s/o makeup: Who paints their boys' nails? And lets them wear pink? Etc.

[redsquirrel]

I paint my nails on occasion and have picked up a lot of polish over the years. Anyone in the house is welcome to use it. Sometimes when I buy a new bottle of nail polish my boys will pick one of their own own. I don't have a problem with that. Sometimes their nails have been pink, sometimes black, sometimes silver or glitter. I see the same on many of their friends, boys and girls. Most of the time they aren't wearing any nail polish.

 

Both my boys have worn typically girl clothing at times. It generally was stuff they picked out at second hand stores etc. It wasn't easy for me to agree to it, but if I would be fine with a girl wearing pants or 'boy clothes' then I believe I should 'walk the walk' and let my boys wear what they wanted as well. I assure you it wasn't my idea and it wasn't always comfortable for me, but I let them make their own decisions. They were both just as likely to wear a Halloween costume (Batman or a fairy or a knight) as a skirt they got from a garage sale. Both boys always chose 'girl' sneakers when they were younger and always asked for pink winter coats or mittens etc. Again, it is their choice and no one ever said anything unkind.

 

They get to pick their own hair style as well. Right now, one has short hair and one has very long hair. The one with short hair wants to do a temp dye of green or purple. It is his hair so it is his choice.

[dbmamaz]

when my son was 3 or 4 he asked for green nail polish. I had to check several places - it wasnt in fashion that year.  Finally i bought two and let him pick which one. He had me paint all the nails on one hand, he looked at it, and said, "take it off now."  and that was it!  i thought it was hysterically funny!  

 

I havent dressed my boys in pink, they havent shown any interest in it, but i wouldnt care if they did.  I was taking care of a boy who was refusing to wear clothing in a poorly heated space in the winter - the only thing I could get on him were these two dresses, sweatshirt weight, one pink and one purple. I thought it was better than being naked, but his mom was horrified!

[LucyStoner]

I'm not being snotty here -- I'm honestly wondering.

 

Am I the only one who never sees boys wearing pink nail polish in real life? (Occasionally I'll see a teenage boy who's trying to be edgy and cool by dying his hair jet black and wearing black clothes and black nail polish, but that's about it.)

 

Am I the only one who has never had a real-life discussion with friends about their sons wearing nail polish?

 

I only ask because this isn't the first time that someone has started a thread about this, and I can't help but wonder it's common in other places. I mean, I truly have never seen an 8 or 10 year-old boy walking around the mall wearing pink nail polish.

 

It all depends on where you live.  I'd hazard to guess it is more common in say, Seattle and San Francisco, than well, pretty much anywhere else in the US. 

[redsquirrel]

It all depends on where you live.  I'd hazard to guess it is more common in say, Seattle and San Francisco, than well, pretty much anywhere else in the US. 

 

I live on the opposite side of the country from Seattle or San Francisco and it is a fairly common sight in these parts. I see boys with polish, sometimes black or dark red or glitter or hot pink. It is always a statement color, nothing pastel. Sometimes it is only one finger or every other or a different color on each finger etc. But the majority of teen boys and girls don't wear any polish.

 

I have seen polish toenails on boys as well. That showed up last year or the year before. Or maybe I just noticed it then.

[Mrs Mungo]

For the record, I had a pedicure this weekend. A great big strong Samoan guy was in the pedicure chair next to mine.

[Gil]

I have never done it and I would never allow that.

I'm not going to actively or passively encourage "girly" behavior in my sons.

It doesn't sit right with me, on an instinctive level so my answer would be No. Never. Nuh-uh.

Fortunately it isn't an issue for us. But if it ever came up:

NO to nail polish
NO to dresses
NO to skirts
NO to tutus

NO to barettes

NO to high-heeled shoes

NO to dressing up and playing "I'm a woman"

and

NO to any other thing that is considered by my American culture overtly "female/girl/women" behavior.

 

The exception is they do play with some girls toys at their grandmothers house--(Doll house, baby dolls, tea set) but that stuff was already there. Fortunately, both of my sons seem quite drawn to their "male-gender roles." There are no women in our household so I'd have to go out of my way to introduce girly stuff to them and I will NOT be doing it. They have always been allowed to play 'house' and to play at cooking. They each have their own apron. They each actively clean the house (for real, not for play). Domestic self-sufficiency is something I like to encourage. They can play at family/house if they want. They have stuffed animals of both genders and they act out women roles with them. They may not play with anything that I feel isn't gender-role appropriate as far as I am concerned.

 

Perhaps if one of them were naturally inclined to "girly" stuff I would dig deep and find it in me to be more sensitive toward that particular child. As it stands, I don't have the desire, time or energy to invite some sort of gender-identity ambiguity crisis type stuff into my home. I'm not religious, but none of that flies with my personal values--and I grew up with a boy who was secretly gay. He told me when he was 13 and I was the ONLY one who stood by him when in high-school he was outed and the two of us still talk/see one another quite often--I don't have 'her' around my children for a number of reasons but his desire to behave like a 'her' is in the top 3. We've had it out about that a few times but ultimately I pointed out that I respected him, his decisions and lifestyle enough to have NEVER given him a hard time about them and if he were a true friend he'd respect mine. After a couple of weeks of not talking, she agreed with me.

