Pros and Cons of a Bachelor's degree in three years

[Trilliums]

Many high school students from families here seem to be going into college with some college credits already accumulated.  Any thoughts on the pros and cons of those students using those credits to complete a bachelor's degree in 3 years rather than 4? 

 

In my son's case, he plans on going on to graduate school so we are thinking one less year in ug could be beneficial.  I'd love to hear thoughts/stories on how this has worked out (or not) from others.

[regentrude]

The obvious benefit is of course financial - and in my opinion that is the only benefit.

 

I would prefer my student to learn more in the same time, not spend less time learning the same amount.

[Mnemosyne]

I completed university in 3 years.

 

It was great! Saved lots of money, and got to be done with the (more boring) general ed requirements earlier.

 

On the downside, it was a little harder friend-wise at times, I was the youngest in my friend group and because of this had to be left out of some activities. I could never go to the bars, or 'over 21' parties, for example.

 

Would I do it again? Absolutely.

[Lori D.]

This will REALLY depend from school to school, what program the student is going into, and how those transfer credits were earned.

 

For some programs (Engineering, Medical, Nursing), NOT having taken all 4 years of coursework at the school can be detrimental, as they often are very interlinked and build on one another. On the other hand,  If the credits earned in advance were all gen. ed. and the student is going into a Humanities or Arts program, it's likely not an issue.

 

Some 4-year colleges limit the amount of credits you can transfer and still be considered a freshman for scholarships -- there are far more scholarships for freshman, and these scholarships are very frequently renewable for 4 years. There are far fewer transfer scholarships, which is what a student who exceeds the credit limit for freshman status is considered, and most are one-time only scholarships. On the other hand, many colleges do NOT limit the amount of transfer credits from dual enrollment or AP. (Schools that accept CLEP all do limit the total amount of CLEP -- check their policy on how CLEP affects freshman status.)

 

The quality of the credits is something else to consider -- are they through CLEP tests? AP tests? From a community college with inferior quality classes? These options may not have helped the student learn how to truly work at a college level -- and now the student will be jumping in at higher level college courses than intro freshman courses, which have more rigorous demands.

 

 

All that said, our experience is a little bit different than your question, as DS did NOT have all the credits from in high school to transfer, but rather, graduated from home school high with just 2 dual enrollment classes, went to the community college, and has worked on credits that will transfer to one of the state universities.

 

It is  looking like all "pros" and no "cons": DS#1 is finishing his AAS at the community college this spring, and will be able to transfer enough credits that it will only take 2 years at the liberal arts college to finish his BA. This has allowed DS#1 to transition slowly and at HIS pace to know what he wants to do -- the liberal arts college rather than the big state university -- AND be ready emotionally to leave home. (He needed to have a solid, real goal to feel "safe" from moving from home to being on his own.)

 

Also, the quality of classes/instructors at this particular CC are quite good -- smaller class sizes and actually taught by real teachers with degrees who know how to TEACH -- instead of mass classes at the local state university taught by teaching assistants from foreign countries trying to earn a few dollars while they work on their graduate degree. And, while this varies from school to school around the country, our CC is less than a third the cost of the local 4-year state university.

 

In addition, while at the CC, DS has earned a VERY high GPA, which is translating into enough scholarship money to cut that cost in half, making it a financial possibility, PLUS he will only need 2 years rather than 4 to get the BA -- together, those factors mean that he IS getting to go this college, whereas we would not have had the scholarships and funds to make 4 years there possible.

 

 

One last thing to consider: in some places it is a "pro" and other places a "con" to get your Master's from the same school you get the Bachelor's. How is that looked at in the job field that your DS wants to go into?

 

 

So, while it's fun to be able to share our personal experience ;), really, this is going to vary GREATLY depending on the student, the choice of program, the 4-year school's policies, how the transfer credits were earned and the quality of those transfer credits… BEST of luck in wading through all of that to decide what's the best option for your DS! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Jane in NC]

To be honest, many of those accumulated credits allow students to graduate in four years--not five.  Or allow students to have a double major, more options, etc.

 

My niece who began UNC-CH as a first year student with something like 24 credits was allowed to register for classes with sophomores as a freshman.  Nice perk. What the credits did for her though ultimately though was enable her to fulfill a number of general college course requirements so she was thus able to have a double major and be in the honors college--but still graduate in four years.

 

Some of the competitive colleges are not giving credit for all of the APs or courses taken via dual enrollment.  They use these for placement purposes--which works out for students who are looking to create an impressive CV, study abroad a semester or a year, etc.

 

Anyone looking to graduate or professional programs will need to investigate what would be better for applicants:  a BS or BA in three or possibly research opportunities, etc. in four.

 

My son's LAC has a program developed around the four year degree.  All juniors do a one semester independent study; all seniors do a two semester independent study. This is the heart and soul of what makes his college unique.  I don't think he would trade it for an expedited degree.

 

Note though that many Europeans do their undergraduate work in three years. They focus on their majors and do not have the required general coursework that American students cover.

