Do we want a President who sees nothing wrong with leaving live babies out to die?

[Kathleen in VA]

Just had this link sent to me by a friend. Frightening, sickening, heartbreaking. Is this the change we are looking for?

 

 

 

This coming election is perhaps the most pivotal election our country will ever know. Please consider your vote very, very carefully.

[Shelly in IL]

I don't understand how anyone could think it was right.

[Perry]

The video won't download. I don't know what this is about. Can you elaborate, so I can find some information elsewhere?

[Sharon in SC]

It is through thick tears and a heavy heart that I respond with, "No, I do. *not*."

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Just had this link sent to me by a friend. Frightening, sickening, heartbreaking. Is this the change we are looking for?

 

 

 

This coming election is perhaps the most pivotal election our country will ever know. Please consider your vote very, very carefully.

 

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/429328.aspx

[Kathleen in VA]

The video won't download. I don't know what this is about. Can you elaborate, so I can find some information elsewhere?

 

I clicked on the link and it worked for me so not sure what's up with that. The video is an interview with a registered nurse regarding the practice at her Illinois hospital of leaving "induced birth abortion" live babies out to die. These are babies born alive, issued birth certificates, left to die alone apart from human care, and then issued death certificates. This nurse testified to Congress about this. Every other Democrat in the Senate (including Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy) voted against allowing this practice - all but Barack Obama. Some have argued that he did not fully understand the implications of his vote, but since he voted to support this kind of infanticide three times, that argument is difficult to believe. Bottom line - Obama supports infanticide, not just the choice to abort a "non-viable" fetus, but actual infanticide.

[Tracy in Ky]

Wicked. It's just wicked. Can you imagine the blood on his hands when he stands before God? I shudder to think of it.

[StaceyinLA]

this is just sickening. That this goes on in the world at ALL disgusts me beyond belief, and that a MOTHER could allow that to happen to her OWN FLESH and BLOOD make me even sicker. And don't even get me started about the dr's and nurses - sick, just sick...

[Crissy]

Please consider your vote very, very carefully.

 

I always wonder, Kathleen, when someone says this if they are actually trying to find a gentle way to say, "See this issue as I do and vote like me."

 

:confused:

[Kathleen in VA]

I always wonder, Kathleen, when someone says this if they are actually trying to find a gentle way to say, "See this issue as I do and vote like me."

 

:confused:

 

Well, in my case, I certainly hope folks do see things my way - that's true on most things though:D. In this particular case, I understand that many people like Obama for his stand on other issues besides this one. What I meant when I said to consider your vote carefully is to consider whether those issues trump this one. Are the things you like about this man enough to let this issue slide by without a hitch? I truly meant what I said - consider your vote very, very carefully.

[Colleen]

I truly meant what I said - consider your vote very, very carefully.

 

I take it for granted that people such as those to whom you are speaking here do give thoughtful consideration when voting.

[Trivium Academy]

I think that Kathleen is just trying to put it out there, so that people are aware- I don't think she personally wants everyone to vote the way she has decided to. There is no mention of voting for someone else in Kathleen's post or in the video.

 

A presidential candidate should be weighed and measured by their votes, their actions in previously held offices and this is just one of those votes that carries a bit more controversy and emotional stigma. I don't care who the candidate is, if they believe in live birth abortion and then also say they believe in Christ- I'm just befuddled by that person. I don't care what they promise, there are certain issues that are dealbreakers for me.

[Remudamom]

Well, in my case, I certainly hope folks do see things my way - that's true on most things though:D. In this particular case, I understand that many people like Obama for his stand on other issues besides this one. What I meant when said to consider your vote carefully is to consider whether those issues trump this one. Are the things you like about this man enough to let this issue slide by without a hitch? I truly meant what I said - consider your vote very, very carefully.

 

This is a #1 issue for me, it wouldn't matter where he stood on anything else, ANYTHING, it's murder.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Well, in my case, I certainly hope folks do see things my way - that's true on most things though:D. In this particular case, I understand that many people like Obama for his stand on other issues besides this one. What I meant when said to consider your vote carefully is to consider whether those issues trump this one. Are the things you like about this man enough to let this issue slide by without a hitch? I truly meant what I said - consider your vote very, very carefully.

 

I definitely won't let this issue slide by. Which is why I posted the CBN interview above.

 

I think I might have a different view of aggressive resuscitation of a 21 week infant. But I'm afraid to talk about that here.