 

I don't teach the boys to mock people or that standard "macho" crap is manly. I call stupid what it is, I don't care what cause it is supporting: stupid = stupid.

I have taught my sons that it is okay to cry if that is how you feel--happy, sad, in between, there is nothing wrong with crying. Babies cry, toddlers cry, children cry, teens cry, adults cry--it isn't an age or gender thing. I have been trying to teach my boys the importance of respecting PEOPLE, not their genitals--the person. I have been talking about authority, trust, and respect with them for a couple of years now.

 

[AimeeM]

Not here (do we allow it).

Religious jewelry is fine.

We're pretty solidly (happily) invested in traditionalism, lol.

[jenangelcat]

My son has worn skirts, nail polish, pink, barrettes and played with dolls! He also likes planes, trains, wrestling and clothes from the boys department. My girls wear all colours, play in the mud, wear pants and skirts (sometimes both at the same), enjoy science and all manner of masculine things. We let the kids enjoy what they want, we don't place them in boxes.

 

No it isn't going to make them gay, screw with their "gender identity" or other such illogical nonsense. Being a woman or having "girly traits" isn't a bad thing. I wish people would stop using it as an insult. Also having a "token gay friend" doesn't give you a pass.

[yucabird]

Am I the only one who has young daughters who paint their father's nails? 

[Aura]

LOL It's nice to know that there are lots of others that don't sweat stuff like that.

 

Gil, it's not that I (or most on here, I gather) encourage this stuff. There's no inviting of any gender-ambiguity. It's more of the fact that little boys see something they think is cool (sparkly and colorful, like someone mentioned) and want to be a part of it. They don't see it as being "girly." In fact, at the ages we're talking about here, there's really not much difference in their eyes between girls and boys. As soon as they realize that there is gender association with it, they tend to stop. Until then, they just see it as being fun, and like most little kids (and heck, even big kids!) they don't want to be left out. They grow out of it soon enough....But that wasn't meant to be criticism toward you. I think your attitude is perfectly healthy. (Not that my opinion matters. B)) I just wanted to clarify MY position.

 

[peachskittles]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/peachskittles/2013-10-31133910_zps4b7833e9.jpg

 

The above link is a guess the girl picture.  Yep, it is not the purple clad child.  This was his second year as a princess.  That smile is exactly why I do not care about what is considered "normal" in society.  People come in all types, and some types don't conform to what society dictates is proper for their sex.

 

I do not care what my sons or daughter wears as long as it is appropriate for the weather.  My son is my unique child.  He has long hair and has his own fashion style.  A few months ago, we ran to the store to get the children a few new pieces of much needed clothing.  My son ran up to me squealing, I mean a happy, excited little boy squeal.  I turned around, and he showed me these patterned pants that were meant for girls.  He begged me to buy them.  No need to twist my arm, I was happy that he was finally happy buying his own clothes (he is 6).  He found a shirt in the girls department that he liked to go with the pants (no prompting from me).  Since then, he is slowly realizing that he can get whatever he wants except for skirts or dresses (his father, while accepting, is working his way to that).  He has his eye on a nice purple zip up sweater that I promised I would buy once we have money.  I am not my children, I am not their brain, and I want them to think for themselves.  If they want some crazy clothes, have at it.  If they want to dress more "normal", I support that too.  Same with hair, long hair, short hair, whatever...It's hair, it'll grow back. 

 

So yes, I paint my children's nails equally, let them dress in pink if it floats their boat, and even will buy My Little Pony if my sons really want them (and yes, he does).

 

 

[Bearcat]

My daughter is not even allowed to wear nail polish yet, so I think it goes with out saying that neither are my sons. Nail polish is messy and I just don't like dealing with it.

My younger son is very anti any thing he perceives as girly. There have been a couple times I dressed him in his sister's dress just to have some fun with him and he went crazy. Just absolutely crying buckets and begging me to take it off. The one "girly" thing he does like/allow is curlers in his hair. When ever I put them I his sister's hair he begs for some in his hair. The only problem is that he does not have very long hair so it can be tricky to get curlers to stay in his hair.

My older son was more ambivilant when he was younger. He would play with dolls and pretend to nurse them etc. when I put him in his sister's dress he thought it was funny but never sought out dressing in girly things. As he has gotten older I see him starting to care a little more but still mostly wants to do what he wants to do whether it is a traditional boy or girl thing.

 

As far as pink clothes for boys and men goes, I did not realize that was an issue these days. Men and boys wear pink all the time. My husband does not but that is because of his coloring. Just does not look good on him. He wears more autumn colors. :-)

[Gil]

No it isn't going to make them gay, screw with their "gender identity" or other such illogical nonsense. Being a woman or having "girly traits" isn't a bad thing. I wish people would stop using it as an insult. Also having a "token gay friend" doesn't give you a pass.

I agree 100% about "being a woman...isn't bad."

