Impish Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 While I fully support a woman nursing, and understand that there are health benefits to extended nursing, the idea of LEGISLATING it, and making it mandatory horrifies me, and reminds me of The Handmaid's Tale. http://www.yummymummyclub.ca/blogs/mummy-buzz/20140202/breastfeeding-mandatory-by-law-in-uae?s=FB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 That is in the UAE, there are many laws there that are objectionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairfarmhand Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 There are some countries that have similar laws because their water supply is just not that great. I have fewer reservations in those situations. I would think the water in the UAE would be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 This is the same country where a journalist reported being raped, and was given jail time instead because she consumed alcohol and engaging in sex outside marriage. The are not the worst country in the world for women, by far. But it's not a place I'd choose to live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Yell Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (didn;t read the article) I would much rather see laws restricting the advertising/promotion of formula, and maybe even mandatory breastfeeding classes (pre-natal) with (ideally, free) access to lactation consultants- basically, anything that made breasfeeding easier. Basically, more support so more women will choose to begin or continue breastfeeding. Never making it mandatory- there are circumstances where that would be a very bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 like saying breastfeeding classes should be mandatory? Yeah. I'd have been seriously ticked to have to go to those classes considering I needed surgery to be able to breastfeed. I wasn't happy I had to use a bottle, but not unhappy enough to undergo surgery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrookValley. Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 A baby's rights do not ever outweigh a mother's right to bodily autonomy. Education and support, and access to flexible working arrangements increase breastfeeding rates, not legislation. I agree. Let's make it easier to breastfeed and, you know, actually support women. That is in the UAE, there are many laws there that are objectionable. And there's this, too. I don't think we have to worry about anyone trying to legislate breastfeeding in the U.S. I'm pretty crunchy...extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping, babywearing, cloth diapers...you know, the usual. However, after two kids, I've had to accept the fact that I will never have the breastmilk supply to keep up with demand. My second has been supplemented with formula. It's only a bottle or two per day, but it devastated me to the point that I'm downright ashamed of it. This is actually my first "confession" of this fact; I've told no one, with the exception of my husband, of course. There's really no reason for me to feel this way--there's no one in my life I would tell that wouldn't be understanding and supportive--but I feel that way all the same. My point in explaining all this is that there is no good reason to push breastfeeding in ways that would just tear women down. There are a lot of great ways to support breastfeeding while empowering women. Taking away choice is never going to be one of those ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaVT Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I agree. Let's make it easier to breastfeed and, you know, actually support women. And there's this, too. I don't think we have to worry about anyone trying to legislate breastfeeding in the U.S. I'm pretty crunchy...extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping, babywearing, cloth diapers...you know, the usual. However, after two kids, I've had to accept the fact that I will never have the breastmilk supply to keep up with demand. My second has been supplemented with formula. It's only a bottle or two per day, but it devastated me to the point that I'm downright ashamed of it. This is actually my first "confession" of this fact; I've told no one, with the exception of my husband, of course. There's really no reason for me to feel this way--there's no one in my life I would tell that wouldn't be understanding and supportive--but I feel that way all the same. My point in explaining all this is that there is no good reason to push breastfeeding in ways that would just tear women down. There are a lot of great ways to support breastfeeding while empowering women. Taking away choice is never going to be one of those ways. *hugs* I know how you feel. It never occurred to me that I wouldn't be able to breast feed ds. I was breast fed as a baby and planned on breast feeding. In addition to the health benefits, it's less expensive (free!) and more convenient than formula feeding. I never made enough milk to feed my kid. I was seeing a lactation consultant daily and ds kept losing weight. Pumping didn't work, nothing. So finally when he was about 2 weeks, she told me to supplement with formula and seeing him suck down that bottle had me in tears. Of course most things made me cry right after having him, but I felt so bad that I couldn't give him what he needed. And it was embarrassing. I got lots of "oh you're giving him a bottle" looks and questions. He thrived on formula, I stopped feeling like such a complete failure and DH was able to help out with night feedings which was nice. I would have bawled through mandatory breast feeding classes after what I went through! