organs" (simplified explanation) to improve their mental health and life experiences, to bring their bodies in line with their identities.  The DSM and the medical and mental health communities have responded (in the DSM and through the medical community which is involved with gender reassignment surgery) to a group of people who present as transgendered and have significant distress as a result of this.  Lobotomies were done TO people, often against their will.  Gender reassignment surgery is completely voluntary and is done only at the request of the individual.  The process to undergo the treatments and surgeries is lengthy and involved and expensive.  It does and should involve mental health evaluation.

 

I will stop there because I do not have extensive knowledge of the gender reassignment process, but I wanted to contribute that to the dialog.

[Haiku]

I had pretty fixed ideas about gender being cultural until I gave birth to a daughter and adopted a son. My dd was 2 when my ds, who was also 2, joined our family. My son was raised in two different orphanages before he came to us. One was the stereotypical "huge room full of rows of cribs," where he sat, day in and day out, occasionally getting his diaper changed or fed a bottle. He was not given the opportunity to play or develop a culturally dictated gender identity. In the second orphanage, which was better, he was routinely dressed in girl clothes, as the nannies simply pulled a shirt and pants off the shelf and put them on the kids. The first day we spent with our son, he was wearing ruffled Minnie Mouse pants and a pink t-shirt. All kids played with the same toys. He was in a toddler room, and all the kids were treated the same way. They had a few gender non-specific toys, a swingset, and a merry-go-round. There was nothing specifically gendered about his life.

 

When he came to us, his favorite activity was crashing cars together. He'd never had cars in the orphanage, but somehow he knew them and loved them from moment one. My dd, who has grown up to be a hockey-playing tomboy scientist, was never interested in cars. I noticed right away that there were differences in my son and my daughter. My son is a boy--every part of his body and brain indicate boy. The contrast to even my very-tomboy daughter is stark. Although my dd is not at all stereotypically girly, there is nothing about her that is traditionally masculine. Although her choice of clothing, interests, and activities is of the traditionally more masculine type, there is nothing boyish about her.

 

I believe that my son is a boy because his brain tells him he is and my daughter is a girl because her brain tells her she is. It's honestly not at all hard for me to see a difference between physiological sex and mental gender; it seems logical to me that they are different and can have different expressions. I see it as biologically and brain-chemistry based, and it seems completely reasonable to me that they processes that shaped the body in utero and the processes that shape the brain's understanding of who it is are separate, to some degree, and may not align in the way that we consider to be traditional or "normal."

[TracyP]

merry gardens, I agreed with your post until right here:

 

 It requires faith to accept that gender and sex aren't the same!

 

Some of us have a very, very, very, very difficult time taking that step of faith solely based on the word of the current mental health professionals, just as I don't simply accept on faith what every minister says just because that minister holds a theological degree. The mental health industry used to lobotomize people in the name of mental health--and now they want to cut off sexual organs, again in the name of mental health.

 

 

This isn't about faith in mental health professionals. This is about believing another human being's personal experience. I do not get the mentality behind being transgender. at. all. But I believe others when they say that *for them* gender and sex are not the same. The same way I believe my friend that has depression. When she tells me that some days it is hard to get out of bed, I want to say, "You need to drink a big glass of water and get some fresh air. Works for me every time." It is very hard for me to understand depression, but I don't have to understand it to believe her.

 

It's not charity that I lack--it's faith. Tell me, how I'm suppose to believe something that I simply don't believe?

 

 

If I wasn't willing to take others at their word, I would not believe in phantom limbs, depression, chronic fatigue syndrome, or fibromyalgia - just to name a few. All these diagnoses rely on people telling a medical professional what they are feeling. Of course, some people do not believe in things like CFS or depression because they just can't wrap their head around it. Maybe you are one of them. For me, it is enough to take somebody at their word.

[LucyStoner]

Merry gardens, thank you for your post.

 

For me it is not faith to see gender and biological sex as different. I have seen how they aren't the same (and beyond just my brother) with my own eyes. Empirical evidence. That's the very opposite of faith. I see how people fit into different genders even when they have the same biological sex.

 

I've posted it before but here it is again:

 

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2012/03/the-genderbread-person-v2-0/

[Ravin]

I think it would for some people. Our gender roles are so ingrained that people just can't have a chance to figure out who they are. They are assigned "boy" or "girl" at birth and society expects that to define some huge percentage of who they are. I wish kids could say, "I'm Elizabeth Sutton Smith and this is who I am," and be unique individuals with whatever dress, careers, hobbies, etc. they choose.