 

I never said or meant to say that being a woman was an insult. I didn't even mean to imply that, so if you or anyone got that from my post I apologize--my mother raised me better than that. I know better than that.

 

Womanhood isn't a 'negative' anymore than Manhood is a 'positive' it just is. I love women, they have made and still do make my life more interesting and more fun. They add a richness to life that I can't imagine getting anywhere else. I have enjoyed the companionship and friendship of several people who were women. I have been in love with and had 2 wonderful kids with a woman. YAY WOMEN!!! Hooray for Women! Women are wonderful!

 

However, I 100% stand by what I said about my absolute lack of desire to encourage what I would consider inappropriate behavior in my male child.

[catz]

It all depends on where you live.  I'd hazard to guess it is more common in say, Seattle and San Francisco, than well, pretty much anywhere else in the US.

I don't live in either of these cities either, but I do live in an extremely progressive urban area. Not usual to see just about anything. Even in local homeschooling kids.

[Dana]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/peachskittles/2013-10-31133910_zps4b7833e9.jpg

 

The above link is a guess the girl picture. Yep, it is not the purple clad child. This was his second year as a princess. That smile is exactly why I do not care about what is considered "normal" in society. People come in all types, and some types don't conform to what society dictates is proper for their sex.

 

I do not care what my sons or daughter wears as long as it is appropriate for the weather. My son is my unique child. He has long hair and has his own fashion style. A few months ago, we ran to the store to get the children a few new pieces of much needed clothing. My son ran up to me squealing, I mean a happy, excited little boy squeal. I turned around, and he showed me these patterned pants that were meant for girls. He begged me to buy them. No need to twist my arm, I was happy that he was finally happy buying his own clothes (he is 6). He found a shirt in the girls department that he liked to go with the pants (no prompting from me). Since then, he is slowly realizing that he can get whatever he wants except for skirts or dresses (his father, while accepting, is working his way to that). He has his eye on a nice purple zip up sweater that I promised I would buy once we have money. I am not my children, I am not their brain, and I want them to think for themselves. If they want some crazy clothes, have at it. If they want to dress more "normal", I support that too. Same with hair, long hair, short hair, whatever...It's hair, it'll grow back.

 

So yes, I paint my children's nails equally, let them dress in pink if it floats their boat, and even will buy My Little Pony if my sons really want them (and yes, he does).

You're wonderful!

 

My nephew wears hello kitty everywhere and loves pink. His parents let him make that choice.

[LLMom]

 ( I think John Boehner would look fabulous with his nails painted cheeto-orange. It would match his obviously stained/painted/made-up facial coloring. )

  How in the heck does "living in a conservative state" save you from seeing males with nail polish? You do realize that "those people" are everywhere?

 

 

 

Ds also spent a long time believing he was a hummingbird. Then he lived in his white Power Ranger outfit for ages and ages. After that he decided that he would marry either Buffy the Vampire Slayer or the Blue Power Ranger.

He was in Texas, too! A red state,  a conservative town, and an extremely conservative neighborhood. Jeez, I hope he didn't offend any of them. Oh no--now we're in NY.  Rural, conservative. Yet I see many boys with dyed hair--green mohawks, pink stripes.

The logic.  It's killing me.

 

 

No, I don't see this.  I do live in a smallish town between 2 very large cities. 

[chelsmm]

My son has worn nail polish before. He has an older sister and wanted to have his nails like her nails. He doesn't want that anymore, but if he did, that would be fine. He can wear whatever color he wants. I can't imagine telling him that it's not ok to wear pink! It's a color. That's all.

 

He is currently growing his hair long. Not sure how long that will last, but if he wants long hair on his head, that's fine too.

 

I want my kids to know that their body is their own. It is not for me to decide what they wear or how their hair is styled. They are healthy, happy kids. That's what is important.

 

They are also confident. My ds once wore his sister's bathing suit for a YMCA swim lesson. I had forgotten his suit but her suit was in the car. She wasn't swimming that day, so he wore it. He didn't care one bit. He was five. It was a one piece. The teenaged male instructor gave him a high five when I explained the situation. He swam his little heart out and has a blast. The other kids didn't care a bit.

 

He also had pink crocs last year. And pink cleats. I offered to buy him new, but he said his sister's old ones fit fine and he didn't mind the color. He has plenty of friends and no one has ever teased him about what he wears.

[redsquirrel]

I agree 100% about "being a woman...isn't bad."

 

I never said or meant to say that being a woman was an insult. I didn't even mean to imply that, so if you or anyone got that from my post I apologize--my mother raised me better than that. I know better than that.

 

Womanhood isn't a 'negative' anymore than Manhood is a 'positive' it just is. I love women, they have made and still do make my life more interesting and more fun. They add a richness to life that I can't imagine getting anywhere else. I have enjoyed the companionship and friendship of several people who were women. I have been in love with and had 2 wonderful kids with a woman. YAY WOMEN!!! Hooray for Women! Women are wonderful!

 

However, I 100% stand by what I said about my absolute lack of desire to encourage what I would consider inappropriate behavior in my male child.