[jacqui in mo]

What that bill also was doing was trying to undermine Roe vs. Wade. By the way, we also had a bill, a law already in place in Illinois that insured life saving treatment was given to infants.

 

How was the bill undermining R v W? (not snarky asking, really want to know) Was it so much that he could not possibly compromise to vote to save infants from being left to die after an incomplete abortion?

 

What does he mean "we had a bill" then says "a law already in place"? Does he mean he helped pass a bill previously that is now in place? If it is in place, why does it appear that infants of incomplete abortions are still being left to die? His wording in that statement also sounds vague "insured life saving treatment was given to infants." What does he mean by that? Was that bill specific to infants born alive after an abortion?

 

I just didn't feel this totally cleared up his voting actions. I would need more specific information.

 

Jacqui

[PameliaSue]

This is unacceptable!!! How can this even be an issue?!?!? :confused:

 

 

I WISH Hillary was the Dem canidade... I would rather her or McCain to Obama. At least with her you know where she stands... she stood against this... she has experience.... How the heck did Obama get more votes than her??? The more I learn about Obama the more HORRIFIED I become!!! AHHHHHH!

[Kathleen in VA]

 

I take it for granted that people such as those to whom you are speaking here do give thoughtful consideration when voting.

 

Well, obviously I don't. I think it is possible that some folks vote strictly party line and some cast a vote to oppose the other candidate, not really *for* anyone in particular. I also think some folks might not be aware of all that is at stake. It is really impossible for me to know what others think. This particular issue is important enough to bring into the forefront for consideration though.

 

I am not trying to accuse anyone of being a mindless idiot. I am only asking folks to take pause and not vote based on not liking a certain party or not liking the current President - but to truly give this issue deep consideration. You are much more generous in your assessment of voters than I am, I guess.

[laylamcb]

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/429328.aspx

 

I'm trying to make sure that I understand what really happened here vis a vis Obama's position on the bill that came up in Illinois. I watched Pam's clip as well as the first clip. Obama says in Pam's clip that he would have supported the federal legislation, but that the IL legislation was designed merely to undermine Roe v. Wade, not to protect against this practice of infanticide. He says in this clip that there is already legislation in IL that make sure this practice doesn't occur. So my questions are:

 

1. If legislation to protect against infanticide was in place already, who went to jail at the hospital where the nurse from the first video worked? Because, um, someone at that hospital clearly DIDN'T get the memo that this was illegal. Or didn't care....

 

2. The nurse in the first video says that Obama prevented them from introducing "identical language" into this IL bill (i.e., language that would've made it identical to the federal bill, which Obama says he would've supported). Is this true? If so, it's a bit thick for him to vote against the bill because it wasn't identical to the federal bill. But I want to withhold judgment because I feel like I'm getting the run-around from SOMEONE here.

 

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm pro-life. But it's not the ONLY thing that I am. At this point I don't plan to vote for either of the two major candidates, but I would very much like to make sure that I understand the role that Obama himself played in this particular situation.

 

Thank you to both the OP and to Pam for bringing us these clips!

[Tracey in TX]

It's stories like this which changed my view of abortion from a women's right to murder. What these babies have endured is no less than torture. Maybe this you tube clip can help change other people's view of abortion.

I pray that all legislators see the crimes that are committed against humanity understand that unborn and just-born (aborted) babies should be placed into this category.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I'm trying to make sure that I understand what really happened here vis a vis Obama's position on the bill that came up in Illinois. I watched Pam's clip as well as the first clip. Obama says in Pam's clip that he would have supported the federal legislation, but that the IL legislation was designed merely to undermine Roe v. Wade, not to protect against this practice of infanticide. He says in this clip that there is already legislation in IL that make sure this practice doesn't occur. So my questions are:

 

1. If legislation to protect against infanticide was in place already, who went to jail at the hospital where the nurse from the first video worked? Because, um, someone at that hospital clearly DIDN'T get the memo that this was illegal. Or didn't care....

 

If I had a late miscarriage at 21 weeks and decided to withhold aggressive measures to keep the baby alive, would that be illegal? Would I be required to make this infant suffer longer, needlessly? Would I be put in jail if mentally I just could not bear to hold the baby and watch it die in my arms? (And for the record, I WOULD withhold aggressive care, and I WOULD hold the child in my arms. My mother, who was not given the choice to hold her 21 week child, would make that same choice. I would find it cruel and experimental to aggressively intubate for a minute chance that the child might live. If that makes me jail-worthy or some kind of monster, I can only say that my conscience would be clear, though my heart would grieve until the day I died.)