 

I really think a society like that would clear up issues for some and stop muddying the waters for others.

 

I think true transgender* kids have more going on biologically, so I'm not sure continuum is right. I really hope this isn't offensive, but I've been mulling it in my head. I have autoimmune issues that affect every facet of my life. Part of my body is trying to kill the other part. Somehow I wonder if it is similar, one might have XY, but the rest of the chemistry in the body (maybe something we don't understand yet, maye something from the womb) says XX so the body is at war, a bit like mine. Because it seems that the bits and parts are important, but not as important as the overall feel of everything being wrong.

 

I don't know if my analogy holds weight (conceptually or medically), but we all try to understand these things through the lens of our experience. I know that if medical science could find a solution for me, I'd be mighty ticked off if someone said that it wasn't OK for me to be treated because God made me this way.

 

*Rereading I'm pretty sure "true transgender" is not the right phrase, but I just mean those who need more than crossdressing and not comforming to societal norms. I don't have all the terms right yet, so I'm thinking I might not be being polite to those who feel in between. Anyone have a better phrase?

I actually think this is a pretty good analogy, and spectrum is right because the severity of dysphoria is different from one person to another.

 

The word you are looking for is transsexual.

[Ravin]

Thank you so very much Ananda for asking this! And thank you to those who responded to her questions with honesty.

 

The answers that others gave Ananda show that many, many people struggle to get our heads around this idea that gender and sex are different--and what exactly those differences are, few can really clearly express with clarity, if they even understand them at all. People constantly re-stating that gender and sex are different over and over again doesn't really help those of us who see gender and sex as virtual the same. And it really, really helps to read what Katie (Lucy Stoner)wrote about coming to terms with her own siblings transition, and how it didn't originally match-up with her own feminist viewpoints. She's worked through something I haven't been able to work through--and I don't know if I ever can work through that. It just doesn't make sense to me, and even with people's sincere attempt to answer Ananda's questions, it seems that it doesn't really make sense to many of you either.

 

Katie (Lucy Stoner), I don't think it's strict gender roles from people of faith that makes it hard to understand. It would be much easier for me to understand gender dysphoria if I really did think that all women danced around wearing pink sparkly dresses and if I thought all men enjoyed wearing flannel shirts while rolling in the mud. Then, anyone wanting to do (dance/ wallow in mud) or wear (pink tutus vs flannel) could be assigned to the proper gender and the only confusion would be from people dancing in flannel or wearing tutus in the mud. (oops, based on that, there appear to be many, many confused five year olds!) I don't really think that way. That's not how I define what makes a person male or female.

 

Male and female, to my way of thinking, serve a biological function. It's my understanding of science and physiology--not my religion--that gets in the way. Males have the body parts that produce sperm and impregnate females, and females have the body parts that make eggs and get impregnated. It's a simplistic yet scientific way to understand male and female, but it's a scientific understanding of male and female that holds true for most mammals. XX, XY, with an occasional genetic fluke--that's how I learned it in my science classes. Sometimes those reproductive parts get cut off for reasons such as disease. As I see it, a woman who has had a hysterectomy is still a woman, but some of you are saying that a person who has had a hysterectomy might really be a man. That doesn't match my understanding of science. It requires faith to accept that gender and sex aren't the same!

 

Some of us have a very, very, very, very difficult time taking that step of faith solely based on the word of the current mental health professionals, just as I don't simply accept on faith what every minister says just because that minister holds a theological degree. The mental health industry used to lobotomize people in the name of mental health--and now they want to cut off sexual organs, again in the name of mental health.

 

The real question that our society no longer knows how to answer is: what is a woman and what is a man? Apart from the roles that male and female bodies play in reproduction, no one seems to have a way of answering that question to my satisfaction. It's not charity that I lack--it's faith. Tell me, how I'm suppose to believe something that I simply don't believe?

At the end of the day, it's okay not to really understand the distinction between sex and gender. Even some trans people don't, and we invariably spend a lot of time thinking about and agonizing over it.

 

What's important is just accepting that for some people, what was assigned to them at birth isn't what/who they really are, and having the respect and social space, legal avenues and medical support available for them to make the changes they need to make to be healthy.