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (didn;t read the article) I would much rather see laws restricting the advertising/promotion of formula, and maybe even mandatory breastfeeding classes (pre-natal) with (ideally, free) access to lactation consultants- basically, anything that made breasfeeding easier. Basically, more support so more women will choose to begin or continue breastfeeding. Never making it mandatory- there are circumstances where that would be a very bad idea. I wouldn't agree with any mandatory classes for mothers. I think there should be mandatory classes for nurses, doctors, WIC employees, and others who may be in a position to offer better counselling. IME some of the worst breastfeeding advice I have seen has been from doctors and nurses. I would agree with more restrictions on promotion of formula. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I find a lot of laws over there horrific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camelfeet Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I live in the UAE. The breastfeeding "law" isn't a law yet. It needs to be put before the Sheikh to become law. There is local backlash against it, so there is the possibility that he will not pass it. Its largely thought of as being unenforceable as well. You can't nurse uncovered in public here, so how would anyone know if a woman was nursing or bottle feeding? The real risk IMO is vindictive husbands. There are car seat laws here too, but the number of kids hanging out sun roofs and chilling with multiple siblings in the passenger seat is crazy. It, like the lactation law, just wouldn't be enforced. On the plus side, the breastfeeding bit is a small part of the country's first Child Rights law and would allow for the set up of a CPS type agency. Its a step forward, though parts are completely misguided. This is the same country where a journalist reported being raped, and was given jail time instead because she consumed alcohol and engaging in sex outside marriage.The are not the worst country in the world for women, by far. But it's not a place I'd choose to live. Unfortunately, this woman was given bad advice by her employer. After going to police and telling them about a rape, she then changed her statement on the advice of her employer saying the sex was consensual. When that turned into her being charged with sex outside of marriage, she went back to her original rape claim. I'm not sure there is a country in the world that would convict a person of rape with no physical evidence and a victim that went back and forth on consent. So, both she and the man she accused of rape ended up in jail for a few months for illegal sex and drinking and were deported. You don't get tossed in jail here for being raped, and you don't get tossed in jail for being raped even if they can't convict your rapist. You do get tossed in jail for admitting to illegal consensual sex and illegal alcohol consumption. It was a really terrible situation, and assuming she was raped I hope she finds closure and healing in her own country. :( The UAE isn't for everyone. But my lifestyle here is mostly the same as in Canada. I'm not oppressed. It is safe here, I can walk home alone late at night and not be afraid, I leave my doors unlocked and not worry about someone robbing me. I can do everything I want to do. I am happy to raise my daughters here and I don't want to leave anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tmhearn Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 As someone who has nursed for almost 10 years straight, and tandem nursed for 4 and a 1/2 of those years, and nursed well beyond the 2 year mark... I find that legislation horrific. It was my choice to nurse. It should be every woman's choice to make. The worst part for me, was the fact that a wet-nurse will be provided if you can't nurse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 This is the UAE. Sadly they have many worse human rights violations that this. Almost certainly the wet nurses they will provide will be enslaved young women from Shri Lanka forced to starve their own babies. I find the UAE and their slave labor denial beyond disgusting. I saw too many victims of it when I did missions work in Nepal. People sent home without pay after being forced to work for years. People sent home missing limbs. One of the young men I knew is "missing" in the UAE at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FO4UR Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Unbelievable! I foresee a lot of problems with trying to legislate nursing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunnyDays Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 That's horrifying. Encouragement is great, but no woman should ever be shamed, let alone in violation of the law, for being unable to breast feed.... Or even (gasp!) choosing not to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I live in the UAE. The breastfeeding "law" isn't a law yet. It needs to be put before the Sheikh to become law. There is local backlash against it, so there is the possibility that he will not pass it. Its largely thought of as being unenforceable as well. You can't nurse uncovered in public here, so how would anyone know if a woman was nursing or bottle feeding? The real risk IMO is vindictive husbands. There are car seat laws here too, but the number of kids hanging out sun roofs and chilling with multiple siblings in the passenger seat is crazy. It, like the lactation law, just wouldn't be enforced. On the plus side, the breastfeeding bit is a small part of the country's first Child Rights law and would allow for the set up of a CPS type agency. Its a step forward, though parts are completely misguided. Unfortunately, this woman was given bad advice by her employer. After going to police and telling them about a rape, she then changed her statement on the advice of her employer saying the sex was consensual. When that turned into her being charged with sex outside of marriage, she went back to her original rape claim. I'm not sure there is a country in the world that would