Curious why you turned away from Christianity...

[Haiku]

This is why I'm not a Christian.

 

 

Yes. I wonder whether people ever realize that their judgy, disdainful attitude toward others actually pushes people away from this thing they claim is so great.

 

If people really want to try to share their version of the truth but are unable to do so without being rude and condescending, I feel a bit sorry for them.

[Mnemosyne]

Semantics, I suppose.  

 

Still, I know several atheists who state "there is no god", as opposed to just "I don't believe that there is any god." 

 

My personal statement:  I do not believe in any god, and I do not believe there is any god.  The first half, in my estimation, is atheism, and the second half is agnosticism.  I think this is pretty much what you said, above.

 

My brother's personal statement:  I do not believe in any god because there is no god. He has no doubt that there is no god.  He acknowledges that no one really knows, because you cannot prove a negative, but he is truly convinced that there is none, where I say "meh...it's highly unlikely, but I really don't care either way."

 

Again, semantics, but I think the two things are different.

 

Doesn't matter anyway.  Kind of like the existence or lack thereof of a god.   :tongue_smilie:

 

From what I've heard, theses are two different things:

 

Theistic/Atheistic - Believe in god(s) or not

 

Gnostic/Agnostic - sure of this knowledge or not.

 

So, there are really 4 different options - gnostic theist - there is a god, agnostic theist - think there is a god, agnostic atheist - think there is no god, and gnostic atheist - there is no god. And, of course, it's all a spectrum.

[SadieMarie]

From what I've heard, theses are two different things:

 

Theistic/Atheistic - Believe in god(s) or not

 

Gnostic/Agnostic - sure of this knowledge or not.

 

So, there are really 4 different options - gnostic theist - there is a god, agnostic theist - think there is a god, agnostic atheist - think there is no god, and gnostic atheist - there is no god. And, of course, it's all a spectrum.

You forgot fence sitters.

[Joanne]

Yes. I wonder whether people ever realize that their judgy, disdainful attitude toward others actually pushes people away from this thing they claim is so great.

 

If people really want to try to share their version of the truth but are unable to do so without being rude and condescending, I feel a bit sorry for them.

There are some great examples of people who lived who embrace spiritual principles.

 

There are some icons of Christian spirituality whom I still love to read: St. Frances, Juliann of Norwich, Kempis, Keating, John of the Cross, Brother Lawrence, Richard Foster, Bonhoeffer, Nouwenn. Emmett fox, but he was a radical within radical ranks.

 

I am a seeker; I don't claim agnostic or atheism. I just deny Christianity and other named religions.

[umsami]

For those who have mentioned judgemental Christians, I just want to add that I fear these types exist in most faiths.  In Islam, we find those who judge the women who don't wear hijab, those who judge the women who do wear hijab (not modest enough, small hair showing, whatever), those who judge reverts as being too American, those who judge reverts as having adopted an Arabic or insert ethnicity culture too much, etc.  In fact, you'll frequently find converts who say stuff like "it's a good thing I converted before I met a lot of Muslims."  (For the record, it was the nice Muslims I did meet and the whole concept of Muslim/Arab hospitality, which was a check box in Islam's favor.)

 

Of course that doesn't even go into the crazy fundies and how they impact people's views.

 

It's sad… but I think it's common. 

[ocelotmom]

For those who have mentioned judgemental Christians, I just want to add that I fear these types exist in most faiths.  In Islam, we find those who judge the women who don't wear hijab, those who judge the women who do wear hijab (not modest enough, small hair showing, whatever), those who judge reverts as being too American, those who judge reverts as having adopted an Arabic or insert ethnicity culture too much, etc.  In fact, you'll frequently find converts who say stuff like "it's a good thing I converted before I met a lot of Muslims."  (For the record, it was the nice Muslims I did meet and the whole concept of Muslim/Arab hospitality, which was a check box in Islam's favor.)

 

Of course that doesn't even go into the crazy fundies and how they impact people's views.

 

It's sad… but I think it's common. 

 

I'm sure this is true. I've met judgemental UUs. We're all human.

[Nemom]

I am overwhelmed by all the responses. Thank you to everyone for your honestly and willingness to share how you arrived at where you are today. Thank you also to Queen & kentuckymom for starting threads from a different perspective.

 

I did not start this thread because I am doubting my beliefs but rather out of a true desire to learn about others. There is a lot of judgment within the "body of believers" against those who do not but also against those whose beliefs do not line up with theirs. And this is what I am struggling with. Well, one of the things but I may post the others on one of the other two threads. 😉

 

To the poster on the 1st page regarding my adding an "s" to Revelation-I do the exact same thing with Psalms and Lymes and probably a lot of other words. Guess I'll have to work on that! 😀

 

Edited to add-just the overall judgment period. And I am not saying that all believers are like this but I have personally encountered a large majority that are.