[8filltheheart]

I don't know that there would be any drawbacks to graduating early and starting grad early with the possible exception of intended major and possibly making connections with profs for getting involved in research opportunities, etc that can make all the difference in grad school LOR and acceptances, etc.   Depending on the undergrad dept, some are not really open to first yr students (whether still classified as freshman or not) getting involved in research.

 

Another option to graduating early is to double major.

[G5052]

If you can do it in three, that's great.  I know several who did it because other siblings were coming up, and it was possible for them to do it.

 

In my case though, advanced standing didn't help because I went to college with no idea what I wanted to major in.  It was nice to start as a sophomore, but I was still dabbling.  Near the end of my third semester of college when I should have been a junior, I finally knew, but I had to change schools and having all of those credits didn't help with that at all.  The new school took the core requirements that every freshman takes and threw the rest into electives.  It still took me five years total, two at the first school, and three at the second.  

 

I ultimately graduated with two degrees (not a double major) because of all of the credits I had and what I chose to major in (related areas, not tough to do).  My first employer later told me that the double degrees were a significant factor in hiring me.  Later on I found that having double degrees significantly increased my opportunities for government employment because I qualified for multiple job series. 

 

My "hope" (note quotes) is that the advanced standing classes will first help mine with admissions and merit aid, but getting a few classes out of the way will be nice of course.  Given that mine don't know what they want to study yet, that may or may not help with the total number of years. I know it won't hurt though!

[Gwen in VA]

My kids stories about having scads of dual-enrollment and AP credits --

 

1) Dd1 graduated in 4 years with a double degree AND a minor. She could not have done that without all of the credits.

2) Ds1 graduated in 4 years with a triple degree. He could not have done that without all of the credits.

3) D2 went to a college that accepts no transfer credits from anywhere, period. All of his dual credits made him a more educated human and a more desirable college applicant.

4) Dd2 is most likely going to a college that will only allow her to transfer 6 classes, period. She will have to decide which classes she wants transfer credit for. The other credits will help her to place out of certain 100-level classes but that's it. Since she is interested in a double-degree, even with all of her credits she may have trouble graduating in four years.

 

The effect of lots of dual-enrollment credits depends 100% on the college your student eventually attends.

 

[Jane in NC]

I don't know that there would be any drawbacks to graduating early and starting grad early with the possible exception of intended major and possibly making connections with profs for getting involved in research opportunities, etc that can make all the difference in grad school LOR and acceptances, etc.   Depending on the undergrad dept, some are not really open to first yr students (whether still classified as freshman or not) getting involved in research.

 

Another option to graduating early is to double major.

When I was in grad school, there were a couple of undergrads who were enrolled in first year grad courses.  One of them went on to Princeton for grad school as an NSF fellow.  I wonder if he would have been given the fellowship if he had expedited his undergrad years.  I suspect part of what made him attractive to prospective grad programs and the NSF was the stuff he did in his 4th year of college.  But I may be wrong.

[Butler]

I don't think there are really any cons in graduating in three years, it really depends on the coursework taken and research that's been completed. If a student can fit that into three years and still look desirable to grad schools then there shouldn't be a problem. As far as STEM goes, graduate level courses taken as an undergrad are expected for a lot of the top programs. If the student can't finish the undergrad coursework (and obligatory summer REU), plus at least a couple of grad level courses in their major in three years, then I think it would really behoove them to stay the fourth year to do that.

[Hoggirl]

Well, my ds is very young for his grade as he was grade skipped when he entered his public charter school. So, he will graduate at 16 (he was young for his original grade with a summer birthday). He will thus turn 17 this summer after graduation. For him, completing a degree in three years would mean that he would graduate at 19 and then turn 20 the summer thereafter. Just kinda young. If he winds up at a college that will take a lot of credits, he is looking at doing a double degree. Some of his top schools (if he gets in) will take little of those credits in the first place. But, I don't know that I would want him to finish in three years, even if he were able to.

[Gwen in VA]

If a student doesn't want to graduate early he doesn't have to. He can keep one required class for 2nd semester senior year -- like I did! 

 

There are a lot of advantages to being on campus for the full four years --

 

1) Friends. My brother received sophomore standing and graduated after three years. He still says that leaving his group of friends from freshman year while they were still looking forward to another year of college and he was heading off into the wild blue yonder was one of the hardest things he has ever done.

 

2) Research and internships. Plenty of research and internship opportunities are not available until after sophomore or even after junior year. Someone who graduates early limits those options -- which may be a huge influence in acceptance to grad school.

 

3) References. A student who crams all kinds of classes together in a few years may not develop the long-term relationships necessary for truly stellar recommendations from professors.

 

I know a student can graduate early and do well, but there is a price to be paid.

[Trilliums]

Such an interesting assortment of stories.  Thank you all for sharing.

 

When we visited Grinnell my son asked about the availability of upper level course work/electives/frequency of class offerings to get an idea of what kind of material he could expect over four years.   They discussed options, including independent research projects, etc. but the professor also mentioned the possibility of DS graduating in 3 years. 

 

Then last week when we visited our state university, DS asked about taking graduate level courses as an ug since his degree requirements would be completed early.  The prof there suggested graduating in three years instead.  He also did not encourage obtaining a MS, but going straight from a BS to Ph.D. program.