 

I believe that most 'gender appropriate' behavior is totally learned and then enforced by society. So, I don't think there is any such thing as inappropriate gender behaviour because it is all made up and subject to the whims of society. Behavior is simply human behavior, and not gender specific. What is masculine for one generation is gender neutral for the next.

 

I am curious as to what behavior you think is hard wired into gender? or if not hard wired then gender specific.

 

I promise I am not trying to pick a fight. I know you prob don't believe me, but I don't meet many people like you. I am curious because you seem to have given this a lot of thought. What would be inappropriate? You say they are allowed to have tea parties or play with dolls at grandma's house, so are you mostly concerned with their clothing clothing choices? What about colours? Are there gender specific colours? Are you the sort to throw out the pink crayons? I have seen that mentioned on this board, so it is not out of left field.  Do you monitor their reading materials for female behaviour in male characters? What about what they want to be when they grow up? Are there specific jobs you find acceptable? How about hobbies? Are your boys allowed to be in plays or sing in choir or draw? Or are the arts forbidden as being too feminine?

 

You mention your gay friend, you do know that most gay men do ever not dress as women, right? Actual cross dressers tend to be straight men. You call your friend both 'she' and 'he' and I will assume that is how your friend wants to be addressed, and not a slur.  Most gay men do not identify as 'she' or as a female.  Do you know that gender identity is separate from sexual orientation? They are two different things. A gay man is just as likely to have a fixed gender identity as a heterosexual man. Having confusion about one's sexual identity is not the same as having confusion about one's gender identity. Someone could, of course, struggle with both. Or someone could struggle with neither.

 

If you had a girl would you only permit her to dress in skirts and never wear pants? would she have to wear nail polish if your boys are forbidden to do so?

 

What male gender specific behaviours would you forbid to your daughters? I  know you don't have any daughters, but I am curious as to how you would apply this in theory. What would be off the table?

 

Do you expect certain behaviour from the adult women in your life? Must they wear dresses and skirts around your sons to prevent any gender confusion?

[Ravin]

I don't wear nail polish,

 

I know one woman who used it on one of her twins to help tell them apart when they were still very small. (it's much easier to tell them apart now.)

My mom kept one of my twin sister's big toe painted until she was sure she could tell them apart (they're identical).

[unfrumpable.]

My favorite words with regard to this subject, courtesy of Madonna.

 

Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading
But secretly you'd love to know what it's like
Wouldn't you
What it feels like for a girl

[Guest inoubliable]

 

 

--and I grew up with a boy who was secretly gay. He told me when he was 13 and I was the ONLY one who stood by him when in high-school he was outed and the two of us still talk/see one another quite often--I don't have 'her' around my children for a number of reasons but his desire to behave like a 'her' is in the top 3. We've had it out about that a few times but ultimately I pointed out that I respected him, his decisions and lifestyle enough to have NEVER given him a hard time about them and if he were a true friend he'd respect mine. After a couple of weeks of not talking, she agreed with me.

 

 

 

o.O

 

From gay to transgender, eh? 

I'm having a hard time understanding how you respect someone enough to not have them around you, and demand that they respect that, um, level of respect coming from you. Good luck to your kids on figuring that one out, too. 

[LucyStoner]

Being gay does not mean being transgender.  A boy who wants to be a girl is trans, not gay.  They may also be gay but being trans doesn't mean they are gay.  My brother is trans and gay. 

 

My brother's bio man very gay husband is the burliest, man's man I know and dude knits and crochets.  In addition to doing every traditional guy's guy thing you can think of.  Whereas my straight husband reads Martha Stewart Living and books about tailoring and was not infrequently mistaken for gay in his most fashion conscious days. 

 

Wanting to wear pink does not necessarily have anything to do with being gender queer or gay or trans.  My older son, judging how he reacts to girls and boys as puberty starts to creep up is most likely straight.  A fondness for the color pink and a refusal to be hemmed in by gender normative colors doesn't say much of anything, if anything at all, about a boy's sexuality. 

 

 

[LucyStoner]

My older son picked out these shoes today. 

 

 

I suppose I could have paid more and made him shop on the "boys side" of the store (there were no boys clearance shoes in his size that he would touch with a ten foot pole) but that is not how I roll.  I like stuff on sale and the fact that he will be logging his miles for running in slightly purple shoes doesn't really make a difference. 

 

[Χά�ων]

I buy DS women's shoes. He has a narrow, but long foot and they fit better.

 

and those do not look feminine at all. DS said he would like these shoes. Do they come in a Women's 12.5 narrow?

My older son picked out these shoes today. 

 

 

I suppose I could have paid more and made him shop on the "boys side" of the store (there were no boys clearance shoes in his size that he would touch with a ten foot pole) but that is not how I roll.  I like stuff on sale and the fact that he will be logging his miles for running in slightly purple shoes doesn't really make a difference. 

 

[LucyStoner]

Ok, last post.