 

Not that there's anything wrong with wanting to understand. It's just not necessary to acceptance and support.

[SporkUK]

I don't think accepting the concept of being transgender or not being ones assigned gender has to do with belief but about respecting people's perspective, wider representation of often destroyed voices, and a far better grasp of the medical history and science behind assigned gender, gender identity, and human biology that are often diluted and taken for grated when really it causes a lot of damage. 

 

Almost all people's assigned gender is based on a medical professional's opinion on a baby's genitals at birth based on tradition. Nothing to do biological chromosomes - the vast majority of people don't even know what their chromosomes are, the test to do it so rarely done, and even in the cases where it is done it doesn't rule out mosaic (a person can have different sets of genes in different parts of the body). We have people with XY chromosomes who present and are assigned female at birth [androgen insensitivity], there are XXY, XXX, XYY,, and so on in karotypes that if assigned gender was based on 'biological sex', we'd have several more than the Western binary allows now.

 

In cases of intersex infants with ambiguous genitals in countries that still rely legally on the binary (and intersex people are genetically as rare as redheads so this isn't some unknown), these traditions are what will push said baby into one of the two categories and has particularly in the last 100 years or so has resulted in drastic, horrendous surgeries to fit into this binary as well as intersex children assigned as female going through what many describe as torturous exams and 'vaginal stretchers' from prepuberty in order fit into a sexual concept for others (aka, so the intersex child who has been assigned female can take a penis when older). This is what the gender binary, lack of science on the range of human bodies and experiences, and the idea that people who are assigned a gender *are* that gender and what it takes to fit it has done. 

 

Assigned gender is a big social construct that has a major impact on the world (like money, race, and so on). There is research that shows that the difference in how one talks, holds, and perceives a child of a particular assigned gender happens basically immediately - there are differences in treatments shown in the delivery room and by medical professionals, the socialization is from the start. The gender binary is not a universal concept - many cultures worldwide have far more genders and during Western colonization many people of those genders were murdered for going outside of the Western gender binary - many are trying to rebuild these traditions and explore further ranges as human experience and discussion about our identities continues. Even animals, so much of Western science's time has been trying to put animals into those two categories and they just don't know and I think we need to accept there is more range than in Western tradition. 

 

People are born babies, genders are assigned based on genital appearance and I find it sad that so many still think that that is such a key determiner to so much about a person when socialization research, biology, and the range of human experience from many many voices and communities have shown the gender is a lot more complicated than the M or F box on a certificate or their physical parts. I think exploring gender ideas is a good thing, not something to be humored or just does no harm, but is a good thing to actively do and at least mentally go through the range of humanity and possibilities and empathize with them. With my children, we discuss gender, the range of gender and the possibilities, and these have led to a lot of interesting conversations and exploration especially within a community and family with a lot of gender experiences.  

 

I would call the them name and pronouns they want as I would anyone else whose genitals and birth certificate I didn't know because I think that's respectful and I would want my children to show that kind of respect to another. 

[texasmama]

At the end of the day, it's okay not to really understand the distinction between sex and gender. Even some trans people don't, and we invariably spend a lot of time thinking about and agonizing over it.

 

What's important is just accepting that for some people, what was assigned to them at birth isn't what/who they really are, and having the respect and social space, legal avenues and medical support available for them to make the changes they need to make to be healthy.

 

Not that there's anything wrong with wanting to understand. It's just not necessary to acceptance and support.

Would you agree that sex is more about one's male/female physical characteristics and gender is more about mental alignment with the experience of being  male/female?  Trying to boil it down simplistically so I can better understand it myself.  This is what I have come up with so far. 

[Ananda]

I had pretty fixed ideas about gender being cultural until I gave birth to a daughter and adopted a son. My dd was 2 when my ds, who was also 2, joined our family. My son was raised in two different orphanages before he came to us. One was the stereotypical "huge room full of rows of cribs," where he sat, day in and day out, occasionally getting his diaper changed or fed a bottle. He was not given the opportunity to play or develop a culturally dictated gender identity. In the second orphanage, which was better, he was routinely dressed in girl clothes, as the nannies simply pulled a shirt and pants off the shelf and put them on the kids. The first day we spent with our son, he was wearing ruffled Minnie Mouse pants and a pink t-shirt. All kids played with the same toys. He was in a toddler room, and all the kids were treated the same way. They had a few gender non-specific toys, a swingset, and a merry-go-round. There was nothing specifically gendered about his life.