 

2. The nurse in the first video says that Obama prevented them from introducing "identical language" into this IL bill (i.e., language that would've made it identical to the federal bill, which Obama says he would've supported). Is this true? If so, it's a bit thick for him to vote against the bill because it wasn't identical to the federal bill. But I want to withhold judgment because I feel like I'm getting the run-around from SOMEONE here.

 

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm pro-life. But it's not the ONLY thing that I am. At this point I don't plan to vote for either of the two major candidates, but I would very much like to make sure that I understand the role that Obama himself played in this particular situation.

 

Thank you to both the OP and to Pam for bringing us these clips!

 

I have no idea about the second part. I know that he has voted in the US senate against good bills on issues he would normally have supported where he took heat because of a rider later attached to the bill that went against his convictions. Much like the President might want to do if he was denied the right to a line-item veto. ??

[Quiver0f10]

all but Barack Obama. Some have argued that he did not fully understand the implications of his vote, but since he voted to support this kind of infanticide three times, that argument is difficult to believe.

 

So he votes on stuff he doesn't understand? That might be even scarier.

[Jugglin'5]

If I had a late miscarriage at 21 weeks and decided to withhold aggressive measures to keep the baby alive, would that be illegal? Would I be required to make this infant suffer longer, needlessly? Would I be put in jail if mentally I just could not bear to hold the baby and watch it die in my arms? (And for the record, I WOULD withhold aggressive care, and I WOULD hold the child in my arms. My mother, who was not given the choice to hold her 21 week child, would make that same choice. I would find it cruel and experimental to aggressively intubate for a minute chance that the child might live. If that makes me jail-worthy or some kind of monster, I can only say that my conscience would be clear, though my heart would grieve until the day I died.)

 

 

Pam, even if you wouldn't do it personally, would you really be okay with someone else putting the baby aside to die in the trash, with no human comfort or dignity? Frankly, I cannot imagine the harm it does to the medical personnel who treat them this way. They must have to build up some extreme callouses on their humanity to not go crazy.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Pam' date=' even if you wouldn't do it personally, would you really be okay with someone else putting the baby aside to die in the trash, with no human comfort or dignity? Frankly, I cannot imagine the harm it does to the medical personnel who treat them this way. They must have to build up some extreme callouses on their humanity to not go crazy.[/quote']

 

There is a long history of putting babies born alive but too young to live aside until they expire. And yes, I think that's incredibly callous. My dh's grandmother was not allowed to hold her 28 week infant, just watched as the nurse put it on a metal table, naked, while (he or she) squeeked (his or her) last. Horrifying. True. (The above was edited because someone took exception, and I do not know the child's gender.)

 

Would I really be ok with putting a baby in the trash with no human comfort or dignity? That's a crazy question. And frankly, I think it's crazy that someone would think Sen. Obama is such a monster that he believes this.

[Crissy]

So he votes on stuff he doesn't understand? That might be even scarier.

 

 

The fact that "some have argued" such a thing does not make it truth.

[genie]

So he votes on stuff he doesn't understand? That might be even scarier.

 

I would venture to guess that he understands what he votes on far more than any of us on this board understand it. Especially if terms like "Some have argued" are convincing enough for one to reach a conclusion.

 

That's one of the biggest reasons I have a hard time getting into politics. I am unwilling to deceive myself into believing that I've made an informed decision by simply watching a youtube video. Things are spun by both sides in their own favor. I would not feel confident forming an opinion on why he voted how he did on this matter unless I had read the proposal myself. And I find it hard to understand why so many people are quick to jump on bandwagons (on either side - I'm not pointing fingers at any particular person) without fully researching the background and the facts. All the facts. Not just the ones presented by one party.

 

I guess it's because, like me, most people feel it's an overwhelmingly impossible task to investigate every politician that thoroughly, every bill that thoroughly. So I sit in ignorance. But at least I'm aware of it.

[Jugglin'5]

Would I really be ok with putting a baby in the trash with no human comfort or dignity? That's a crazy question. And frankly, I think it's crazy that someone would think Sen. Obama is such a monster that he believes this.