 

It is no more a political statement to allow boys to cross gender lines color wise etc than it is to NOT ALLOW them to do so. Both decisions reflect a families' values. I dislike strongly the hinting that being "liberal" or "progressive" on this issue is just to prove a point or is some how actively encouraged by parents. I no more made my older son prefer pink and bright colors, science and art and spelling than I make my younger son prefer his blue and more dark traditional boys clothes, Darth Vader, violin and every sport he sees. My younger son's favorite shoes are firetruck light up monstrosities I would never reach for on my own. Kids are who they are and as a parent, I don't stand in the way of that unless there is a moral reason. I have never made a political point using my kids and I have let my older son make choices I wouldn't have made and were contrary to my own personal opinions (like joining Cub Scouts).

 

Oh and Gil, women do not, as a group, "have it made". I tried to let that slide, but I failed. Oh well.

 

I don't live in either of these cities either, but I do live in an extremely progressive urban area. Not usual to see just about anything. Even in local homeschooling kids.

I don't think that it is super common here either but it's not unheard of. My son definitely got looks and comments and some teasing at school. But he's not the sort to give a darn. When told he was wearing girls socks when he was like 4 or 5, he said in his very literal way, "I'm a boy and these are my socks, so these are boys' socks." :lol:

[LucyStoner]

I buy DS women's shoes. He has a narrow, but long foot and they fit better.

 

and those do not look feminine at all. DS said he would like these shoes. Do they come in a Women's 12.5 narrow?

 

They were in the girls section, not the women's section so I doubt it.  My son has size 6 feet. 

[Χά�ων]

They were in the girls section, not the women's section so I doubt it.  My son has size 6 feet. 

I am jealous, youth shoes are cheaper than adult shoes. I cried when DS outgrew a pair of nice running shoes two weeks after I bought them. Good quality running shoes with support are not cheap.

[SKL]

nm

[Χά�ων]

My ds wore a pink snowsuit long about 2T because he has three older sisters and that was the only slightly worn-out snowsuit that we had for chores. I think that's the only pink he's ever worn. Carhartts don't come in pink. I don't think he's ever had painted toenails, but then, I never have and his sisters rarely have. It's just not something we do around here. He's never shown any interest in sparkly dance costumes. He's always wanted to be like his dad, who has never shown an interest in sparkly nail polish...

Actually, they do come in pink and plum purple now

 

 

[Mrs Mungo]

The fact that my dh wears pink or purple doesn't make him gay or feminine. Some of these posts are ludicrous.

[Catwoman]

The fact that my dh wears pink or purple doesn't make him gay or feminine. Some of these posts are ludicrous.

Did anyone say that boys and men wearing pink and purple made them gay or feminine? I haven't been reading that closely, so I may have missed it.

 

I got the impression that most people were agreeing that pink shirts were available in both the boys and men's departments and that they would have no problem with males wearing pink.

 

I think there may be some debate over shopping in the girls' department for pink clothing for boys, or boys dressing up in girls' clothing, but I didn't think the problem with pink extended to shirts made for men or boys.

 

I don't know if I was the only one who said that I didn't care for pink nail polish on boys (or men, for that matter,) but I definitely said that. It takes a certain kind of male to get away with wearing pink nail polish without getting beaten up, so I am very pleased that my ds has never expressed any interest in it. AndI have to be honest -- I wouldn't have dated a man who wore pink nail polish. Pink shirts, fine. Colored nail polish? Nope. I don't find it even remotely attractive or masculine. Obviously, others feel differently, and if they're fine with it, that's all that matters.

[Jen in NY]

In all these discussions about gender identity, it almost never comes up that there are lots of people that are born with undetermined gender, or intersex. Hopefully their parents and/or doctors are willing to put off any elective surgery that 'fixes' gender until the person is old enough to have some input into the outcome. Sometimes the intersex traits are not obvious until puberty... sometimes people don't even know they have intersex traits because they are not outwardly obvious and/or the person doesn't feel the need to question the gender into which they are socialized. Gender is sometimes obvious from birth, but not always. It *really* is a continuum. Some people just really don't fit into our neat little girl/guy categories, no matter how much some segments of society would like them to. And then sexual identity gets layered on top of gender identity - so even more complexity. The Intersex Society of America has lots of good reading if you'd like to learn more.

 

( :) Sorry, OP, if this strays a little far-afield from your original intent. It's just something I think about every time I see one of these threads and thought maybe it was a good opportunity to mention where people can get more info. Thanks for providing the space. :) )

[Joyofsixreboot]

My boys did. They also put on their sisters' dance tutus and boas. My girls pounded with hammers and wore the fake hard hat. Not sure why it matters. I just let them play with whatever was around.

[xixstar]

Since I know a. Pulls grown men that like and wear nail polish, I have nonissue with it.

[ThatHomeschoolDad]

I have never done it and I would never allow that.

I'm not going to actively or passively encourage "girly" behavior in my sons.

It doesn't sit right with me, on an instinctive level so my answer would be No. Never. Nuh-uh.

Fortunately it isn't an issue for us. But if it ever came up:

NO to nail polish

NO to dresses

NO to skirts

NO to tutus

NO to barettes

NO to high-heeled shoes

NO to dressing up and playing "I'm a woman"

and

NO to any other thing that is considered by my American culture overtly "female/girl/women" behavior.

