Math Facts Poll.

[Gil]

The boys are curious and so I made this poll to find out: When is your ideal age* for math fact mastery for all four operations?

 

 

(*assuming the the age implies the expected grade level.)

[Crimson Wife]

End of 1st for addition & subtraction and end of 3rd for multiplication & division assuming the student is neurotypical. My child with LD's may take longer to master them, and that's fine.

[tiffaninichole]

I'd say around 10 for all 4 operations.  :)

[Kerileanne99]

Well, I would not say this should be a goal, but when we did our family/individual goals at New Year's, mastering all 4 operations with automaticity was one of the things my dd chose for age 4. In her words, "I want to practice them until I am as fast as Hermes!"

[kiana]

I'll agree with tiffani but add that earlier is absolutely wonderful if the child is enthusiastic about it.

[Desert Strawberry]

We aim for 4th grade for all four, so 9-10. I voted 7-9 , as that best applies to my children. 

[Zoo Keeper]

I'd say all four operations by 9 or 10, for the average child (whatever that is... :lol:).

[Tanikit]

I voted 7-9 however there is a very large difference between a child who has just turned 7 and one about to turn 10. When I was at school they did most of the drilling when we were 9 (I mean of multiplication facts here) and mastery was expected by 10 of both division and multiplication. I think if they are not down by 12 then the child would definitely battle with the grade expectations for Math.

[kiwik]

I voted 7 to 9 but I would expect most of the basic addition and subtraction before then but on the slow side. Ds7 is working on multiplication but I don't plan to drill division.

[Dagne]

Depends on the kid. My oldest was around 11 before he had his multiplication facts down cold, but I'm sure Dd8 will have them memorized by Christmas. I remember our class memorizing them in 3rd grade, so 9 sounds like a reasonable goal for most kids. 

[sunnyday]

I was a bright child but had a few sticky facts by my 10th birthday. (I remember memorizing 6 x 8 and 7 x 8 and most of my 9s at the beginning of 5th grade.) It didn't slow me down in getting a physics major and math minor once I got to college. So I'm just not too fussed about setting a deadline -- I think being pretty fluent the end of elementary will be fine by me. That said, my kids are getting all these terrific math materials that require that they be able to recognize patterns in numbers as part of the reasoning process (eg. Beast Academy). That's driving me to do a bit more drill than I otherwise would. DS drilled himself quite hard on his addition facts this year and mastered them (passing addition and subtraction speed drills in school), and he is working on fluency with multiplication now -- he's chronologically in second but working on third grade materials.

 

The Core standards expect students to "know from memory all sums of two one-digit numbers" by the end of second grade, and "know from memory all products of two one-digit numbers" by the end of third grade, as well as being able to use properties of operations to extrapolate subtraction and division, respectively, from those memorized facts. If that helps.

[Lori D.]

I did not vote because I don't feel qualified to answer this.  :laugh:

 

DS#1 seemed to be born already knowing math facts. Seriously, we never did any drills with him because he already knew them. To this day, I don't know how. :confused1:

 

DS#2 has mild LDs in abstract math areas that made learning math facts extremely difficult, so we used multiple methods up through about age 12 when I finally had to say "close enough" and use the time being spent on math facts for other more pressing needs. He was only missing a few of the "sticky" ones -- just couldn't nail them without mentally running through a skip counting or multiplication rock song.

 

 

Not that it means anything, but math facts for all 4 operations, up through the 12s, was drilled/mastered during all of 3rd grade at my public school many moons ago. :)

[SilverMoon]

I think I'll have to be the annoying one who needs an "Other" option. My older four kids (9+) are beyond that level, but I don't remember it ever being a specific goal of mine. The mathy and not so mathy just picked the facts up as they went along. *shrug* I only added drill when it seemed like they were struggling more than they should with larger problems.

[IsabelC]

Assuming you are asking for what I would ideally like, in a perfect world, as opposed to what would be remotely realistic for my kids with various 'issues', I would say by age 10 or end of fourth grade. 

(Although I am still not convinced that this is of crucial importance. I had them all down by age 6 but by husband who is much more 'mathy' than me still asks me if he needs quick mental arithmetic done and isn't holding a phone or iPad.)

[Arcadia]

Not that it means anything, but math facts for all 4 operations, up through the 12s, was drilled/mastered during all of 3rd grade at my public school many moons ago.

It still is drilled in PS locally up through the 10s in 3rd grade.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ideally they'd just be born knowing.  LOL

 

10 sounds like a good age to have all 4 operations pretty well mastered.  But that still feels rather arbitrary to say because I think if it doesn't happen until a bit later that's ok. 

[73349]

By the start of 4th grade, so 9.5, should work out for DS.