 

When he came to us, his favorite activity was crashing cars together. He'd never had cars in the orphanage, but somehow he knew them and loved them from moment one. My dd, who has grown up to be a hockey-playing tomboy scientist, was never interested in cars. I noticed right away that there were differences in my son and my daughter. My son is a boy--every part of his body and brain indicate boy. The contrast to even my very-tomboy daughter is stark. Although my dd is not at all stereotypically girly, there is nothing about her that is traditionally masculine. Although her choice of clothing, interests, and activities is of the traditionally more masculine type, there is nothing boyish about her.

 

I believe that my son is a boy because his brain tells him he is and my daughter is a girl because her brain tells her she is. It's honestly not at all hard for me to see a difference between physiological sex and mental gender; it seems logical to me that they are different and can have different expressions. I see it as biologically and brain-chemistry based, and it seems completely reasonable to me that they processes that shaped the body in utero and the processes that shape the brain's understanding of who it is are separate, to some degree, and may not align in the way that we consider to be traditional or "normal."

 

This is very interesting to me.  I have two sons 2 & 5, both very boyish.  They like cars and rough housing.  I was surprised how much boyishness they seemed to come with.  I don't have any tom-boy girls to compare.  I always assumed they would be very similar, especially as preschoolers.  There is nothing stopping girls from playing with cars, if they were so inclined.  

 

That which is so clear to you, the differences among social norms, gender and sex, isn't at all to me.  You say its obvious, but it isn't.  It was helpful to learn that I am not alone in my confusion.  People who are close to those who are transgendered tell me they don't quite get it either.  It is reassuring.  I agree with the pp that perhaps it is something you have to take on faith.  Although I would say faith, not in psychologists, but in the real live transgendered people.  I believe that they have to transition to lead fulfilled lives, because that is what they say.   

[Pam in CT]

A is for asexual

 

 

Sounds like an alphabet book. When Mergath writes it, I'll buy two copies.

 

Aww... maybe you and Mergath could collaborate.  Maybe you could throw in a geographical focus as well.  Maybe Peace Hill Press could publish it.

 

 

A is for Asexual... and Austraila

 

B is for Bisexual... and Botswana

 

...

[TranquilMind]

The objective fact that you have repeatedly stated that transgender people, myself included, are either delusional or lying. That constitutes insult whether I am personally offended or not, something several others with no dog in the fight have pointed out.

The objective fact is that I believe that you believe you are what you assert that you are, as I stated.

 

I don't think you are lying. 

 

Whether you are delusional or not is a matter of whether the facts line up with your beliefs, and who is making the call and for what purpose. 

[TranquilMind]

Aww... maybe you and Mergath could collaborate.  Maybe you could throw in a geographical focus as well.  Maybe Peace Hill Press could publish it.

 

 

A is for Asexual... and Austraila

 

B is for Bisexual... and Botswana

 

...

There is probably a term for every letter by now.  Or will be soon.

[TranquilMind]

Leelah didn't get to choose. That's part of the problem.

Au contraire.  This young person DID choose to commit suicide, which precludes other choices later. 

[TranquilMind]

Not if your child was transgender you wouldn't, based on what you have said.

Ok.  I'm sure you know me better than I do. 

[TranquilMind]

Since she was four. Not "a year or two."

The entire family - the parents and the three siblings - were just informed a year or two ago, according to the posts. 

[Pam in CT]

My daughter and I use something called a P-Style to stand to pee. We're not trans. We do live in a country with awful, awful, awful public restrooms that you really don't want to touch with any part of your body. I love it. It's good for when you're hiking as well. 

 

Yet another surprising example of Universal Design advantages to unexpected populations...

[Pam in CT]

I don't think it takes faith to believe in gender diaphoria. I've never experienced depression, but I believe it exists because I've seen the "fruits" of it in some people on my life. Likewise, Lucy Stoner has seen the fruits of gender disphoria in her brother's life: the massive depression and suicidal thoughts he lived with prior to reassignment, and the happy, stable life he's lived post-reassignment. And it's a pattern seen many times over in the lives of transgendered persons.

