Who gets to graduate? (article)

[regentrude]

I was just  forwarded this article, and  I don't think it has been linked or discussed here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/magazine/who-gets-to-graduate.html?_r=1

Some interesting ideas.

[kiana]

Nice article, I'm pondering finding the article they used in the developmental math study and assigning it to my students for reading this fall.

[Catherine]

Very interesting. I have been a bit obsessed with the ideas in Carol Dweck's book, Mindset, and the researchers in this article build on those ideas. There is another book, written by Paul Tough, this article's author, called How Children Succeed, that propounds similar ideas.

 

What is most interesting to me is that putting students into remedial classes predicts failure so well. And putting them into challenging classes has the opposite effect. It suggests that their failures are more psychological than purely academic.

[Laura Corin]

Those are frightening graduation statistics.  I had no idea.

 

L

[G5052]

Yes, exactly what I see at the community college.  The one I work for has a graduation rate of around 20-25% five years after admission.  

 

This is a good community college with solid transfer agreements to a variety of schools, even several "public ivies."  I have several former students who are now professors and one who went to law school.  Over 2/3 of those admitted say that their goal is a 4-year degree.

 

But getting there is really tough.  The barriers they face are enormous at times.  I've had students who were living in their cars, and others who had a full-time job, a weekend job, and were raising two kids while taking four classes.  Thankfully they have programs like the one described in the article where extra social and practical support is provided, but many don't take advantage of that or don't quality for it.  And my grade spread is normally like the one described in the article that led to the programs they put together.  A good number of A's and B's and then a block of D's and F's.  Sometimes the lower block even have perfect attendance but are utterly lost and don't do the homework no matter how hard I try to engage them.

[Jane in NC]

Back in the '80's I taught in two different university summer programs for students from low income families, students with a high class rank but low SAT score.  The methodology employed was pretty simple:  Don't dumb down the curriculum, expect success, and supply additional support in several key areas (reading comprehension, test taking strategies, organizational skills).  The summer schedule was fairly brutal for these kids in that it was structured from 7 AM until 9 PM but it developed a skill set that many of these kids did not have despite earning As and Bs in high school.

 

Georgia Tech had done some studies on this back at the time on which these programs were modeled.

 

I do think that many students have convinced themselves that are incapable of learning math and science. Parents don't help as was the case in the article.

[Cosmos]

Very interesting article. Thank you for sharing.

 

This sentence caught my eye -- "It may seem counterintuitive, but the more selective the college you choose, the higher your likelihood of graduating." Isn't that in opposition to Malcolm Gladwell's claims being discussed in another thread?

[kiana]

Very interesting. I have been a bit obsessed with the ideas in Carol Dweck's book, Mindset, and the researchers in this article build on those ideas. There is another book, written by Paul Tough, this article's author, called How Children Succeed, that propounds similar ideas.

 

What is most interesting to me is that putting students into remedial classes predicts failure so well. And putting them into challenging classes has the opposite effect. It suggests that their failures are more psychological than purely academic.

 

Absolutely.

 

In all the math classes I have taught (many developmental), I have only once had someone complete every problem on every homework assignment and still not pass. It is very rare (under 5%, but I don't have precise numbers) that someone who completes 90% of the homework and attends 90% of the classes still fails. Most of the students who fail have missed at least 25% of the classes and/or homework. Many start out well (indicating that they CAN succeed), and then life gets in their way, they miss a few weeks, and never catch up.

[kiana]

Very interesting article. Thank you for sharing.

 

This sentence caught my eye -- "It may seem counterintuitive, but the more selective the college you choose, the higher your likelihood of graduating." Isn't that in opposition to Malcolm Gladwell's claims being discussed in another thread?

I wonder whether it applies to students who are in the bottom 25% of their class, or just to students who are in the middle. I'd love to see the data on this -- from both of them.

[regentrude]

In all the math classes I have taught (many developmental), I have only once had someone complete every problem on every homework assignment and still not pass. It is very rare (under 5%, but I don't have precise numbers) that someone who completes 90% of the homework and attends 90% of the classes still fails. Most of the students who fail have missed at least 25% of the classes and/or homework. Many start out well (indicating that they CAN succeed), and then life gets in their way, they miss a few weeks, and never catch up.

This is precisely the experience I made during the 12 years I have been teaching physics classes.

I have never had a student who completed all homework and attended all classes and still failed the course. Every single student who ends with a D or F has large numbers of missed assignments.

Now, of course not everybody is capable of achieving a grade of A, but everybody who puts in the required amount of work is going to pass.

Very interesting article. Thank you for sharing.

 

This sentence caught my eye -- "It may seem counterintuitive, but the more selective the college you choose, the higher your likelihood of graduating." Isn't that in opposition to Malcolm Gladwell's claims being discussed in another thread?

 

 

Gladwell's thesis (incorrect, I believe) is that the more selective a college, the less likely a student who starts out as a stem major will graduate with a stem degree, though they very well may graduate with a non-stem degree.  However, his data was all from small private LACs in the 1980s, that all had very high graduation rates.

I think the big advantage that the middle and upper class college students have is that often their families and peer groups have passed on to them valuable life lessons about how to succeed in college.  For example, in high school, you can often do well just by being smart, but as Regentrude shows above, in college, you almost certainly need to put in the work.  In the article, the featured girl said that she rarely did math homework in high school, but still got A's and B's.

 

I'm sure that somewhere in her preparations for college, someone told her the incredibly valuable advice that for every hour of class time, she should be studying 2 to 3 hours, but I bet that wasn't from a trusted source, so it didn't sink in, or she didn't "get it".  However, things seemed to turn around when she found a student nursing club:

 

 

[she] asked her on a whim if she knew any students in the nursing program. As it happened, the woman’s two best friends were in nursing, and they had just helped start an African-American nursing association at U.T.