 

So at both schools, the profs broached the subject of graduating in three years w/o any prompting on our part.  As a result, I began to wonder if many students entering college with credits end up graduating in three years.  Of course, the answer seems to be, as it is for many other questions, "it depends".

[Barbara H]

To be honest, many of those accumulated credits allow students to graduate in four years--not five.  Or allow students to have a double major, more options, etc.

 

Particularly at a lot of state universities that have a lot of general education requirements it can be nearly impossible to get out in 4 years for students who aren't coming in with AP credits. Five or six years to graduation is much more the norm and that's the case even though MOST students are coming in with AP credits. It depends a lot on the major of course too. Some majors, like engineering and education, simply have a lot of requirements and it is a haul to get through all of them. One trend a lot of parents haven't heard of are "pre-major" requirements. These are separate from general education or major requirements. Some majors may require two semesters of calculus for example, but they don't count toward requirements for completing the major. So the credits that were supposed to get the student "ahead" may just be getting them on a more level playing field.

[Brenda in MA]

I don't know that there would be any drawbacks to graduating early and starting grad early with the possible exception of intended major and possibly making connections with profs for getting involved in research opportunities, etc that can make all the difference in grad school LOR and acceptances, etc.   Depending on the undergrad dept, some are not really open to first yr students (whether still classified as freshman or not) getting involved in research.
 
Another option to graduating early is to double major.

I think it depends upon the student's intended major. My son (engineering) went to college with 1 semester of credits that transfered from DE classes. He was able to graduate in 4 years, but he took 1 semester off from school and worked a coop job. This job was fantastic on many fronts -- he got real working experience in his field, which helped him land a permanent job, and he made quite a bit of money that helped him reduce the amount of loans he took out. We also saved 1 semester of tuition. Taking the semester coop was definitely a much better option for him than graduating early would have been. He and his friends found during the job interview process that having some kind of career-related work experience was critical to getting employers to notice you and ask you to interview.

If possible, I would definitely advise your child to consider taking a semester or a year off in the middle of his/her program so that they can either work or possibly do full-time research. They could see if the school has research positions available for pay for a semester, or maybe there would be a coop job in a company that does research. I would think that devoting that much time to research would help with grad school admissions. I also like the idea of using the "extra" time for a double major.

Best wishes,
Brenda

[shawthorne44]

...

Note though that many Europeans do their undergraduate work in three years. They focus on their majors and do not have the required general coursework that American students cover.

 

That is an interesting point.  A 3-year college degree with the general ed. requirements taken care of during high school being similar to a European college degree.  

 

The only downside I can see is that sometimes my upper level classes in my major were very intense and it was nice to have the easier general ed classes to fill things out.  Although, I guess not having to take the gen. ed. at all would have been even better.  

[wonderchica]

I entered undergrad with 32 dual enrollment credits, which meant I could easily finish in 3 years. Most of my gen ed requirements were done. One consideration though- I struggled my entire last year with out of nowhere (as it usually is!) depression. I managed to hang in there ok academically, but had I not, I would've needed to take the fourth year. Life happens sometimes, so I think it's always good to be flexible and realize that if your child ends up needing to stay longer, that's okay too. It certainly helped financially, but sometimes I think back wistfully and wish I had gone 4 years. The depression stole the happy, fun last year I wish I had.

[Bootsie]

I completed my undergraduate degree in three years.  AP courses and dual credit were unheard of at the time (at least where I grew up).  I did place out of the first English course because of my ACT score and passed the CLEP test for the second English course.  I took six hours in summer school one summer.  I was able to complete all of my coursework in three years by taking 21 hours most semesters and carefully choosing my courses to fit into my degree plan.  I then directly entered a PhD program.

 

Finishing in 3 years worked well for me because I knew what I wanted to major in and knew that I wanted to go to grad school.  However, it is not necessarily something I would recommend for my own children, especially if they want to explore some other areas of study, have some opportunities to travel, or do an internship.  Personally, I have found many of the college students who are in my classes who began college with a large number of credits from dual credit courses unprepared for college level work.  I think many of them would have been better of doing high school work in high school getting a good foundation for college work.

 

Academically, I was prepared for graduate school; but I wasn't prepared for the politics and other issues that come along with pursuing a PhD.  I had a full academic scholarship, so completing my degree in three years was not necessarily a financial decision.  In fact, I had to pay for the six hours in summer school, because summer school was not covered by the scholarship.  I did not find the "friends" issue a big deal.  I graduated with many of my friends because I had been in classes with them.  

[creekland]

 

Finishing in 3 years worked well for me because I knew what I wanted to major in and knew that I wanted to go to grad school.  However, it is not necessarily something I would recommend for my own children, especially if they want to explore some other areas of study, have some opportunities to travel, or do an internship.   

 

This thread is interesting even though two of my guys will do four years.  Middle son is actually hoping for five rather than four - not because he can't graduate in four, but because he wants to add in study abroad and a totally different major. (Brain and Cognitive studies w/pre-med is his real major.  He wants to add in Latin American or Spanish studies with a study abroad in Argentina or another Spanish speaking country.)  URoc offers free tuition for the 5th year for students wanting to do this (IF they get their program of study approved).  I'm hoping he gets it approved as it's not something we can afford if he doesn't.