[boscopup]

I voted 10-12, because I think most average kids will have an easier time in middle school math if they have them memorized by the end of 4th grade, which would be around age 10 for many. I like to have addition and subtraction memorized by end of 2nd grade.

 

That said, my kids have all been earlier than that, even the one that I thought would have trouble memorizing facts. Go figure. Earlier is definitely easier for moving forward. I just wouldn't stress if the kid was still needing to use manipulatives in first grade or refer to a multiplication table in 3rd. And if you have practiced facts and the kid still isn't getting them, let them continue to use the multiplication table as they move forward into middle school math. Some kids just take a LONG time to learn them. Nothing you can do to change those kids. You just have to be patient, give them the tools they need, and hope for the best.

[Farrar]

I said 10-12 just because I don't think it's a huge deal if a kid lags behind in that fluency with them and doesn't get them fully until middle school. I didn't learn mine until Algebra 1. There was never any need. I could always figure them out quickly enough until I was doing those multi-step problems. Obviously it's not a choice - kids should know both, facts are important, especially when you get to fractions and division - but I would be more concerned by a kid who just knew math facts by age ten and didn't know how to work with some mental math strategies and explain algorithms than I would vice versa.

[lewelma]

Gil, given how advanced your kids are, I thought you might find my older boy's experience interesting.  He spent YEARS trying to learn the times tables.  He was so advanced that it was seriously holding him back. In the end he had to do them 3 times a day, 7 days a week, for 4 months for them to stick.  And he was still learning the subtraction facts while concurrently working through AoPS Intro Algebra *independently* including all the challengers.  His conceptual brilliance seemed to actually inhibit his facts learning. 

 

My younger in contrast kind of learned them through osmosis, even though he is not nearly as advanced in math.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Lori D.]

So, when do we get to hear about you sharing the poll results, and your DSs comments and thoughts? :) I feel like I'm in the midst of a cliffhanger, here. ;) 

[RootAnn]

To stay topical, I'll say we aim for end-of-3rd-grade (math book) for mastery of all four operations. Age when the kid reaches end-of-3rd-grade varies widely in this house.

 

Now, I get to share my story from yesterday when dd#1 & I were hanging out in the local dr office waiting room. (She gets weekly allergy shots and has to wait 30 minutes after them, so we bring a book to read or work on schoolwork.) Boy and his mother sitting near us. She's snapping at him to hold still so she can read his paper after he's asked for help. She's making frustrated typing/swiping motions on her phone - seemingly trying to find the answers to the worksheet questions online. As they get called back into the office, I hear her say they are 'working on algebra' and neither one has any clue how to do it. This perks both dd & I up. They come back out before our wait is up, so I ask if I can help with the algebra. The little boy sits down and the sheet isn't at all what I thought it would be. It is mostly just "turn this mathematical statement into words" (and the reverse), but there are a few plug-in-and-solve problems on the back.

 

Poor kid. When faced with 15 / 3, he literally draws "the house" and plugs each number into its place, writes a zero over the 1 and ponders for 15 seconds before writing the 5 over the 5 in 15 and then multiplies, subtracts, and writes out everything - including two zeros before looking up at me and saying, "5?"

 

The next problem was 15 / 5. He does the same tortured pencil-and-paper work for 30 seconds before happily announcing "3!"

 

4 + 3 got a blank look, then a questioning "8?" and after his mom shook his head, he changed the question to 7?

He also struggled mightily with 10 + ? = 12.

 

The mom said the teacher wasn't very "forthcoming" with help on the algebra sheet. The kid was 10 and in 5th grade. I gave him a hug before we all left the doctor's office and suggested he do the evens on the worksheet when he got home. He was only assigned the odds and we'd gone through them all, but could definitely use more work. He seemed to understand how to put the mathematical expressions into words but not so much on the actual arithmetic.

 

And that is why we AIM for mastery of all four operations by the end-of-third-grade. We may not get there, but by golly, we'll keep working on it!

[deerforest]

I think DD is only just now there, and she's 10 (5th grade), but it hasn't stopped her from progressing in math at all. She had tons of other mental math/skip counting strategies to work it out pretty quickly, but clearly still slower than if she had immediate recall. DH, who is mathematically gifted, still probably doesn't have any of them memorized, but he has his own mental math methods he uses each time, and he's super fast now. DD finally decided she wanted to do things faster so she was motivated to memorize them, and used Reflex Math to do it. 

 

In fact, when I started to suggest that she start memorizing these things back when she was 6 or so, we had a huge set back with math. She was so resistant, and I concluded it wasn't worth fighting about or worth holding her back. Instead, we  just took a full year off from all formal math curricula and did just living math activities, readings, videos, etc. and then moved immediately into BA 3A. She fell in love with BA, and has been a much happier math learner since. 