 

Vanessa got their numbers and started texting with them, and they invited her to one of their meetings. They were juniors, a couple of years older than Vanessa, and they took her under their wing. “I like having someone to look up to,†Vanessa told me. “I felt like I was alone, but then I found people who said, you know, ‘I cried just like you.’ And it helped.â€

 

I'm a big proponent of students finding and joining these kinds of academic clubs.  I think it is so valuable to have peers, some of whom are ahead of you in your program, that you can network with, trust, and learn the ropes.  More than once, on these boards, someone has said "I'm halfway through my degree in X, but I'm worried about job prospects".  But they never talk about what their peers in their degree program are doing, especially those a year to two ahead.  I wonder if older college students are stigmatized not to talk to traditionally aged students about these things?  Or are our board friends mostly taking online classes, where there isn't an opportunity to join and form these kinds of clubs.  I worry that with more and more education going online that these kinds of clubs will become more rare.

 

When mine go to college, this is certainly something I will be talking with them about.

[G5052]

I've had students who arrived at the community college thinking that it will be easy because they had all A's in high school and somehow were told that it would be easy.  Quite a few have told me that they never studied in high school and figured that it would be the same in college.

 

When a student is prepared to work and is able to arrange their lives so that they have the time to complete their assignments, everything goes better.  It also helps of course if they have dealt with some level of difficulty and even failure academically.  If they've figured how to adjust when things don't go well, it makes a big difference.  There have been times where I've sat down with a student and shared my own experiences of withdrawing from classes I was failing, getting a two very low "Cs" in graduate school, having to work my way through my undergraduate degree with multiple jobs, and being unemployed when a graduated from college.  Many of them think that if you're a professor, everything went smoothly the whole way.   They need to know that failure is part of achieving success, and that failing means you have to figure out some way of recovering versus just giving up.

 

When it has been easy until that point and when their background or circumstances mean that recovering from difficulty is hard to navigate, a student indeed may bottom out.

[G5052]

Or are our board friends mostly taking online classes, where there isn't an opportunity to join and form these kinds of clubs.  I worry that with more and more education going online that these kinds of clubs will become more rare.

 

When mine go to college, this is certainly something I will be talking with them about.

 

This is big concern with online degrees and even doing a mix of online and face-to-face classes.  The networking and informal interactions happens far, far less in online classes than in traditional bricks-and-mortar schools.  I've already told mine that I'm fine if they want to do core subjects online, but I want them to take their major classes in a traditional format.  And I want them involved in interested-based clubs and seeking internship, shadowing, and co-op opportunities.

[Catherine]

Gladwell's thesis (incorrect, I believe) is that the more selective a college, the less likely a student who starts out as a stem major will graduate with a stem degree, though they very well may graduate with a non-stem degree.  However, his data was all from small private LACs in the 1980s, that all had very high graduation rates.

FWIW, my N of 1 definitely supports this. I went to a small LAC in the 80's and there were huge numbers of future chem and bio majors (pre-meds, mostly) who dropped out of that track in the first year. Those classes are HARD. Showing up consistently, doing the work, and studying for tests. That is the formula. Amazing that so many college students do not do all of those things.

FWIW, my N of 1 definitely supports this. I went to a small LAC in the 80's and there were huge numbers of future chem and bio majors (pre-meds, mostly) who dropped out of that track in the first year. Those classes are HARD. 

 

I don't doubt this is true, but Gladwell's thesis is that these failing students would have all passed their classes, graduated, and become doctors, if only they went to an easier school.  I think, even at the easier schools, you still need to show up and do the work.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I read this a few weeks ago. There are parts I really like. I love the efforts to teach students that struggle and failure don't mean they should quit. That it is often part of the college experience. Indeed it is part of becoming an adult.

 

I like the idea of tutoring centers and counseling.to help equip students to approach learning better.

 

I dislike the idea that there are cadres who don't have access to extra tutoring and counseling because their race/ethnicity isn't right or their parents have too much education or income. I know many students who fell into categories dismissed as advantaged who struggled with the initial steps into college. I think they were just as deserving of hearing about mindset or note taking or networking opportunities.

 

And I wonder about the concern about under matching students. This article was the first I'd heard of this. Usually I've seen the phrase over matching where a student goes to a school they were not prepared for and fail out.

 

It seems that if you fall in some categories and struggle in college it's because you aren't working hard enough, played too many video games, went too many parties or were otherwise lacking. But if you struggle but fall into other categories it is a systemic problem deserving of extra scaffolding.

 

I think both may be true depending on the student. Measure output, effort and attitude. Don't base it on group membership; at least not on the driving factor.

[maize]

I don't know what most colleges are like. I went to a state school. They had tons of free tutoring services for every subject. They had a writing lab. They had a math lab. They had foreign language labs. And they advertised. If you needed help and didn't get any that was basically your own darn fault. Study skills courses were available to anyone, but did not earn credit. I never actually used any of the services.

 

I am pretty amazed I graduated. Sometimes I have nightmares that I'm short one class, and I can't seem to get through the class. I wake up and think no I really did graduate.

 

 

I'm not the only one who still has nightmares about college huh? Most often, I dream that it is the end of a term and I suddenly realize there is a class I forgot I was enrolled in and haven't attended or completed assignments for all semester and I panic because I know I am going to fail. It all seems so real...

[regentrude]

I don't know what most colleges are like.  I went to a state school.  They had tons of free tutoring services for every subject.  They had a writing lab.  They had a math lab.  They had foreign language labs.  And they advertised.  If you needed help and didn't get any that was basically your own darn fault.

 

For our intro course, we offer 18 hours of free learning assistance available every.single.week: learning centers staffed with peer assistants and faculty on two afternoons and two evenings, as well as walk-in tutoring four nights a week.

