My sure-to-be-unpopular opinion/rant...

[zoobie]

I think we differ on the definition of moral values. I prefer today's more "modern" values where people are not paying for the scalps of my children. Frankly gay marriage seems pretty darn great by comparison.

 

And women can vote, and black people are counted as a whole person in the census, and slavery is illegal, and...

 

The religious freedom the Constitution provides has been fairly constant over time.

[StaceyinLA]

 

You are aware by now of the irony of whining about whining ?

 

I care, as a pro choice woman, about your opinion on abortion. I care that you are never put in a position of being forced to violate your conscience by being made to have an abortion. If someone made you have an abortion, I would be devastated for you and very, very angry.

 

Where my care ends is precisely where you seek to deny other women the rights over their own bodies that they are more than happy to grant you.[/

 

Whining, venting, griping, complaining; whatever you choose to call it.

 

Since discussing abortion won't end well, I'll just suffice it to say that my reasons for being pro-life have everything to do with the human baby growing within a woman's body. It's not a personal attack on women. It's simply about the protection of vulnerable babies from the ultimate child abuse.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

**It's not blissful ignorance that's been the privilege. The privilege has been living in a country that was founded on moral, Christian values and principles. Sadly, our society has been gradually undermining that for years, and here we are.**

 

Sadly here we are?

Was this Christian nation better off when we were cheating Native Americans out of their lands, violating treaties, killing them when the resisted, and packing their kids off to reside in "Christian" schools so they could have the "heathen" beaten and starved out of them?

Was this Christian nation better off when we kept millions in chains? When those people could be sold off at their owner's whim? When families were torn apart? When the women could be abused sexually?

Was this Christian nation better off when women had limited rights?  When at times we could not own property/vote/divorce abusive spouses?

Was this Christian nation better off with Jim Crow laws in the south? Segregation? Lynchings?

 

I submit that a reasonable argument could be made that the United States was never built on Christian values...at least not ones Jesus would recognize.

[StaceyinLA]

I believe that to be an uninformed, inaccurate viewpoint and opinion. You are entitled to it, as readers are entitled to vehemently disagree.

 

If by Christian, you mean Jesus-inspired, I think inclusiveness, love, tolerance, and equality are Christian principles. Not that the Founding Fathers used Christian principles; they were mixed in their spirituality. I don't see Jesus principles involved in the hate being "protected" by the anti-PC rhetoric.

I am not remotely surprised that you disagree with me.

[SKL]

While the status of civil rights is a lot different today than it was at different times in history, the nature of intelligent, well-meaning human beings has not changed that much.  The ability to have two-sided or multi-sided debates is what produces social progress.

[idnib]

When white people were debating African Americans' right to vote, the people who were screaming and acting incontinent were, A, not the people who we now respect, and B, not the people who ultimately won out.

 

Is this a reply to my question? If so, it doesn't answer what I'm asking. But without a quote, it may be a reply to someone else; I can't tell.

[zoobie]

The claim that this nation was founded on moral, Christian values and principles has not been supported. The claim that it was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, appeal to rational thinking rather than religious or monarchical authority, a democratic republic, on the other hand, is supported. The historical record shows this. Nevertheless, I suspect the bolded is what causes you the real angst, the OP being a symptom of that angst. I don't agree with your premise here, and I find evidence to the contrary, but I'm glad to have gotten to the root of this concern. 

 

And dear old Thomas Jefferson, earlier revered in this thread, was very pro-separation of church and state.

 

In Query XVII of Notes on the State of Virginia, he clearly outlines the views which led him to play a leading role in the campaign to separate church and state and which culminated in the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom: "The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. ... Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error.[2] Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist.

 

http://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/jeffersons-religious-beliefs

[Slartibartfast]

When white people were debating African Americans' right to vote, the people who were screaming and acting incontinent were, A, not the people who we now respect, and B, not the people who ultimately won out.

 

 

I am not sure to what this is referring. Who is acting incontinent?

[Mrs Mungo]

No, it is not what I was saying. What I said was I doubt we will ever make it all go away. I feel no sorrow for the man, but if this were a murder trial and the confession was illegally obtained, a da** murderer would WALK FREE. I think the man is a despicable human being, but that doesn't negate the fact that the girl illegally recorded him to blackmail him. Do I care if he never earns another penny? No. Do I think he deserves special treatment? Absolutely not. I just think, in many other situations, this information would've been considered, "illegally obtained."

 

Whether it was illegally obtained has little to do with the court of public opinion or the ability of a private organization to take action against him. Those things are completely different than due process in a court of law. The courts should ABSOLUTELY be held to a higher standard in prosecuting a murder case than the NBA in not allowing a racist bigot to continue in a position of power. Those are entirely different from a legal standpoint. You understand this, yes?