 

My family leans far more along the lines of wanting to put more into four years (or five) than wanting to get in and out quickly.  I think it's just a different mindset of loving the learning rather than merely wanting the degree.  I'd have hated being told I needed to graduate in 3 years even though I went into college with credits.  Financially though, I can see where it's an issue for many for the same reason five years can't be an option for middle son if he doesn't get the free tuition.
 

[Jane in NC]

This thread is interesting even though two of my guys will do four years.  Middle son is actually hoping for five rather than four - not because he can't graduate in four, but because he wants to add in study abroad and a totally different major. (Brain and Cognitive studies w/pre-med is his real major.  He wants to add in Latin American or Spanish studies with a study abroad in Argentina or another Spanish speaking country.)  URoc offers free tuition for the 5th year for students wanting to do this (IF they get their program of study approved).  I'm hoping he gets it approved as it's not something we can afford if he doesn't.

 

My family leans far more along the lines of wanting to put more into four years (or five) than wanting to get in and out quickly.  I think it's just a different mindset of loving the learning rather than merely wanting the degree.  I'd have hated being told I needed to graduate in 3 years even though I went into college with credits.  Financially though, I can see where it's an issue for many for the same reason five years can't be an option for middle son if he doesn't get the free tuition.
 

 

Creekland, I too hope that Middle Guy is approved for that fifth year of study.  A year in a Spanish speaking country would be a wonderful background experience for anyone going the pre-med route.

 

We never really considered an expedited path for our son, but we have had some interesting retrospective conversations along the way. Back in his high school days, he began looking at British unis at some point.  I discouraged him because he would not have the Liberal Arts experience that I value so much.  Also, given how American students tend to swap majors, I also did not want him to feel boxed in a corner.  But since he was fifteen, he has known what he was going to do:  archaeology.  He has never wavered.  So I suppose he could have done a three year degree in Britain and had been very happy. 

 

I too can see why some families might encourage their kids to graduate in three, particularly if there is a financial burden for the family or if their kid is particularly driven to have the degree in order to be working in the real world as soon as possible. 

[Elisabet1]

All the home schoolers I know here do it in 3 yrs or less. I do know one that is taking longer, but in her case, it is because she is doing some teaching certificate thing that makes it a 5 yr program. So she will be half time that last year, doing just student teaching. And then will be done in 4. It might be the MAT program, but I am unsure.

[FaithManor]

To my knowledge, music performance majors cannot be accomplished in 3 years.

 

First off there is the freshman jury that MUST be passed and one cannot go into 200 level coursework without passing the jury. You aren't allowed to sit jury until the end of your "freshman year" no matter how many community college classes you transfer into the school of music.

 

Second, there are sophomore, junior, and senior recitals that must be performed on schedule. Given the level of literature required with each recital getting more and more intense, two recitals in one year is nearly impossible and certainly would not be allowed. You cannot "rehash" old material. The senior recital for pianists is nearly always a concerto and that is rehearsed with the school orchestra for many weeks. Everything goes through the music faculty board for approval, and the approval process is not speedy.

 

Third, you are required a minimum of 8 semester of performance credits - ie. other performance groups - usually one credit per semester, but if two credits are awarded it won't matter because you must physically put in 8 semesters of performance TIME, not credit. Secondary instruments require another four semesters of performance credit.

 

Fourth, you must have 8 semesters of lessons on your instrument or voice. You can't expedite it. You have to put in the time. I know of NO music school of any decent reputation that will accept performance credits from a community college unless that CC is accredited to offer at least full music minors if not majors. Sometimes there is a reciprocity agreement between two schools, but these are things that have to be determined on a case by case basis, and they aren't common.

 

Both semesters of freshman music theory must be accomplished before the first semester of music history. The two semesters of sophomore music theory must be completed before the second semester of music history. This alone then puts a student into the third year without getting to 400 level material.

 

There are a few music schools that allow one to take instrument lessons or voice in the summer semester, but it still doesn't speed up the process getting to the senior recital because nearly always, all 300 level coursework in the department must be completed, plus juries, plus recommendations from professors before one can begin prepping for the senior recital. Recitals are adjudicated and while some schools will allow a score of 80% for passing, my alma mater required 90%. 90% to pass juries and remain a music major; 90% for recitals or they had to be redone in the next semester which put the student behind schedule.

 

I transferred in and CLEP tested 24 credits so I was nearly a sophomore when I started. I just BARELY made it out in four years. It was all gen-ed stuff because there wasn't a single music thing they would  accept from the CC or the regional university.

 

Other majors can probably be done in three. For certain programs, it probably doesn't hurt. For others, I can see a lot of negatives for rushing through and certainly if internships, research, and study abroad are limited to juniors and seniors thus limiting participation/experience to one year instead of two or completely missing out all together.

 

That said, Dh and I really enjoyed college and gained a lot of education and experience that wasn't all just cut and dry academics and some of that definitely came in that fourth year. So, I'm inclined to want my boys to do it in four instead of three.