The students who attend are the B and C students who, with this help, may achieve the next higher grade. The top students don't come because they have no need. The students in danger of failing the course do not attend! They simply won't come on a regular basis. The info is on the syllabus, on the course website, repeated in class, learning centers are announced in class twice a week on the days they happen - to no avail: eight weeks into the semester there will still be students who come to me "what? There is TUTORING??? I had no idea!"

 

ETA: Our school even uses an electronic system to notify underperforming students and suggest actions to them. I am required to use it (even though I consider it ridiculous babysitting - after all, students know they have not been attending class or bummed an exam), yet sometimes students simply do not view the email with their Alert info for several weeks.

[regentrude]

I've had students who arrived at the community college thinking that it will be easy because they had all A's in high school and somehow were told that it would be easy.  Quite a few have told me that they never studied in high school and figured that it would be the same in college.

 

I  encounter such students frequently - and I was one of them, since even my very good German high school did not require me to study, my Abitur with perfect grades was effortless. I got a huge shock when I started at the university, and initially it translated into thinking I am not smart enough to hack physics. I bummed my first exam. I worked extremely hard and put in huge amounts of time, but it did not click. It took me a whole semester to figure out what to do, to find a study group - and then it was as if a switch had flipped. It was still hard work, but I know how to put in the work.

When students come to me who always found school easy and now don't know what hit them, who are sometimes in tears because they put in so many hours and it does not bear fruit, I tell them about my experience. They find it very encouraging, because hey, after all, here I am teaching the very subject I was almost failing as a freshman. But I am angry how high school here short-changes not only the gifted, but even the moderately smart students by not giving them the oft of struggle and challenge.

[maize]

I graduated from an IB high school overseas, and no way could I or any if my classmates have made it through without studying. I was surprised at my roomates' complaints in college of how much harder it was than highschool--I never faced a college semester as hard as my last two years of high school. It never occurred to me that kids could get through high school with good grades without studying. Or without understanding the material. A friend recently told me she got straight A's in her math classes by completing all the extra credit assignments even though she never really understood the material and did poorly on the tests. It does make me think there is some value to rigorous end of program exams in high school, our tests were all graded using the same standards we would be required to meet on the IB exams, so we had a solid idea of where we were in terms of achievement and the standard we needed to reach.

[CrunchyGirl]

Sometimes I have nightmares that I'm short one class, and I can't seem to get through the class.  I wake up and think no I really did graduate. 

 

 

I'm thankful I'm not the only person who has these dreams. I have two master's degrees and yet this dream pops up every 6 months or so.

 

When I was teaching it was a senior level course so at that point it was honestly the community college transfers who were still struggling. As far as I know they all graduated but it wasn't with good grades.

[Caroline]

For our intro course, we offer 18 hours of free learning assistance available every.single.week: learning centers staffed with peer assistants and faculty on two afternoons and two evenings, as well as walk-in tutoring four nights a week.

The students who attend are the B and C students who, with this help, may achieve the next higher grade. The top students don't come because they have no need. The students in danger of failing the course do not attend! They simply won't come on a regular basis. The info is on the syllabus, on the course website, repeated in class, learning centers are announced in class twice a week on the days they happen - to no avail: eight weeks into the semester there will still be students who come to me "what? There is TUTORING??? I had no idea!"

 

ETA: Our school even uses an electronic system to notify underperforming students and suggest actions to them. I am required to use it (even though I consider it ridiculous babysitting - after all, students know they have not been attending class or bummed an exam), yet sometimes students simply do not view the email with their Alert info for several weeks.

 

Are a lot of those kids the ones that don't attend class and don't do their homework? 

[Bootsie]

I teach within the same university system as Laude, so I am seeing the same student demographics and issues.  Two things jump out at me in the article.  One, is students are placed in smaller classes. This provides students a much different atmosphere than a huge lecture hall or on-line classes (which have been pushed by the state as a money saving technique).  Two, students aren't told why they are chosen.  In recent years, I have had a number of students who are failing (and haven;t come to class, done homework, etc.)  who beg for a passing grade and say, "but, I am a first generation college student..."  This has become part of their mindset because they have been told that so many times.  

 

I think if you ask most professors, they would say that small classes and accountability on the part of the student will help graduation rates.  But the governor's office wants bigger classes, more technology, more programs, etc. to help these students which in the long run may be counterproductive.  

[Kareni]

I was just  forwarded this article, and  I don't think it has been linked or discussed here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/magazine/who-gets-to-graduate.html?_r=1

 

 

Thanks for the link, regentrude.  I enjoyed reading the article.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[regentrude]

Are a lot of those kids the ones that don't attend class and don't do their homework? 

 

Of course. The ones who don't attend class and don't do the homework are not attending help sessions for homework completion either.

But there are also a number of students who are in class on a fairly regular basis (and thus hear the announcements), and do the homework but do a poor job and don't come to help sessions/tutoring.

 

[LinRTX]

Ok I looked at this article. She is from Dallas and went to UT in Austin for nursing? Most people in Texas want to go to UT in Austin because it is a big name school, but it is not always the best school.

 

There is a much better school for nursing right here in the Dallas area. She should have gone there. It is a smaller school and I don't think she would have been as overwhelmed.

 

I too was a first generation college graduate. Way back then there was no extra help for those of us that struggled with the expectations of college. These days there is so much free tutoring help. But the kids don't take advantage of it. I just don't understand. I have even offered to tutor some of my daughters friends for free and they don't want to do it.

 

I think everyone is expected to go to college these days, but maybe some shouldn't be there.

 

Linda

[elegantlion]

This is big concern with online degrees and even doing a mix of online and face-to-face classes.  The networking and informal interactions happens far, far less in online classes than in traditional bricks-and-mortar schools.  I've already told mine that I'm fine if they want to do core subjects online, but I want them to take their major classes in a traditional format.  And I want them involved in interested-based clubs and seeking internship, shadowing, and co-op opportunities.