 

I don't believe this is something mental health specialists have pulled out of a hat because they so love removing body parts.

 

It was bound to happen: this is the post on which I came to the end of my "likes" ration...

[Pam in CT]

I've learned a great deal from this (and related) threads.  I don't have anything to add, except to express thanks to those who've shared their experiences and helped me to glimpse these issues from another perspective.

[Haiku]

That which is so clear to you, the differences among social norms, gender and sex, isn't at all to me.  You say its obvious, but it isn't.  

 

I actually never said it was obvious, and my intention was not to make it seem like since it makes sense to me, it should (obviously) make sense to everyone. Several people posted that they can't wrap their minds around sex and gender being different. I can, and I was trying to explain how or why that is. That's why I said "for me" and "to me" and not "for you and everyone else" or "to you and everyone else."

[Rosie_0801]

There is a definite difference between boys and girls.

 

Girls hug like fairy floss.

Boys hug like bulldog clips.

 

Or at least mine did. :D

[Amy in NH]

Snips and snails and puppy dog tails; that's what little boys are made of.

 

Sugar and spice and everything nice; that's what little girls are made of.

[Ravin]

The objective fact is that I believe that you believe you are what you assert that you are, as I stated.

 

I don't think you are lying.

 

Whether you are delusional or not is a matter of whether the facts line up with your beliefs, and who is making the call and for what purpose.

Do you not grasp how incredibly condescending saying "I believe you believe x" is? We aren't talking about religion or philosophy, we're talking about a medical condition.

 

"I believe you believe you are depressed."

"I believe you believe you are in pain."

"I believe you believe you experience nausea in the morning during pregnancy even though you don't vomit."

 

Gender dysphoria is not a delusional disorder. It is a mental disorder arising from a mismatch between the brain and other body parts associated with sex/gender. The part that is wrong is the other body parts, not the brain.

[Ravin]

Au contraire. This young person DID choose to commit suicide, which precludes other choices later.

She was in an irrational mental state exascerbated by not being given choices about her life.

 

Let me ask you this. If your teenager came to you and told you they might be transgender or were having gender issues or questioning their gender, and asked to see a gender therapist, would you take that child to a gender therapist with experience helping teens navigate these issues, or would you take your child to a Christian reparative therapist?

[Ravin]

The entire family - the parents and the three siblings - were just informed a year or two ago, according to the posts.

She was struggling much longer. It was her struggle first. When she discovered the reason for it and that there was help available, she asked her parents to get her to that help. Instead they punished her and took her to a quack whose therapy model has been shown through actual scientific research to make her type of issue worse, not better.

[Ravin]

Snips and snails and puppy dog tails; that's what little boys are made of.

 

Sugar and spice and everything nice; that's what little girls are made of.

I never understood what was not nice about snakes and snails and puppy dog tails.

[Rosie_0801]

I never understood what was not nice about snakes and snails and puppy dog tails.

 

I learned the rhyme as slugs and snails, and I didn't know why boys weren't also made of nice things. 

 

Now I've had a boy, I think they might really be made of puppy dog tails. They are waggy sorts of critters. :)

[TranquilMind]

She was in an irrational mental state exascerbated by not being given choices about her life.

 

Let me ask you this. If your teenager came to you and told you they might be transgender or were having gender issues or questioning their gender, and asked to see a gender therapist, would you take that child to a gender therapist with experience helping teens navigate these issues, or would you take your child to a Christian reparative therapist?

I would take a child where he wanted to go, at least for a try, because let's face it, uncooperative people get nothing out of any offer.  If there was no help there, I would try something else. 

[TranquilMind]

She was struggling much longer. It was her struggle first. When she discovered the reason for it and that there was help available, she asked her parents to get her to that help. Instead they punished her and took her to a quack whose therapy model has been shown through actual scientific research to make her type of issue worse, not better.

Really? You have the therapist's name and credentials?

I never saw that. 

[TranquilMind]

Do you not grasp how incredibly condescending saying "I believe you believe x" is? We aren't talking about religion or philosophy, we're talking about a medical condition.

 

"I believe you believe you are depressed."

"I believe you believe you are in pain."

"I believe you believe you experience nausea in the morning during pregnancy even though you don't vomit."

 

Gender dysphoria is not a delusional disorder. It is a mental disorder arising from a mismatch between the brain and other body parts associated with sex/gender. The part that is wrong is the other body parts, not the brain.