 

The question is asked because that is what is happening. I don't believe Obama is sitting around rubbing his hands together with an mad scientist cackle, gleefully awaiting his next victim. But he knows what he is doing, and he has a 100% NARAL vote. No moderation on this issue at all. And if forcefully expelling them prematurely a few minutes earlier is fine, I don't see why we should be surprised that leaving them to die in the trash is fine with him as well. Or chopping them up. Not much diff.

 

Really I guess I am not that shocked by this. Par for the course. (I am speaking about Obama, not you).

[kailuamom]

Just had this link sent to me by a friend. Frightening, sickening, heartbreaking. Is this the change we are looking for?

 

 

 

.

 

This practice scares me,and I want to look into this further, to find out more -- how he voted, what he voted for, etc. How McCain voted. But I will admit that the video lost a bit of credibility for me with their reinactment -- the babies they showed are obviousy full term babies. While leaving any baby out to die like that, regardless of term, is just sickening, it is not an accurate picture to show that Obama supports what was shown. I am not saying that I support such legislation, or even what he voted for (once I determine what that actually was), I just tend to be sceptical of such youtube videos on the internet -- you never know who is telling the truth -- it is like the campaign ads on tv. The group that put out the video is nohussein.com (obvious emphasis on the hussein part of his name) -- so they are very anti-Obama.

[mom31257]

Okay, here goes. I don't normally get into these discussions. I wish we had the mentality in this country, that when we disagree strongly on issues we should find middle ground. To me, this was an issue that Obama could have come to the middle on, but wouldn't. He wouldn't on partial birth abortion, either. I think pro-choice people are scared if they give us an "inch", we'll take a "mile". But if they are so right and it's what the majority of this country wants, then why are they so scared it will happen?

 

The pro-life issue is, for me, probably the main reason I will be voting for McCain. I don't agree with anybody on everything, not even my husband, so I won't agree totally with any candidate. I know there could be Supreme Court appointments coming, and that's why my vote will go for McCain. By the way, I'm pro-life all the way. I'm against the death penalty and not for war. With humans, war will always happen, but believe it shouldn't when it can be avoided. I do believe there is something different about taking the life of babies, though. It is a "less human" act to me.

 

I watched this video with tears streaming down my face and literally prayed for God to have mercy on this country and this world. Even if you don't believe in God, how can you not believe this is just as bad as the holocaust?

 

I believe this is where the theory of evolution has led us. When we have no special beginning and no special end, why does the life we live in between really matter?

 

Sure, we can touch the lives of the people around us while we are here. We can make memories for those that will live after us. I love my life here and my family. I believe, though, that my knowing God created me with a special purpose and plan, and knowing I'll be with him for all eternity, makes this life SO MUCH MORE precious.

 

Do I wish everyone believed like me? Of course, I wouldn't be a Christian and not want everyone to accept Christ. Am I going to "push" it on others? No, because Christ didn't push it on anybody. I believe in freedom of the individual.

 

I do not want to offend anyone, so please just know this is how I feel.

[nmoira]

 

How was the bill undermining R v W? (not snarky asking, really want to know) Was it so much that he could not possibly compromise to vote to save infants from being left to die after an incomplete abortion?

Flip that around. Was inserting language to undermine Roe v. Wade so important to the pro-life movement that they couldn't compromise? As I understand it the federal bill (which Obama said he would support) didn't have this problem.

[PiCO]

... But I will admit that the video lost a bit of credibility for me with their reinactment -- the babies they showed are obviousy full term babies. While leaving any baby out to die like that, regardless of term, is just sickening, it is not an accurate picture to show that Obama supports what was shown. ... I just tend to be sceptical of such youtube videos on the internet -- you never know who is telling the truth -- it is like the campaign ads on tv. The group that put out the video is nohussein.com (obvious emphasis on the hussein part of his name) -- so they are very anti-Obama.

 

I agree with kailuamom here. What is depicted in the video is obviously a horrendous practice. BUT- the video drastically underplayed the age of these infants. What else about the case was underplayed, or simply left out?

 

For the record, I am not an Obama fan. I am, however, appalled by blatant propaganda for any agenda.

[Philothea]

Kathleen,

 

I think that it was incredibly herioc for you to post that on this board.

 

Many people get so involved in issues that are, in light of baby murder, just plain selfish. Sure there are other issues the economy, loved ones going off to fight in wars, etc. But until something is done about gruesome acts against innocent babies, we cannot move on to fix the other things that are wrong.