 

I took a total of 8 online classes last year from a semi-local state university, 2 with the same professor. I had 4 of the 7  that worked to build a sense of community online. One kept promoting on campus activities even giving extra credit for multiple attendance. I thought that was unfair as many of us took the class online specifically because we couldn't go to campus at set times on a regular basis. 

 

I liked the online learning, but you're right, the networking and interaction was minimal. It's certainly not a way to be known if you don't make extra effort for your professor to know you, much less classmates. 

 

My university is expanding their online options. Some of the classes are done mostly online but meet on campus once a week. IMO a totally only experience would be okay if you have a job and need to finish a degree or don't need the networking opportunities for some reason. This board has more networking and community than any of my classes did last year. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think I found a better way of explaining my reservations over some of these programs.

 

There may be many reasons why a student needs extra help with academics or adjusting to college level work. But I don't think background makes someone more deserving of special programs than any other student who need help and is putting forward a good effort.

[Caroline]

I agree, but I'm surprised that there are colleges who exclude in that way. Mine did not. Others here have said otherwise as well. So I wonder how common it is that they only offer help to some and not others.

Some colleges (Georgia Southern comes to mind) have 'running start' type programs for students who may need some extra help getting used to college. Those are not open to everyone. I think GA Southern's is based on SAT scores more than demographics, but I think that may be what Sebastian is referring to. Some are based on socio-economic background. I have had former students who have attended those.

[Caroline]

Of course. The ones who don't attend class and don't do the homework are not attending help sessions for homework completion either.

But there are also a number of students who are in class on a fairly regular basis (and thus hear the announcements), and do the homework but do a poor job and don't come to help sessions/tutoring.

 

I see those students in high school, too. Some of them are in over their heads so deep that they cannot believe there is a way out. And then there are some who, for whatever reason, think they can just pull it out in the end. And, as a high school teacher, I will tell you many of my colleagues will help them do just that. But I think if you haven't been trying all semester, don't come to me with two weeks left expecting to learn calculus (or geometry or trig.) It isn't happening.

[73349]

I think it's a serious indictment of a high school when a student with a 50th-percentile SAT score and no study skills is in the top 10% of her class. :(  It's great that colleges are working with these kids, but I would like to see this addressed at the secondary level.

 

I went to a rather mediocre high school and came from that bottom economic quintile, but I was sufficiently well prepared academically that I could focus on the economic problems of attending college as needed.

[idnib]

Reminds of me of this story I read in the LA Times:

 

http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-c1-cal-freshmen-20130816-dto-htmlstory.html

 

 

School had always been his safe harbor.

Growing up in one of South Los Angeles' bleakest, most violent neighborhoods, he learned about the world by watching "Jeopardy" and willed himself to become a straight-A student.

His teachers and his classmates at Jefferson High all rooted for the slight and hopeful African American teenager. He was named the prom king, the most likely to succeed, the senior class salutatorian. He was accepted to UC Berkeley, one of the nation's most renowned public universities.

A semester later, Kashawn Campbell sat inside a cramped room on a dorm floor that Cal reserves for black students. It was early January, and he stared nervously at his first college transcript.

There wasn't much good to see.

 

[RootAnn]

I hesitate to admit the part that stood out to me the most was that the college had all sorts of info on the parent's schooling level & income that they were using for their decision on who to include in their TIP program. Is that on the application or are they pulling it from FAFSA?   :ohmy:

 

The rest of it didn't surprise me much.

[In The Great White North]

 

 

I hesitate to admit the part that stood out to me the most was that the college had all sorts of info on the parent's schooling level & income that they were using for their decision on who to include in their TIP program. Is that on the application or are they pulling it from FAFSA?    :ohmy:

 

 

 

To get a better sense of who these struggling students were, Laude started pulling records from the provost’s office. It wasn’t hard to discern a pattern. The students who were failing were mostly from low-income families. Many of them fit into certain ethnic, racial and geographic profiles: 

 

 

 

In 1999, at the beginning of the fall semester, Laude combed through the records of every student in his freshman chemistry class and identified about 50 who possessed at least two of the “adversity indicators†common among students who failed the course in the past: low SATs, low family income, less-educated parents. He invited them all to apply to a new program, which he would later give the august-sounding name the Texas Interdisciplinary Plan, or TIP. 

 

 

AT UT, he got the data from the Provost.  It's all on the "applyTexas" form.

 

https://www.applytexas.org/adappc/html/preview14/frs_1.html

[RootAnn]

AT UT, he got the data from the Provost.  It's all on the "applyTexas" form.

 

https://www.applytexas.org/adappc/html/preview14/frs_1.html

 

Thank you. From the link, it looks like most of the info they pulled is optional except where they were born (geographic indicators) or only required if you are applying for need-based financial awards (financial/family income info). 

 

I am so not looking forward to the massive info seeking that goes with applying to colleges. I did wonder how the privacy statement on the website applies for the data-mining the professor did. I did not check the University's GIC for more details on FERPA. I'm sure there's something in there that allows for what they are doing.

Texas public universities also comply with the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA), which prohibits the release of education records without student permission. For more details on FERPA, currently enrolled students should see the University's General Information Catalog....Consistent with FERPA, the administrators of ApplyTexas do not release personal student information to other parties unless they receive explicit written authorization to do so.

[Reefgazer]

I'm 51 years old and graduated undergrad almost 30 years ago; I'm still have those I'm-short-one-class dreams!  Do they ever stop?

 

It seems you and I have had very similar college life experiences.

I don't know what most colleges are like.  I went to a state school.  They had tons of free tutoring services for every subject.  They had a writing lab.  They had a math lab.  They had foreign language labs.  And they advertised.  If you needed help and didn't get any that was basically your own darn fault.  Study skills courses were available to anyone, but did not earn credit.  I never actually used any of the services. 