 

 

My experience having lived in south LA (state) for a while, is that openly racist/ethnic slurs/classism comments in public will not automatically get shot down or defended. I had a number of them said to my face without the person knowing my beliefs. Exdh dealt with those issues numerous times in his line of work. I'm sure that's not simply endemic to South LA. Perhaps the OP sees that as people simply stating their opinion. Moving into that environment for a short period, I saw it as hateful and bigoted because many of those people stating those opinions held power over the category they were demeaning. And that folks, is my opinion.

 

Oh, I fully agree. I have been absolutely, positively shocked at some things people will openly say, clearly never believing they will be reprimanded for it.

 

 

I understood and understand your point. It's simply not on topic or accurate for the thread.

 

The men DID knowingly risk themselves by taking stands. And humans do the same today, every day. (In the US, anyway)

Your understanding of free speech, history, political change/cultural change and the whole process of change and dialog is not accurate.

 

I agree, and it's worth pointing out that Lincoln was SHOT for his beliefs and actions, I think.

 

 

This is what is concerning to me. But eh, that's what the Facebook dude said, that nobody is entitled to privacy. That is more and more becoming the case. I guess people will have to have their guests and family check their phones and recording devices at the door. Or maybe it is better not to have any friends or family at all. Then you don't have to worry about revenge if they turn on you.

 

Okay, so here is where I don't understand the OP. If you are going to be a racist, then BE a racist, don't be sorry for it and take whatever repercussions may come. Why is it "whining" for people to complain about racism, but it's not "whining" for the racist to face repercussions when caught out? If you aren't a racist, then you don't have to worry about someone recording you saying racist statements, do you?

 

 

**It's not blissful ignorance that's been the privilege. The privilege has been living in a country that was founded on moral, Christian values and principles. Sadly, our society has been gradually undermining that for years, and here we are.**

WOW. Those "Christian principles" in the recent past involved *kidnapping* Indian children and forcing them into missionary schools, stripping them of their cultural heritage and often their land and mineral rights. This is NOT ancient history, this happened within living memory.

[StaceyinLA]

Sadly here we are?

Was this Christian nation better off when we were cheating Native Americans out of their lands, violating treaties, killing them when the resisted, and packing their kids off to reside in "Christian" schools so they could have the "heathen" beaten and starved out of them?

Was this Christian nation better off when we kept millions in chains? When those people could be sold off at their owner's whim? When families were torn apart? When the women could be abused sexually?

Was this Christian nation better off when women had limited rights? When at times we could not own property/vote/divorce abusive spouses?

Was this Christian nation better off with Jim Crow laws in the south? Segregation? Lynchings?

 

I submit that a reasonable argument could be made that the United States was never built on Christian values...at least not ones Jesus would recognize.

I think we were better off when kids still prayed in school, and were spanked on occasion, and more moms stayed home and raised children, and families went to church together, and sex and violence wasn't glorified, and people had pride in their country and were willing to fight to protect it, and when the military was treated with the respect they deserve, and when crimes were actually punished, and when teens didn't kill other teens, or toddlers, or their parents, and when school shootings weren't common, and when victims had more rights than criminals, and on and on.

 

Call me old-fashioned, stupid, ignorant, whatever. I can take it.

[Mrs Mungo]

I think we were better off when kids still prayed in school, and were spanked on occasion, and more moms stayed home and raised children, and families went to church together, and sex and violence wasn't glorified, and people had pride in their country and were willing to fight to protect it, and when the military was treated with the respect they deserve, and when crimes were actually punished, and when teens didn't kill other teens, or toddlers, or their parents, and when school shootings weren't common, and when victims had more rights than criminals, and on and on.

 

Call me old-fashioned, stupid, ignorant, whatever. I can take it.

So, people who disagree with you about how racists should be treated are anti-military, anti-church, anti-punishment for criminals, anti-prayer, anti-patriotisim, pro-school shootings and so forth? Come on, you know that is ridiculous.

[zoobie]

I think we were better off when kids still prayed in school, and were spanked on occasion, and more moms stayed home and raised children, and families went to church together, and sex and violence wasn't glorified, and people had pride in their country and were willing to fight to protect it, and when the military was treated with the respect they deserve, and when crimes were actually punished, and when teens didn't kill other teens, or toddlers, or their parents, and when school shootings weren't common, and when victims had more rights than criminals, and on and on.

 

Call me old-fashioned, stupid, ignorant, whatever. I can take it.

 

When exactly was this Utopic time? 

 

As far as praying in school goes, I'm assuming you want the prayer to be Christian, but which sect specifically?