[ocelotmom]

See, I don't get atheism either really.  It just seems like the flip side lol.  I can't know there is no creator of any kind or that there is so I don't worry about it.  I can see how being religious could be a comfort or oppressive, depending on the religion and how it is practiced.  

 

The way I've heard it described is that true atheists don't reject the possibility of a god - they just consider it highly unlikely. 

 

I don't identify with atheism. Technically, I suppose I fall in that category, as I doubt there is a sentient entity "god" (or "gods"). But I do believe, based on experiences, that there is some sort of spiritual dimension, which most people who identify as atheists also reject. 

[Ipsey]

I am overwhelmed by all the responses. Thank you to everyone for your honestly and willingness to share how you arrived at where you are today. Thank you also to Queen & kentuckymom for starting threads from a different perspective.

 

I did not start this thread because I am doubting my beliefs but rather out of a true desire to learn about others. There is a lot of judgment within the "body of believers" against those who do not but also against those whose beliefs do not line up with theirs. And this is what I am struggling with. Well, one of the things but I may post the others on one of the other two threads. 😉

 

To the poster on the 1st page regarding my adding an "s" to Revelation-I do the exact same thing with Psalms and Lymes and probably a lot of other words. Guess I'll have to work on that! 

 

No, no. Don't worry. :) I shouldn't have even brought it up. It was more about me than you, anyway. 

[Firefly]

The way I've heard it described is that true atheists don't reject the possibility of a god - they just consider it highly unlikely. 

 

I don't identify with atheism. Technically, I suppose I fall in that category, as I doubt there is a sentient entity "god" (or "gods"). But I do believe, based on experiences, that there is some sort of spiritual dimension, which most people who identify as atheists also reject. 

 

This is me, too. :)

[Mom-ninja.]

You forgot fence sitters.

 

Is it a picket fence? If yes I'll give up my spot.

[Haiku]

For those who have mentioned judgemental Christians, I just want to add that I fear these types exist in most faiths.

I'm sure they do, but this thread was specific to Christianity.

[Jennifer3141]

I never really believed. I admit that. I thought the bible was bunk as a child. The Torah and the Koran too for that matter - as I had to read both in college for my degree.

 

They are lovely fables but I never put more stock in any of them than Grimm's fairy tales. And I've read the bible cover to cover more than once. I was born Reformed, converted to Catholicism when I got engaged to a Catholic man and then tried out Wesleyan. I never found any god there.

 

My one true spiritual experience was with a Goddess. But I don't live my life there either really.

 

And then I met Xtians like Luanne and that sealed the deal for me. No thanks!

[Audrey]

For those who have mentioned judgemental Christians, I just want to add that I fear these types exist in most faiths.  In Islam, we find those who judge the women who don't wear hijab, those who judge the women who do wear hijab (not modest enough, small hair showing, whatever), those who judge reverts as being too American, those who judge reverts as having adopted an Arabic or insert ethnicity culture too much, etc.  In fact, you'll frequently find converts who say stuff like "it's a good thing I converted before I met a lot of Muslims."  (For the record, it was the nice Muslims I did meet and the whole concept of Muslim/Arab hospitality, which was a check box in Islam's favor.)

 

Of course that doesn't even go into the crazy fundies and how they impact people's views.

 

It's sad… but I think it's common. 

 

 

Oh, you find that among Pagans, too.  I think it's a human thing, not strictly a religious thing. 

[Camelfeet]

Because even though I would love more than anything to believe there is an afterlife, every fiber in my being tells me that there is no god (Christian or otherwise), nothing supernatural, and no soul.   Logically I just can't believe it - it doesn't make sense to me.  When I admitted to myself that I was an atheist, I stopped feeling like I was faking it.  I was brought up Catholic and attended Catholic schools.

 

I don't feel like I'm missing anything in my life.  

[Hoot]

From what I've heard, theses are two different things:

 

Theistic/Atheistic - Believe in god(s) or not

 

Gnostic/Agnostic - sure of this knowledge or not.

 

So, there are really 4 different options - gnostic theist - there is a god, agnostic theist - think there is a god, agnostic atheist - think there is no god, and gnostic atheist - there is no god. And, of course, it's all a spectrum.

 

You just made my brain hurt.  :eek:

[umsami]

I'm sure this is true. I've met judgemental UUs. We're all human.