 

Since she was now the one who decided it would be to her benefit to memorize them, she's totally owned it and had a great experience. Now, she loves knowing them right away now, but it was a completely different experience now than it was 4+ years ago.

[SKL]

I chose 7-9 as the "ideal."  One of mine might not meet that on multiplication & division, but we'll see.

[SKL]

I don't think I ever "memorized math facts."  I still had a couple sticky ones when I was in mid-elementary, but mostly they just became part of me, kinda like most words kids "sound out" in the beginning but eventually somehow remember.

 

My youngest is only doing facts practice because her teacher requires it.  She would be fine without it.  She is 7 now and I would be very surprised if she got past 9yo without having them all down, drill or no drill.

 

My eldest does need to drill.  I'm not even sure years of daily drill will do it for her.

[mathnerd]

age 4-5 for addition, subtraction and doubles facts.

age 6 for multiplication facts up to 12 tables.

age 7 for division facts (working on it now).

 

age 7-9 is normal in our local public schools as well for most math facts.

[Meriwether]

Ds 8 still has to think about x and / facts. My others knew them by 7. Obviously, I am not worried enough to do anything about my 8 year old yet, but I think I will do something if he doesn't know them by the time he is 9. So, I say 7-9.

[OneStepAtATime]

Still hoping to memorize mine.  :glare: (Didn't hurt my ability to get into college or have a career or even run the finances for the family business but it DID really bog me down in Middle School and High School math).

 

But for an average, NT kid, ideally by 10-11 would be very helpful so middle school math is easier to tackle.  Earlier is great but some aren't there until later.  

[Mumjustmoved]

I am a medical dr, have a PhD and think of myself as rather mathy and still have to look at my fingers for the 9x tables. Though can now picture them just in my head, so, still getting there. My almost five year old is way ahead of me on that one.

[Peregrine]

7 for addition and subtraction

8-9 for multiplication and 9 for division

[Tsuga]

Before long division. Long division is hard enough without having to keep dots in your head. So I put 7-9 as I view long division as an early fourth-grade skill for an NT kid.

 

Luckily the math police don't verify this.

[Guest jkidcusto]

I'd love them to have the basic fact families down very well. 

[Ausmumof3]

I voted 7-9 but what I really want to vote is 10. I would be happy if it's done by 10 but if it was going up toward 12 I would be quite concerned.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Before long division. Long division is hard enough without having to keep dots in your head. So I put 7-9 as I view long division as an early fourth-grade skill for an NT kid.

 

Luckily the math police don't verify this.

 

Agree!  My son is in SM3 and we are doing long division with remainders.  Not knowing his division facts is bogging. us. down. so much.  I can't wait to finish this section and move on!  A page can take quite a while to complete, and he often forgets where he is/what step comes next in the algorithm by the time he has asked himself, ok, 6x1, no, 6x2, no, 6x3, no, ...  lol.  I hope to have all four operation facts CEMENTED by the end of his SM3 year.  Right now, he has the +, -, and x down well. 

[Gil]

I have let the boys write their own reply since its a rainy day and we don't have much else to do, it kept them busy for a bit. Without further ado (and minimal coaching/help from me), I present to you, Buddy and Pal.

So, when do we get to hear about you sharing the poll results, and your DSs comments and thoughts? :) I feel like I'm in the midst of a cliffhanger, here. ;)

To the HIVE 115 have answerd our voting poll and thank you for that to evryone.

From Buddy and Pal.

This is (Buddy) and we read the poll after ceriul this morning agan. I asked gil to make the poll becauze many kids do not know math facts anymore which is sad. Mathematicks is easyer if you know the math facts for + and minus and the others too.

 

In the olden days, math facts were mportant and kids had to learn them no matter where they went to school. Now days most kids do not. We have to learn them at home but my teacher said we do not need only until 5th grade. To me, that is not very good expectations. 2nd, 3rd and 4t grade math is harder if you do not know your mat facts good.

Good bye, internet.

 

THES IS (PAL) AND we can do most of the math facts already. I know the times tble & backwurd to divide, my dad gil made me learn it whn i was littul and it is eesy now

I can not do the sub facts very goood but i use the add facts and do them fastr that way.

bye bye internet.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Gil

[Lori D.]

I have let the boys write their own reply since its a rainy day and we don't have much else to do, it kept them busy for a bit. Without further ado (and minimal coaching/help from me), I present to you...

"To the HIVE 115 have answerd our voting poll and thank you for that to evryone."

 

Thanks so much, gentlemen, for letting us know what your thoughts were about the poll results. :)

 

Sounds like you both have a big head start on your math by having your math facts down already! BEST of luck in all of your educational adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D. (and the Hive) ;)

Edited March 5, 2017 by Lori D.

[Dory]

We shoot for about 9. My boys both have processing speed issues though so although they might have the facts down solid, we are still pushing for a little more speed.