 

One of the schools that ds is looking at has an honors program that requires two summer semesters and a 5th year. But, scholarships and financial aid cover it and if one meets the requirements to enter the program and successfully completes it, the graduate has a BS and MS and the MS coursework is billed out at the tuition rate of the undergraduate work which really saves money for student needing grad school.

[EmilyGF]

One of my good friends did a 3-year mechEng degree at UC Berkeley before starting a PhD at U Michigan.

 

He says it is one of the stupidest things he ever did. He didn't explore his field, he hated grad school, and he now works in a completely different field. 

 

Monetarily, though, there are benefits.

 

Emily

[happypamama]

I did it, although I graduated nearly 16 years ago. What I did was to take several basic classes at a local branch of a big university -- calculus, English comp, a couple of other math and English classes, US history, and a couple of political science classes -- during high school. It was hard work, because I was taking several regular high school classes and going to classes a couple of nights a week and doing a gazilion activities. But it paid off, because I applied to another big university in a different state and was accepted to their main campus, plus their honors program. Saved me an entire year of out-of-state tuition and meant that I was able to graduate with DH so we could get married, rather than having to wait another year while I finished college. ;)

All of my credits transferred, some as electives, some as specific courses (my US history classes helped me get my history minor, IIRC). I had a liberal arts major, so sequencing and such weren't so crucial; I just had a lot of my gen eds filled already. I got sophomore status immediately, which was helpful for some things; honors students got priority scheduling anyway, but when I went to choose a dorm for my second year, I got a step up. Also, since I had a lot of credits (38, I think), it meant that I had a slightly lighter schedule -- I think I only had 17 credits once, never a full 18 (maybe once).

The downsides: Since several of my electives were already filled with English and math courses that I'd needed for high school (they were through a special program, so I didn't have a choice about them), I didn't get to take as many random "just for fun" courses as I might have otherwise. (Otoh, the flexible schedule gave me a chance to do some independent study credits while working in a campus daycare/preschool.) I also had to get serious about my senior honors thesis a little sooner, but that wasn't a huge problem.

The biggest downside, I think, was the networking, or lack thereof. All students at that university took one specific English course, with the honors students getting their own special sections of it. I got credit for that course and never took it. Even three years later, people were still hanging out with people from their section of that English class. Between that, not being an engineering major (and therefore not in the math classes), being part of a ridiculously small major (out of 40,000 undergrads, we graduated TWO from my major my year -- but I got awesome personalized attention from our adviser), being from out-of-state (and therefore not having half of my high school on campus with me), and arriving at school already having a serious boyfriend (who was an upperclassman), I was definitely not a typical freshman. I did find it a little hard to fit in, but I think more of that had to do with hanging out with the boyfriend and his friends than not taking the English class, but I do wish I had known that the English class would have been helpful in getting to know people.

[kiana]

I would be more inclined to get a richer undergraduate experience for the student who's looking at graduate school (especially PhD), unless their undergraduate simply isn't able to offer them enough advanced courses -- and in that case they should look at a better undergraduate school. It would also somewhat depend on the field -- mine is mathematics, and I don't think I'd graduate early unless the student is ready to enter a rock-star graduate school after 3 years. This would probably involve either coming in as a junior or taking summer courses, but then STEM curricula are a little more sequential than some others.

 

It also depends on how fixated the student is on a particular major and whether they want to include coursework in other, related fields.

[Crimson Wife]

I graduated in 3 1/3 years because my parents only funded 3 years of college each for my siblings and I. I had enough saved from summer and part-time work to pay for my final term and graduated debt-free. I would've preferred to do it in 3 flat but I was one required course short of my major and it was only offered in the fall term.

I was ready to be done with college. DH and I were engaged and he was already off in the Army, having graduated the previous spring. We were so miserable being separated that we moved up our wedding 18 months. I would not have wanted to stay another 6 months by myself.

My brothers chose to stay the full 4 years and took out a small amount of college loans in order to do so. One did an audio engineering program that required the full 4 years. The other spent his junior year abroad, something I chose not to do.

[flyingiguana]

I'd argue for doing a 2nd major or taking a number of useful courses even if they don't do a full major.

Otoh -- a kid who has been taking a lot of college courses in high school may want to get the heck away from college after 2 years.

I've seen kids go this route who did one year of actual college and then start looking for a major that would get them out as quick as possible, whether it was going to be useful to them or not.

Also, be forewarned that a lot of credits from before may or may not do much good in getting out quicker. It takes a fair amount of planning (and talking to the end college) to get all those credits to count. Also, I'm not sure I'd try to get the gen ed requirements done. They usually can be tucked in anywhere, any time. It's the major courses that often have to be taken in a sequence -- and that sequence may take, you guessed it, just about 4 years. Doing the intro majors courses before college may be more helpful than the gen eds. The gen eds my daughter did early ended up not counting for anything -- it was the majors courses that did her some good.

One bit of advice: It probably ain't gonna work out like you plan. Just enjoy the ride and get the most possible out of whatever gets done.

[creekland]

I found out yesterday that my middle son is planning on two majors (Brain & Cognitive, Biology) and three minors (American Sign Language, Psych, Chemistry) should he merely take the normal four years at URoc.