 

It's funny you wrote this, because I almost made an exception for UUs when I wrote it. LOL  They tend to be far more accepting than most. :)

[Elfknitter.#]

You just made my brain hurt. :eek:

:lol:

[Hoot]

And now I am out of "likes." 

Not cool, board.

Not. Cool.

:toetap05:

 

[Luanne]

I think that sense of freedom and peace after coming to terms with non-belief has been a theme in this thread. I think when people feel sorry for me they really are projecting their own imagined sense of loss, rather than responding to my own experience.

 

I was just talking in general... not aiming at any particular person.  I know nothing of your experience.  I just know what I consider to be the truth and what happens to people who don't believe in the truth.

 

I look at it this way... if I am wrong in what I believe, not much will happen when I die.  If people who believe there is no God and no heaven are wrong, they have a lot to lose.

 

[Occasionally]

I prefer not to live my life in fear. I don't wish to fear that I might be the wrong type of person, or do the wrong thing, be caught up in the wrong form of Christianity or whatever. Then I might be denied the Eternal Reward. Pah. That's no way for me to live my life.

 

And like I posted upthread:

 

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but...will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones

[TeacherZee]

You know what happens to people who don't believe in the truth ?

 

Hubris, much ?

 

It's all right. I'm good with going straight into the worm farm. It makes me feel content to know I'll return to earth.

 

And if I'm wrong ?

 

I do believe the company will be excellent in that place I'm apparently going.

We've got umbrella drinks and lazy boy chairs. I think AggieAmy called the top bunk.

[Luanne]

nm 

 

Edited August 2, 2014 by Moderator
That is not acceptable.

[SadieMarie]

For me it's no different to not believing in Zeus.

 

Once I dechurched myself, it just seemed ludicrous to study some "gods' as myth and fable, but assume that a Christian 'god' was real.

 

I mean, I can almost, kinda get behind some impersonal meta-universal non-person force - but is it worth calling that God ? Why don't we just call that the awesomeness of the universe ?

 

I do regularly meditate on the awesomeness of the Universe :)

 

I haven't dismissed the possibility of Zeus either ;).

[Rosie_0801]

I was just talking in general... not aiming at any particular person.  I know nothing of your experience.  I just know what I consider to be the truth and what happens to people who don't believe in the truth.

 

I look at it this way... if I am wrong in what I believe, not much will happen when I die.  If people who believe there is no God and no heaven are wrong, they have a lot to lose.

 

 

You might find out God prefers the Jews or the Muslims or the Bahai or any other kind of believer and you should have been one of them. It's not like Christian God or no god are the only options to consider.

 

No one can cover all bases, so we have to do what works for us. Your kind of Christianity works for you, something else works for us.

[Χά�ων]

You sure had to talk in mumbo jumbo to make some comments here.  I guess it makes you feel better.  It might not when you leave from this earth, but you've already made up your mind to be closed to anything anyone else has to say so ......

 

You need to stop. 

[SadieMarie]

I was just talking in general... not aiming at any particular person. I know nothing of your experience. I just know what I consider to be the truth and what happens to people who don't believe in the truth.

 

I look at it this way... if I am wrong in what I believe, not much will happen when I die. If people who believe there is no God and no heaven are wrong, they have a lot to lose.

 

It's always good to hedge your bets.

[ocelotmom]

It's funny you wrote this, because I almost made an exception for UUs when I wrote it. LOL  They tend to be far more accepting than most. :)

 

Taken as a group, yes. Individually? Oh boy...

 

They're also most accepting in certain directions. People with more conservative views often don't feel particularly accepted, even if they want to be there and are accepting of the views of others.

 

There are Christian UUs, and some congregations are apparently very Christian-leaning, but overall you have an awful lot of people who are refugees from Christianity and have a hard time accepting Christians of anything but the most liberal persuasion. Which is understandable, as many of them have been hurt by Christianity.

 

The particular congregation I attended also took a fairly condescending attitude towards the poor. Not that that's unique to UUs, either!

 

I look at it this way... if I am wrong in what I believe, not much will happen when I die.  If people who believe there is no God and no heaven are wrong, they have a lot to lose.

 

Pascal's Wager assumes that there are two possible options - Christianity is true and God, heaven, and hell exist in the form that you believe, or there is nothing.

 

What if the true answer is something else? Something where your version of Christianity is a negative?

 

Which isn't to say you should change your beliefs if they're working for you, but I came to the conclusion that it does not make sense to decide how we live our lives based primarily upon fear of eternal punishment.

[mamaraby]

I was just talking in general... not aiming at any particular person. I know nothing of your experience. I just know what I consider to be the truth and what happens to people who don't believe in the truth.