 

I am pretty amazed I graduated.  Sometimes I have nightmares that I'm short one class, and I can't seem to get through the class.  I wake up and think no I really did graduate. 

 

I did have a bit of a rough start.  I think mostly it was because I wasn't sure what I wanted to major in, and some of the beginning classes I found rather pointless and boring.  I started off at one school and transferred to another.  My worst class was World History.  The instructor was pretty lousy.  I didn't do the work.  I really didn't even read the book.  In order for me to transfer that class I had to get a 100 on the final exam to get a C (a class only transferred with a C).  I got 100 on the final.  It was a week of studying morning, noon, and night (and a lot of coffee and donuts..LOL). 

 

After that I did a lot better.  I took the hardest classes I could get into and sometimes asked for permission to get in.  I did better with a challenge.  If I wasn't challenged, I tended to sluff off. 

 

And I graduated cum laude. 

 

I suppose I'm tooting my own horn a bit here because after reading those stats I wasn't likely to graduate.  Probably the hardest thing for me is that I really did not have much support.  My parents weren't against me going to college, but they either didn't care or didn't imagine I'd graduate.  So they often said nothing at all.  But I was always the type that if I set my mind to something, I'd do it. 

 

I remember meeting someone from the same dorm who had flunked out of 2 colleges (and these weren't even top of the line schools).  Her parents had the money to deal with that.  I did not.  That was it for me.  I'm not sure they were doing her any favors, but it goes to show how much more support people with money might be getting. 

 

[Reefgazer]

At the university where I teach, the students who don't show up and don't do the homework are the ones who fail, so I see the same thing in that regard that others do.  But when I talk to them and dig deeper, "I didn't have child care", "Work called me in and I have to go" or "My husband is deployed (military town) and I couldn't study after I got off work and I fell asleep" were the three most common excuses I heard for not engaging the class.  Essentially, they were over-extended.

I took a few graduate courses and was surprised by how many graduate students fluff off.  Presentations from some were downright painful to listen to.  They couldn't seem to manage to use spell checker for two lines of text on a Power Point presentation.

 

I suspect in some cases students are just stretched too thin with work and family. 

 

[shawthorne44]

This floors me.  I guess I'd expect there will always be people out there who do that, but that many?  How did they get into college?  Why are they there?  I just don't get it.

 

Didn't everyone go to school with several people like that?  I think that High School teaches many kids that showing up for class is all that is required to pass.  Then they drink a lot, and don't even do that.  

 

Freshman Chem, a cute boy sits down next to me and starts talking.  He says he borrowed the book from his ex girlfriend and he hoped it wasn't jinxed because she failed.  Then he opens the book AND IT CRACKS.  She had literally never opened the book.  After we both recovered from the shock, he said that she didn't understand why she failed.  

 

One message about college that I think will benefit kids and not many get or comprehend, "College is hard.  You have to work at it and study.  It is not one long party."  

[shamima]

What a wonderful project!  Reminded me about my experience in Chemistry 102 - for Pre-med students. First day, the esteemed professor announced that 50% of the students will fail this class. What great news for an 18 year old in her first semester of college.

I got a B on the midterm/  I went to the academic support department and got tutoring.  The tutor showed how to do a problem and then asked me to solve it. While I tried to solve it, he chatted with another tutor, I never got a problem right with him and he didn't realize that he needed to be more attentive and supportive. He was getting $10 per hour to chat and look down at me. 

 

I wasn't a remedial student but definitely I had little academic related support at home.  My confidence dwindled and I ended up unofficially withdrawing from the course by not showing up for the final. Later on I chose computer science and did well. I ended up taking Geology and Astronomy for Science credits and had wonderful teachers. At graduation, I had mostly A's and B's on my transcript and the nice dean removed my unofficial withdraw turned 'F'.  It's been 27 years and I still remember the face of the arrogant chemistry professor. Sometimes, I wonder that I could have become a doctor or pursued something else in the healthcare field if there had been a support system in place.  Oh well...I am just glad that there are programs now.

 

btw, on the tutoring front, I tutored all through college and was much more attentive and supportive. One bad tutor had taught me how not to be one.

 

shamima

[creekland]

 But I am angry how high school here short-changes not only the gifted, but even the moderately smart students by not giving them the oft of struggle and challenge.

 

 

I think it's a serious indictment of a high school when a student with a 50th-percentile SAT score and no study skills is in the top 10% of her class. :(  It's great that colleges are working with these kids, but I would like to see this addressed at the secondary level.

 

I went to a rather mediocre high school and came from that bottom economic quintile, but I was sufficiently well prepared academically that I could focus on the economic problems of attending college as needed.

 

This is the ultimate issue being seen all over. 

 

I went to a very good high school.  There are other very good high schools out there.  Kids work, are challenged, and top kids do well on the SAT/ACT.  They head off to college that fit their scores and find themselves in those 400 or so students (in that class) getting As & Bs.  Many consider their freshman classes at state schools or lower to mid level private to be quite easy to be honest.  (BTDT - state school)

 

Then there are average high schools - like where I work.  Top students are NOT challenged.  They get As and Bs, but with absolutely no effort on their part.  They think learning is easy - they can do it.  What they don't realize is the bar is LOW, so of course it is easy to step over.  They don't even have to jump.

 

Their first sign should be those low SAT/ACT scores.  Top 7% students should regularly have top 7% scores (allowing for the occasional outlier).

 

Can these kids do better?  Who knows?  The bar was never raised, so how in the world can we know just how high they can jump?

 

Having worked with thousands over the years, MANY can jump so much higher than the low bar, but they don't know the bar is low.  They only know stepping over is so simple they can do it without effort.

 

Everyone tells them how great they are and they believe it.