[idnib]

I think we were better off when kids still prayed in school, and were spanked on occasion, and more moms stayed home and raised children, and families went to church together, and sex and violence wasn't glorified, and people had pride in their country and were willing to fight to protect it, and when the military was treated with the respect they deserve, and when crimes were actually punished, and when teens didn't kill other teens, or toddlers, or their parents, and when school shootings weren't common, and when victims had more rights than criminals, and on and on.

 

Call me old-fashioned, stupid, ignorant, whatever. I can take it.

 

 

I'll go with ignorant, then:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

 

A list of school shootings dating back to the 1760s, including this gem:

 

August 16, 1856: Florence, Alabama, The school master had a tame sparrow of which he was very fond, and had warned the students that if any of them killed it, they will die by his hands. By accident, or intentionally, one of the boys stepped on the bird and killed it. Alarmed by the threats, the boy was afraid to return to school, but the Master begged him to come back. He did so, and after the lessons were finished, he took the boy into a private room, and strangled him. Upon the boy's father hearing what had occurred, he loaded his gun and went and shot the schoolmaster dead

 

[Slartibartfast]

I think we were better off when kids still prayed in school, and were spanked on occasion, and more moms stayed home and raised children, and families went to church together, and sex and violence wasn't glorified, and people had pride in their country and were willing to fight to protect it, and when the military was treated with the respect they deserve, and when crimes were actually punished, and when teens didn't kill other teens, or toddlers, or their parents, and when school shootings weren't common, and when victims had more rights than criminals, and on and on.

 

Call me old-fashioned, stupid, ignorant, whatever. I can take it.

 

School shootings are not a modern concept. My aunt has spoken about a shooting that occurred at her high  school in the 70s.

 

Prayer is not limited except for insisting others also pray. State sanctioned or mandatory prayer is what is not permitted. It is NOT TRUE that kids cannot pray in school.

 

We all have the right to a fair trial. I wouldn't want mine taken away if someone thought I was a criminal but I was innocent.

 

If people want moms to stay home and raise children then people ought to be supporting The Living Wage. Someone cannot stay home with the kids if they cannot afford it.

[StaceyinLA]

 

Whether it was illegally obtained has little to do with the court of public opinion or the ability of a private organization to take action against him. Those things are completely different than due process in a court of law. The courts should ABSOLUTELY be held to a higher standard in prosecuting a murder case than the NBA in not allowing a racist bigot to continue in a position of power. Those are entirely different from a legal standpoint. You understand this, yes?

 

**I really don't need to be talked down to. Of course I understand that a murder trial is more serious, and yet, because a murder trial is more serious, it seems just because information was illegally obtained wouldn't mean it had to be discarded. Seems logical, yes?**

 

Oh, I fully agree. I have been absolutely, positively shocked at some things people will openly say, clearly never believing they will be reprimanded for it.

 

 

I agree, and it's worth pointing out that Lincoln was SHOT for his beliefs and actions, I think.

 

 

Okay, so here is where I don't understand the OP. If you are going to be a racist, then BE a racist, don't be sorry for it and take whatever repercussions may come. Why would is it "whining" for people to complain about racism, but it's not "whining" for the racist to face repercussions when caught out? If you aren't a racist, then you don't have to worry about someone recording you saying racist statements, do you?

 

It's not a problem to complain about racism. Geez. I think racism is pretty awful, and I live in an area where it is certainly not extinct. I have had some rather ugly discussions with seriously backward folk around here. However, in the grand scheme, if some schmuck makes a racist comment in his home (and let's pretend he doesn't own a basketball team), does it make a big difference?

 

 

WOW. Those "Christian principles" in the recent past involved *kidnapping* Indian children and forcing them into missionary schools, stripping them of their cultural heritage and often their land and mineral rights. This is NOT ancient history, this happened within living memory.

And what about the things kids are doing today?

[Slartibartfast]

And what about the things kids are doing today?

 

How is it different than what they have always done?

[Mrs Mungo]

**I really don't need to be talked down to. Of course I understand that a murder trial is more serious, and yet, because a murder trial is more serious, it seems just because information was illegally obtained wouldn't mean it had to be discarded. Seems logical, yes?**

No, that isn't how the law works. That isn't how the courts work. The court must be above reproach.

 

 

It's not a problem to complain about racism. Geez. I think racism is pretty awful, and I live in an area where it is certainly not extinct. I have had some rather ugly discussions with seriously backward folk around here. However, in the grand scheme, if some schmuck makes a racist comment in his home (and let's pretend he doesn't own a basketball team), does it make a big difference?

When you are talking about a franchise owner who holds the jobs and livelihoods of his players in his hands? Yes, it makes a difference.

 

 

 

And what about the things kids are doing today?