 

If he gets his wish to spend five with their Take 5 program, then he's decided he wants to add Art History coupled with traveling abroad (rather than Spanish/Latin American studies he thought about before).

 

All I could think of when he was showing us his plan was to "Go for it!" and that he might end up a model for "The Well Educated College Student."  He loves learning and will freely admit there are many classes he'd still love to take, but can't fit in.

 

His "Plan A" is still med school after all that, and with his grades, ECs, and personality (great references), it's difficult for me to believe he wouldn't be accepted somewhere.

 

Even if he doesn't get his Take 5 approved, he'll still have taken great advantage of his time and our finances IMO.

[bettyandbob]

IB, AP, and duel enrollment can help a student finish college quicker, but it think the real value is the student getting experience with college level work so they don't get surprised by a huge difference in expectations.

If the goal is to finish quickly, a student probably needs IB, AP, or dual enrollment credits plus he needs to be very organized in his course planning and get lucky that the college doesn't decide to start offering a course he needs every other semester. I'd opt for a more enriched experience if financially possible, looking for double major, study abroad, internship, undergrad research, chances to spend more time with professors who will write recommendations.

[Elisabet1]

I think this will be different by the child. If your child can graduate in 3 years, and wants to, or money says it must happen, then it is fine. I know someone who has 2 years of college calculus going in to college and lots of science, and wants to go to med school. It would be a waste for him to spend 4 years hanging out getting his BS. He should move on to med school. Other schools have fast track to med school programs, but not the one he is in. My neighbor, their daughter did the fast track and ended up spending only 1 or two years in college and is in med school now. I am not sure about 1 or two years, as I know she was in high school when my oldest was. I just did not recall if she was same grade or a grade older. But I just talked to her mom the other day and found that she is in med school now. (it was the fast track at UTD and she brought in AP credits). This is a girl who always knew she wanted to be a doctor. 

 

Some people are just ready to move on. I would rather see a child spend a year working between college and grad school than spend a year hanging out in college, when there is nothing more to really do.

[regentrude]

 Also, I'm not sure I'd try to get the gen ed requirements done. They usually can be tucked in anywhere, any time. It's the major courses that often have to be taken in a sequence -- and that sequence may take, you guessed it, just about 4 years.

 

I second this advice, particularly for a student going into science and engineering. This comes up occasionally during our advising sessions. Students who transfer in too many credits (as a public university, we are very generous accepting outside credits) may find themselves in a holding pattern, since the major courses must be taken in sequence. Typically not every course is offered every semester, and the sequence is designed to work for an incoming freshman with no prior credits. An off-sequence student may find herself with a semester where she really can't take many major courses because of prerequisites, but the course to satisfy the prereq is offered during the other semester.

Also, we do not recommend filling a full time schedule completely with math and science classes, because of the resulting work load; interspersing the gen ed requirements is better for the students.

 

[regentrude]

 I know someone who has 2 years of college calculus going in to college and lots of science, and wants to go to med school. It would be a waste for him to spend 4 years hanging out getting his BS. He should move on to med school...

 

Some people are just ready to move on. I would rather see a child spend a year working between college and grad school than spend a year hanging out in college, when there is nothing more to really do.

 

Phrases like "when there is nothing more to really do" and "waste of time" reduce college to the mere class work. But that's not all there is to college. In order to be competetive for medical school, most of my pre med students are involved in research either with profs at the university or with doctors at their practice or hospital.

Other pre med students use their four years of college to develop an outstanding profile. One of our physics majors is an extremely talented young man who could easily have shortened his time at college; instead, he has used his time to do a double major in chemistry, and minors in French and philosophy - he surely will stand out among applicants, especially among the thousands of life science majors.

I do not think there are simple answers, but especially for a student aiming at a very selective graduate program, the extra time at college may be well worth it.

[happypamama]

I second this advice, particularly for a student going into science and engineering. This comes up occasionally during our advising sessions. Students who transfer in too many credits (as a public university, we are very generous accepting outside credits) may find themselves in a holding pattern, since the major courses must be taken in sequence. Typically not every course is offered every semester, and the sequence is designed to work for an incoming freshman with no prior credits. An off-sequence student may find herself with a semester where she really can't take many major courses because of prerequisites, but the course to satisfy the prereq is offered during the other semester.
Also, we do not recommend filling a full time schedule completely with math and science classes, because of the resulting work load; interspersing the gen ed requirements is better for the students.

I agree with this. I found it easy to do a liberal arts degree in three years, because I had a lot of flexibility with what I took and when (and I did end up skipping a couple of classes that I had wanted to take but couldn't schedule, substituting others in their places -- works for a history major, not so much for a math or science one). It would have been a LOT of work to do math or science degree that way; as it was, one semester I ended up with two science classes, a gym class, and a speech class, all required and all subjects I don't really like, plus independent work on my senior thesis and a TA position (for credit), so it was a *very* busy semester.

My brother who was an engineering major entered college with a similar number of credits to mine, but because of sequencing and prereqs, he still took four years to finish (although his credits might have prevented him from needing five years). I think there are pros and cons to finishing early; it just depends on the student and the reason for accelerating.