convict a person of rape with no physical evidence and a victim that went back and forth on consent. So, both she and the man she accused of rape ended up in jail for a few months for illegal sex and drinking and were deported. You don't get tossed in jail here for being raped, and you don't get tossed in jail for being raped even if they can't convict your rapist. You do get tossed in jail for admitting to illegal consensual sex and illegal alcohol consumption. It was a really terrible situation, and assuming she was raped I hope she finds closure and healing in her own country. :( The UAE isn't for everyone. But my lifestyle here is mostly the same as in Canada. I'm not oppressed. It is safe here, I can walk home alone late at night and not be afraid, I leave my doors unlocked and not worry about someone robbing me. I can do everything I want to do. I am happy to raise my daughters here and I don't want to leave anytime soon. Thank you so much for sharing your perspective and experiences. So much of what people know of another part of the world is strictly through the news media and as someone who worked in that medium for many years, I know how terribly inaccurate and one sided reports can and usually are. It is nice to read a response from someone living in the area of the world that may pass this law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lil' maids in a row Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Breastfeeding was such a terrible experience for me I can't imagine being forced to continue. What a terrible law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 (didn;t read the article) I would much rather see laws restricting the advertising/promotion of formula, and maybe even mandatory breastfeeding classes (pre-natal) with (ideally, free) access to lactation consultants- basically, anything that made breasfeeding easier. Basically, more support so more women will choose to begin or continue breastfeeding. Never making it mandatory- there are circumstances where that would be a very bad idea. I wouldn't agree with any mandatory classes for mothers. I think there should be mandatory classes for nurses, doctors, WIC employees, and others who may be in a position to offer better counselling. IME some of the worst breastfeeding advice I have seen has been from doctors and nurses. I would agree with more restrictions on promotion of formula. I have a real problem with restricting the promotion of formula, and I have an even bigger problem with the idea of mandatory breastfeeding classes. Contrary to what many people here seem to believe, bottle-feeding a baby is not a crime. No one should ever feel pressured to breastfeed their child, just as no one should feel pressured to bottle-feed. The judgmentalism on this issue is always way over the top on this forum. (I'm not picking on the people I quoted -- I'm speaking generally, not specifically to them, because both of their posts were actually very moderate compared with comments I've read on other similar threads in the past.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Uh yeah how many people decided to bottle feed because of a formula commercial they saw or a coupon they got in the mail? That sure the hell didn't factor into my decision. Tell the truth. It was all about the coupons, wasn't it? :D I'll bet a lot of women breastfeed solely because they can't afford to buy all that formula. ;) I still remember how pricey it was, and my ds is a teenager now! :svengo: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Ugh...worst thing was K was put on some special formula (reflux, colic, etc). It cost $10 a day. We spent more on feeding our baby than ourselves. Was it Nutramigen? I still remember the smell of that stuff! :ack2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abba12 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I find camelfeets response fascinating. One of the problems of pushing breastfeeding support as far as some communities are trying to is it actually makes it harder for some women. The LCs refusal to even acknowledge nipple shields as a safe, viable option that will not destroy my supply resulted in DD1 moving to formula after only 2 weeks. I managed 6 weeks with DD2 (all in incredible pain, due to a number of reasons, not just the normal starting to breastfed pain) before the LCs insistence that her suck must be weird because there's no other reason she wouldn't be getting enough milk. DD2 refused me after only two days of a supplement bottle (no confusion, but I don't let down properly, the bottle was just plain easier for her) and the speech therapist I was sent to said her suck was perfect. Breast is best, but formula isn't evil. Do you realize how hard breastfeeders have made getting information about formula? When I asked these oh so concerned LCs which formula was safest, they said "I don't know, just grab one". So if I can't breastfed, then what I feed baby no longer matters? note, I live in australia. When the baby is born this year, it will not be breastfed, through my own research without the help of any professionals I have come to the conclusion I am physically and mentally unable to breastfeed. I already have to sit through mandatory 'conversations' with the midwife about why breast is best and her guilt trips about how she is sure, with the right LC, that I am capable of it, is bad enough. Knowing the judgment I will get from strangers makes me feel ill (I hide in the breastfeeding booths of the parents room when I bottle feed my infants). Mandatory classes would be like rubbing salt in the wounds. I desperately wanted to breastfeed. I don't think any further legislation is needed, or acceptable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I have a real problem with restricting the promotion of formula, and I have an even bigger problem with the idea of mandatory breastfeeding classes. Contrary