 

I think people hear lots of campaign twaddle about "Hope" and "Together we can" and other such empty promises, the ones who believe this stuff really need to be brought down to reality.

[sleepy]

I would venture to guess that he understands what he votes on far more than any of us on this board understand it. Especially if terms like "Some have argued" are convincing enough for one to reach a conclusion.

 

That's one of the biggest reasons I have a hard time getting into politics. I am unwilling to deceive myself into believing that I've made an informed decision by simply watching a youtube video. Things are spun by both sides in their own favor. I would not feel confident forming an opinion on why he voted how he did on this matter unless I had read the proposal myself. And I find it hard to understand why so many people are quick to jump on bandwagons (on either side - I'm not pointing fingers at any particular person) without fully researching the background and the facts. All the facts. Not just the ones presented by one party.

 

I guess it's because, like me, most people feel it's an overwhelmingly impossible task to investigate every politician that thoroughly, every bill that thoroughly. So I sit in ignorance. But at least I'm aware of it.

 

:iagree:

[beansprouts]

I still don't get what it is about birth that magically transforms a blob of tissue into a human being. The baby on the table is the same baby that was a moment ago in its mother's womb. It seems to me that once we rejected conception as the beginning of human life the line just became more and more fuzzy.

[8filltheheart]

Question: At what point does a baby get human rights in your view?

 

Obama’s answer:

 

Well, you know, I think that whether you’re looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity, you know, is above my pay grade.

 

The question was not at what term in a pregnancy. FWIW, there are numerous sites with the Illinois Senate issue addressing the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act (BAIPA). This is not news among the pro-life community. It has only been picked up by the main stream media b/c of the above direct quote during the Saddleback interview.

 

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NzE1Y2MyMmFjMWYzNmUwYTA4NGUwNmJmYzY1MzQyMGQ=

 

is one summation of the the issue.

[PrairieAir]

That nurse's account is really heart-wrenching. I never would have imagined that this kind of thing takes place in hospitals in this country, and it saddens me deeply.

 

However, I can understand what Pam is saying. (Now here's my big CC warning! Don't read any further if you will be offended or if you want to argue the existence of God or His willingness or ability to perform miracles. I am mainly speaking to other Christians here.) I don't know that I would choose aggressive measures for an infant that doctors said did not have a chance to live. Certainly not without a firm belief in God's ability to perform a miracle in that child's life. Can I fault someone who does not have that belief or whose believing is not strong enough? People succumb to illnesses that I believe they could be healed from all the time. Do I condemn someone as they're dying of cancer because they haven't done everything they could or haven't believed "hard" enough? (I'm not of the belief that death is a sign that it is someone's time and God is calling them to be with Him in heaven, btw, something which may be troubling to some of my fellow Christians, but there it is.) Of course I don't. What about someone who is has been sick for some time of something that doctors feel they have a good chance to recover from and yet they get tired of fighting and basically give up? Would you condemn them? I hope not.

 

I do condemn the way this is apparently being done in some places. I would not leave a cancer patient or elderly person to die alone and I cannot imagine doing that to one of these babies. That said, I don't think I could handle a job that required me to sit with people while they die, and I imagine children and infants would be especially heartbreaking. I think it takes a very special kind of person to be able to do this, at least on such a regular basis. It must be very hard on them emotionally anyway and I commend that nurse for what she did.

 

I would like to thank Pam for including that other link. It didn't erase the horror at the first clip, but it did ease my mind a little bit about Barack Obama. Even if I don't vote for him, it's an image of him I'd hate to hold onto, especially if it isn't quite true.

 

What I am really wondering after watching Pam's clip is why politicians would feel the need to squeeze in items they want passed at the expense of these infants. Why not introduce separate bills about the different issues? The reason is because they know the one item will shock and horrify people so much that they will demand for the bill to be passed and that their item which may not have passed on its own will squeak on through, hardly noticed at all. I think it's detestable that this is the norm in politics, even when such things as this are at stake.

[Kathleen in VA]

I still don't get what it is about birth that magically transforms a blob of tissue into a human being. The baby on the table is the same baby that was a moment ago in its mother's womb. It seems to me that once we rejected conception as the beginning of human life the line just became more and more fuzzy.

 

Excellent point! Thanks for sharing.

[nmoira]

Many people get so involved in issues that are, in light of baby murder, just plain selfish. Sure there are other issues the economy, loved ones going off to fight in wars, etc. But until something is done about gruesome acts against innocent babies, we cannot move on to fix the other things that are wrong.