What things WHAT kids are doing today? The idyllic time you wish had existed only existed in people's minds and/or in the hands of the privileged few.

[Χά�ων]

And what about the things kids are doing today?

What things? Do you mean the students who are working towards eliminating racism? Those who are advocating for equality in marriage? How about the kids who convinced their school to turn a large portion of the school's grass area into a garden to grow produce to donate to hungry families? Or the students who are working to eliminate the word "retarded" from the vocabulary of their peers? How about the kids who raised money to help out a family struggling to pay for necessary medical treatment? 

 

Or perhaps you are focusing on the negative that is so often hyper-focused on in the media? 

[catz]

I'll go with ignorant, then:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

 

A list of school shootings dating back to the 1760s, including this gem:

 

I'm going to throw in this gem.  If you have a hankering for the "good ole days", try and take a look at this book.  It is the newspaper clippings and photos from one small area in Wisconsin in the 1890's and trust me, nothing is left out.  Murder, mental illness, adultery, arson, scandal, spousal abuse, etc.  We have nothing on the good ole days. 

http://www.amazon.com/Wisconsin-Death-Trip-Michael-Lesy/dp/0826321933/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398809227&sr=8-1&keywords=wisconsin+death+trip

[Mrs Mungo]

Understand, you are coming across as saying, "it sure was easier being white and middle class before so many people got enough political/financial power to actually do something about bigots."

 

ed for clarity and a typo

[StaceyinLA]

Well, you're entitled to feel that way Stacey. I question whether you're entitled to use that view to deny other women autonomy over their own bodies.

 

Given that you raised the issue of abortion more than once, it's a little disingenuous to shy away from it with a 'never ends well' platitude.

 

I brought it up using it as an example, and then showing my reasoning regarding voting. My position is not a secret, nor is yours. You say it's a woman's body, so it's her choice; I believe the baby is a separate human being and deserves a right to life.

 

Is there really need for further discussion? It won't end well because I'm not going to change your mind, and you aren't going to change mine.

[elegantlion]

I think we were better off when kids still prayed in school, and were spanked on occasion, and more moms stayed home and raised children, and families went to church together, and sex and violence wasn't glorified, and people had pride in their country and were willing to fight to protect it, and when the military was treated with the respect they deserve, and when crimes were actually punished, and when teens didn't kill other teens, or toddlers, or their parents, and when school shootings weren't common, and when victims had more rights than criminals, and on and on.

 

Call me old-fashioned, stupid, ignorant, whatever. I can take it.

 

 

moms staying home and raising children has historically been a white middle-class privilege. This is not a tradition for every race or socio-economic level. 

 

Violence glorified? How about the KKK ? 

 

Pride in their country? - sure as long as you look and sound like everyone around you - I take pride in the diversity in my country. 

 

military treated with respect? Like Vietnam vets? I will say that the veterans of my generation probably have a much easier transition back into society than those of the 60s and 70s. Did Vietnam vets get applause in an airport? - probably not.

 

Crimes punished? Yup, they still do that. 

 

victims more right then criminals? What about the victims in Jennings LA? Have they found the killer yet? I found this expose interesting (probably linked from someone else here) 

 

What about the first black mayor ever elected in Westlake LA? He never got to serve because he died under suspicious terms 3 days before taking office, ruled a suicide, but still questioned by those who knew him well. 

[mavirnich]

While the status of civil rights is a lot different today than it was at different times in history, the nature of intelligent, well-meaning human beings has not changed that much. The ability to have two-sided or multi-sided debates is what produces social progress.

I don't recall much two sided debating in the 60s when African Americans wanted social progress. Unless of course you count hangings, church bombings and being doused with a fire hose as one side of a debate.

[StaceyinLA]

So, people who disagree with you about how racists should be treated are anti-military, anti-church, anti-punishment for criminals, anti-prayer, anti-patriotisim, pro-school shootings and so forth? Come on, you know that is ridiculous.

 

 

Seriously? I get that the racism is a hot-button issue for you, and many others, but I do NOT have an issue with people calling down racists. I do NOT support racism. I am not sure how many times I have to say this. And nowhere in that post did I indicate that it any of that had anything to do with anti-racism.

[Lady Florida.]

it can 'feel' like I don't get to have my opinion, but I know that's not actually the case.  Of course I can have and state my opinion, but I might get told that it's offensive and have people debate me on it.  It would be pretty whiny of me to complain about it though.  

 

 

Ignorant? What does that word mean to you?

 

He wanted his *half black girlfriend* to stop hanging out with *black people* in public because he found it personally embarrassing. He said it *to her*. If she finds it offensive enough to tell the world his private beliefs, she can do that. If the public finds it offensive enough to push back, then the public can push back. That's how free speech works. We ALL have free speech. Free speech IN NO WAY means you can say whatever you please without fear of facing repercussions.