Ok. 

 

If there is contrary evidence to any of the above, I would question that.  If a kid says that he is in great pain, but is laughing and running around playing, maybe he isn't. 

 

Not going to debate this with you, though I welcome substantive comments. 

[Ravin]

Really? You have the therapist's name and credentials?

I never saw that.

I don't need to see credentials to know that all reparative therapists who purport to cure or fix gay or trans people and make them straight/cis again are quacks. That practice model has been banned in several states for solid, evidence based reasons.

[Ravin]

I would take a child where he wanted to go, at least for a try, because let's face it, uncooperative people get nothing out of any offer. If there was no help there, I would try something else.

And would you consider it help if it helped your child in their own mind, or only if the solution stays within what you see as acceptable within your religious beliefs?

[TranquilMind]

I don't need to see credentials to know that all reparative therapists who purport to cure or fix gay or trans people and make them straight/cis again are quacks. That practice model has been banned in several states for solid, evidence based reasons.

So you have no idea who it was, no idea if it was a licensed professional, but because the troubled kid says that the counselor didn't say what the kid wanted to hear, the counselor  is automatically a quack.  Gotcha.

 

Joanne Can be a pro, regardless of her vehement disagreement with X behaviors, and can still treat those people, but this counselor, who remains unknown and unnamed could not possibly be a pro as well.

 

Got it. 

[TranquilMind]

And would you consider it help if it helped your child in their own mind, or only if the solution stays within what you see as acceptable within your religious beliefs?

Well, I would prefer someone not to forcefully contradict our faith, but neutral is fine - and Joanne says pros can be neutral, so I have to give this person benefit of the doubt, absent any evidence it was not a professional.  You can't merely judge from the results, or no therapist would ever lose a patient.

 

 I can't really answer this question; it would depend on what was going on, and whether that objectively was better or not.  Alive is better than dead, so if those are my options -which I do not think are the limits in most of these cases- then we go with alive. 

[Χά�ων]

Ok.

 

If there is contrary evidence to any of the above, I would question that. If a kid says that he is in great pain, but is laughing and running around playing, maybe he isn't.

 

Not going to debate this with you, though I welcome substantive comments.

Thank all the gods you are not my sons medical doctor. Yes, children who live in pain can and do get up and run around and play with other children. Adults in chronic pain get up, go to work and raise families.

 

Your example shows me how uneducated you are on medical issues beyond just this topic. Any shred of respect I may have had for you is now gone. Your ignorant statement and assumption that because a child can do X they are not in pain has caused a great deal of children pain, including my son. You should be ashamed to speak on topics which you know nothing about.

[Katy]

Wow, go out of town without your laptop for a few days and it's amazing how a thread can turn.  Catching up on reading this has been very informative.  I have a distant cousin that was born intersex; I'm under the impression that it's much more common than most people think, and now that more genetic tests are being done it has been found that some people's physical gender doesn't match their genetic gender and they had no idea.

 

I was also under the impression that the current theory regarding gender is that there are several different periods of hormone flooding during pregnancy and it's thought that they each influence physical gender, gender identity, and sexual preference; so a person is born who they are (or who they will be, once they are old enough to understand such things).  Is that not the case?  

[Tanaqui]

because the troubled kid says that the counselor didn't say what the kid wanted to hear, the counselor  is automatically a quack.  Gotcha.

 

If the "counselor" said what is reported, then yes, they are a quack, and also a bad person.

[I.Dup.]

Haven't read any of the replies, and I don't know what I'd do if my child seemed really serious about becoming a different gender, that's not something we've experienced in the least. One of my boys is more feminine, and that's fine with us. He wore high heels and played with dolls when he was little, we didn't bat an eye (okay, maybe dh did). If they started talking about wanting to be a different gender on a regular basis or wanting us to call them a different gender's name? Not sure.

 

I will say I think Angelina has been grooming Shiloh for this since she was tiny. I have thought this for years, ever since I saw what outfits they dressed her in as a newborn. I still remember the People cover where they revealed her after she was born. They clearly have tried to masculinate her for a long, long time.

[Dmmetler]

I never understood what was not nice about snakes and snails and puppy dog tails.

 

My DD would rather have the snakes and snails than the sugar and spice--although she does like making candy.