 

 

I have taught my sons that it is okay to cry if that is how you feel--happy, sad, in between, there is nothing wrong with crying. Babies cry, toddlers cry, children cry, teens cry, adults cry--it isn't an age or gender thing. I have been trying to teach my boys the importance of respecting PEOPLE, not their genitals--the person. I have been talking about authority, trust, and respect with them for a couple of years now.

 

 

I'm just wondering about a certain....inconsistency....but perhaps I'm mis-reading.

 

You mention "girly" behavior up front, then have a list of things that are now usually considered to be women's clothing (although you might want to Google history of high heels), and add in overtly female/girl/women behavior, BUT it's ok to cry and people are more than their genitals (I would agree there).

 

So....What constitutes female behavior in American culture, beyond the cliches?  You mentioned crying, but is that the unit of measurement  -- display of emotion?  Is it the same thing when a male pro athlete cries in public, or is that different?  I'm unclear about the gender thing fitting in there.

 

As for imaginative play, in your opinion, what is the long-term effect on a young boy who plays in, say, a tutu, at age 6?   I need help connecting the dots.

 

[OneStepAtATime]

My daughter has always used finger nail polish as an art source, with fingernails frequently being the canvas.  No two nails ever come out the same because, as she puts it, she is not a copyist, she is an artist.  When her little brother saw all the cool pictures she could create, he wanted them too, and she thoroughly enjoyed painting his nails.  When he was little, his friends thought the pictures were really cool, too.  Now that he is 9, although he still loves the beautiful pictures she creates, and is amazed by how detailed they can be on such a small "canvas", he no longer wishes to have his own nails painted...but sometimes he DOES wish he could paint like she can.  

 

DS has never liked the color pink or even purple, but he does like teal, which for some reason can cause issues with the other boys in the neighborhood.  I have no issues with him wearing whatever color he prefers, but I personally do not like pink much.  I prefer blues and blacks and greens.  So do my parents and my brother.

 

DS does have a baby doll, fairly lifelike, that we used to help him potty train when he was 2.  It was recommended that the toddler train the doll as they themselves are learning.  Worked like a charm.  He felt very responsible for the baby and wanted to be a good example.  He trained in 2 days.  Then continued to feel responsible for the baby doll for years, taking care of it when it was "sick", walking it in the stroller, singing and reading to it.  He told me, once he really internalized that it was just a doll, that he would like to continue taking care of the "baby" to hone his daddy skills so he can be a good father when he grows up.  I have no issues with this.

 

In fact, I think it is much better than him thinking that those activities with children are bad choices and inappropriate for a dad.  I like very much that he is considering what type of parent he wants to be and can play act out those scenarios now, while he has an interest (although that interest is definitely waning now).  I did warn him that other boys coming over to play probably wouldn't understand so he might want to put his baby in my room.  (Sister never liked baby dolls and tended to dump them on neighbors if someone gave her one, so putting it in sister's room would probably get him verbally clobbered - well, mostly verbally).

[Wabi Sabi]

You don't see boys/men around where I live wearing nail polish.  I live in a very conservative state/area and like it that way.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. When my ds was a toddler you'd have had no idea that he had blue glittery polish on his toes unless he was barefoot or in sandals.

[umsami]

My 3 year old loves to get into his sister's nail polish….and usually paints his entire foot, not just the nails.  He's also fond of putting on lipstick (lip gloss).

 

It doesn't phase me.  His father is not so comfortable with it, though.

 

His favorite shoes are his sister's old pink crocs too.

 

I remember my now 10 year old telling me when he was around 2 that it was no fair that girls got to paint their toes pretty colors and boys did not.  I said, "you're right…what color do you want your nails?"  We did them blue.

 

[OneStepAtATime]

My 3 year old loves to get into his sister's nail polish….and usually paints his entire foot, not just the nails.  He's also fond of putting on lipstick (lip gloss).

 

It doesn't phase me.  His father is not so comfortable with it, though.

 

His favorite shoes are his sister's old pink crocs too.

 

I remember my now 10 year old telling me when he was around 2 that it was no fair that girls got to paint their toes pretty colors and boys did not.  I said, "you're right…what color do you want your nails?"  We did them blue.

My issue was why boys get to go shirtless in 100 degree wx and I still had to keep mine on...really irked me.  But I was 9 and kind of clueless about societal norms.

[LucyStoner]

Did anyone say that boys and men wearing pink and purple made them gay or feminine? I haven't been reading that closely, so I may have missed it.

 

I got the impression that most people were agreeing that pink shirts were available in both the boys and men's departments and that they would have no problem with males wearing pink.

 

I think there may be some debate over shopping in the girls' department for pink clothing for boys, or boys dressing up in girls' clothing, but I didn't think the problem with pink extended to shirts made for men or boys.

Aside from shirts and maybe swim trunks if you have a boy set on pink you have to hit the "girls side" of the store. After age 6 if you have a boy who wants any bright color at all and doesn't like sport references you often have to hit the girls side of the store. The pink backpack with red and white polka dots my son picked for school was on the girl side of the store for example. As are the pink crocs and fleece jacket he preferred.