 

Yes, to the bolded in both quotes. Too many people think free speech (without even getting into the fact that it only relates to the government) means no one should disagree with you. 

[Amy in NH]

I brought it up using it as an example, and then showing my reasoning regarding voting. My position is not a secret, nor is yours. You say it's a woman's body, so it's her choice; I believe the baby is a separate human being and deserves a right to life.

 

Is there really need for further discussion? It won't end well because I'm not going to change your mind, and you aren't going to change mine.

 

A baby is a separate human being.  A baby is a different thing than a zygote, embryo, or even a fetus.

 

I think you may be looking at the past with rose-colored glasses.

[Denise in Florida]

I think we were better off when kids still prayed in school, and were spanked on occasion, and more moms stayed home and raised children, and families went to church together, and sex and violence wasn't glorified, and people had pride in their country and were willing to fight to protect it, and when the military was treated with the respect they deserve, and when crimes were actually punished, and when teens didn't kill other teens, or toddlers, or their parents, and when school shootings weren't common, and when victims had more rights than criminals, and on and on.

 

Call me old-fashioned, stupid, ignorant, whatever. I can take it.

 

When was this?  I agree that the world and our country could behave better. I would love to see law abided and military respected.

 

The world you describe is either a fantasy or a reality for a very small section of people.  Women have worked out side the home and have been forced to choose between feeding their children and being with them for many many years. It is only lately that they have received respect and closer to the pay they deserve for making that choice.

 

There is a great appeal in thinking that the world was so much better before people started demanding all those pesky 'rights', but it was only better on a small, small scale.  I pray for peace and for wisdom for our leaders. I believe rights come with responsibility but I will take the world as it is, thank you. 

[Mrs Mungo]

Seriously? I get that the racism is a hot-button issue for you, and many others, but I do NOT have an issue with people calling down racists. I do NOT support racism. I am not sure how many times I have to say this. And nowhere in that post did I indicate that it any of that had anything to do with anti-racism.

Read these two posts together:

 

 

I try not to post controversial things on any forum/social media, etc., but I seriously cannot wrap my head around why everyone in this country is so whiny, and can never tolerate an opinion that is different from, or even possibly offensive to, their own. When did EVERYTHING have to become so politically correct that a person isn't entitled to their own opinion?

 

There are ALWAYS going to be people who are racist. They are ALWAYS going to be people who disagree with gay marriage. There are ALWAYS going to be people who are staunchly pro-life. There are ALWAYS going to be people who are pro-choice. There are ALWAYS going to be people who mock others for their beliefs, the way they look, act, dress, etc.

 

I just don't understand how, in a supposed free country, we think we can demand that everyone will agree on everything, and no one will ever say anything offensive.

 

I can tell you - I was picked on mercilessly throughout a lot of my school years (it's probably one of the biggest reasons I chose to home school my kids). I am a normal, functional human being who never shot up my school, blamed anyone, required years of therapy, or anything of that nature. Kids are cruel. People are cruel. It was just life, and I dealt with it. I guess I just do not understand why people these days can't do the same.

 

 

 

I think we were better off when kids still prayed in school, and were spanked on occasion, and more moms stayed home and raised children, and families went to church together, and sex and violence wasn't glorified, and people had pride in their country and were willing to fight to protect it, and when the military was treated with the respect they deserve, and when crimes were actually punished, and when teens didn't kill other teens, or toddlers, or their parents, and when school shootings weren't common, and when victims had more rights than criminals, and on and on.

 

Call me old-fashioned, stupid, ignorant, whatever. I can take it.

 

 You *appear* to be drawing a correlation between a time when people could say whatever bigoted thing they wanted and get away with it and other societal issues that you believe (wrongly) existed at the same time for everyone within our society. If that isn't what you mean, then I honestly don't know what you mean.

[plumshadow]

I think we were better off when kids still prayed in school, and were spanked on occasion, and more moms stayed home and raised children, and families went to church together, and sex and violence wasn't glorified, and people had pride in their country and were willing to fight to protect it, and when the military was treated with the respect they deserve, and when crimes were actually punished, and when teens didn't kill other teens, or toddlers, or their parents, and when school shootings weren't common, and when victims had more rights than criminals, and on and on.

 

Call me old-fashioned, stupid, ignorant, whatever. I can take it.