[Trilliums]

The comments have provided interesting 'food for thought' not only on the issue of 3 year degrees, but also considerations for college fit, degree progression and general educational goals.   As I said, the question of a BS in 3 years was not initiated by my son, but by the professors he met.  He will finish high school with 6 college classes (including completing 2nd year suggested courses for 2 majors) and 6 APs.  While he does have a broad range of interests, he also has a strong drive to delve deeper into his specific areas of interests which is primarily why the 3 year degree piqued my interest.   At our state flagship DS spoke to the ug adviser for his intended major and it was right after reviewing the best class progressing at the U for DS during his senior year in high school that the prof mentioned a 3 year degree, leading me to believe it was logistically possible.  In any case, DS hasn't mentioned the 3 year degree outside of the initial meetings, although he is pretty quite on the entire subject of college.  He is busy but I also think going off to college still is removed for him, with only vague notions swirling through his mind.  This discussion has given me plenty to consider though in my role as his guidance counselor.  Thanks again everyone for sharing your stories and thoughts.

 

 

[creekland]

Phrases like "when there is nothing more to really do" and "waste of time" reduce college to the mere class work. But that's not all there is to college. In order to be competetive for medical school, most of my pre med students are involved in research either with profs at the university or with doctors at their practice or hospital.

Other pre med students use their four years of college to develop an outstanding profile. One of our physics majors is an extremely talented young man who could easily have shortened his time at college; instead, he has used his time to do a double major in chemistry, and minors in French and philosophy - he surely will stand out among applicants, especially among the thousands of life science majors.

I do not think there are simple answers, but especially for a student aiming at a very selective graduate program, the extra time at college may be well worth it.

 

:iagree:  My guy is incredibly busy with so much other stuff besides classes... fun stuff, research stuff, work stuff... and there are so many classes he'd like to take "for fun" that he's auditing some of them to be able to sit in on them, but without the extra papers and tests.  For a student who loves learning, a quick path to a job is definitely not the best path if it can be avoided.  There are enough years to work later on IMO.

 

If a school doesn't offer enough to keep one happily "busy," they may have picked a school too small or too low level for them.

 

Of course, for the student who doesn't like college, a three year path can be right.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I would say that the biggest pro is strictly financial.

 

As for cons-you would be missing out on life and a chance to mature in general.  Not every kid is ready for life on their own in the real world at 19 or 20 or even 21.  Opportunities like research, work experiences, internships, junior year abroad, summer programs, some honors programs, academic conferences, some double majors/minors, 5 year combined BA/MA programs, etc. are based on a typical four year path. 

 

If I had a kid with enough credits in their pocket to graduate early I would sit down with them and look at-how do those credits apply.  Are they elective or gen ed credit?  Can they be used at will if the student wants or needs to drop a course?  At what point do they need to declare their intention to use the credits towards early graduation?  If it were possible to delay using some or all of them I think I would until the kid had a semester or two under his/her belt.

 

One other point to consider-where does this student want to be after receiving a BA?  Will they apply to MA/PhD programs, law school, med school-if so will they have had enough time to do all the extras that make them competitive candidates?  If they plan on joining the workforce will they have all they need on their resume and will the folks in their chosen field deem them sufficiently old/mature?  I'm not saying that any given student won't meet these qualifications after 3 years but I would advise that you ask yourself these questions and be sure the answer is yes before proceeding.

[Trilliums]

 

If a school doesn't offer enough to keep one happily "busy," they may have picked a school too small or too low level for them.

 

 

This is a real concern and I am not sure how to address it honestly, particularly for this son.  This is exactly how the suggestion for getting an ug degree in 3 years came up while DS was tlkaing to the profs. Our state flagship has a wide variety course offerings w/ a graduate program in his area of interest, but to complicate the whole matter, the staff and profs act as though DS wouldn't choose to attend there. The general academic adviser (not major specific but we need to coordinate DE classes with this person) told DS that the motivated DE students like him rarely matriculate at our local U. They said the U is better suited to meet the needs of a less academically geared student (I was there and nearly fell out of my chair..this is a large, state research U). Highly selective schools seem out of reach to him despite his strong academics primarily due to dyslexic and aspie qualities.  Even though he is likely NMF, his standardized tests scores aren't in the top 25ht percentile for the highly selective schools (though he has only taken the SAT one time and his scores were decent, but the long test time takes a huge toll on him).   He also has ECs that are unlikely to be particularly impressive to an adcom.    Not to go on with the doom and gloom, but man, this college stuff is tough and very worry inducing!!! 

 

ETA:  I know there are plenty of schools in between the extremes of highly selective and auto admit local U.  Learning about htem them and figuring out "fit" and finances is where we are now.

[Erin]

My brother got his undergrad in 2 1/2 years, which worked well for him so he could follow his (younger) girlfriend down to the state U.  ...She for her Bachelors, he for his Masters.  

(Though they moved to Boston after a couple years, where he finished his Masters at MIT since employees and their families got school for free.  And she finished hers at Emerson, also free for MIT employees!)

 

 

Seems to have worked out OK for him... 