That's a rather sweeping statement. Why can't we? Is there an order in which we have to tackle problems/issues?

 

Obama is pro-choice. However, this is a different issue. If you don't want to vote Obama solely because he's pro-choice, that's your business. He declined to vote for a bill that would erode abortion rights. This is perfectly consistent with what he claims to believe, and is neither shocking nor surprising. I'd be after the drafters of the bill for not trying their darnedest to carefully choose language to stick to the intention of the bill to help ensure its passgge... unless the bill was drafted simply for the sake of political posturing.

[PrairieAir]

Question: At what point does a baby get human rights in your view?

 

Obama’s answer:

 

Well, you know, I think that whether you’re looking at it from a theological perspective or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity, you know, is above my pay grade.

 

The question was not at what term in a pregnancy. FWIW, there are numerous sites with the Illinois Senate issue addressing the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act (BAIPA). This is not news among the pro-life community. It has only been picked up by the main stream media b/c of the above direct quote during the Saddleback interview.

 

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NzE1Y2MyMmFjMWYzNmUwYTA4NGUwNmJmYzY1MzQyMGQ=

 

is one summation of the the issue.

 

Why is this such a bad answer? It sounds to me as though he was not talking about just babies who have been born and taken their first breaths. It sounds to me as though he is aware of the implications that any answer he gives could have toward the abortion issue and that many pro-life people consider an embryo or a fetus as a "baby" and call it such. Basically he's saying he doesn't know, and he doesn't feel qualified either from a point of scientific or theological knowledge to answer specifically. It is a question that is difficult for many people, myself included.

[beansprouts]

As far as this issue, I am kind of with Pam. I don't know if I would want to take drastic measures to save my premature baby's life. In the same way I would use my judgement about medical care for any loved one at the end of his life. It would depend on a number of factors. I think the mother should be allowed to make that call. However, I do think the baby's humanity needs to be recognized and all reasonable measures taken to make the infant comfortable. If the mother does not want to hold the baby, than blankets and incubators are always available.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

However, I do think the baby's humanity needs to be recognized and all reasonable measures taken to make the infant comfortable. If the mother does not want to hold the baby, than blankets and incubators are always available.

 

I agree. When my mother told me that her doctor told her that her 21 weeker was "just a piece of meat" and that she couldn't hold or see it, I got literally ill.

[genie]

He declined to vote for a bill that would erode abortion rights. This is perfectly consistent with what he claims to believe, and is neither shocking nor surprising. I'd be after the drafters of the bill for not trying their darnedest to carefully choose language to stick to the intention of the bill to help ensure its passgge... unless the bill was drafted simply for the sake of political posturing.

 

If indeed Obama is accurate in what he said about the unnecessary inclusions in this bill, it makes me start to wonder why other pro-choice candidates voted for it. Is it perhaps that they knew exactly how it would "look" when presented to the general public by the media? Is it possible Obama was one of the few who voted on the actual bill, not just on what he thought would best help his presidential candidacy?

[percytruffle]

What I am really wondering after watching Pam's clip is why politicians would feel the need to squeeze in items they want passed at the expense of these infants. Why not introduce separate bills about the different issues? The reason is because they know the one item will shock and horrify people so much that they will demand for the bill to be passed and that their item which may not have passed on its own will squeak on through, hardly noticed at all. I think it's detestable that this is the norm in politics, even when such things as this are at stake.

 

 

Exactly. Detestable and abominable come to mind.

[Kathleen in VA]

As far as this issue, I am kind of with Pam. I don't know if I would want to take drastic measures to save my premature baby's life. In the same way I would use my judgement about medical care for any loved one at the end of his life. It would depend on a number of factors. I think the mother should be allowed to make that call. However, I do think the baby's humanity needs to be recognized and all reasonable measures taken to make the infant comfortable. If the mother does not want to hold the baby, than blankets and incubators are always available.

 

I have nothing but the deepest sympathy with a mom who gives birth prematurely to a severely ill newborn. I honestly do not know what I would do in that case. I could suppose what I would do about it now and then, when faced with the actual challenge, go a completely different way. I, too, feel that is the mother's (parent's?) prerogative. There are no easy answers in cases like that. I very much agree that the baby's humanity should be recognized and every effort to make the baby comfortable should be attempted.