 

Well not really ALL of "we" were better off in the good ol' days. My grandfather probably remembered those time a little different. Praying in a school that was subpar because he wasn't allowed to mix with whites. Getting spanked not only by his parents but also other adults who never stopped calling him "boy" no matter how old he was. His wife stayed home with other people's children trying to supplement the less than fair wage he had to live off.  Putting out the burning cross on the Church lawn every Sunday before service.  Friends and family systematically raped and hung from trees to thwart anyone who wanted to take too much pride in their country and dared to fight to protect it.  Putting the his equally  valuable life on the line in military service with those who made it their mission to show he was not wanted. Crimes were punished 100% of time whether or not they actually had the right suspect.  Teens killed many other teens, toddlers and parents usually under the guise of a white hood and school bombings were often more common than shooting and usually the victims were treated like criminals.  Too bad he never got to see those  wonderful days you mentioned I'm sure he would have loved them

[StaceyinLA]

What things ?

 

I thought I rendered you speechless...

 

Some things:

 

Murdering other kids, family members, etc., some just for the fun of it, or to see what it "felt" like (certainly including mass shootings)

 

Bullying (obviously prevalent since my thoughts on the matter were quickly shut down)

 

Social behaviors that get progressively worse (have any of you seen some of the parties/orgies/dances, etc.)

 

Blatant disrespect towards adults and those in authority positions

 

Threatening those in authority positions (teachers especially)

 

Just entitlement attitudes in general that they seem to "deserve" everything

 

 

Certainly some of this is parenting, or lack of, but there are some huge social problems going on with our teen culture.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I think we were better off when kids still prayed in school, and were spanked on occasion, and more moms stayed home and raised children, and families went to church together, and sex and violence wasn't glorified, and people had pride in their country and were willing to fight to protect it, and when the military was treated with the respect they deserve, and when crimes were actually punished, and when teens didn't kill other teens, or toddlers, or their parents, and when school shootings weren't common, and when victims had more rights than criminals, and on and on.

 

Call me old-fashioned, stupid, ignorant, whatever. I can take it.

 

Old fashioned? Nah.

Naive or blissfully unaware of the harsh realities of life for many in what you consider "better" times would be a reasonable criticism.

 

(When crimes were punished?  You mean like when child molesters were not even reported to the authorities by national organizations like churches and the BSA?)

[Anne in CA]

Wow.  That's  very thinly veiled.  

 

Small, nutty minority, indeed.

As far as being cryptic, I think you have given me more credit than I actually deserve. I do not have any predictions on WHICH group of people are going to make changes, I just have read enough history to know that a majority does not have the power some people think they do. The reason I mixed up Nazis, communists, and Islamic extremists was that I have no idea who will make the next power grab in our country, but I believe that most of our country would rather listen to propaganda than grow as people, and that can't lead anywhere good. That is all. 

[StaceyinLA]

Read these two posts together:

 

 

 

 

 You *appear* to be drawing a correlation between a time when people could say whatever bigoted thing they wanted and get away with it and other societal issues that you believe (wrongly) existed at the same time for everyone within our society. If that isn't what you mean, then I honestly don't know what you mean.

 

Except that you took my original post, and linked it to something that happened 5 pages into the discussion, and hundreds of posts later.

 

Since I don't remember a time when being racist was actually acceptable, I can't say I wish for a time when people could make bigoted comments with no repercussions. 

[zoobie]

I thought I rendered you speechless...

 

Some things:

 

Murdering other kids, family members, etc., some just for the fun of it, or to see what it "felt" like (certainly including mass shootings)

 

Bullying (obviously prevalent since my thoughts on the matter were quickly shut down)

 

Social behaviors that get progressively worse (have any of you seen some of the parties/orgies/dances, etc.)

 

Blatant disrespect towards adults and those in authority positions

 

Threatening those in authority positions (teachers especially)

 

Just entitlement attitudes in general that they seem to "deserve" everything

 

 

Certainly some of this is parenting, or lack of, but there are some huge social problems going on with our teen culture.

None of these is a modern problem. They all date back pre-Biblical times. There may be modern twists on the execution of the illicit behavior, but it's not new.

[Mrs Mungo]

I thought I rendered you speechless...

 

Some things:

 

Murdering other kids, family members, etc., some just for the fun of it, or to see what it "felt" like (certainly including mass shootings)

 

Bullying (obviously prevalent since my thoughts on the matter were quickly shut down)

 

Social behaviors that get progressively worse (have any of you seen some of the parties/orgies/dances, etc.)

 

Blatant disrespect towards adults and those in authority positions

 

Threatening those in authority positions (teachers especially)

 

Just entitlement attitudes in general that they seem to "deserve" everything

 

 

Certainly some of this is parenting, or lack of, but there are some huge social problems going on with our teen culture.