 

I look at it this way... if I am wrong in what I believe, not much will happen when I die. If people who believe there is no God and no heaven are wrong, they have a lot to lose.

 

That's called "Pascal's Wager" and not one I ever found particularly convincing. Which god? What if it's not your god, but a different one? Then you've spent all your life trying to follow god A only to find out it was B instead. Then you do have so ething to lose. Pascal's Wager pre-supposes you've picked the right one.

 

Which is not to argue with you. I have zero desire to convince you of why I don't believe in your (or anyone else's for that matter) god - a courtesy you are apparently unwilling to extend those here. What I and others here are trying to suggest is that you stop projecting your own beliefs, assumptions, and feelings of loss onto us. You're an atheist when it comes to a number of other gods because you don't believe those gods are real. I agree with you on those. I just disbelieve in one more god than you.

 

ETA: lol, ocelotmom (and a few others) beat me to it. :0)

[SadieMarie]

Luanne, I wish you lived down the street. I would bring you a nice lasagna and a bottle of wine and let you try to set me straight. Hugs!

[Xuzi]

Gaaaaah! I'm trying so hard to find a clip of "The Mormons were right" from South Park, but YouTube isn't delivering! :p

 

I'll just go back to lurking.

 

(and I was only going to post the clip in a totally tongue-in-cheek way, which I figured you'd know, since, hey, SOUTH PARK! but just wanted to be clear. ;) )

[Dana]

You might find out God prefers the Jews or the Muslims or the Bahai or any other kind of believer and you should have been one of them. It's not like Christian God or no god are the only options to consider.

I always think of South Park: The Movie with this.

 

After the apocalypse, in hell, someone asks who had the right religion. The response is, "I'm sorry. It was the Mormons. The Mormons were correct." And then there's a cut to heaven. :)

 

Need to watch that again....

[Dana]

Gaaaaah! I'm trying so hard to find a clip of "The Mormons were right" from South Park, but YouTube isn't delivering! :p

 

I'll just go back to lurking.

 

(and I was only going to post the clip in a totally tongue-in-cheek way, which I figured you'd know, since, hey, SOUTH PARK! but just wanted to be clear. ;) )

You were faster than me with posting!

 

Can't you just HEAR it?

[Catwoman]

We've got umbrella drinks and lazy boy chairs. I think AggieAmy called the top bunk.

She did.

 

And although I got over it, I have to admit I was a little bitter about it at first. ;)

[ocelotmom]

Gaaaaah! I'm trying so hard to find a clip of "The Mormons were right" from South Park, but YouTube isn't delivering! :p

 

I'll just go back to lurking.

 

(and I was only going to post the clip in a totally tongue-in-cheek way, which I figured you'd know, since, hey, SOUTH PARK! but just wanted to be clear. ;) )

 

At least if the Mormons were right, I'm only headed for the terrestrial or telestial kingdom. I don't think I'm quite horrible enough for the outer darkness.

[Luanne]

I don't like top bunks.  I fell out of one while sleeping over at a friend's house when I was 8.  My sister is 5 years older than me and she always slept in the top bunk. 

 

Interesting story ... made short as possible .. my best friend from 6th grade (still my best friend) ... Eco week in 6th grade ... we didn't hit it off well when she first started at my school ... at Eco week we shared a room with her friend Teresa (who had been my friend since K) and my friend Sharon ... Marianne (my best friend) and Teresa both wanted to sleep on the top bunk so Marianne and I ended up sharing the bed (her on top, me on the bottom).  We talking into the night and have been best friends ever since ... all because I wouldn't sleep on the top bunk (and neither would Sharon).

[Dory]

I was just talking in general... not aiming at any particular person.  I know nothing of your experience.  I just know what I consider to be the truth and what happens to people who don't believe in the truth.

 

I look at it this way... if I am wrong in what I believe, not much will happen when I die.  If people who believe there is no God and no heaven are wrong, they have a lot to lose.

 

 

Well I'd let you try and set me straight. I've let a lot of other people and I'm always open to suggestions. I'm not even sure what's necessary to meet the standards of saved anymore.

[Catwoman]

At least if the Mormons were right, I'm only headed for the terrestrial or telestial kingdom. I don't think I'm quite horrible enough for the outer darkness.

There's still time.

 

Try harder.

 

We've still got some lower bunks available.

[mamaraby]

*sigh* Of all the times to run out of likes...

[Hypatia.]

Sign me up for a bottom bunk, looks like that's all we have left.  

[unfrumpable.]

I am out of likes as well. Sadness.

[unfrumpable.]

I am also out of cheesecake.