 

"Induced-birth abortion" is not the same thing, however. These are cases where the mother has chosen to deliberately end the life of the baby by being artificially induced to give birth prematurely and then allowing the live baby to die from neglect. That, in my book, is murder.

[8filltheheart]

Why is this such a bad answer? It sounds to me as though he was not talking about just babies who have been born and taken their first breaths. It sounds to me as though he is aware of the implications that any answer he gives could have toward the abortion issue and that many pro-life people consider an embryo or a fetus as a "baby" and call it such. Basically he's saying he doesn't know, and he doesn't feel qualified either from a point of scientific or theological knowledge to answer specifically. It is a question that is difficult for many people, myself included.

 

You are absolutely entitled to your POV and I am not going to argue one way or the other on this forum.

 

However, at some point, there has to be a line where a human being is defined as a person with basic rights. Not defining that time.....whether it is viability after birth or some other definition.....is simply begging the question of when do rights begin.

 

Our country is founded on the rights of its citizens. The president needs to have a firm answer as to when he will defend those rights.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I have nothing but the deepest sympathy with a mom who gives birth prematurely to a severely ill newborn. I honestly do not know what I would do in that case. I could suppose what I would do about it now and then, when faced with the actual challenge, go a completely different way. I, too, feel that is the mother's (parent's?) prerogative. There are no easy answers in cases like that. I very much agree that the baby's humanity should be recognized and every effort to make the baby comfortable should be attempted.

 

"Induced-birth abortion" is not the same thing, however. These are cases where the mother has chosen to deliberately end the life of the baby by being artificially induced to give birth prematurely and then allowing the live baby to die from neglect. That, in my book, is murder.

 

It's the same 21 week gestation, though. Nothing changes as far as chances of surviving if it's induced or is spontaneous. If it's induced, of course it's less likely to have a parent introduce aggressive measures to keep it (artificially, IMO) alive. Isn't it then murder if the spontaneously lost fetus isn't intubated? How can it not be if the other is?

 

Both should be treated with all possible dignity, I think. But neither are, at least not 100% of the time.

[nmoira]

 

If indeed Obama is accurate in what he said about the unnecessary inclusions in this bill, it makes me start to wonder why other pro-choice candidates voted for it. Is it perhaps that they knew exactly how it would "look" when presented to the general public by the media? Is it possible Obama was one of the few who voted on the actual bill, not just on what he thought would best help his presidential candidacy?

I'm obviously not inside the guy's mind, but it's possible. I think it's gutsy to vote against a bill like that -- especially for someone with higher political aspirations -- because of how it can be spun.

[clarkacademy]

If a president cannot state when life begins then I don't think he has a right to be our president. If you cannot answer that question all I can say is moral bancruptcy.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

If a president cannot state when life begins then I don't think he has a right to be our president. If you cannot answer that question all I can say is moral bancruptcy.

 

Hmm. Well, I guess I am, by your definition, morally bankrupt. There is no way I could answer that question. I know a whole lot of very decent people who also cannot answer it. I know some who cannot, but prefer to err on the side of a taking no chances and say "conception." I know some who prefer to err on the side of the mother's choice. I know some who say, because they believe that the soul enters at birth, "birth."

 

So, perhaps we are all morally bankrupt. ??

[kokotg]

 

Many people get so involved in issues that are, in light of baby murder, just plain selfish. Sure there are other issues the economy, loved ones going off to fight in wars, etc. But until something is done about gruesome acts against innocent babies, we cannot move on to fix the other things that are wrong.

 

I think people hear lots of campaign twaddle about "Hope" and "Together we can" and other such empty promises, the ones who believe this stuff really need to be brought down to reality.

 

Innocent babies die in wars, too. And innocent children and innocent teenagers and innocent adults. When the economy is run in such a way that we're in debt to China and our hands are tied about speaking out about the forced abortions and other atrocious human rights violations there, innocent people suffer. "The other things that are wrong" involve lots of innocent people suffering and dying. The suggestion that because I vote on more than one issue I don't take human suffering into account and I'm "selfish" is untrue and insulting.

[genie]

If a president cannot state when life begins then I don't think he has a right to be our president. If you cannot answer that question all I can say is moral bancruptcy.

 

That wasn't the question. The question was when does a baby get the rights, by law, that are entitled to American citizens. This is a legal question that would have a huge impact on the execution of the Constitution in our country. I'm sure Obama has his own opinion of when life begins, but that was not the question that was asked.