 

Then they go to college and meet those from the good high schools - those who have that better math/science/English & more foundation and suddenly, they feel overwhelmed.  There needs to be some really quick learning going on, but some, rather than working for the first time ever, simply feel discouraged.  They might put forth half an attempt to jump, but they seriously don't know how.

 

If that learning curve doesn't come, these kids return home.  I see it year after year after year - esp when they go to large schools.  Smaller schools can be better at shepherding students, but sometimes, even smaller schools don't work as the student just feels overwhelmed at how much they don't know compared to their peers.  Then too, there can be social issues, and all those "freshman year" temptations with options for clubs, sports, and more.  To be honest, drinking gets some, but not the majority that I've come across - more get too involved in other things, then use them as an escape from the overwhelming feeling of being lost in class.

 

It's that overwhelming feeling that causes many to skip homework and/or class.  They are lost trying to do the homework.  They feel lost sitting in class.  Getting help is novel to them and it can be difficult to take that first step - esp early enough to make a difference.

 

THEN, my high school is average according to stats.  There are also bad high schools.

 

It is so incredibly sad, because if we could transform high schools, so much of this could be averted, but in my high school, even the admin and teachers are often resistant to change.  They have not seen better schools, so don't know "how" to do it and MANY will tell you "our kids just aren't that good."  That's BS to be honest.  Some of our kids (quite a few) are that good, but when we never raise the bar, how in the world will we know?

 

I'm glad colleges are starting to try to account for this as LIVES are at stake - esp in our society where a degree can be so important - but they really shouldn't have to IMO.

 

From my high school class I recall exactly one student who came home from college and that was due to not being able to stand living away from home.  (Of course, not all went to college - a great high school just sorts - it can't put talent in where it isn't and some kids are simply more talented at other things.  Their niches are different.)

 

From the high school where I work, MANY will return and opt for cc or no college.  Many others will start in more difficult majors or pre-med and drop "down" due to academics.

[creekland]

Oh... and race doesn't always matter.  Our high school is definitely majority Caucasian.  I just looked up official stats:

 

87% White

10% Hispanic

2% Black

1% Asian

 

18% eligible for free lunch

7% eligible for reduced lunch

 

It's the same low bar for all.

 

[Teachin'Mine]

This is probably one of the main reasons why I feel so strongly that high school students can benefit so much from dual enrollment.  IMO all students who are planning on any type of college after graduation should take at least a course or two so they learn what's required to succeed in college.  They're still at home with some parental oversight, and they enter their freshman year with some skills and insights that they wouldn't have had otherwise.   The more rigorous high school is, the more seamless the transition, but unfortunately many high schools just don't provide that level of challenge.

 

I thoroughly agree that any college skills/prep courses or programs should be open to all interested students no matter what their economic situation or level of their parents' education.   I would think that a questionnaire combined with some testing, or their test scores, could help to identify these students.

[Barbara H]

I wonder what high schools could be doing to better prepare students for the transition to more independent work and responsibility. It seems to come as a huge surprise to a lot of first year college students that they have to be self regulating to do reading and homework even if it isn't graded and also a huge surprise that there won't be extracredit or do-overs. The big reason I see first year students failing, especially math classes, is that they simply do not keep up with doing the work. It isn't that the work is overwhelming or even terribly time consuming, it is that the student needs to make the choice to do it consistently even if it isn't graded.

 

 

[creekland]

Do you feel local control is gone? Or is it so local that only politically prominent families' advanced course requests are implemented?

 

 

Local control being over-ridden is good in our case.  It's the locals who see nothing at all wrong with status quo and who are resistant to change.  Our new state tests and state standards ARE shifting our classes in a good direction - more is being covered.  More expectations are being made.  But... it is a long and difficult road shifting local attitudes.

 

It's not just "me" who has noticed.  Our school got a college counselor in due to one of those "Teach for America" types of deals.  He couldn't believe what he saw.  He started an SAT prep class only to find out he had to not prep the students, but teach the math - to kids who were getting As in their classes.  I told him, "Welcome to my world!"  He saw kids who were top of their class thinking they'd go to Ivy schools with an 1800 SAT score - thrilled that they broke 600 in a section or two.

 

He did his best to try to both counsel kids and see if "the system" could be changed even a tiny bit.  Then his funding ran out.  Our school tried to keep him and even did a local fundraiser to raise his salary, but it didn't work... locals aren't interested in such shenanigans and few believe kids here can "do it."  He's gone now (sigh) with no replacement.

 

In our school, if a question in a math class trips up too many kids, we don't make the material change to teach it better.  We drop the question from the test.

 

We have talented youngsters taking the same class as 12th grade "need a credit" students.  The class has to be dumbed down so those needing a redit can pass.  It certainly isn't an option to make it tougher to prepare the talented students.  I'm doubtful many of the teachers could handle tougher material TBH.

 

In English they regularly read books well below grade level to keep all classes level (4th grade level in 8th grade).  All papers are done in class rather than at home.  That's a lot of instructional time lost while they are researching and typing.  Many times reading time is given in class too - and let's not forget watching the movie version of the book.

 

I have yet to see any racism or classism come into play at all in our school when it comes to classes or expectations.  That is the one good thing about it.  The teachers/admin do try and many are sincere.  They just really have no clue what "good" schools can do (material, expectations, etc) and if discussed, they are firm that "it can't happen here with our kids!" (meaning, of course, that all those "better" kids simply live elsewhere - ours must be inferior or something.)  It's not true. It's just kids who start from elementary on with low expectations.

 

This is probably one of the main reasons why I feel so strongly that high school students can benefit so much from dual enrollment.  IMO all students who are planning on any type of college after graduation should take at least a course or two so they learn what's required to succeed in college.  They're still at home with some parental oversight, and they enter their freshman year with some skills and insights that they wouldn't have had otherwise.   The more rigorous high school is, the more seamless the transition, but unfortunately many high schools just don't provide that level of challenge.