[Barbara H]

Our state flagship has a wide variety course offerings w/ a graduate program in his area of interest, but to complicate the whole matter, the staff and profs act as though DS wouldn't choose to attend there. The general academic adviser (not major specific but we need to coordinate DE classes with this person) told DS that the motivated DE students like him rarely matriculate at our local U.

 

While it is true that most may go on to more prestigious schools, that doesn't mean they all do or that it is the right path for him. At our state u we've seen some pretty significant shifts since the economic downturn too. Many students that may have looked out of state in the past are realizing in state publics are a much better financial deal and they will get them where they need to be for grad school.

 

One key question for your son may be what sort of access will they allow to graduate courses as an undergrad. In many fields it is common for top undergrads go into graduate courses pretty quickly. I know math and computer science majors at state flagships who have been in graduate courses starting freshman or sophomore year. That's a good way to get around the issue weaker undergrads in the major and can help the student be competitive for stronger graduate programs too.

[Trilliums]

While it is true that most may go on to more prestigious schools, that doesn't mean they all do or that it is the right path for him. At our state u we've seen some pretty significant shifts since the economic downturn too. Many students that may have looked out of state in the past are realizing in state publics are a much better financial deal and they will get them where they need to be for grad school.

 

One key question for your son may be what sort of access will they allow to graduate courses as an undergrad. In many fields it is common for top undergrads go into graduate courses pretty quickly. I know math and computer science majors at state flagships who have been in graduate courses starting freshman or sophomore year. That's a good way to get around the issue weaker undergrads in the major and can help the student be competitive for stronger graduate programs too.

 

I agree.  I think our local U could be a great experience for DS for many reasons and it frustrates me that he does not receive more positive messages about the strengths of their programs.  It is heavily geared toward medical research but still has much to offer.  He thoroughly enjoys the classes he is taking there this year and is looking forward to continuing next year.

 

Son asked about taking grad lvl classes and the discussion came back to getting a BS in three years.   Even though the same suggestion arose at the LAC, I had not expected to hear this at a U with more class offering.  It threw us all for a loop and we had few follow up questions though.  Undergrad research was mentioned as well.

 

ETA:  Son has already said he could imagine himself attending local U and being perfectly happy.  I feel compelled to add this b/c I don't want to give the impression that he is being difficult about college choice.  :)   I do still wish there were more positive messages from the community at large.  It is one of those cases where people say, "Oh but you are so smart, surely there are better options!"

He actually seems quite adaptable and resilient about doing the best wherever he lands.

[8filltheheart]

I agree. I think our local U could be a great experience for DS for many reasons and it frustrates me that he does not receive more positive messages about the strengths of their programs. It is heavily geared toward medical research but still has much to offer. He thoroughly enjoys the classes he is taking there this year and is looking forward to continuing next year.

Son asked about taking grad lvl classes and the discussion came back to getting a BS in three years. Even though the same suggestion arose at the LAC, I had not expected to hear this at a U with more class offering. It threw us all for a loop and we had few follow up questions though. Undergrad research was mentioned as well

Other post:
he general academic adviser (not major specific but we need to coordinate DE classes with this person) told DS that the motivated DE students like him rarely matriculate at our local U. They said the U is better suited to meet the needs of a less academically geared student (I was there and nearly fell out of my chair..this is a large, state research U).
.

We were also redirected away from grad classes at the undergrad level. Hmmm. I need to ask ds which schools are which now bc they are all starting to blend together in my mind. I know that double majoring, research, and independent courses were also recommended by a few schools.

Ds has opted for a double major and 2 minors or possibly a triple and a minor. The honors research program he has been accepted into is a minor by itself and he only needs 1more math class for a math minor.

Fwiw, I would really recommend going and talking to the dean of the dept. The deans have been invaluable in guiding ds and most of them have been incredibly forthright. He had one dean flat out say he couldn't match the research opportunities that another school was offering. He had another willing to discuss the pros and cons of various undergrad programs. The dean of the local school was willing to start a departmental honors program just for ds and to create a path of independent credits just for him. You never know what you might find out! I would also ask one of his professors he currently has in his intended major to possibly meet with him with the dean.i

[Teachin'Mine]

Trilliums your son may want to ask if there's an option to pursue his graduate level degree while enrolled as an undergraduate.  Some universities do allow this, while others may charge a bit more fo the graduate level courses.  That might be the best of both worlds as he'd have the full four years and come out of it with a masters or close to a masters degree.   Your son has a good attitude!

[Barbara H]

ETA:  Son has already said he could imagine himself attending local U and being perfectly happy.  I feel compelled to add this b/c I don't want to give the impression that he is being difficult about college choice.  :)   I do still wish there were more positive messages from the community at large.  It is one of those cases where people say, "Oh but you are so smart, surely there are better options!"

He actually seems quite adaptable and resilient about doing the best wherever he lands.

 

Good for your son for being adaptable. There are so many ways students can do well. Probably once the decision is made people will be more supportive. If he's not already met with the director of undergrad studies in his major department that would be a great idea.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

One possible con that occurred to me is having on less year to work with professors of upper level courses who might bring the student into research opportunities or give letter of reccomendation.

This would depend a lot on how the three years were composed. Overloading and summer school vs credit for AP or CLEP vs time at a community college. And it would vary a lot by student, college and major.