[Mrs Mungo]

I will say I think Angelina has been grooming Shiloh for this since she was tiny. I have thought this for years, ever since I saw what outfits they dressed her in as a newborn. I still remember the People cover where they revealed her after she was born. They clearly have tried to masculinate her for a long, long time.

Really? When I search, I mostly see photos of her in little dresses like this:

http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2008/gallery/shiloh_jolie_pitt/shiloh_jolie_pitt.jpg

 

Until she hits maybe four-ish, which is an age that most kids start to express their own opinions about what they wear. I haven't actually seen much evidence that Shiloh is trans beyond preferring pants to dresses, which is not evidence of being trans at all.

[Joanne]

So you have no idea who it was, no idea if it was a licensed professional, but because the troubled kid says that the counselor didn't say what the kid wanted to hear, the counselor  is automatically a quack.  Gotcha.

 

Joanne Can be a pro, regardless of her vehement disagreement with X behaviors, and can still treat those people, but this counselor, who remains unknown and unnamed could not possibly be a pro as well.

 

Got it. 

 

I asked you to stop.

 

I am reporting this post. I just want to be direct and explicit.

[Catwoman]

Really? When I search, I mostly see photos of her in little dresses like this:

http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2008/gallery/shiloh_jolie_pitt/shiloh_jolie_pitt.jpg

 

Until she hits maybe four-ish, which is an age that most kids start to express their own opinions about what they wear. I haven't actually seen much evidence that Shiloh is trans beyond preferring pants to dresses, which is not evidence of being trans at all.

:iagree:

 

I won't think of Shiloh Pitt as anything but a girl until either she or her parents tell us otherwise. No child should have to deal with the kinds of accusations and assumptions that seem to be spiraling around the media and the internet, simply because she chose to wear a suit to a public event.

 

It's awful. She is just a child. People should stop speculating about her and just leave her alone.

[TranquilMind]

I asked you to stop.

 

I am reporting this post. I just want to be direct and explicit.

Stop what?  Reporting what?  Did I curse or name call?  No, that's not my wheelhouse here. 

 

Stop summarizing the numerous assumptions made?  No one knows who the counselor was but the family, to my knowledge.  If someone indeed knows said counselor is  indeed a quack and lacks the required credentials, please enlighten me as to the facts. 

 

Otherwise, assumptions are being made. 

[TranquilMind]

If the "counselor" said what is reported, then yes, they are a quack, and also a bad person.

If, if, if....

 

If the counselor said this...

 

If the counselor lacks credentials....

 

If the counselor lacks professionalism ....

 

We don't know.  That is my point.  We only know results, which may have occurred regardless.  Or not.

 

All speculation.  The only thing we do know is how the kid felt at the time the post was written.  

[Tanaqui]

If, if, if....

 

If the counselor said this...

 

If the counselor lacks credentials....

 

If the counselor lacks professionalism ....

 

We don't know.  That is my point.  We only know results, which may have occurred regardless.  Or not.

 

All speculation.  The only thing we do know is how the kid felt at the time the post was written.  

 

And you'd rather assert, on the basis of no evidence, that she was lying or mistaken about her own experiences.

 

Except she also posted elsewhere on the internet, BEFORE she took her life. Those stories match up.

 

Except a neighbor went on twitter and confirmed much of what she said. That matches up.

 

Except - and this, really, is crucial - her story is very similar to that of other transgender individuals. Sure, she could've just made up a story that matched that of other transgender teens, but the odds are against it. (And if you're going to say "Well, she could have copied their stories!", spare me. It's equally likely or more so that if she was not subjected to this sort of thing, that reading about other people's experiences would have made her less depressed, because she was comparatively better off.)

 

She didn't just say "I feel this, I feel that", she said "The counselors said this and that".

 

And if you're going to say "Well, depression, it warps your perceptions!", again, spare me. Transgender individuals are much more likely to attempt suicide than non-trans individuals - but, shocker, the suicide rate goes down significantly when they get acceptance from family and friends, which suggests that the depression and suicide rate aren't an inherent part of being transgender but a direct result of poor treatment from others. Which, I don't know, seems to logically indicate that it is more likely that the "therapy" caused the depression than that the depression caused her to have a bad memory of perfectly-adequate-therapy.