 

I thoroughly agree that any college skills/prep courses or programs should be open to all interested students no matter what their economic situation or level of their parents' education.   I would think that a questionnaire combined with some testing, or their test scores, could help to identify these students.

 

Well... even our cc classes (DE) are NOT up to par with college classes my youngest has sat in on.  We do offer them and have had kids get As in them only to still test into remedial math/English.

 

I wonder what high schools could be doing to better prepare students for the transition to more independent work and responsibility. It seems to come as a huge surprise to a lot of first year college students that they have to be self regulating to do reading and homework even if it isn't graded and also a huge surprise that there won't be extracredit or do-overs. The big reason I see first year students failing, especially math classes, is that they simply do not keep up with doing the work. It isn't that the work is overwhelming or even terribly time consuming, it is that the student needs to make the choice to do it consistently even if it isn't graded.

 

We have taught our students that homework is only necessary if there is a reward (grade) and that reward can be obtained just as easily by copying or writing down mush (since they "tried"), so why bother with the "work" part?

 

Our kids have excellent copying and following directions skills (as long as the directions are step by step and do not require thought).  They totally miss concepts of what they are doing or are supposed to be learning.  Things are memorized for the test and forgotten soon thereafter as the "knowledge" was never truly learned (just listen to the complaints if you put a test off for a day - "But I won't KNOW the material then!!!  I studied for today!").

 

And this is normal.  So when the ACT/SAT are mixed questions - they don't know which thought they memorized that is supposed to be used for these mixed problems - even if they could do just fine on a test where the questions were more or less known ahead of time.  And many times the test is exactly what the practice test (homework) was - not even changed numbers.  How much effort does that take?

 

Our kids are getting As, but stepping over very low bars, then they are taken off guard when tossed into the true high jump in college.

 

It's sad.  It happens in math, English, and science - likely history too, since some of the final exam questions for world history were such basic items as "Who was Hitler?"  My kids were able to score 90% (missed two) on the World History final before they even took the course.  I forgot the second question they missed, but the first asked which nation the Industrial Revolution started in.  (If I were to search very old threads, I could come up with the actual final as I typed it in at the time.) 

[Bootsie]

I wonder what high schools could be doing to better prepare students for the transition to more independent work and responsibility. It seems to come as a huge surprise to a lot of first year college students that they have to be self regulating to do reading and homework even if it isn't graded and also a huge surprise that there won't be extracredit or do-overs. The big reason I see first year students failing, especially math classes, is that they simply do not keep up with doing the work. It isn't that the work is overwhelming or even terribly time consuming, it is that the student needs to make the choice to do it consistently even if it isn't graded.

 

DD high school did a good job of this with what they called a "mod" system.  This modular scheduling system helps students learn to work independently, seek help when needed, and to recognize when they need help.  The day was broken into short time blocks, say 15 minutes, Biology might meet for 2 mods on Mon, Tues, and Wed, and 6 mods on Friday.  This would provide time for lectures on some days and labs on others.  This would leave less than the required number of "contact hours" but students had many "open mods" during the day--so do the teachers.  So, if Molly is doing fine in biology but needs extra help in algebra, she goes to algebra during her open mods.  This reduced the amount of wasted time by top students sitting in class waiting for others to finish their work.  The students come out expecting to go ask for help rather than being intimidated to do so.  They learn to use those small amounts of time between classes that can be so helpful in college.

 

I agree that the extra credit, do-over atmosphere in high school is also a major problem when students hit college.  In my opinion, many of the AP courses in high school are not really college level and mislead students about the workload--even to the point of having them develop bad habits that are detrimental to college success 

[Jane in NC]

I wonder what high schools could be doing to better prepare students for the transition to more independent work and responsibility. It seems to come as a huge surprise to a lot of first year college students that they have to be self regulating to do reading and homework even if it isn't graded and also a huge surprise that there won't be extracredit or do-overs. The big reason I see first year students failing, especially math classes, is that they simply do not keep up with doing the work. It isn't that the work is overwhelming or even terribly time consuming, it is that the student needs to make the choice to do it consistently even if it isn't graded.

I do think that part of the issue is that some students only see the world through grades.  They fail to understand that not doing the (ungraded) homework will lead to a bad test grade. 

 

In my opinion, there is another issue here. Students are not asked to read text books in high school.  One of my standard tricks was to put an example or two from the text on tests and point out afterward that if the students had read the text as required they would have seen the problem already.  I truly wonder if low reading comprehension is the root cause of the problem in math and college success in general.

 

Of course, another issue with math is that so many high school students were taught math algorithmically.  They learn procedures which may or may not be retained.  Prime example:  trig.  I hate to tell you how many students I have had who were told they had to memorize several pages of formulas.   My method has students record about an index card of basic relationships and formulae; everything else is derived. Knowing how to derive trig formulas means that a student can pull things out of their mental tool box later when using trig substitutions in integration theory, for example.  Someone who has memorized a pile of formulas is not going to recall them off the cuff two years later.

 

Back to the reading issue: Over this holiday weekend, I attended a party where I had a conversation with a second grade teacher who is being transferred to a public Montessori school.  She has had no formal Montessori training.The only thing she knows about the method is what she learned from visiting the school and from reading online.  I implored her to read Maria Montessori. Anyone can do anything and call it "Montessori" since it is not a trademarked term.  It blows me away that a teacher would not turn to primary source material first!  But perhaps this is problematic of the times.  Students look online for truth and fail to crack open the books!

[Teachin'Mine]

Local control being over-ridden is good in our case.  It's the locals who see nothing at all wrong with status quo and who are resistant to change.  Our new state tests and state standards ARE shifting our classes in a good direction - more is being covered.  More expectations are being made.  But... it is a long and difficult road shifting local attitudes.