to what many people here seem to believe, bottle-feeding a baby is not a crime. No one should ever feel pressured to breastfeed their child, just as no one should feel pressured to bottle-feed. The judgmentalism on this issue is always way over the top on this forum. (I'm not picking on the people I quoted -- I'm speaking generally, not specifically to them, because both of their posts were actually very moderate compared with comments I've read on other similar threads in the past.) No one should feel pressured about anything. But breastfeeding is better than bottlefeeding. And it's really hard to do, for many people. Reminding people that the difficulties are worth it is not a horrible woman-hating thing to do. In my opinion. It's not about judging people who can't, or don't want to, breastfeed. Like I said, no one should feel pressured or, worse, shamed about how she feeds her baby. I just find it a little sad that being supportive about breastfeeding is seen as contributing to the mommy wars. It's such a no-win situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaceyinLA Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 My problem with formula promotion is that it does undermine a woman's confidence when trying to establish a milk supply (I'm sorry but free sample cases in the mail to pregnant women and cases to bring home from the hospital don't inspire confidence in a new mom who may be unaware that babies need to nurse a LOT in the beginning). I also have issues with the way formula was/is promoted in third world countries where families are given "free" formula, then, when it runs out, they can't afford to continue, they dilute it way too much with tainted water and wind up with malnourished babies. That scenario is criminal. Those women could provide a nutritionally superior food for their babies without having to compromise their tiny food allowances to afford the formula they can't even mix properly. That said, education is definitely the key. Health care providers generally have zero clue how to truly support a nursing mom, and often give terrible information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 My problem with formula promotion is that it does undermine a woman's confidence when trying to establish a milk supply (I'm sorry but free sample cases in the mail to pregnant women and cases to bring home from the hospital don't inspire confidence in a new mom who may be unaware that babies need to nurse a LOT in the beginning). I don't see how there is any correlation between giving a new mom some formula and "undermining her confidence" in breastfeeding. I think women deserve a little more credit than that. If a woman is so incredibly influenced by a few cans of free formula that she decides to stop breastfeeding, I would guess she wasn't too serious about it to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I have a real problem with restricting the promotion of formula, and I have an even bigger problem with the idea of mandatory breastfeeding classes. Contrary to what many people here seem to believe, bottle-feeding a baby is not a crime. No one should ever feel pressured to breastfeed their child, just as no one should feel pressured to bottle-feed. The judgmentalism on this issue is always way over the top on this forum. (I'm not picking on the people I quoted -- I'm speaking generally, not specifically to them, because both of their posts were actually very moderate compared with comments I've read on other similar threads in the past.) I disagree. Research has shown that the promotion of formula undermines breastfeeding. Whether or not it played a part in your decision is anecdotal. http://www.unicef.org.uk/BabyFriendly/News-and-Research/Research/Marketing-and-the-Code/Legal-loophole-allows-banned-formula-advertising-to-mothers/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2443254/ http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/birt.12044/abstract It is not judgemental to take issue with the very aggressive and in some cases ILLEGAL manner in which formula is marketed. Lack of adequate water supply does not slow formula producers in trying to sell their product, this results in the death of infants. http://www.unicef.org/nutrition/index_24824.html Facts are facts, they are not judgmental. If you take issue with that you are taking issue with the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaceyinLA Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I don't see how there is any correlation between giving a new mom some formula and "undermining her confidence" in breastfeeding. I think women deserve a little more credit than that. If a woman is so incredibly influenced by a few cans of free formula that she decides to stop breastfeeding, I would guess she wasn't too serious about it to begin with. I disagree. If a woman hasn't had proper education, and therefore believes that because her baby wants to nurse often it must be starving, the "handy" free formula is an easy go-to, and since most babies would drink it whether really hungry or not, the mom would most likely be tempted to believe she wasn't producing enough. Giving the formula would in turn make her milk supply less likely to come in properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Horrific? Really? With all the abuses women face around the world (including in this country), I find horrific a bit much. FGM, horrific. Child marriages, rapes, incest? Definitely horrific. The rate of child abuse in many countries including our own? Horrific. The fact that 10,000 kids are killed or injured in the US each and every year from guns? Horrific. Perhaps because it's a Muslim country, one naturally assumes the worst? Anyway, so, being Muslim, I've seen a lot on this article in many different papers. I can say that the State will provide a wet nurse for women who cannot nurse. So, that's an aspect that's