 

And yes, at least one person raised the idea that doing anything traditionally seen as female was an indicator of sexuality or gender confusion. And then it got all messed up with gender identity. It got a little confusing at that point. People are naturally going to say hold up and what the what at that sort of remark.

[Amy in NH]

Aside from shirts and maybe swim trunks if you have a boy set on pink you have to hit the "girls side" of the store. After age 6 if you have a boy who wants any bright color at all and doesn't like sport references you often have to hit the girls side of the store. The pink backpack with red and white polka dots my son picked for school was on the girl side of the store for example. As are the pink crocs and fleece jacket he preferred.

 

And yes, at least one person raised the idea that doing anything traditionally seen as female was an indicator of sexuality or gender confusion. And then it got all messed up with gender identity. It got a little confusing at that point. People are naturally going to say hold up and what the what at that sort of remark.

 

Yeah.  That's a pain!  It also stinks that if I want to find red, black, or navy-blue shorts for my girly-girl dd to wear under her dresses I have to shop in the boys' department.  And then the cut is wrong (but it's always wrong with skinny kids).

 

Super-skinny teen boys sometimes have better luck finding pants that actually fit in the junior girls department...  and sometimes they want tight pink pants.

[umsami]

My Dad used wear a pink button down oxford shirt a lot.  He's a doctor, and it turned out the day they were filming a commercial at his hospital, he was wearing it.  My friend used to joke that it was my Dad's pink lab coat, as he never wore one.  He also wore yellow shirts as well. My husband looks super handsome in this purple oxford I bought him from Land's End when we were first married.   I don't think any of them look  feminine and  they were easily available, but it's rare for me to see those colors in the boys' section.  Usually for oxfords, they can have white or blue.

 

We tell the boys that Grandpa's favorite shirt was pink, so it's OK to like pink.  

[Aura]

Just a few thoughts....

 

1---Did you know that pink was originally considered a boy's color? I think this was back in medieval times or maybe Victorian, I can't remember, but it was a long time ago. Anyway, red was considered masculine. After men's clothes were dyed red, the resulting diluted dye was used for babies and boys clothes, which came out pink. Blue, however, was considered more feminine and used for girls and women's things. Thus, quite a long time ago, boys were dressed in pink and girls were dressed in blue. I have no idea when or why the switch was made.

 

(And this was learned a long time ago, and I don't remember where, so if you want verification, you'll have to look it up yourself. Sorry.)

 

2---Pink and purple are certainly not gay colors. But I do know some people (like my brother) that think that boys should NEVER wear anything pink. I just shake my head at that, because there is no way I'm going to convince them/him otherwise. These types of views are more prevalent in certain societal or religious circles and areas of the country than others, too.

 

3---Yes, I do believe that there are gender-specific tendencies, but those are always generalized. GENERALLY speaking, boys have a greater tendency to play-fighting and have actively aggressive behavior while girls are more likely to play co-operatively (work together toward a common goal--like playing house versus cowboys & Indians) and have passively aggressive behavior. Of course, this is in a very broad sense, and while the majority of boys and girls may do this, there are still LOTS that do not. 

 

When you add in puberty and hormones, there is a more pronounced difference in gender-specific tendencies.

 

As kids get older, they see what's reflected in their culture and they (usually) want to fit in, so they identify with others like themselves and try to make that happen, which results in greater gender-specific tendencies. But these are not inherent in the child. So you have both cultural pressure and inherent tendencies which show up in a child.

 

4---As a parent, I don't want my child feeling the need that they MUST conform to the present culture. So, I think it's healthy to allow young children to experiment and play around with lots of things, within reason, of course. And since I'm the parent, I get to be the one who draws that line and says what's "within reason."

 

5---I don't think it's healthy when a child pushes toward something that denies who they are. For instance, when a boy wants to literally be a girl and takes steps to make it happen, I wonder why they can't accept themselves for who they are. It's possible that there's some biological/health reason for this, but I would wonder why they could not accept themselves for who they are. (And yes, I'm directly referencing the transgender issue. As someone mentioned, there is a difference between being gay and being transgender.) So if my child showed strong tendencies toward wanting to be something they aren't, I'd definitely be investigating what's behind that.

 

6---I don't think it's healthy to pretend that girls and boys are the same. They're not. But acknowledging there's a difference does NOT mean that one gender is better than the other. And the biggest differences don't show up till puberty. Still, because there are so many people that fall outside the "norm," we should all be careful about pushing those generalities on individuals. (For instance, and I'm just using this as an example, say 70% of boys prefer boyish activities, that still leaves 30% that don't, so that's a lot of boys that don't fall in the "norm.")

[umsami]

Just a few thoughts....

 

1---Did you know that pink was originally considered a boy's color? I think this was back in medieval times or maybe Victorian, I can't remember, but it was a long time ago. Anyway, red was considered masculine. After men's clothes were dyed red, the resulting diluted dye was used for babies and boys clothes, which came out pink. Blue, however, was considered more feminine and used for girls and women's things. Thus, quite a long time ago, boys were dressed in pink and girls were dressed in blue. I have no idea when or why the switch was made.