 

It's not just "me" who has noticed.  Our school got a college counselor in due to one of those "Teach for America" types of deals.  He couldn't believe what he saw.  He started an SAT prep class only to find out he had to not prep the students, but teach the math - to kids who were getting As in their classes.  I told him, "Welcome to my world!"  He saw kids who were top of their class thinking they'd go to Ivy schools with an 1800 SAT score - thrilled that they broke 600 in a section or two.

 

He did his best to try to both counsel kids and see if "the system" could be changed even a tiny bit.  Then his funding ran out.  Our school tried to keep him and even did a local fundraiser to raise his salary, but it didn't work... locals aren't interested in such shenanigans and few believe kids here can "do it."  He's gone now (sigh) with no replacement.

 

In our school, if a question in a math class trips up too many kids, we don't make the material change to teach it better.  We drop the question from the test.

 

We have talented youngsters taking the same class as 12th grade "need a credit" students.  The class has to be dumbed down so those needing a redit can pass.  It certainly isn't an option to make it tougher to prepare the talented students.  I'm doubtful many of the teachers could handle tougher material TBH.

 

In English they regularly read books well below grade level to keep all classes level (4th grade level in 8th grade).  All papers are done in class rather than at home.  That's a lot of instructional time lost while they are researching and typing.  Many times reading time is given in class too - and let's not forget watching the movie version of the book.

 

I have yet to see any racism or classism come into play at all in our school when it comes to classes or expectations.  That is the one good thing about it.  The teachers/admin do try and many are sincere.  They just really have no clue what "good" schools can do (material, expectations, etc) and if discussed, they are firm that "it can't happen here with our kids!" (meaning, of course, that all those "better" kids simply live elsewhere - ours must be inferior or something.)  It's not true. It's just kids who start from elementary on with low expectations.

 

 

Well... even our cc classes (DE) are NOT up to par with college classes my youngest has sat in on.  We do offer them and have had kids get As in them only to still test into remedial math/English.

 

 

We have taught our students that homework is only necessary if there is a reward (grade) and that reward can be obtained just as easily by copying or writing down mush (since they "tried"), so why bother with the "work" part?

 

Our kids have excellent copying and following directions skills (as long as the directions are step by step and do not require thought).  They totally miss concepts of what they are doing or are supposed to be learning.  Things are memorized for the test and forgotten soon thereafter as the "knowledge" was never truly learned (just listen to the complaints if you put a test off for a day - "But I won't KNOW the material then!!!  I studied for today!").

 

And this is normal.  So when the ACT/SAT are mixed questions - they don't know which thought they memorized that is supposed to be used for these mixed problems - even if they could do just fine on a test where the questions were more or less known ahead of time.  And many times the test is exactly what the practice test (homework) was - not even changed numbers.  How much effort does that take?

 

Our kids are getting As, but stepping over very low bars, then they are taken off guard when tossed into the true high jump in college.

 

It's sad.  It happens in math, English, and science - likely history too, since some of the final exam questions for world history were such basic items as "Who was Hitler?"  My kids were able to score 90% (missed two) on the World History final before they even took the course.  I forgot the second question they missed, but the first asked which nation the Industrial Revolution started in.  (If I were to search very old threads, I could come up with the actual final as I typed it in at the time.) 

 

Your post describes your school's unfortunate situation so well, but I just can't seem to "Like" it.  How incredibly sad as your whole community is impacted.

 

As far as your community college classes not being on par, at least the students who take the classes will still need to learn how to schedule classes, talk with professors, start or join study groups, hand in assignments on time, navigate the college's email, registration, notification, etc. system, get to class on time, read and follow a syllabus, etc..  These are all great skills to have before college, and if they find they are having trouble, it gives them time to get help so those same problems don't prevent them from succeeding after graduation.  Not all community colleges are equal, and not all courses within a college are equal, and not all diplomas from colleges are equal.  Those who seek a challenge should be able to find it at most colleges, but of course there are always exceptions.   Even if a course isn't on par, they will still have the knowledge they gained and a class taught at a more rigorous level will be easier for them because of their previous exposure to the material.  I'll bet that yours have gone into college with more confidence because of their community college experiences.

 

 

[Bootsie]

I do think that part of the issue is that some students only see the world through grades.  They fail to understand that not doing the (ungraded) homework will lead to a bad test grade. 

 

In my opinion, there is another issue here. Students are not asked to read text books in high school.  One of my standard tricks was to put an example or two from the text on tests and point out afterward that if the students had read the text as required they would have seen the problem already.  I truly wonder if low reading comprehension is the root cause of the problem in math and college success in general.

 

 

 

I have found that more and more college students don't read the textbook--and I have found out that they don't even know what it means.

 

I had one in my office last year who said, "Oh, you mean look at  the powerpoints."  Talking to a high school AP teacher I learned that many school districts offering AP courses do not have in the budget to purchase college textbooks.  The teachers are given the publisher prepared powerpoints and the students are told that is the "book".

 

I had a student failing last semester who asked what he needed to do to improve his grade.  I said, "I would start with reading the book."  His response was, "No, I don't learn that way.  What do you suggest I do?"  I repeated, "I would read the book..."  I had to point out to him that his way was not working and that he wasn't willing to take my advice as a professor with over 25 years of teaching so there wasn't much I could do to help him.

[kiana]

I had a student failing last semester who asked what he needed to do to improve his grade.  I said, "I would start with reading the book."  His response was, "No, I don't learn that way.  What do you suggest I do?"  I repeated, "I would read the book..."  I had to point out to him that his way was not working and that he wasn't willing to take my advice as a professor with over 25 years of teaching so there wasn't much I could do to help him.

 

Pay your girlfriend to read the book to you? :P