not being reported--and one that i think is really positive. Of course, it harkens back to the Prophet's life…but it has other implications in Muslim society (which may be why the State is providing one..for records.) Anybody nursed by the same woman is viewed as a milk sibling, so cannot marry. Similarly, a woman would not need to cover in front of her "milk" children. Still, the whole mandated law thing is troubling, especially the "power" given to the husband to sue the wive. I love the idea of the state offering wet nurses. I love the idea of more people breastfeeding. I don't love the idea of punishing women who choose not to. I wish they had approached this in a different way…by offering lactation consultants, and wet nurses…but as this is the UAE, there may also be a class thing at play. (Just as wealthy women here used to feel nursing was beneath them.) I think it will be interesting to see what research comes forth out of the UAE if this really goes forward. I'd also love to know the lactation rates before the law, as among most Muslims I know, breastfeeding and extended nursing is the norm. Was there such a low rate that extreme measures were thought necessary? Edited…did a quick google search…yup, high as expected, but drop after 4 months. "Interestingly, he notes, breastfeeding rates at birth in the UAE range from an impressive 80 to 95 percent, but drop to 20 percent after four months. (U.S. women, by comparison, start out with similar rates, dropping down to 49 percent at six months.) The timing of the drop coincides with when many women return to work. Also in the UAE, he says, “Breastfeeding in public is frowned upon there, frankly, like it is here.†At the same time—even though the UAE has been criticized for not going far enough with laws to protect women (marital rape is not recognized, for example)—there is legislation allowing women to take time out of their workdays to breastfeed. And, notes an American expat in Abu Dhabi and nursing mom to a 2-and-a-half year old (who wishes to remain anonymous due to being a public figure), “There are way more ‘breastfeeding rooms’ available here than in the U.S., every mall has one, and they are often really comfortable. Suffice it to say,†she tells Yahoo Shine, “it's a breastfeeding-friendly country.â€" http://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-living/breastfeeding-now-mandatory-in-united-arab-emirates--does-the-law-go-too-far-205738039.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abba12 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Uh yeah how many people decided to bottle feed because of a formula commercial they saw or a coupon they got in the mail? That sure the hell didn't factor into my decision. Yep, that tin of formula the evil, inconsiderate church lady gave me 'for emergencies' is totally what induced me to stop breastfeeding. I really wish it was easier to see and research what's available. Without advertising, I had almost no basis with which to choose a formula and I remember being so scared I'd gotten a 'bad' one, but all these people who were so worried my baby couldn't have breastmilk didn't seem to care at all the difference between one formula and another. I couldn't understand it. And then there was the massive formula shortage a year or so ago in australia, due to the chinese buying and exporting it all. That was really scary. My baby had to switch formulas because hers became completely inaccessible, but the new one gave her pains. But nothing ever came of it, no investigation or concerns from the public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I don't see how there is any correlation between giving a new mom some formula and "undermining her confidence" in breastfeeding. I think women deserve a little more credit than that. If a woman is so incredibly influenced by a few cans of free formula that she decides to stop breastfeeding, I would guess she wasn't too serious about it to begin with. You cannot correlate your own education, experiences, and influences and then apply them to all women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I disagree. Research has shown that the promotion of formula undermines breastfeeding. Whether or not it played a part in your decision is anecdotal. http://www.unicef.org.uk/BabyFriendly/News-and-Research/Research/Marketing-and-the-Code/Legal-loophole-allows-banned-formula-advertising-to-mothers/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2443254/ http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/birt.12044/abstract It is not judgemental to take issue with the very aggressive and in some cases ILLEGAL manner in which formula is marketed. Lack of adequate water supply does not slow formula producers in trying to sell their product, this results in the death of infants. http://www.unicef.org/nutrition/index_24824.html I have a problem with people finding it judgmental to take issue with formula producers for killing infants. Wow. Overly dramatic much? I'm not sure how the topic of this thread has turned into Evil Formula Manufacturers Killing Babies, but I guess I'm not entirely surprised. These breastfeeding threads always get heated, and since you actually took the time to do online research and post links, this is clearly a hot-button issue for you. Clearly, we will have to disagree on whether or not formula manufacturers should be able to promote their products. It's not worth arguing about it, because I honestly don't care enough about it to get into a big debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Wow. Overly dramatic much? I'm not sure how the topic of this thread has turned into Evil Formula Manufacturers Killing Babies, but I guess I'm not entirely surprised. These breastfeeding threads always get heated, and since you actually took the time to do online research and post links, this is clearly a hot-button issue for you. Clearly, we will have to disagree on whether or not formula manufacturers should be able to promote their products. It's not worth arguing about it, because I honestly don't care enough about it to get into a big debate. No? Did you read the link? It is not overdramatic in the slightest. It is 100% true. I did specifically state that was in countries with inadequate water. What do you think happens when infants drink water that is not properly sanitized? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 You cannot correlate your own education, experiences, and influence and then apply them to all women. I am most certainly free to express my opinions. I never said anything about "all women." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I disagree. If a woman hasn't had proper education, and therefore believes that because her baby wants to nurse often it must be starving, the "handy" free formula is an easy go-to, and since most babies would drink it whether really hungry or not, the mom would most likely be tempted to believe she wasn't producing enough. Giving the formula would in turn make her milk supply less likely to come in properly. Oh, OK -- now I understand what you meant. I completely misunderstood your other post. :blush: Thanks for clarifying, Stacey! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 It was the other one. I know that is so specific. LOL I can't remember the name. You'd think I'd never forget it, but that was about 12 years ago. Apparently, great minds think alike, because I know exactly which one you mean -- and I can't think of the name, either! :D I remember that I tried "the other one" (as it is now officially known,) and it didn't agree with my ds at all, so we switched to the Nutramigen. (I'm probably spelling that wrong.) I thought it was absolutely disgusting, but ds loved the stuff and it sure seemed to work well for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I can't recall the last time I saw advertisements for formula. I suppose one sees it in parenting magazines (that I only flipped through at the Doctor's office). I went to the formula sites looking for coupons. It was not the other way around. I haven't seen any, either. The last ones I remember seeing on TV were back when ds was little, and they were for Carnation formula. I remember the ads because the baby looked completely fake, like some sort of weird computer-generated baby or something, and I thought it was kind of creepy. Of course, now someone will post that their kid was the Carnation baby and I will feel like a complete idiot for mentioning it. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I had my dds 14 and 11 years ago and was never given any formula to take home. I actually had nurses in both hospitals, different hospitals and different states, become upset with me for not electing to have surgery so I could breastfeed. I always hear about these hospitals sending home formula, coupons, gift bags, etc. and all I think is that I wish I had been at one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 We first tried the Nutramigen. Smelled like cat puke or something. That was a bit less expensive because they had it in powder form. The other one was only available premixed in cans. I want to say something like alimentum or isomil or gee I dunno. Yup. That was the smell! I never tried the Nutramigen powder, because it seemed like too much trouble, so we just bought the cans. Alimentum was the name -- I never would have thought of it until you mentioned it! If I remember correctly, I think the Isomil was the more common formula and the Alimentum and the Nutramigen were the pricier ones. The Isomil went on sale a lot, but the Alimentum and Nutramigen were always full price and you could never find a coupon to save your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I had my dds 14 and 11 years ago and was never given any formula to take home. I actually had nurses in both hospitals, different hospitals and different states, become upset with me for not electing to have surgery so I could breastfeed. I always hear about these hospitals sending home formula, coupons, gift bags, etc. and all I think is that I wish I had been at one of them. We got cute insulated diaper bags and insulated bags for bottles or baby food jars, but no formula or coupons. I have never heard of hospitals giving out free formula, but apparently it happens. I didn't feel any pressure to breastfeed, but after I had ds, some sort of lactation expert came in to talk with me in my hospital room to let me know that if I decided to give it a try, she would be happy to help me out and to give me any instruction or information I needed. She was very nice and seemed to know her stuff, but she said that while she encouraged women to try breastfeeding, she felt that each woman would make the best choice for herself, so she didn't pressure anyone. I thought she had the perfect attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I don't necessarily agree with the law, but I wouldn't call it "horrific." I think there are a LOT of factors going into this that your average Westerner is pretty unaware of. I do agree with baby friendly initiatives in hospitals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I don't necessarily agree with the law, but I wouldn't call it "horrific." I think there are a LOT of factors going into this that your average Westerner is pretty unaware of. I do agree with baby friendly initiatives in hospitals. Yeah, but if you're starting a new thread and you want a lot of people to read it, you can't very well title it, "I find this somewhat unpleasant," can you? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Yeah, but if you're starting a new thread and you want a lot of people to read it, you can't very well title it, "I find this somewhat unpleasant," can you? ;) Try it and see how many views you get, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Try it and see how many views you get, lol. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 "this is like a wrinkle in my sock" :lol: I would open that thread!!! Clearly, I need to get out more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Condessa Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 So, a mom having trouble breast feeding would have to have some outside figure do some kind of assessment and agree that she couldn't breast feed well enough before being allowed to try something else? What about babies that are borderline? With the baby that is growing, but gradually falling farther behind the growth curve, are you not allowed to supplement? What about babies that can't nurse properly? And then they assign a wet nurse. Does the wet nurse move into your house? What if you don't want some stranger living in your home? Do they pay the rent for her to live nearby? Do you just have to accept that your baby is going to be eating whatever this stranger chooses to put into her body, or are they going to legislate that, too? What about babies that self-wean? If you are legally mandated to nurse until age two, how exactly are you supposed to prove that your kid just didn't want it anymore? What about kids close together? Are you legally required to tandem nurse? Or to switch your 20 mo. old to a wet nurse, rather than let a kid who may be walking and talking drink milk from a cup? Geez, what a nightmare. I'm all for breast feeding when you can, but this law is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meriwether Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I got one or two small containers of formula at the hospital with some of mine. I saved them and mixed the formula with the rice cereal to make it creamer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Social pressure is a powerful and subtle thing. Therefore (1) it is best used sparingly, and (2) small cues are often powerful. With breast feeding, women will often do "what's normal" unless they have a reason not to. I know that's hard for those of us with well trained minds to get, because (I think) by-and-large, we tend to think, research, and have actual reasons for the choices we make in parenting. We aren't always just doing what's normal. However, for the rest of the population, it's important to take note of what's being projected as "normal" expectation, and to question how to make the "best choice" (nutritionally, not morally) into the "normal choice" in our society. (Sending home formula -- if that still happens -- is a message that bottle feeding is the normal choice. Lots of people get that message from that action.) Making it normal is enough. That alone will dictate a lot of changes in habits and assumptions. Making it a high-pressure medical message, shame-inducing socially, or a legal issue... That puts way too much power and control behind this issue. It's a personal decision, not one to be dictated to anyone. Making laws that breast feeding is mandatory is just crazy in my opinion. Limiting marketing if formula to shift the perception of "normal" towards breast feeding I think is fair. One step is requiring formula companies to disclose that "breast is best" -- and there are other ways to limit marketing without making the substance seem like some sort of dangerous contraband. It's not. Often it's a very good and reasonable option... Just, second choice to the breast, if both options are available and workable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 The LCs refusal to even acknowledge nipple shields as a safe, viable option that will not destroy my supply resulted in DD1 moving to formula after only 2 weeks. This. I used a shield for TWO YEARS!! Sometimes I think the breastfeeding groups don't think through the real world issues that women face when breastfeeding is not happening in the most ideal way. I still say that breastfeeding was the HARDEST thing I have ever done. With DD it was two years because I was in school and had the freedom and time and emotional energy to devote to the struggle. And it was a struggle. With DS it was three months...I was working and no longer had the ability to focus everything on making breastfeeding work. Just couldn't do it and remain a somewhat sane and happy person. Bottom line, it should be a choice. That choice should be fully supported by the people around the mother and baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 (didn;t read the article) I would much rather see laws restricting the advertising/promotion of formula, and maybe even mandatory breastfeeding classes (pre-natal) with (ideally, free) access to lactation consultants- basically, anything that made breasfeeding easier. Basically, more support so more women will choose to begin or continue breastfeeding. Never making it mandatory- there are circumstances where that would be a very bad idea. And for those women on medications that make breastfeeding unsafe, will the classes serve as an opportunity for public shaming, or just a monumental waste of time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomtoCandJ Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 I have to use a shield, inverted n!pples. I think women who are able to should TRY to breastfeed but not feel guilty if they feel its not for them. When I had dd2 I was told by the hospital that they no longer give out the diaper bags due to some stupid propaganda law (I do have formula that was sent as samples and I do use the checks for free cans) so obviously that hasn't affected my decision to breastfeed. I have it for emergencies and if someone needs it, I will gladly give them some of my stash. When I mean able to, I mean that there is no medical or psychological issues with her or baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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