None of these things are new. Not one.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA0_NRjx9KQ

[ChocolateReignRemix]

And FTR, I consider myself very patriotic and I love my country.  That is why I criticize it when needed and why I work to make it a better place.

[Lady Florida.]

I think we were better off when kids still prayed in school, and were spanked on occasion, and more moms stayed home and raised children, and families went to church together, and sex and violence wasn't glorified, and people had pride in their country and were willing to fight to protect it, and when the military was treated with the respect they deserve, and when crimes were actually punished, and when teens didn't kill other teens, or toddlers, or their parents, and when school shootings weren't common, and when victims had more rights than criminals, and on and on.

 

Call me old-fashioned, stupid, ignorant, whatever. I can take it.

 

The time you pine for (which never really existed) was also when mental illness was a "character flaw" and both domestic violence and child abuse was considered a family affair and no one else's business. It was also a time when lynch mobs were, well mobs of people who actually lynched men for the crime of being black. 

 

"The good old days weren't always good, and tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems." ~ Billy Joel

[justasque]

I think we were better off when kids still prayed in school, ...

Call me old-fashioned, stupid, ignorant, whatever. I can take it.

 

My kids pray in school, as do many kids, from many faiths, across the country.  Kids participate in teacher-led prayer in our nation's many private faith-based schools, and they participate in individual prayer, in line with their own faith, in public schools.  I don't think it would be appropriate for a child to be led in a prayer that is not of their own faith by a government school teacher, nor do I think it is appropriate for a government employee, who may have no training in theology or worship-leading, to be expected to lead others in a prayer that may not be in line with their own faith.  Worse yet would be some kind of generic prayer that tried to be all things to all faiths; this I think can trivialize the seriousness of worship.  And I think we'd all be very uncomfortable with government school employees leading children in prayer if the predominant religion in a particular community is Muslim, a traditional Native American faith, Jewish, or another minority faith and the community decided to use prayers of that faith.  We are a country of many denominations and beliefs, and we take our faith(s) seriously.  I do not want the government to be teaching children how or when they should pray.

[Jane in NC]

Sorry, I must have missed this. There was a time in history when everyone was allowed to engage in open dialogue and nobody was disenfranchised or lambasted and/or shut down for their unpopular opinions? When was this golden era?  ;)

Maybe when Hearst was a publishing giant?  Golden era equated with yellow journalism at the turn of the 20th century? ;)

 

When was this?  I agree that the world and our country could behave better. I would love to see law abided and military respected.

 

The world you describe is either a fantasy or a reality for a very small section of people.  Women have worked out side the home and have been forced to choose between feeding their children and being with them for many many years. It is only lately that they have received respect and closer to the pay they deserve for making that choice.

 

There is a great appeal in thinking that the world was so much better before people started demanding all those pesky 'rights', but it was only better on a small, small scale.  I pray for peace and for wisdom for our leaders. I believe rights come with responsibility but I will take the world as it is, thank you. 

Not commenting on your post, Denise.  I just wanted to say how lovely it is to see your again!

[Mrs Mungo]

Except that you took my original post, and linked it to something that happened 5 pages into the discussion, and hundreds of posts later.

Again, I can't tell what you mean then, and you aren't explaining.

 

 

Since I don't remember a time when being racist was actually acceptable, I can't say I wish for a time when people could make bigoted comments with no repercussions.

I've lived and visited all over. There are STILL many micro-cultures in this country where people are VERY comfortable making bigoted remarks.

 

Maybe they don't look like this anymore, but they still exist:

 

 

http://sfbayview.com/2011/what-happened-to-black-wall-street-on-june-1-1921/

[StaceyinLA]

moms staying home and raising children has historically been a white middle-class privilege. This is not a tradition for every race or socio-economic level. 

 

Disagree. I know a LOT of low income, even government subsidized families, of multiple races, with moms that stay at home. And 50-60 years ago, many families in poverty had a mom at home. There weren't really a lot of other options. My mom's family (with 7 children) would certainly have been considered poverty level, but her mom was always at home. My mom was always home, and when they had my 5 older siblings, they were certainly living within a very limited income.

 

Violence glorified? How about the KKK ? 

 

This is true. 

 

Pride in their country? - sure as long as you look and sound like everyone around you - I take pride in the diversity in my country. 

 

No. I mean pride by not tolerating people belittling our country, burning our flag, etc. How can we allow men and women to DIE for our country and our freedom, while allowing this to go on.

 

military treated with respect? Like Vietnam vets? I will say that the veterans of my generation probably have a much easier transition back into society than those of the 60s and 70s. Did Vietnam vets get applause in an airport? - probably not.

 

Crimes punished? Yup, they still do that. 

 

Not enough.