[Χά�ων]

I am also out of cheesecake.

Gasp!

[sheryl]

One word: Christians.

 

I grew up Christian in a communist country when that was not a popular choice - not illegal, but barely tolerated, and they gave us a lot of carp in school.

After moving to the US, I encountered people who consider themselves Christians and are narrow minded and intolerant to an extent I have never witnessed before. I have been told to my face

that I am not supposed to find a church that works for me, but that my sole purpose on Earth is to go to church and worship;

that my husband has authority over my conscience;

that the commandment Thou Shalt not Kill does not apply to Muslims because they are the infidel who threaten our way of life.

My daughter has been told she will go to hell because she is wearing pants. My son has been bullied by church kids for his lack of belief.

 

Sorry, but I am done. The God I was taught to believe in is not the bean counter who has nothing better to do all day than to inspect the minute details of peoples' lives, how they dress, what word choices they use.  I do not believe that one small group is in possession of the sole truth and that everybody else is doomed to go to hell. I do not want to believe in a God who is operating in such manner.

 

I have been wrestling with the question why an omnipotent God would let horrible things happen to the innocent since I was a teen. I have come to the conclusion that, if there is a God, he is not involved in the daily running of his creation. But it was not until I came here that I heard stuff like "it all happens for a purpose". Nope, I refuse to believe in a God who slaughters millions for some undiscernible purpose. It was not until i came here that I encountered the belief that hard enough praying will prevent a bad thing from happening - I mean, what is the conclusion: the parents whose kid died simply did not pray hard enough?

I believe that prayer is introspection and can set free forces within a person. I do not believe that my praying can prevent somebody else from dying.

 

I grew up with the teaching that Christians witness through their actions, not through proselytizing, bugging people, belittling their world views, intimidating them and threatening them with hell. I grew up where Christians were at the forefront of social progress, where they fought for peace, for the environment, for equality, against discrimination - now I ended up in a place where it seems to be the opposite and Christians tend to be socially conservative and have values that are far removed from mine. I find my values mirrored more in my atheist and pagan friends.

 

ETA: Please understand that I am not making statements about "all" Christians. I do have Christian friends; there are wonderful people who do good works. But there are enough here to turn me off organized religion.

Regentude,

 

With all sincerity I offer this - God does "not" kill.   I know for many people it seems because we have crimes of all sorts that it all points back to Him.  It does not because mankind has a choice.  God will not violate free will.  He may "allow" something, but He does not cause it.  God works in the lives of people.  There are some people who pray and, yes, their child lives.   Others pray and their child dies.  He doesn't love one person more than another.  God loves everyone so much that He may " allow" an event (child dying) to bring revelation/salvation to that person.  Think of Elizabeth Elliot.  Her "Christian" husband was murdered by tribesmen in South America, specifically the Aucas Indians of Ecuador.  Elizabeth "chose" to forgive these men and as a result of this forgiveness many of the Indians gave their lives to Christ.  

 

Just because a person is saved doesn't mean we are perfect.   We are all imperfect but our perspective has changed.   The unsaved, imo, thinks erroneously about Christians - thinking that we should be perfect.   That won't be until believers are in eternity with Jesus!  :)

[FaithManor]

I am also out of cheesecake.

And as far as I am concerned, no one should attempt to wrestle with deep, existential questions sans cheesecake.

[Haiku]

you've already made up your mind to be closed to anything anyone else has to say so ......

 

As opposed to you, who are so open to others' beliefs ... ?

[livetoread]

I always find enormous resistance from Christians to the idea that people can be dedicated Christians for part of their lives but then lose their faith against their own will. It HAS to be true for them that we somehow turned our back on this god, not that this god can be utterly indifferent to our attempts to continue to believe.

 

Well, except for those who believe their god only chooses some - then it makes sense. But why anyone would want anything to do with a god like that is beyond me.

 

I understand the resistance because in order for this god to be loving, he has to be responsive to those who earnestly seek him. The reality - that in many cases people try but get nothing but crickets - doesn't compute. It can't be that this god doesn't exist, it can't be that he exists but only likes certain people, and it can't be that he exists but is really a jerk and likes messing with us. It has to be the fault of those who lost their faith.

[Haiku]

With all sincerity I offer this - God does "not" kill.

According to what is written in the bible, he sure as heck does.

[mamaraby]

I am also out of cheesecake.

Well, now you're just taunting me.

 

There, quoted you. That will have to do in place of a "like."

[Scrub Jay]

Ok, so God "allows" kids with cancer to die but doesn't cause the cancer or death? Not sure how that is any better given that he is God and supposedly has a certain level of power...