[Joanne]

Stop what?  Reporting what?  Did I curse or name call?  No, that's not my wheelhouse here. 

 

Stop summarizing the numerous assumptions made?  No one knows who the counselor was but the family, to my knowledge.  If someone indeed knows said counselor is  indeed a quack and lacks the required credentials, please enlighten me as to the facts. 

 

Otherwise, assumptions are being made. 

 

If your point is that assumptions are being made about the credentials/lack of credentials of the professionals in this case, let that stand as your point. If THAT is your point, your call out and naming of me is non-responsive, and personal, and superfluous.

 

Because what you **posted** was:

 

 

So you have no idea who it was, no idea if it was a licensed professional, but because the troubled kid says that the counselor didn't say what the kid wanted to hear, the counselor  is automatically a quack.  Gotcha.

 

Joanne Can be a pro, regardless of her vehement disagreement with X behaviors, and can still treat those people, but this counselor, who remains unknown and unnamed could not possibly be a pro as well.

 

Got it.

 

 

Which is exactly the kind of call out and reference you've done repeatedly across threads. The kind of mention I asked, courteously, that you stop.

 

Yet, 2 days later, you did AGAIN.

 

The history of this thread is that YOU brought up my credentials; I did not. When you did, I used the reference to add to the content of the thread  by discussing the ethics involved with regard to a licensed mental health professional in this case. I did not reference YOU, or even your style.

 

I wrote about how a licensed professional would be ethically required to refer trans issues as a specialty. Content which was 1) on topic 2) appropriate and 3) you ignored.

 

You have repeatedly referenced me in threads, including some verbiage regarding how I don't know your background, credentials, and education because you don't broadcast your stuff all over the place.

 

I asked you to stop; You did not.  It was a reasonable request. I would rather not take my time to go through the multiple threads in which you did this to me, but if you don't stop posting about me personally, I will and I will present the case to SWB and the moderators.

[IdahoHomeschooler]

I will say I think Angelina has been grooming Shiloh for this since she was tiny. I have thought this for years, ever since I saw what outfits they dressed her in as a newborn. I still remember the People cover where they revealed her after she was born. They clearly have tried to masculinate her for a long, long time.

This is such a bizarre statement. I looked up the People mag picture and I see a very beautiful newborn dressed in a gender neutral outfit. How is that masculinating (whatever that means...)? I guess I attempted to masculate my daughter because I bought her cars and trains to play with, and bought her some non-pink and purple clothes. Gosh, some of those clothes might have been found in the *gasp* boys section! My favorite read aloud featured a boy as the main character. I painted her room green. I even cut her hair super short! (She looked darling in a pixie cut ;) ). Clearly, I was persistent and diabolical in my efforts to grow her a penis. Alas, she outwitted me, and ended up preferring ballerinas and baby dolls, and her favorite color is purple, dammit! I'm envious of the Jolie Pitts' obvious success in producing a gender non-conforming child. Well done, Brad and Angelina, well done!

[Scarlett]

If your point is that assumptions are being made about the credentials/lack of credentials of the professionals in this case, let that stand as your point. If THAT is your point, your call out and naming of me is non-responsive, and personal, and superfluous.

 

Because what you **posted** was:

 

 

Which is exactly the kind of call out and reference you've done repeatedly across threads. The kind of mention I asked, courteously, that you stop.

 

Yet, 2 days later, you did AGAIN.

 

The history of this thread is that YOU brought up my credentials; I did not. When you did, I used the reference to add to the content of the thread by discussing the ethics involved with regard to a licensed mental health professional in this case. I did not reference YOU, or even your style.

 

I wrote about how a licensed professional would be ethically required to refer trans issues as a specialty. Content which was 1) on topic 2) appropriate and 3) you ignored.

 

You have repeatedly referenced me in threads, including some verbiage regarding how I don't know your background, credentials, and education because you don't broadcast your stuff all over the place.

 

I asked you to stop; You did not. It was a reasonable request. I would rather not take my time to go through the multiple threads in which you did this to me, but if you don't stop posting about me personally, I will and I will present the case to SWB and the moderators.

Wait. I am confused. I have seen many many references to your credentials. You talk a lot about how you know this or that because of your training. But you don't want us to mention it?

[Corraleno]

nm 

 

Edited January 12, 2015 by Susan Wise Bauer
Please don't post photos of celebrities. Thanks.