 

victims more right then criminals? What about the victims in Jennings LA? Have they found the killer yet? I found this expose interesting (probably linked from someone else here) 

 

What about the first black mayor ever elected in Westlake LA? He never got to serve because he died under suspicious terms 3 days before taking office, ruled a suicide, but still questioned by those who knew him well. 

 

I haven't looked at either of those, but I will.

 

[itsheresomewhere]

When I was in school- we had all this going on. We had gangs, kids who did drugs, kids who disrespected, a kidnapping at my school by other kids, etc. It happened. Now I know I went to school when the dinosaurs roamed the earth according to DS but none of the things you listed are new problems.

[Jane in NC]

The time you pine for (which never really existed) was also when mental illness was a "character flaw" and both domestic violence and child abuse was considered a family affair and no one else's business. It was also a time when lynch mobs were, well mobs of people who actually lynched men for the crime of being black. 

 

"The good old days weren't always good, and tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems." ~ Billy Joel

 

Kathy, your post brings to mind some recent thoughts that I have had.  It seems that many people of my generation are working overtime to badmouth "kids these days" as a former generation did about us.  And we did not turn out too badly! 

 

I don't know about everyone else but I know some fabulous young people (teens and twenty-somethings) who are doing some very cool things.  Sure, they are making different decisions than their parents made but there are some innovative minds out there.  I am so proud of my nieces, nephews, friends' kids, my son, his friends.  They are doing us proud!

[Catwoman]

Well, whether or not Stacey's opinion is proving to be unpopular, this thread is certainly popular.

 

I don't know how long it will last, but it is quite interesting to read.

[Mrs Mungo]

The US Flag is a symbol of freedom. What our soldiers die for, fight for is *freedom*. How can we NOT allow burning of the flag as an ultimate sign of protest? The fact that we do allow it is testament to the fact that freedom of speech is what we really care about. BUT, with that freedom comes responsibility. If you publicly burn a flag in front of your business, then you might face personal and/or financial repercussions for that action.

[AlmiraGulch]

What things? Do you mean the students who are working towards eliminating racism? Those who are advocating for equality in marriage? How about the kids who convinced their school to turn a large portion of the school's grass area into a garden to grow produce to donate to hungry families? Or the students who are working to eliminate the word "retarded" from the vocabulary of their peers? How about the kids who raised money to help out a family struggling to pay for necessary medical treatment? 

 

Or perhaps you are focusing on the negative that is so often hyper-focused on in the media? 

 

 

I'm out of likes, so consider this post "liked". 

[AlmiraGulch]

Understand, you are coming across as saying, "it sure was easier being white and middle class before so many people got enough political/financial power to actually do something about bigots."

 

ed for clarity and a typo

 

Double like.

[Serenade]

Okay, so here is where I don't understand the OP. If you are going to be a racist, then BE a racist, don't be sorry for it and take whatever repercussions may come. Why is it "whining" for people to complain about racism, but it's not "whining" for the racist to face repercussions when caught out? If you aren't a racist, then you don't have to worry about someone recording you saying racist statements, do you?

I think people have to worry about saying whatever is considered "politically incorrect" at the moment. Soon people will be afraid to say anything that goes against the norm. I think we're getting closer and closer to that point, and it will work against most of us eventually.

[StaceyinLA]

The time you pine for (which never really existed) was also when mental illness was a "character flaw" and both domestic violence and child abuse was considered a family affair and no one else's business. It was also a time when lynch mobs were, well mobs of people who actually lynched men for the crime of being black. 

 

"The good old days weren't always good, and tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems." ~ Billy Joel

 

 

This isn't true. I remember praying with our teacher leading, in a public school in 6th grade. That wasn't a ridiculous number of years ago. There were no lynch mobs. I know of only one person who experienced abuse during that time. Most of my friends' parents were married to one another (I think by high school I had met 2 people who had parents that were divorced). The majority of my friends had moms who stayed at home. There were always moms involved in the schools, being room mothers and the like, so I know a lot of the moms stayed home.

 

I also babysat for a LOT of families in middle school and high school. I don't remember ever babysitting for any who had been divorced, and most of them were single income families. One couple I sat for had 2 jobs. I kept the kids from 3-5 which was between when she left for her nursing shift and he got home from work.

 

Maybe I didn't live in the real world, but whatever it was, it seemed a lot better than what it is now.

[StaceyinLA]

Again, I can't tell what you mean then, and you aren't explaining.

 

 

I've lived and visited all over. There are STILL many micro-cultures in this country where people are VERY comfortable making bigoted remarks.

 

Maybe they don't look like this anymore, but they still exist:

 

http://sfbayview.com/2011/what-happened-to-black-wall-street-on-june-1-1921/

 

I really don't know what you want me to explain.