 

(And this was learned a long time ago, and I don't remember where, so if you want verification, you'll have to look it up yourself. Sorry.)

 

 

 

I remember reading an article like that in the Atlantic.  http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/04/fdr-grew-up-in-a-dress-it-wasnt-always-blue-for-boys-and-pink-for-girls/237299/

[Amy in NH]

Just a few thoughts....

 

5---I don't think it's healthy when a child pushes toward something that denies who they are. For instance, when a boy wants to literally be a girl and takes steps to make it happen, I wonder why they can't accept themselves for who they are. It's possible that there's some biological/health reason for this, but I would wonder why they could not accept themselves for who they are. (And yes, I'm directly referencing the transgender issue. As someone mentioned, there is a difference between being gay and being transgender.) So if my child showed strong tendencies toward wanting to be something they aren't, I'd definitely be investigating what's behind that.

 

 

 

Because, as someone pointed out above, gender is a spectrum.  What you see on the outside is not always the same as what's on the inside.  Trying to force someone to be something they aren't just because of their outward appearance isn't really healthy either, is it?

[Aura]

Because, as someone pointed out above, gender is a spectrum.  What you see on the outside is not always the same as what's on the inside.  Trying to force someone to be something they aren't just because of their outward appearance isn't really healthy either, is it?

 

Gender isn't about outward appearances, though. And for nearly all people, it isn't a spectrum. Everyone is different, with different physiological make-ups and different personalities, but still, for most people, you're either male or female. You're not mostly male or mostly female. 

 

Those cases where someone is not specifically male or female are rare. If a person who is biologically one gender wants to change themselves to another gender, then most likely, there are other issues at play.  I would want to really understand why someone, especially a minor, would want to do that. Either way, the more I would know about the situation means that more I could support and help the child in the direction that's best for him/her.

[LucyStoner]

Aura- I mostly agree with your 6 point post. But having a trans brother and being not very feminine myself I have to disagree with point #5. It's hard to explain but seeing it up close and personal I know that my brother being born when he could transition is why he is a functional person today. I can't really sum it up any other way. As a girl he was unhappy, depressed, directionless and a danger to himself. As he started to transition he started to live and think about his future. He now has a spouse and 2 beautiful kids and is a super mega PTA volunteer. Is his life perfect? No but there was no more successful of a treatment for him than just being allowed to live how he felt and not how his body looked. For him struggling against who he was trying and failing to conform to feminine norms. He just didn't have it in him. OTOH, no matter how sporty and masculine I could be I always still felt like a girl. There was no question. Just like for him there was no question something was really wrong from a very young age. I agree people shouldn't struggle against who they are but for some who they are is not what they look like externally.

[Amy in NH]

Gender isn't about outward appearances, though. And for nearly all people, it isn't a spectrum. Everyone is different, with different physiological make-ups and different personalities, but still, for most people, you're either male or female. You're not mostly male or mostly female. 

 

Those cases where someone is not specifically male or female are rare. If a person who is biologically one gender wants to change themselves to another gender, then most likely, there are other issues at play.  I would want to really understand why someone, especially a minor, would want to do that. Either way, the more I would know about the situation means that more I could support and help the child in the direction that's best for him/her.

 

We'll just have to disagree about that.

 

Do you know anyone trans?  Anyone close to you?  Someone with friends who are also trans? 

And had in-depth discussions about it?

[Aura]

What I'm trying to say is that choosing to reject someone's gender can be the indication of other things, like abuse, and I would want to know if there was something else going on. I would not just assume that my son was born wanting to be a girl, or vice versa. That is totally different to me than kids playing with things traditionally associated with the opposite gender.

 

Boys playing with dolls and girls playing with swords are pretty common and perfectly natural, IMO. But a child NOT wanting to be a boy, when he is a boy, can be a warning sign, so I would treat it completely different. And unfortunately, it seems that abuse is more statistically likely than actually being born transgender. That's all.

 

I guess it's like when a kids gets the sniffles. All kids gets sniffles. No biggie. You treat it. You move one. But a 104 degree temp could be the same sniffles manifested differently in a particular child....or it could be the sign of something more serious. So I would definitely be watching and caring for the kid with the high fever differently than the one with just the sniffles. *Sigh* It's just a comparison...please, don't take it too literally. I'm not saying that kids who are born transgender are sick. I'm just saying it merits a different reaction in me as a parent.

[Amber in SJ]

My ds 9, has three older sisters.  I don't paint anyone's' nails.  I don't paint my nails.  Does this mean there are only naked nails in my house?  No way!  There are baskets of nail polish in their bathroom in every shade of the rainbow.  The girls paint their own nails and each other's nails.  Ds has never asked to have his nails painted.  Ds has had pink dress shirts and polo shirts because they look good on him.  His dress up clothes include jedi robes, ninja costumes and the like.  He has never been interested in wearing the princess dresses that fill the bins of his sisters.  Any capes, now, are up for grabs, no matter the color. 

 

Amber in SJ